Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_awally_ 12-30-06, 08:20 PM	I apologize ahead of time for this bombardment of text but i posted this in character development and didnt get any replies...so i tried here,is it possible to pull off a bad-to-the-bone kind of thing with a pally? i argue with the other players about this, im going for a cool St. Cuthbert paladin who dont take evil or lip from anybody.... so please maybe some opinions on this or tips on how to make this work without breaking my code of conduct would be greatly appreciated, otherwise i am scared it will just come off as cliche like or corny or just plain not work
CryoSilver 12-30-06, 08:21 PM	Ask your DM. It sounds fine to me, as long as you don;t do anything evil.
Stormbrand 12-30-06, 08:32 PM	1) Don't make it about lip too much - harming someone for the sake of pride (read: ego) is evil and chaotic. 2) High stats, giving someone a swift backhand only works if they can't turn on you. 3) Avoid subdual damage when possible. If you were using a crossbow, your version of a warning shot would be to aim for the knees. 4) Go to How to Play a Paladin and ask Timespike. 5) Don't go for lectures, make short, sharp, crisp statements. Sound very definite in everything you say, don't leave anything ambiguous. "Understand this." is an excellent way to begin something when you are annoyed. 6) Don't bluff. Ever. If you threaten to kill someone, that means they are in imminent risk of death. 7) Do not be blinded by anger - stay very controlled. Speak flatly and always think what you will say before you do. Remember formalities and titles, use them when addressing people.
King Bulba 12-30-06, 10:24 PM	Sounds good _awally_. DMs rarely use RAW following alignment so changing things with the paladin to be LN shouldn't be to hard. Truthfully 99% of paladins are LN so its not like its a stretch... The only basic rule is dont commit evil. Paladins always are L and follow the gods will to the end and doesnt think about it themselves hense the LN and not LG imo. Also shows their lack of intelegence since their required to be 6 or less hehe. Says so in my PHB (in handwritting hehe).
Krusk 12-30-06, 10:24 PM	Dump some ranks cross class into intimidate. If you see anyone trying to act up/be evil give them a good stare down. "are you sure you want to steal that?" type questions. Throw some into sense motive and spot as well. "you shouldnt lie to me" "take that out of your pocket and give it back. Now apologize."
DarkRhystar 12-30-06, 10:37 PM	Shadowbane Inquisitor (CAdv) gives the Paladin a license to kill anyone or anything standing between him and the bad guys.
theotherdraxen 12-30-06, 10:48 PM	4) Go to How to Play a Paladin and ask Timespike. Seconded. Whether he wants it or not, Timespike is the foremost authority on playing a paladin well on these boards. Also, check out the Guild of Paladins. Timespike is there as well, along with many other pally fans (myself and Stormbrand included). Edit: Link to the Guild of Paladins (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=746450).
ericSHINRA 12-30-06, 10:56 PM	I apologize ahead of time for this bombardment of text but i posted this in character development and didnt get any replies... It usually takes a 24 hours(on average) to get a few replies in from the regulars in the 'Character Developement' boards. You've got one reply now so just give it some time and you'll get a few quality responses. But yeah, if your DM allows it and you don't do anything to violate your code, I don't see why not.
Tempest Stormwind 12-30-06, 11:24 PM	If the code of conduct's getting in the way of you playing the character you want, be advised that you can play a paladin with no actual levels in Paladin.
Gedrin 12-31-06, 10:45 PM	I'd look at some of the clasic Army Seargent types. You'll have to be a bit more by the book, but that won't keep you from being hard as nails and chewing an old cigar.
DM Zoc 12-31-06, 11:42 PM	I guess it depends mostly on how strict your DM is, but I'd assess myself a faily hefty bonus to resist intimidation if I know you can't make good on your implied threats without breaking your code and losing your abilities. Whenever I play the rogue or the mage, I usually get along fairly well with the paladin, as long as everyone remains polite. If the paladin gets uppity, then I can always resort to making jokes about his lineage knowing full well that he can't touch me. Injuring someone for being discourteous is an evil act.
Darth Sephiroth 01-01-07, 04:14 AM	A friend of mine has been playing a Paladin that he plays as a real bad one, guy rolled almost obscenely well for stats (Three 18's, a 17, and 2 16's) and plays the guy brilliantly. At one point he nearly strangled the party Rogue who had tried to steal something (Yanked the half-orc off the ground by his throat and explained to him why he should return the money bag). Its a semi-amusing situation with my lunatic warforged (near psychotic who thinks he's a paladin for some reason that I have yet to figure out myself) where we both have opposing philosophies on dealing with things, my character believes that open violence and total destruction for whatever reason strikes his fancy opposed to the almost stone cold views of the paladin make for interesting conversations.
Cifer 01-01-07, 03:00 PM	Shadowbane Inquisitor (CAdv) gives the Paladin a license to kill anyone or anything standing between him and the bad guys. ... and the bad guys. And the chaotic guys. And the lawful guys. And the neutral guys. And the good guys he deems not good enough.
CryoSilver 01-01-07, 06:23 PM	Take a look at the Relentless Crusader PrC in my sig, if homebrew is allowed.
Farmer_Tom_Cotton 01-02-07, 12:49 AM	It is tough to be humble enough to protect the innocent and be tough. Best idea I can think of is; start as fighter and pick up a reputation (skill intimidate) then convert to Palidin. Anyone playing for a god's team will be more about the god than being "bad to the bone".
David 01-02-07, 05:44 AM	Check out the system reference doc. for the following variants for paladins: Freedom (CG), Tyranny (LE), Slaughter (CE). I don't know which book they are in though.
_awally_ 01-02-07, 06:57 PM	thanks for all the advice, i've played this certain paladin in my group for over a year now and then we took a break from the game for about 6 months, and coming back from where we last ended it im going to have the paladin start shifting in his motives and personality from "classic" paladin to "bad mojo-like" paladin and the dm has oked that he can become LN and still be a Cuthbert paladin and has joined my DM's campaign specific "council" of cuthbert cleircs and paladins who believe the ends justfy the "semi lawful means" or for the greater good kinda thing, so giving this shift in alignment and hand in the council i would think this would allow me more freedom to do whats "right" uphold the law, protect the innocents, and punish the unjust and evil and maybe smack around the annoying druid in our party( ooh that would be nice), what does everyone think of that? (man i really got to stop typing so much...)
Leo 01-02-07, 08:38 PM	The idea of the paladin it's the ideal of the medieval knights(notice that I said ideal. Ideal like christians's religion doesn't allow them to kill persons, yet plenty of wars were waged in name of god, so so much for the intentions). He's not just a chapion of good. He IS good. He's a selfsacrificing guy who will do everything at it's reach to help people and destroy evil. He's so good it's mere touch is enogh to cure wounds. The lawfull part comes from he being a righteous guy. He doesn't lie. He doesn't cheat. You can always trust a paladin's word. The term "dark paladin" or "chaotic paladin" don't make any chance. The paladin is a warrior that tries to be as good as possible. And last time I checked, being a rebeld, lying and cheating weren't good things, so so much for the chaotic part. Of course, you can make chapions of evil, or jsut law, but please, don't call them paladins. There's already enough consion with names. Like lawfull barbarians. EWSgfngnrsingijaren... A "Barbarian" is a noncivilized person, how the hell someone noncivilized will be lawfull? Of course, the concept of good is somewhat a loose thing. I bet a good speaker could make killing inocent people like being a good act(cough Hitler cough Hitler). That's why you should make clear with your DM what being good is about. Lastly, being a paladin sucks. It's like being a saint. All work and no fun. But you know what? Some people actually like doing good and being responsible waiting no reward for it. That's what being a paladin is about. Also, I don't know if you read it, but in the manual of the planes it says the plane of St Cubhert is slowly sinking into the plane of Mechanus(the True lawfull plane), controled by constructs, because too many of St.Cubhert followers think the ends justify the means. They don't. Not for a paladin.
Shan_TheBabau_Burke 01-04-07, 05:58 PM	That's how they are supposed to be played. A really good paladin takes no crap. The absolute bad --- factor comes in when they don't respond to threats with violence, but guidance. If someone does something that goes against what he feels is right, he rarely resorts to killing because he knows that evil begets evil. If he is a paladin of St. C he is likely to knock them on the head and say something like, "The path to true goodness is only beyond those who die of stupidity first. I advise you to rethink your actions and be more careful in the future." Smarmy paladins are the horrid result of a complete misunderstanding of a paladin and the way he would operate. Think of Dirty Harry. He's a bit too chaotic to be a paladin, but many of his actions could be justified under the paladin's code. Bringing down lawbreakers is his primary concern. He breaks the rules a little too often to be a really good example, but taking a page from his book is a really good way to make a base for a paladin. If he's floating around on fairy wings telling everyone "No no no", all you've done is gone and made Mrs. Cleaver with a sword.
_awally_ 01-05-07, 03:57 PM	bump
SONOFOMG 01-07-07, 04:55 AM	i am also playing a half orc paladin of St cutbert. i bing binged my tusks,and got a platium nose ring. one of the other players in our group, has a book that radiates evil. i mention that we can allway do a book burning:D
CrystalSeraph 01-11-07, 12:31 PM	Bad ass paladins are one of the most fun things in dnd, ever. Pally: "STOP. HAMMER TIME! >:D" Paladins need to be honourable, lawful, well meaning and active participants in the struggle between good and evil. They don't have to be straight-laced or meek: leave that to the cloistered clerics. XD Beyond the Big Rules of Being a Paladin, there is no preclude on badarsery. Have fun ;o
aelryinth 01-11-07, 02:35 PM	Sounds good _awally_. DMs rarely use RAW following alignment so changing things with the paladin to be LN shouldn't be to hard. Truthfully 99% of paladins are LN so its not like its a stretch... The only basic rule is dont commit evil. Paladins always are L and follow the gods will to the end and doesnt think about it themselves hense the LN and not LG imo. Also shows their lack of intelegence since their required to be 6 or less hehe. Says so in my PHB (in handwritting hehe). That's a knight, not a paladin. A paladin will do the right thing over the lawful thing if he must make a choice. You are confusing the stereotypes. Paladins are true blue dyed in the wool hero types. Knights are die for the honor of my king and his faithful servants types. ===Aelryinth
Tiberia 01-11-07, 08:58 PM	Paladin is committed to the cause of Lawful Good and is willing to die to promote the Cause. Anti-Paladin is committed to the cause of Lawful Evil and is willing to die to promote the Cause. If you don't have that level of commitment, be a Fighter. Barabarian or Ranger.
Vengeblade 01-12-07, 07:29 AM	You could try the Grey Guard PrC from complete scoundrel. That's a paladin with the ability to settle some scores on the enemies level.
Krusk 01-14-07, 02:17 AM	I just got the book, and that prestige in paticular was very very cool. And exactly what you are looking for.
rkr1970 01-14-07, 02:59 PM	In order for a paladin to kick butt, he needs to have a more open definition of what he can and can't do. The following article may help. The knight in shining armor, the rescuer of damsels, the defender of the faith. No single class in Dungeons and Dragons conjures a more stereotypical image in the minds of most players than the paladin. He is honorable, just, charitable, and kind, and willing to fight to the death against those that threaten innocent lives. Unfortunately, far too many players see them as a problem because of other, more prejudicial views regarding paladins. They make the whole party act in too law-abiding a manner, they carry out any order from the government or church mindlessly, they rush in to fight evil without thinking, and they usually act superior, haughty, and utterly inflexible. It’s this very viewpoint that causes many players to refuse to play in a group with a paladin or allow a paladin to join their party. Other players, who might normally enjoy playing a paladin, will avoid doing so because of the restrictions a paladin has. One of the greatest fears among such players is the conflict that may arise when forced to choose between upholding justice and preserving life. They don’t want to suffer a fall from grace when faced with a lawfully appointed ruler demanding they perform an evil act. They believe that to refuse the ruler is an act of rebellion worthy of their god’s wraith, but they also know that to agree to such a vile deed goes against every tenet he has sworn himself to. The blame for this rigid behavior, as well as the potentially devastating consequences for not holding to such behavior, almost invariably falls on the paladin’s Lawful Good alignment and his need to fully uphold that alignment or risk the loss of his divinely granted abilities. It seems that if he ever fails to serve the greater good or to uphold the law, he is unworthy and must either atone or live without the abilities he once had. But the real culprit behind this misconception is a lack of understanding in what a paladin’s alignment is meant to portray. It is well known that a paladin has sworn to follow certain guidelines. But what guidelines, and how he prioritizes them, are often determined not only by what god or philosophy he reveres, but often by the particular knightly order of the church or philosophy he belongs to. By their very nature, most paladins are wise enough to understand the potential pitfalls of their oath of service, and not just the conflict between Law versus Good or church versus state, but in all aspects of their future lives. The leaders of the order to which a paladin belongs would almost certainly be wise enough to have found a way to either reduce or avoid the potential for such difficulties. Rather than simply swear to a laundry list of restrictions and duties, many of which have the potential of working at cross-purposes, a series of vows would have been laid down, often referred to generically as a Paladin’s Code, or more specifically by the name of the order to which he belongs, such as The Code of the Knights of the Golden Sword. Each individual part of the Paladin’s Code is a simple vow, usually very brief and to the point, but absolute. These individual vows are then prioritized according to the precepts of the order. For example, an order belonging to the church of Heironeous will place more emphasis on upholding the law that an order dedicated to Pelor. The first such vow is invariably one of absolute obedience to a deity, church, or order, and this vow takes precedent over all other vows. Several other vows follow, often as many as several dozen, depending upon the order. As each vow is made, it is given less force than each of the vows that came before. Thus, while a paladin may have a dozen vows, all of which he must abide by, when forced to choose between two of these vows, if he violates a lesser vow to fulfill a greater vow, he is not considered to have violated his code. Following is a typical Paladin’s Code for a Knight of the Golden Sword, an order within the church of Heironeous. DM’s should feel free to add, remove, or alter the individual vows to fit the church or philosophy the paladin serves, as well as carefully consider in what order each vow is to be placed. 1.) I shall follow without question the orders of Heironeous. 2.) I shall follow without question the orders of Heironeous’ emissaries. 3.) I shall defend the interests of Heironeous with my sword and my life. 4.) I shall follow the dictates of faith as laid down by Heironeous in the scriptures he has provided his faithful. 5.) I shall defend the church of Heironeous with my sword and my life. 6.) I shall follow without question the orders of my superiors in the church of Heironeous. 7.) I shall defend the followers of Heironeous with my sword and my life. 8.) I shall follow without question the orders of my superiors in the Knights of the Golden Sword. 9.) I shall defend the innocent with my sword and my life. 10.) I shall stand against the forces of evil whenever I encounter them. 11.) I shall hold to my given word as I would hold to an oath. 12.) I shall stand against injustice whenever I encounter it. 13.) I shall defend the rightful government with my sword and my life. 14.) I shall provide succor and offer charity to those in need. 15.) I shall follow the laws and dictates of the rightful government. 16.) I shall not knowingly speak an untruth. 17.) I shall uphold the laws of the rightful government. 18.) I shall grant quarter to my foes when I am able. 19.) I shall spread the word and will of Heironeous wherever I may travel. 20.) I shall conduct myself in a manner befitting a Knight of the Golden Sword. Note the very limited scope of each vow, in particular, the first few. Also, pay careful attention to how things are worded. These two aspects are at the heart of the paladin’s code. For example, a Knight of the Golden Sword may lie, cheat, steal, and even cut down his enemies in cold blood if doing so defends the interests of the church, particularly if it is the most expeditious method of serving his order. That’s not to say that he shouldn’t look for other ways to proceed, but there are times when circumstances don’t allow for that luxury. Finally, remember that while a paladin will not lose his holy abilities if he is forced to break a lesser vow to uphold a greater vow, he still should feel a need to atone later for having done so. It may be as simple as going back and paying an innkeeper for a horse the paladin stole during the pursuit of a wanted criminal or it could be something more severe, like extra tithes, self-flagellation, or community service. Whether set by the paladin himself or his superiors, it should always serve to discourage future such transgressions, especially for the breaking of greater vows. This is something I've been working on for a while. It's not quite done, but should give you an idea of how to add some grit to your pally. By clearly defining what behavior he MUST follow, you can also define what behavior he can get away with. Work with your DM to come up with an order of paladin with only the most basic vows and you can do all kinds of things. For example, if he swears to follow the law, but never swears to uphold it, he could stand watch while the party rogue picks locks. Maybe his order has him swear to "defend the lives of the faithful", but that doesn't stop him from beating the crap out of some wife beater, particularly if he has also sworn to "defend the innocent". Play around with a set of vows and see what loopholes you can leave yourself. Just remeber to work as hard as you can to stick to those vows!
_awally_ 01-14-07, 03:39 PM	alright thanks for the nice ideas and advice everyone and opinions on the paladin's code and ideals, keep it coming! the idea of writing out vows to uphold seems like a really great idea rkr1970, also what is this Grey Guard thing this seems to be right up my paladin's alley since he is color blind in one eye to where he sees like a ol' black and white movie...
Azar_of_Faerun 01-14-07, 05:34 PM	Reasons why Paladins are disliked (in my opinion) They come from an age of D&D where it was Good guys vs Bad guys, with no mistaking intent, no "BUT HE'S A JUST MISUNDERSTOOD BABY KILLER" and that was that. Nowadays, "dark heroes" and those with copious amounts of corruption and flaws are favored, so the "staid defender of the weak and beacon of hope" is just too bland for them. Or, they can't hope to live up to the Paladin ideal and are upset deep down the concept of a class mostly free from earthly (or diabolical) desires exists. Ironically most would consider magic within their reach and not this level of piety. :P
_awally_ 01-18-07, 08:06 PM	bump
Stormbrand 01-19-07, 10:34 PM	Key phrase - Just being human doesn't get a monster off the hook.