Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bolaneer 11-27-06, 01:55 AM	I feel like lately I've been a bad player. I have a terrible time familiarizing myself with the numerous supplements for D&D and seem to make bad character development decisions. I am constantly being told that the way I build PCs is backhanded and left with tough disadvantages...like the time I built a Halfling Monk...I just went about it all wrong. That of course is just one example. I don't want to always have the other players build me up just so I can be a twink, or just a good set of stats. I want to have fun and enjoy what I have created. I think I just have organization problems or something...can anyone help. ~Bolaneer
kelvinaw273 11-27-06, 05:04 AM	This is not being a bad player, it is having poor understanding of the rules interactions and organising your characters poorly. Being a Bad Player is holding up the game, bullying other players, dictating to the DM, building over-optimised characters (usually by cheating) and generally making everyone;'s life miserable. For example your halfling monk could have taken Ascetic Rogue feat and been an excelent monk/rogue if that is what you envisaged.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-27-06, 10:46 AM	I'm surprised that non of the 'suck' arguments have popped up yet. Well lets have a go at her and see what we can come up with. I personally feel that inter party balance is the responciblity of everyone at the table. Sometimes that means the DM disallowing somet hings, other times it means player sacrificing some aspect of their "perfect" concept, for a more partical approach. Just as playing pun-pun will disrupt the game, as will playing johny the delapated peg legged, one armed farting kid. It is in this manner that I say what what I'm about to say. If your character is underpowered to the point that it is disrupting the fun of the other players, then you are being a 'bad player'. And what you are doing is just as wrong as would be playing a campaiogn smasher from the character optimization boards. Now the question come down to intent. Did you willfully intent to play a chaarcter that you knew would be serverly underpowered compared to your group? Did you know that this would disrupt the fun the fun of the other players, and yet choose the underpowered character anyways? Do you believe that you have to intentional choose sub optimal feats, races and classes, in order to make a role playing character? The the over all answaer to the above is yes. Then your problem lies with your play style. It is incompatable with your group. I sujest either changing, or finding a group that better suits your style of play. If the answaer is no then it is a porblem of poor optimization skills. If that is the case, then asking the other players for advice is probally the right course for you. Just be sure to explain to them what your concept is, and what you want from your character. But listen to the mechanical advice that they are giving you. they are experts on the relative power level of the group. There is more fun with a balanced party then with an imbalanced party. There is no shame in not being the best optimizer in the group. There is if you insist on not getting help when it is needed.
Red Viper 11-27-06, 04:43 PM	I see D&D as a role playing game, and that does not mean you have to be the best in combat, and be twinked out just because the rest of your group chooses to play their characters that way. If you are in it for the roleplaying and have a character concept and running with it, even if you are not the most powerful then that is just fine. Keep playing the characters that you enjoy playing. Too many people think that they need to optimize a chatracter solely for combat. I don't think that those people fully understand what the game is about, but that is how they choose to play and I say let them if that is what makes them happy.
Bolaneer 11-27-06, 10:38 PM	Okay, here's the thing. the other players are more than happy to hand ou advice, I just don't like getting hacked because I never hit anything or choose not to prestige at the earliest possible level. I miss when roleplay was what it was about. Now a lot of kids I know that used to play D&D call it a combat simulator, and nothing more. And furthermore when I DM scenarios, they love the stories that are told through our roleplay but complain because i am not good with running combat ecounters, even when the fights are worth a good retelling. I am confused, and don't want to stop playing, but I fear my lack in organization is going to forever make me a bard or cleric for the sake of aiding the party while remaining nearly as useless as always in combat. I never intend to make a bad PC, if that were the case I simply would not play.
pita 11-28-06, 02:41 AM	My organizational skills resemble that of a parakeet. I also enjoy roleplaying games a lot more than roll playing. What do I do? A) I have house ruled some things to make combat go easier. No defensive casting, preparing actions, and many other small changes. B) My games are 90% diplomacy. My characters do not have Fight or Flight. They have Fight or Talk. Sure, there's the occasional dungeon crawl where I send them against an ogre spiked chain fighter just to have fun with being DM, but most of it is diplomacy. I also tend to adopt this attitude when playing, which annoys the rollplayer in the group when he DMs, but it's all fun. C) Talk to your friends, explain that you think the game should be about roleplaying to you, and that you like having a world spanning plot that only works as long has the king is a half blind elf. Let them show you how to run battles. BTW-A cleric is the strongest class there is other than druid, and is better than a fighter at fighting. Hope I helped At least I wrote a lot.
Bolaneer 11-28-06, 03:16 AM	sounds like a good start, I just feel like every once in a while it would be neat if I came up with something that works so nice that I might actually get a little bit of feedback about it that isn't negative. For instance, I have a new PC idea that I feel pretty good about, but am not sure how to assign feats on him. I have chosen a Changeling. I want him to start out with the changeling rogue variant classes for three levels. This will grant him social intuition in place of trapfinding, and starting skill points are 10+Int mod. x4. Nice way to begin. The social intuition is what cauht my eye though, because I want a PC who wishes to manipulate/control the field of battle strategy wise. Which is why I then have decided to take about six levels of beguiler, to allow me the enchant and illusory spells I will need to confound our enemies, and get them where we want them. I then liked the thought that I could use an enemy in our favor, and looked into the MindBender prestige class, so now I have sneak attack melee, sneak attack-like spells, mind affecting spells, and control over persons on the field of battle. Plus, from a role playing aspect, the ability to disguise myself with a skill level that few others could match, and the ability to persuade our way through when we cannot or wish not to fight, and the sense motive hocked nice and high so that I have a feel of what everyone is thinking before they make any brash decisions. What do you guys think? this may be my most interesting PC yet.
pita 11-28-06, 03:51 AM	Wow.. This is exactly like Daelan, one of my former changeling characters. Just he was a warrior type. But I like! EDIT- Where are the variant rogue levels? Oh, my DM will hate me.
Boshi 11-28-06, 04:02 AM	so now I have sneak attack melee, sneak attack-like spells, mind affecting spells, and control over persons on the field of battle. From a mechanical standpoint you're spreading yourself waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too thin. If you're a bit fuzzy on the rules don't do something creative, just do something straightfoward that's hard to screw up like a straight beguiler or a striaght rogue.
Sphyre 11-28-06, 04:08 AM	This is not being a bad player, it is having poor understanding of the rules interactions and organising your characters poorly. Being a Bad Player is holding up the game, bullying other players, dictating to the DM, building over-optimised characters (usually by cheating) and generally making everyone;'s life miserable. I concur. In my current campaign, I've had 5 different players, currently at 3 at the moment. 3 of them were new to D&D. Of the three I have left, one was an experienced player and the other two were new players. One of those expenieced players that was gone was managable, but borderline annoying, he got a job that conflicted with the time of our game so he was no longer playing. The other I actually kicked from the group because he was taking all the fun out of the game for me, by specifically plotting to annoy me (which yes, not only did I know it was specifically to annoy me, but I caught him telling another player that he was planning on doing something to specifically annoy me in the future too) How well you know the rules have very little to do with how good of a player you are. How well you get along with people goes a lot longer way. You can always learn and ask for help in making your characters, but those who don't want to play a cooperative group game I don't have much hope for.
Bolaneer 11-28-06, 10:57 AM	In what way am I spreading too thin? If I recall, the prestige was nearly a continuation of beguiler specializing an the same basic direction, with slightly slower spell progression. The reason behind to rogue evels in the beginning (Races of Eberron) is because i want to the character to know what he needs to to blend in where he typically does not belong. The beguiler I liked because it would show his interest in magic, and that he could use it to enhance what he is already doing, and even be more useful on the battlefield, and less apt to try to do things by himself. Mindbender levels are what will allow me to temporarily (or permanently make an enemy into an ally, even during battle. Which always reads party advantage to me. I am not sure where I am thinning out?? HP? BAB?
Boshi 11-28-06, 11:42 AM	In what way am I spreading too thin? Caster level. Beguiler/mindbender is a fun combo (and decent enough mechanics-wise). But if you add in rogue levels that combined with the partial caster advancement of the PrC makes you magic very weak for your level. I'd recommend either going straight rogue (with maybe a non-caster PrC) or a beguiler/mindbender with zero rogue levels and nothing else that doesn't advance caster level.
Bolaneer 11-28-06, 12:09 PM	I will finish drawimg up a rough draft of this PC, and post it up here so you can see what I'm doing...hopefully I can put it up tonight after work. I'll also try to figure out my PC concepts for a few others I'm working on, hopefully you guys can help me figure some things out.