Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lunarpaladin 09-11-05, 12:17 PM	I was wondering, what do you guys do when you're faced with somebody who can't roleplay in your group? As in, at all? Problem is that I have a friend whose girlfriend has been playing in our group for a few years now, and I came to the realization (I guess I didn't JUST come to it, but I've come to face the truth about what I've known for a long time), after last night's session, that she's just a really, REALLY bad RPer. My DM assigned personality traits and everything for our characters, so following my character's personality profile, I ended up getting into a situation where I was killed, at which point she decides to throw her two cents in where it doesn't belong and start criticising my poor judgement and getting killed on my lack of ability to play, since evidently metagaming is the proper way of playing. She claims to be really into RP games and everything else, like Final Fantasy, which, as great a game as it is, and as much as it's called a "role playing game," you really don't have any hand in character development or growth. Everything is more or less spoon-fed to you - all you generally have to do is get XP and beat bosses and the like. Problem is that I have no idea how to broach the subject with anybody in the game. Her boyfriend is one of my best friends, and has been for years...however, he's the one who first introduced her to our group, and I'm worried that were it her first month or so, my opinion would probably be considered more than it is at the 3 year mark. I had this inclination about her ability the first few times we played, but I tried to chalk it up to her being a beginner and gave her room to develop and grow, which has just never happened. Last night, her character (who hardly even knows my character - they've worked on ONE quest together, and really were only brought together for the sake of the spoils) came to my character's house, and upon finding he wasn't home, decided to let herself INTO my house, sit there, and wait for me to get home. Upon returning home, my character got quite angry - not only with her character, but the fact that her character brought her friend into my house (played by a newcomer to our group). She started arguing out of character, demanding to know why my character was such an ass to her character, and I pointed out that any dwarf would be angry with an elf he barely knows inviting herself into his home and then refusing a) to explain her presence, b) to leave, and c) to even tell me who this other person he hadn't even met was, and what they were doing in his house. The only reason I tried to take it easy on them is because of, as I stated, the newcomer. Looking back on it, my characters have consistently a) killed her, b) had her arrested, and c) just left on their own side-quests without her (which, granted, makes it much harder for the DM, but hey, if I were my character, I wouldn't stick around either). I've yet to make a character that got along with hers because she's just such a bad RPer. I tried making a paladin in the hopes that he'd get along with her character, but he ended up arresting her because she decided to start a fight in the tavern with somebody that bumped into her, got completely belligerent with the barkeep, and refused to leave upon being asked, and then demanded of. Oh, this whiz of a character was lawful good, by the way, and ended up being executed later in the session. Her characters always follow one pattern of play, regardless of personality profile, alignment, race, or class. She only has one temperment in the game, and despite the DM and my efforts (I'm the one he collaborates on campaigns and things with, since I can generally keep my head in-game and forget about what I know OOC), such as pre-made/randomized characters and alignments, XP/humanity (he has a house rule regarding that) penalties, etc. but she just doesn't follow. Her characters are inconsistent at best - anything from a militant paladin to a wishy-washy chaotic evil sorceress, and she's really a detriment to anybody trying to get into the game or the story. One minute her character will be all in-your-face, and the next, she's falling all over herself apologizing. She doesn't know how checks or anything else work either...I've rolled checks to intimidate her character, and she'll fail her check, but she'll still stand toe-to-toe with my characters, despite the fact that both I and the DM try to point out to her that she failed, she will continue to do things like this because she knows OOC that I'm a lower level than she is. She consistently uses her knowledge of other people's character sheets to determine her actions or judgement...my DM friend agrees with me, but I don't know how to say anything to the rest of the group, or to my friend who is just happy he has a girlfriend that "shares his interests". I suppose that toward the end, this question became more of a rant, but given the situation, what would you do? :confused:
ridiculous 09-11-05, 12:24 PM	Seems like you don't want to leave the group and you can't make her leave the group... here are your options: Speak to her If it fails, speak to her again
Jagyr Ebonwood 09-11-05, 12:27 PM	...I've rolled checks to intimidate her character, and she'll fail her check, but she'll still stand toe-to-toe with my characters, despite the fact that both I and the DM try to point out to her that she failed, she will continue to do things like this because she knows OOC that I'm a lower level than she is. You can't intimidate another PC. The other player always decides the actions of his/her character (magical compulsions aside). This area isn't meant for skill checks, it's meant for (unfortunately) role-playing. Try to make her see the distinction between in-game and out-of-game...not only the difference between what her character knows and what she knows, but the difference between a PC-PC relationship and a Player-Player relationship. As in, just because we're friends around the table, doesn't mean my character is going to be friendly to your character no matter what.
Norhg 09-11-05, 12:32 PM	Muahahaha, I laugh at your pain! But note: never use social skills against other players. That is just bad judgement. Never assume that they will have any special effect against them either. With social skills I mean the 'influence attitude' of intimidate and diplomacy. It is flat out stated that these skills never have any effect against PCs in any way other than cosmetic ones. So you are fed up with her? Please, chill. She commented on you getting killed for nothing. A smug "yeah, but my character would have done it" would have been enough. Would she have argued against that? Smug remark to the dm "hey, do you prefer if we play our characters or metagame?" You know, you'll have to suck it down. She has been with you for three years. At best you can try to be a little nicer to her 'out of game' as I understand that as a problem. Why? She whines about how you treat her in-game out of game. Because you know, if you are good friends and she understands that everything that is done in game is because and only because of what your character thinks. She apparently has problems with understanding that. Give her some pointers.
lunarpaladin 09-11-05, 12:37 PM	They're a house rule, that's why I referred to them as checks to intimidate rather than Intimidation Checks. :D But yeah, I can see already that they're bad, since it seems to really set the contrast between good and bad RPers. :p
Norhg 09-11-05, 01:01 PM	But yeah, I can see already that they're bad, since it seems to really set the contrast between good and bad RPers. :p Mhm... "I made the check, you are playing it out wrong!"... tsk tsk.
lunarpaladin 09-11-05, 01:41 PM	Muahahaha, I laugh at your pain! But note: never use social skills against other players. That is just bad judgement. Never assume that they will have any special effect against them either. With social skills I mean the 'influence attitude' of intimidate and diplomacy. It is flat out stated that these skills never have any effect against PCs in any way other than cosmetic ones. So you are fed up with her? Please, chill. She commented on you getting killed for nothing. A smug "yeah, but my character would have done it" would have been enough. Would she have argued against that? Smug remark to the dm "hey, do you prefer if we play or characters or metagame?" You know, you'll have to suck it down. She has been with you for three years. At best you can try to be a little nicer to her 'out of game' as I understand that as a problem. Why? She whines about how you treat her in-game out of game. Because you know, if you are good friends and she understands that everything that is done in game is because and only because of what your character things. She apparently has problems with understanding that. Give her some pointers. I guess this comes into a part of my post which I left out because I thought it was lengthy enough as is, but now that I look back on it, it's a pretty important one. LOL She and I have been friends for years. I guess I've just not said anything because our group are all her friends, and I don't want to alienate her from that. I really don't want my post to come across as consistent anger and rage toward her, as I said, it was strictly venting...but seriously, I don't know what to say to her.
lunarpaladin 09-11-05, 01:44 PM	Mhm... "I made the check, you are playing it out wrong!"... tsk tsk. I can see where you're coming from completely...the reason we started checks for these things was to try and encourage roleplaying, because generally I'm the only one who tries to do a serious job of it. I'm not going to tell people how to play things out, but I mean, come on. At least do something other than sit there and say, "Uhh, okay. And?" with an expectant look on your face OOC as though I'm supposed to do the roleplaying for both of us. Which, while on the topic, you could certainly throw some pointers out about that too. :p
lordgeek22 09-12-05, 01:38 AM	From what it appears to me, the problems are: 1) The concept of In-Game and Out-Of-Game relations 2) Her RPing to alignment and character It will always be touchy when it comes to relations In-Game and Out-Of-Game. In my experience I have always found it easier to place emphasis on playing In-Character and avoiding metagame thinking, which to me to be what's going on underneath the problem. Now this doesn't always solve the problem but at least you have made an effort to state that fact up front so everyone knows. You may want to talk to your DM about that. Confrontation out-of game can be devastating to the game and group so you hesitation is not unrealistic. Secondly, Her "inability" to roleplay is not uncommon. I have seen many players, who have years of experience playing, having difficulty playing In-Character. I have had difficulty myself. It is a concept that some grasp immediately, and for others a constant struggle. I wish I could say that there was an easy solution to the problem. Like I said above, have your DM try place more emphasis in playing In-Character. At least, from the situation of her entering your house as you have said in your post, you are doing exactly what I would do. Play it as your character would react and hope that she would understand the reasoning behind your RPing. I have to agree that making Intimidate Checks against PC's in problematic at best because when you do that, you start to delve into the realm of forcing PC actions. Now don't feel bad, my DM wanted to try that but when he thought about it he realized that putting emphasis on playing In-Character was much more simple. Best of luck with dealing with the situation.
High Octane 09-12-05, 04:44 AM	Talk to her boyfriend. Ask him to "help her out." Explain that D&D has in game consequences and that unlike Final fantasy, you cant walk up to strangers, click a button, and get information. You also dont find treasure chests everywhere with magic potions in them that you can take free of charge. And you cant carry 99 potions and 99 antidotes, and 99 of about 38 other potion types without being encumbered. Ive said before that Final Fantasy is roleplaying like Soul Calibur is sword fighting. You're not actually doing it, you're telling someone else to do it by pushing buttons. D&D is a game like that sometimes, when it comes to combat and such, but it is more often like acting. When acting, you get to be someone else, but you have to play by the rules, keep your real self separated from your character, and above all, respect your fellow actors/players and work WITH them. Next time you make a new character, ask the DM to do you a favor. Ask him to have her make her character first, and you make up a character who would specifically favor her character above the rest of the party. Sort of force your characters to interact on a nice level instead of being at each others throats. Even have your characters conspire against the rest of them if it will help you two connect. Of course, mention this to her boyfriend beforehand and tell him to NOT tell her (So he doesnt suspect you of trying to steal her or something. Just a precaution.). If he still does tell her, kick his ass so he learns: Bros before Hoes. By the way, I LOVE Final Fantasy (Up until X, then it just got sad) and enjoy Soul Calibur. I just don't disillusion myself that they teach anything beyond button pushing and tell a good story in the former's case.
Rathje 09-12-05, 06:38 PM	You could always try to dissolve that group and form a new one with more selective members. You can be friends with people you don't role-play with. Try to explain that to her if she finds out and complains.
UltimateReality 09-13-05, 06:58 PM	Bros before Hoes. While I don't think the OP states how long the couple's been dating, if it's anything approaching the length of time she's been playing with them, I highly doubt she qualifies as a "hoe". Sorry. That expression pisses me off. How about..."Chicks before dicks"? I like that one. :rolleyes: *shakehead* This whole gender animosity crap is stupid; people are people, date the smart ones who have personalities and ignore the rest as much as you can. If your bros come before your hos (or your chicks before your dicks), then you really aren't ready to have anything more than a casual relationship anyway. This seems to be a symptom of mostly high schoolers and freshmen in my area. (Not to say there aren't emotionally/relationship-wise immature people beyond those years, but they aren't as common.) I'm not saying being in that highschool stage is a bad thing, but most of us do eventually grow out of it and settle down somewhat. Also note: this is not a slam against those of you who enjoy casual relationships in a mature manner! However, referring to your partner(s) as "hos" and the like doesn't show a lot of respect for them and, by inference, yourself. </rant> To the OP: I would mention my concerns to the gf, her bf if I felt he would open to hear such things about his gf, and the DM. Alternatively, let's face it, some people are just TERRIBLE at roleplaying -- not disruptive, like she's being, but flat out unable to play anything other than themselves. These people you just kind of have to wince and suffer through, or else find another group.
SodaGuy 09-13-05, 07:11 PM	She sounds like a ***** and a crybaby.
Solik 09-13-05, 07:22 PM	So, have you guys just kept playing as you have from day 1 and expected her to magically get it, or has there been serious effort -- apart from arguing around the table -- in helping her understand how it's all supposed to work? These boards, and several sourcebooks, are chock full of articles and commentary on how to roleplay, how to avoid metagaming, the differences between players and characters, and so forth. Find some of the best ones you can find, and offer them to her. Delivery is important, so make sure you put a helpful guise on it -- you're not doing it because she's a screw-up, you're doing it so she can play better. To help there, you might want to suggest that everybody at the table read those things. If you can get the DM behind you before-hand, they might all take it seriously. Try some actual coaching sessions. Rather than going in and playing a normal game, work with the DM to set up a game specifically designed to deal with this issue. Play it slow, and every time anyone at the table makes a mistake in these regards, pause the game and explain what they did wrong. You might be surprised how quickly people learn when they're exposed to the right teaching mechanism. You might have to try a bunch of different things before you get the one that "clicks," but I suspect there's a way to help her (and others) "get it." Your only problem will be if she gets it and rejects it because she doesn't like it. That is going to lead to problems, possibly forcing you to metagame your interactions with her characters just to keep things moving. Remember, it's all about having fun, and she shouldn't have less fun with her style of play so that you can have more fun with your style of play. You may end up playing give-and-take. Considering all the bad things you've done to her characters in the past, I suspect you're rather due for a lot of giving.
High Octane 09-13-05, 08:30 PM	Sorry. That expression pisses me off. How about..."Chicks before dicks"? Why not? :P Don't be so sensitive, I was kidding around. If you think I would seriously say THAT as advice by itself you seriously doubt my ability to be mature and helpful. I mean, have I ever on this board been immature (Aside from when I joke around which is obvious) Don't be offended by stupid things guys say because pretty much everything guys say is pretty stupid.
20goingon1232 09-13-05, 09:32 PM	To the OP. What do the other party members say about her? Are they annoyed with her, or do they think that it is acceptable? For example, I have a standing rule in my games: I don't care how you do it, metagame if you have to, but your characters WILL work together. If not, the odd one out will be severely punished. By me.
UltimateReality 09-13-05, 10:05 PM	Why not? :PCuz it sounds silly and doesn't use a quite-offensive enough term for males. :P (Ever notice how's there's about half a dozen nasty terms you can call a chick, but only, like, two or maybe three you commonly call a guy?) Don't be so sensitive, I was kidding around. If you think I would seriously say THAT as advice by itself you seriously doubt my ability to be mature and helpful. I mean, have I ever on this board been immature (Aside from when I joke around which is obvious)Oh no, I'm not trying to slight you at all. I know your postings and agree with them almost as much as it's humanly possible to agree with someone who isn't yourself. ;) I just take great offense to that particular phrase. :twitch: As soon as you're referring to your partners as "put cash in, get sex out", there's a problem. (What's worse is I've seen relationships that actually operate like this. Prostitution does not just occur on the street. Both parties are badly abusing themselves and each other.) Then again, I take exception to a lot of "common" Western societal ideas and practises, which goes along with the whole "I'm a geek who has strange hobbies and likes weird things" profile. ;) Don't be offended by stupid things guys say because pretty much everything guys say is pretty stupid.LOL, I've found some pretty good ones that don't spew forth more blondeness than I do. :D (Not that someone who's met me f2f will say is hard!)
JD 09-14-05, 05:17 AM	Cuz it sounds silly and doesn't use a quite-offensive enough term for males. :P (Ever notice how's there's about half a dozen nasty terms you can call a chick, but only, like, two or maybe three you commonly call a guy?) Gosh, you should spend some time in Britain. Not only is our swearing system extremely varied, it also has pretty effective guidelines.
UltimateReality 09-14-05, 03:21 PM	Gosh, you should spend some time in Britain. Not only is our swearing system extremely varied, it also has pretty effective guidelines. I know; I've had a couple British (and Irish) friends. I loved listening to them talk and swear. :love: Unfortunately, I haven't seen any of them for a couple years, so I'll have to go refresh my memory... ;)
MSW 09-16-05, 05:34 PM	One backdoor method that might work is to take the Leadership feat and get yourself a female cohort. Talk it over with your DM so he realizes that the whole sum reason you want the cohort is to teach his girlfriend how to be a better role player, that way he will be in the know. Then when the cohort is introduced to the campaign, the DM can declare that he doesn't want you to directly run two characters, so he will let his girl friend role play the cohort, retaining veto rights for both him (as DM) and you (as the Leadership character) over the cohort's actions. Now the two (you and the DM) can work together using the cohort character as a teaching tool. When the player role plays the cohort as exactly the same way as her regular character, you and/or the DM can point it out to her. Because she's role playing two characters, she will be forced into changing her role playing style to make the two characters distinctly different. And if she does something out of character for the cohort (Oh, she would never be rude enough to go inside the house of someone she barely knows and thinks it's okay. This isn't your *other* character after all, it's a lower level cohort) you and/or the DM can correct her. Role playing is basically improv acting and impressions. Not everyone is gifted and does a great job without practice and instruction. Maybe this would be one way to do that for the DM's girl friend. If she's played for 3 years, she's definately wanting to do well. It doesn't have to be the Leadership feat, she could just play a NPC that is somehow tied to your character as well. (younger sister perhaps?) I think the tie in is important however, because it will empower you to help correct the DM's girl friend and help teach her how to be a better role player. Without the tie in, you'd be a little out of place telling her what to do, or what she's doing wrong, and it sounds like the DM alone hasn't been up to the task. Talk it over with your DM. I'm sure he's be receptive to the idea if you approach the subject right.
High Octane 09-17-05, 03:10 AM	One backdoor method that might work is to take the Leadership feat and get yourself a female cohort. Talk it over with your DM so he realizes that the whole sum reason you want the cohort is to teach his girlfriend how to be a better role player, that way he will be in the know. Then when the cohort is introduced to the campaign, the DM can declare that he doesn't want you to directly run two characters, so he will let his girl friend role play the cohort, retaining veto rights for both him (as DM) and you (as the Leadership character) over the cohort's actions. Now the two (you and the DM) can work together using the cohort character as a teaching tool. When the player role plays the cohort as exactly the same way as her regular character, you and/or the DM can point it out to her. Because she's role playing two characters, she will be forced into changing her role playing style to make the two characters distinctly different. And if she does something out of character for the cohort (Oh, she would never be rude enough to go inside the house of someone she barely knows and thinks it's okay. This isn't your *other* character after all, it's a lower level cohort) you and/or the DM can correct her. Role playing is basically improv acting and impressions. Not everyone is gifted and does a great job without practice and instruction. Maybe this would be one way to do that for the DM's girl friend. If she's played for 3 years, she's definately wanting to do well. It doesn't have to be the Leadership feat, she could just play a NPC that is somehow tied to your character as well. (younger sister perhaps?) I think the tie in is important however, because it will empower you to help correct the DM's girl friend and help teach her how to be a better role player. Without the tie in, you'd be a little out of place telling her what to do, or what she's doing wrong, and it sounds like the DM alone hasn't been up to the task. Talk it over with your DM. I'm sure he's be receptive to the idea if you approach the subject right. Boiled down this is saying "Let her play two different characters at once so she can get a feel for separation of personal and character... erm...'characteristics'", which I think is a fine idea in theory, and may work in reality in this case, but I play a campaign which players have 2 characters. Its very hard to think about both and I admit I tend to play one more than the other (favorite character and all). Instead why don't you suggest allowing the player to play another character and give the first character some time off. Be sure to have her play a much different character. Don't kill or make any character unplayable, just have them be called off on family business or some other idea. And remember, the only way to learn how to roleplay is to keep doing it.
Lana "Silvertongue" 09-18-05, 02:26 AM	Boiled down this is saying "Let her play two different characters at once so she can get a feel for separation of personal and character... erm...'characteristics'" which I think is a fine idea in theory, and may work in reality in this case, but I play a campaign which players have 2 characters. Its very hard to think about both and I admit I tend to play one more than the other (favorite character and all). Instead why don't you suggest allowing the player to play another character and give the first character some time off. Be sure to have her play a much different character. Don't kill or make any character unplayable, just have them be called off on family business or some other idea. And remember, the only way to learn how to roleplay is to keep doing it. Whoa, here may be the problem. Roleplaying a character is already extreamly difficult. An it may be even more difficult for a girl to do than a guy due to our unique thinking patterns. I cannot speak for my entire gender, but when I sit down with my characters I normally have about 30 different things I want to accomplish with her via her real goals, her personality and storyline.. My characters are not great... I am not the greatest roleplayer and my characters are not the most fleshed out beings as I want them to be but in my head I know how I want that one single character to 'feel' to me. My biggest problem may be the oration and hers may be the same, getting what she wants both characters to do, think, say and feel must be a nightmare. Try this, or atleast ask your DM if he is willing to start off at level 1. Develope a personality and give her blank paper to note and choose her quirks (normally 3) and a few things she knows about (I.E basic tactics and perhaps feline ecology and goblin society) and give her the skills that she knows to reflect that... then run a campaign... everything that doesn't fit her known knowledge type the DM needs to ask her this exact line (especially if she doesn't pass a knowledge check) "How would your character know that?" Once she learns that characters at level 3 may not know how to kill an ogre without research, she might get the metagame vs. ingame concept... The key thing is the DM enforcing the difference between player knowledge and character knowledge.
AtomicPope 09-18-05, 03:23 AM	1st - The last person you should talk to is her boyfriend. I don't care how long you've been friends, last person - period. You're more likely to cause more problems talking to him than you would talking to her. It's just a stupid guy thing, but it's worse with gamer guys since they tend to be geeks. 2nd - I'd talk to the other players to see what they think before I said what I think. Subterfuge is key here. How do you know it's just not you? I know plenty of players that think role playing is showing up every session but it doesn't mean they're bad company. The problem with most "role-playing couples" is both of them tend to suck at role playing when the other is around. But how badly do they suck? Does it really drag the game down? Finally - After you've chatted with the gamers and given them your opinion, then be frank with the DM about it. If the DM doesn't see any problem and it still bugs you, take a break for a few sessions. Come back and try it again. Sometimes you need a vacation from another person's annoying personality. If the issue is inconsolable then maybe you should jump ship and find another group.
MSW 09-19-05, 02:54 PM	I understand where AtomicPope (great handle btw) is coming from with the "don't talk to the boyfriend" advice. However if you can't approach or talk to the DM, even about his girl-friend player's character or helping to improve her role-playing skills, then there is a larger issue there. In that case you might be better to just skip to the final step and find a new group. Even quietly talking to the other players is likely to cause hard feelings in that case. Better to just bow out with a plausable, neutral excuse and find a different game to avoid hurt feelings.
likerpgs 09-20-05, 04:14 PM	I have a friend who learned D&D at the same time I did, that was way back in the 1970s with AD&D (1E), so we are talking about 25+ years. Since then, both of us have had many game sessions with over 30+ different GMs (no GM has been able to a year before giving up) and both of us have also GM'd as well. He loves to play evil, he only plays male characters, he loves to have the biggest damage spell, weapon, etc, he loves to play the betrayer, he loves to play the marauder, he loves to slaughter anyone, he loves to claim treasure w/o lending a hand, etc. No matter what class or race he chooses to play, the above personality is the same in every character. You would think people after the first 5 yrs would know how to play something other than the same personality. Most players tend to improve their RP muscle to be versatile in playing different people and genders but some dont. These sorts of one-personality character players dont roleplay as they should, they roleplay so they can vent out their innermost issues... In my friend's case...he is angry and want to vent out on people in real-life but he cant so he RPs it. In his eyes, D&D is a medium to roleplay personal issues not to have fun.
Salla 09-20-05, 06:42 PM	I don't know if I'd call him a non-roleplayer, but he does suffer from 'same character different game' syndrom very much. Regardless of the genre, setting, level, or game system, his characters are blustering thugs who strut and preen until they take a hit or see something that's actually frightening, then they're cowards. I've generally come to the conclusion that he doesn't really *want* to roleplay. He wants to play vapid action heroes (he thought Van Helsing and Aliens vs Predator were great movies because they had cool weapons and lots of explosions/violence) who just spout oneliners and have no real personality. If that's what lets him have fun, then let him, so long as he doesn't interfere with everybody else's fun.
devinmdp 09-20-05, 06:57 PM	A few tidbits I noticed. 1. I was taken aback that your DM assigned personality traits to the PCs. It seems that maybe this woman has her own ideas of what she wants to play and how to play it and your DM is instead trying to dictate her roleplaying style to her. 2. As noted, rolling checks against PCs? That actually takes away from roleplaying by forcing you to act on the whim of the dice! 3. You admitted your PCs have essentially harrassed her time and time again. Yet you wonder why SHE is being difficult? Frankly, I sense this problem is mutual, and that it takes two to tango. There are indicators from your original post that tell me so. It seems to me you are somewhat fixating on her. Maybe there are out of game issues going on here? I suggest you simply stop worrying so much about her and let her play her own character and ease up a bit. Devin