Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ck2001wendt 10-31-04, 09:44 AM	So I'm a player in a "rotating DM" campaign. The first DM did a good job. Pretty standard "Dragon/Evil Necromancer/Volcano Lair" type adventure. Well put together. It's the new DM I'm worried about. He's said he wants to DM in the style of Grant Morrisson and Warren Ellis (Big Ideas and Loud Noises). And I can respect that, because I said the same thing when pitching my own campaign a year and a half ago. We've had two sessions now. My conclusion: He's either a Genius, or he's going to kill us all. Some examples: 1. Within 10 minutes of DMing, "the party is sitting around a room in the inn. The next thing you know the lights grow DIM (a la a 1980s Nintendo game) and suddenly a masked figure is standing in the room." It's Manshoon. He blathers on a bit about conversations he couldn't have any knowledge of, then he teleports us halfway around the world. No Save. No Passive Spellcraft check (which is a bad sign, because it means the DM doesn't know what sort of effect he's trying to mimic). The session ends. 2. We end up on the Faerunian equivalent of Australia. Within five minutes: DM: "Okay, Wizard (I'm the Wizard), you try and teleport." ME: "No I don't." DM: "Go ahead. Just try." ME: "No, I don't want to! We're easily over a thousand miles from the nearest landmass. What's the point!" DM: "Okay, but just try it." ME: "FINE! I try to teleport." DM: "Okay. You try to teleport, and it fails. Make a Will Save." Me (rolls): "28" DM: "Okay, you made it. A bolt of lightning comes down from the heavens, and narrowly misses you." (WHAT THE F***!) I later declared this conversation took place after we were told an evil force was moving toward a town 80 miles away...so it would at least make sense that I'd be trying to teleport somewhere. 3. We soon meet the stragglers of an attack by said evil force. Their first words, when they see the DMPC: "Your Highness?" That's right...the DMPC is royalty. 4. All three encounters we've had started out less than 50 feet away, because "by the time you can react, they're upon you." (Never mind that we were on open plains, or that in one of the encounters we saw a group of Wyrvens in the distance, and by the time we could react they were 'upon us.') 5. We track down the evil force, which is using a mile-long Giant Lizard as a mount. DM: "Suddenly, you realize you're being scried upon." ME: "Will Save." DM: "Huh?" ME: "I get a Will Save to resist the scrying. I roll a 26." DM: "Oh." 6. As part of the scouting. I reasonably state that I'm going to cast Arcane Eye, figuring that I'll track down the controller or controlling item, and the party will just beeline for it. The minute I finish casting, he declares that two Wyrvens attack the party. We deal with those, and I resume my looking. I try and get within the creatures radius, and: DM: "Where do you put the spell?" ME: "Well, it's line of sight, and I can see the creature, so I'll drop it 100 feet away from the creature's head." DM: "Okay." (shows me picture of the creature). "Where do you go with it?" ME: "Well, that building on the head looks like a good place to control it from...I'll go for that." DM (reads spell description): "Huh...I don't like that spell." ME: "So...do I make it to the building?" DM: "No. You move 10 feet, and your sensor dies." ME: "Passive Spellcraft Check. I get a 35. So if it's 10th level or lower, I can probably get a sensee of what it is." DM: "No way you could figure that one out, man...that's like a DC 200." So...a 175th level Magical Effect. Huh. Me (a little frustrated now, but kidding on the square): "Could you just tell me if you're ever going to let me use this spell in the future, so I can not waste time memorizing it every morning?" My fear is that after last session, which we got out of by the skin of our teeth (much to his consternation), he's just going to keep throwing bigger and uglier challenges at us until something snaps. And that something is going to be the characters (in a TPK), and the players who are playing them (as the campaign disintegrates). There are four players, plus the DMPC (we each take a character, so we can have some continuity when we're not DMing). One of the players is oblivious, one is being tactful. But the Dwarven Cleric and me, we're are sharpening our swords. His observation is "If the DM decides that Manshoon is going to be jerking us around the rest of our careers, the next time he shows up I'm just going to Charge him (Manshoon, not the DM) and let my character die. Then I'll make a new character with no relationship to any of this." I'm going to give it another session, because I still have hope, even though the evidence is mounting in favor of pessimism. He's a nice guy, and a good roleplayer. Furthermore, this is set in Realms 1359, and I've already talked about our party being the ones to liberate Damara (a la the Bloodstone series). My hope is that the DM is thinking along similarly historical revisionist lines, and we'll actually be the party to kill Manshoon. But if there's more of this type of nonsense, I'm going to politely write an e-mail to him giving him a few suggestions. If that doesn't work, I'm probably just going to leave the campaign before some deity comes and vaporizes my character for his player's insolence. Whew...just wanted to get that off my chest.
The_Fan 10-31-04, 10:00 AM	Hrm...is he fairly inexperienced? It seems like he's trying to run the kind of game I like, but doesn't know how to without killing everyone, a problem I had in my early days. But, I endeavored to elarn the rules and listen to my players more, and now they love it. As an example, last session I left them on a collapsing airship with two warring Huge elementals ripping up everything in sight and a Huge greater barghest (due largely to a misreading of the Mass Enlarge spell-like ability:blush:) out for blood. The captain's dead, the crew is either dead or jumped ship, there's hundreds of screaming passengers and little the PCs can do to save them, and a crazy cleric that's taking a few parting shots at them as well. Did I mention they're 5th level? :devil: Anyway, I'd say talk to him. Do it gently and suggest you would like a little bit more control and a more reasonable chance of survival. He sounds like he could grow into a cool DM, but right now he needs a lot of work.
nyysjan 10-31-04, 10:18 AM	Only thing i can say about your situation is this 'OUCH' you ever read the Knights Of The Dinner Table from Kenzer & Co i see some similarities. Your GM may have the hole campaign written in his head and is unvilling to let you change the story he has already mapped out. inexperience does that to DM's
ck2001wendt 10-31-04, 10:31 AM	That's sort of my feeling...though this has been a frustrating session and a half. It's certainly not mental immaturity; he's late 20s, and I'm the youngest in the group at 25. It MIGHT be inexperience with the games, though he says he's DMed before (maybe I should search for the bodies of his previous PCs?), and he's certainly played before (mostly rangers). If you look at the 6 things I mentioned: 1. He didn't know how to reproduce the Spell mechanics he wanted (Teleport Circle, etc.). Fair enough. Manshoon's a pretty powerful guy. 2. Was a shamless railroad, an example of the DM telling the player what to do. No excuse. 3. Iffy...but a bad sign. 4. Doesn't understand initial encounter distance, which is okay when you're in a dungeon. But when your encounters should be starting at hundreds of feet away and they're starting at 40, it's a bad sign. 5. Didn't understand the mechanics of Scry. Fair enough. 6. Didn't like the spell, and I get the sense he just up and killed it keep an edge against the players. That he couldn't give a straight answer on the spell effect worries me. 1, 4, and 5 can be written off as "rookie" mistakes. 3 is questionable but makes me think his character is going to turn out to be terribly important. 2 feels like bad DMing to me.
Marchen 10-31-04, 12:22 PM	Throw the core books at him and tell him he should really invest time in reading those, and playing an actual game as opposed to a make-it-up circle jerk game. Lightning bolts don't try to hit you when your Teleport spell fails due to DM's pretend rules. There are no rules anywhere to back something like that up. There are no level 175 spells with Spellcraft DC 200's. He obviously doesn't even know the rules that he wants to use, since if you are going to have a game feature Scrying you should know how the spell works. Mile long giant lizard. Never seen stats in any book for such a monster. The deal with "they are upon you before you can react" is another instance on not knowing rules at all. I wouldn't play in this game anymore if I were you. Why even bother calling it a Role-playing GAME if you aren't going to use the rulebooks.
Board_Rider 10-31-04, 12:42 PM	I agree with Nyysjan in that he probably has an idea in his head and wants it to go with it. This is known as RAILROADING!!! The best thing for your group is to have the guy step down and go back to being a player. Have him read the core books and go back to him later.
Phrennzy 10-31-04, 01:32 PM	Yah it sounds like a severe case of railroading. He may have an idea but not really be prepared for you guys to step outside those boundaries. The Manshoon teleports us away bit is a huge railroad. It's also no big deal. The "try to teleport" is str8 out lame, but again, no harm done. DMPC royalty? Big deal. It may come in useful. Be sure to profit from it since he set it up. Encounter Distance problem is the sign of an inexperienced DM. A mile long lizard? That's a big freaking lizard. But again, big deal. Not everything is statted in the books. The scrying bit is lack of knowledge and inexperience. Arcane Eye and "I don't like that spell". Pure inexperience. BAD DM! BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD! (What the hell is a passive spellcraft check anyway?) So we have a purely inexperienced DM here. His claim of DMing before is bunk, or he DMed when he was 12 and this stuff didn't matter. He should not be DMing, or it should be in a campaign that is wholey seperate from the established characters. That last bit would be a good idea. That way he can gain DM exp without destroying the campaign world or continuity. But if there's more of this type of nonsense, I'm going to politely write an e-mail to him giving him a few suggestions. Puss. Stand up like a man and talk face to face. Make a list of greivances if you must, but do it face to face, one on one. Keep in mind that if he is inexperienced (and he is) that his ego may be fragile to this kind of criticism, constructive though it may be.
Kingside_Bishop 10-31-04, 01:51 PM	Yeah, he's railroading you. But if he's new, you should talk to him about it (without using the term "railroading"). Most new DM's railroad, I did, and it's usually because they don't think they can handle spontaneity. The best way to get past this is to practice it. Keep pushing him towards freedom, and eventually you'll break free of the railroad ties into which he's got you entangled (and the worst part is, you didn't get a Reflex save to resist entanglement because he doesn't know the rules!... whooo, that was a good one). But above all, don't quit. It might be frustrating, but stick with him, he might be a good DM someday, and we could always use more of those. On a side note, this is why new DMs should stick to doing a dungeon crawl campaign for their first campaign -- makes things much easier, and gets the DM some experience under the belt.
ck2001wendt 10-31-04, 02:01 PM	Arcane Eye and "I don't like that spell". Pure inexperience. BAD DM! BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD! (What the hell is a passive spellcraft check anyway?) It's where you identify a spell being cast, or identify a spell that's already in place and in effect (that I know about...like after it's killed my Arcane Eye). I call it "Passive" because it requires no action on my part to make it happen, and it can be done an unlimited number of times a round. Puss. Stand up like a man and talk face to face. Make a list of greivances if you must, but do it face to face, one on one. Keep in mind that if he is inexperienced (and he is) that his ego may be fragile to this kind of criticism, constructive though it may be. Hahaha...maybe I'll drink a little first. Well, my other option is just to get him before a session, since that's the only time we're alone. Though I do fear for my character's safety at that point. It's not really worth it to me to go out of my way to have coffee with the guy and talk about it. So e-mail or pre-session.
Mr_Smiley 10-31-04, 03:39 PM	Everything here points to this guy not knowing the rules, and not knowing much about the game itself. I sugjest you have him step down from DMing for a while and be a player for at least 1 full campaign before trying to DM again. He needs to see how a proper game is run. He also need to read both the PHB and the DMG front to back, twice. He doesn't know enough of the rules.
Jell_Moo 10-31-04, 03:51 PM	Wow, that stuff just hurts man... It sounds to like your DM has a set narrative already prepared, and is unwilling to veer from it. The big problem there is that he tries to predict ahead of time what the players will do, and when they stray from his original plan, he forces them back onto that path. I think the DMPC part is a big giveaway. I personally have never seen a DMPC work out well. Your group does not sound too small, so there isn't any reason for there to be a DMPC in any case. Slight railroading, in my opinion, isn't always a horrible thing. Blatant, constant railroading is never good though. Your DM seems to have a problem with adapting to players actions, as well as improvising when needed. Those are skills are of prime importance to good DMing. Let me give you an example from a campaign I'm currently playing in, that has taken a lot of effort to get going. When we first started, the rules were kind of like this... Allowed races: Human, Dwarf, Baboon Man (homebrew race) Allowed classes: Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Shaman (homebrew), Nada-Bawi (homebrew, kind of like a really lame Druid), Wizard. All casters used the spell point system from UA. Wizards (and only Wizards used the Vitalizing variant from UA. Essentially, if they ever used more than half of their spell points, they became Exhausted). Wizards had 'Favored Schools' depending on their place of origin, and half of their starting spells as well as half of their level up spells had to come from one of those two schools. Finding Scrolls or spellbooks was next to impossible. Consider that, and then consider why you would even think of playing a Wizard. Oh, and I forgot that spells like Teleport were banned. Even Mount, a 1st level spell was banned, and then after much argument allowed in, but horribly nerfed. The campaign tanked, and tanked quickly. We had to ditch our characters and restart, giving the game another go. (In all fairness, the players were equally responsible for the campaign going sour). The problem was that the DM had this wonderful vision of his campaign world, which was wonderful and flavorful, but the existing mechanics did not support it. So instead of making alterations to the world, he tried to alter the mechanics to make it fit. What happened was he created a beautiful campaign setting which was horribly unbalanced, lacked many of the standard D&D mechanics, and created several frustrated players. Your problem sounds similar, in that the DM has his world nicely laid out, and wants you guys to go through it in a linnear way. He is altering game rules and railroading the players to force them along the way he thinks they should go. And that my friend, is a problem. If it is hurting your enjoyment of the game you have to tell him. Personally I prefer in person than through email, because from experience in my campaign, emails can often be taken the wrong way. What you may say as a mild constructive criticism may be taken as a complete insult. Either way, I wish you luck, and hope that you reach a good understanding, and have a fun game.
ImmortalBlueMage 10-31-04, 07:57 PM	Inexperienced or not, this guy is just plain bad. Let's just go down the "Bad DM Checklist" for a second, hmmmm? -Used a big famous overpowered NPC villain? Check. -Used the old "mysterious time stop" cliche? Check. -Used the old "teleported witout warning or save" trick? Check. -Ordered the players aroudn? Check. -Made a DMPC? Check. -Plans to make the DMPC the focus of the story? Probably. -Didn't know the rules? Check. -Nerfed spells because he hadn't planned for them? Check. -Railroads everything? Check.
ck2001wendt 10-31-04, 08:26 PM	-Used a big famous overpowered NPC villain? Check. Well, to be fair on this one I was the one who started the historical revisionism by saying "hey, it's 1359 and Damara is under the control of the Witch King. Let's go liberate the place and rule it ourselves!" On the other other hand, he had no idea that I planned on doing this when he came up with the campaign... There's a "cool" way to include Manshoon and an "uncool way." The "cool" way is to ignore proper history and give us a legitimate shot at slaying or otherwise defeating Manshoon, either triggering FRCS events early or taking us down a new path (unlikely, based on the 16 level power differential). The "uncool way" is to make him "untouchable," and just have him around to jerk around the PCs from adventure to adventure. My Jury's out on this one. In my campaign I've used Elminster and the Knights of Myth Drannor, but they've been cameos appropriate to the area and situation (and they never solved the party's problems...Elminster transported them somewhere, and the Knights went with them as support). I've also rewritten a chunk of FR history by making Yuman Khan an ancient Dragon (masquerading as the human who accidently freed him) free after thousands of years of slumber...but I'm sure as hell going to make sure that it's the PCs doing the heavy lifting, and not some DM Ex Mach where Azoun kills him and takes all the credit. So I can appreciate where he might be coming from...by association. -Made a DMPC? Check. To be fair on this one as well, since we're using a "rotating DM" system we're ALL DMPCs in one way or another. Though I find the timing troubling, and it builds on my greater misgivings. -Plans to make the DMPC the focus of the story? Probably. To be honest, if it looks like it's going this way, I might just "accidentally" frag him at a cruicial moment. He's a useful ally, but my Wizard also has an ambitious streak, and if it looks like he's going to try and usurp Damara from me (which I hope to build into a base of operations as the power behind the new throne, or as a Cabinet member in a Republic) I won't hesitate to discredit or destroy him. The first would be neutral, the second evil, but I've accumulated lots of "good" chits the last few months of adventuring. -Used the old "mysterious time stop" cliche? Check. -Used the old "teleported witout warning or save" trick? Check. -Ordered the players aroudn? Check. -Didn't know the rules? Check. -Nerfed spells because he hadn't planned for them? Check. -Railroads everything? Check. Otherwise...fair interpretations...and all things that seriously worried or frustrated me.
White rabbit 10-31-04, 11:37 PM	I think that all of us who have played in the FR have altered it's history. For instance, the group I play with caused the fall of Myth Drannor by making the portals to Baator permanent. :D
Cold Napalm 11-01-04, 02:33 PM	Sadly enough, one of my game is heading in the same direction. It's not the dm is inexpierenced...just not very good at higher levels as he hasn't played much higher level games. He seems to think that +1 weapon is MORE then enough at level 12. His low level 1-6 games are fine. It might be that the new DM lacks the ability to deal with high powered characters other then to throw bigger more broken thing? I'm actually about to give my game a session more before calling it a wash too.
Arak the mighty 11-01-04, 06:12 PM	Tell the guy to go get himself a typewriter and a ream of paper. Tell him that he can go ahead and work on his novel while the rest of your group actually plays a role playing game.
ck2001wendt 11-04-04, 09:21 AM	All right, we had our next session last night, and I have some further conclusions to make: 1. We are definitely getting railroaded. I came up with a plan to get us to skip much of the module (by simply ignoring everything but the head of the giant Lizard, dimension dooring to that area on its back) and when we got to the controlling tower we were teleported (we forced him to let us save...but even on a 28 I failed. Must have a pretty decent casting stat...). Where did we end up? Right back in the middle of the module. 2. The DM is getting drunk off DM power, and that's affecting the way he plays his PC. Example: DM: Okay, it's the surprise round. X (DMPC) shoots... Cleric and I: Shouldn't we roll initiative. DM: But it's the surprise round... Cleric and I: Right. We roll our initiative, take our surprise actions, then the surprised parties get to go... DM: Okay, let's just go by highest Dex for the surprise round. I've got a 24 (highest in the group). X shoots... Our last DM played his PC exactly right: keep quiet and do your job. Now that he's just a PC, he's freely offering his opinions and being a more active participant in the group. This DMPC unfortunately looks bent on remaining overbearing..."wait guys...I have a plan..." though it hasn't gotten out of hand yet. 3. There is a definite knowledge gap between the players and DM. Which is why he nearly killed us all with a Chain Lightning. "What, you mean only the FIRST bolt does full damage?" Then he threw us up against a Tainted Hound Archon PALADIN, but forgot to factor in things like Spell Resistance and Elec Immunity (which went in our favor, admittedly, though I didn't know until I went back and looked at what we faced). 4. There are balance problems. He's noted that he's not going to throw encounters at us below CR 11 (we're 9th level) because we're "munchkin" (trust me, we're minmaxers and good tacticians at best...we've got a 9th level straight Wizard for cripes sake...). In the hound archon example above, he threw a CR 16 creature, a CR 13 or 14 Sorcerer, 20 CR 2's, and a Monstrous Spider at a party of 9th level characters. That we survived is 1) a tribute to our party's tactical prowess and 2) indicative of his knowledge of the monster's abilities he's throwing at us (ie not using them to their fullest). That encounter, by rights, should have been a TPK (there was no opportunity for escape). Man, that sounds pretty bad when I say it like that. The good news is, I thought the session was actually BETTER than last session (though some of the others disagreed). It felt like the blatant railroading got toned down, and we were able to successfully argue with him on several points. This gives me hope that through osmosis he'll learn the rules and get better. He's a good guy. He's a good player and a good roll player. But he's definitely going through the "growing pains" of learning how to DM. Right now, we're just gritting our teeth, because we like palying together and don't want to kill the campaign, but two of us are already DMs, one of us has already DMed in this campaign (and shouldn't be forced to again for awhile), and at least one of us isn't experienced enough to DM. I've promised I'll take over when this DM's "turn" is over (at epic levels...which might not be long considering the CR of our encounters), but I need to wrap my other campaign first. Remember kids...with Great Power Comes Great Responsibility. End Rant. I'll see you next Thursday, for another installment.
eudas 11-04-04, 10:41 AM	same bat time, same bat place! eudas
Insane Pixie 11-04-04, 10:52 AM	same bat time, same bat place! eudas :uh-huh:
tec-9-7 11-04-04, 07:13 PM	I remember being in a Traveller game waaaaaaay back early in my gaming career that this reminded me of. Neither myself, nor the other players really enjoyed it. We just weren't interested in playing the game that the GM was trying to run and it involved a number of totally ham-fisted railroads - we (other players and I ) handled it poorly then. Were I you, I'd talk to the DM privately OOG in person, and explain what is making you unhappy in a fashion that is as non-accusatory as possible, then try to offer some helpful suggestions as to making it better. Make sure to begin w/ some things you LIKE that he does, and try to give positive compliments as well as negative criticisms. If he does some things really well, tell him.
OmiKapSi 11-04-04, 07:30 PM	Pixie, you just totally dated yourself. I got about as far as the DM: "Okay, Wizard (I'm the Wizard), you try and teleport. and my jaw almost hit the floor. It's at least as good as (this actually happened) Me: Ok, according to this map, there's a river just to the north of us, I need to take a quick side trip to wash this stuff off. DM: You go a few steps north and run into an invisible wall. Me: :uh-huh: I check the wall and see how wide and high it is. DM: It runs east to west as far as you check, and is higher than you can reach. Me: :bored: riiight. I suppose I should be glad he didn't force me to take damage from the collision, :rolleyes: If I were you, I'd be torn between just throwing out random stuff, and seeing how ridiculous I could make the situation (insanity is simply a rational response to insanity, right?), or I'd put my character on hiatus, bring in a different one who I didn't care about, and start bringing a decent novel to the games. I suppose though, as a responsible player, you're kind of obligated to try and talk some sense into him. Although I'd be soo tempted to use that 'close combat' against him. Wait until the BBEG pops up, and then declare an attack roll. When he looks at you funny, just innocently say: "By the time he can react, I'm upon him. My attack roll hits a 25." Either that, or cast immunity to electricity, and then start casting teleport over and over in his lair, see what happens when there is massive lightning discharge raining down around you. Man, I could go oooonn. :D
Insane Pixie 11-04-04, 07:36 PM	Pixie, you just totally dated yourself. :uh-huh:
ck2001wendt 11-04-04, 08:34 PM	Haha...Protection from Elements, Maybe.... Thank you for your suggestions, all. At this point, I'm resolved to seeing how bad things get (if he pulls out of the dive, so to speak), then doing an intervention to try and shepard him back onto something productive. But I'm going to keep posting every Thursday, so long as we keep coming across situations that are of questionable rationality. It will be fun and instructive for other players out there, if nothing else.
eudas 11-04-04, 11:04 PM	pixie, see also: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059968/ eudas
Murr-Quan Lord #2 11-06-04, 11:03 AM	This is a very entertaining topic. I look forward to seeing where it goes. ^.^ Having dealt with a similar matter, I'd say don't try to be random. The DM can always thwart something you try to pull off, especially if he considers the rules to be mere suggestions. The more you try to actively derail the plot train, the more he will punish you for doing so. All things considered, the way that you're handling this right now is probably best, and the closest to Good-aligned as well. Watch the other players, though; if they're extremely dissatisfied with the campaign, and none of them have yet dared to speak up, you may have to do so for them.
delroland 11-06-04, 03:24 PM	For the love of all that is holy, PLEASE coup de grace the DMPC in his sleep! Or you could waste him in a similar manner to the "Let's Build a Snowman" guy from that cannibal musical: DMPC: Hey, I've got a plan! You: DMPC, shut up. DMPC: But it's a good plan! You: Shut UP, DMPC! DMPC: All it involves is... You: DMPC, SHUT THE :censored: UP!!! DMPC: Look, I really think we should-- You: <casts phantasmal killer, or fireball, or lightning bolt, or whatever>
tompulsar 11-07-04, 08:16 AM	Shpradoinkle! :D
Vintrastorm 11-20-04, 05:34 AM	so..... *bump* what happened?
Nom 11-20-04, 08:33 AM	Two questions come to my mind: * How much playing has this guy done at this level? * How much DM-ing has he really done? A DM can't prepare for everything, but he sure ought to know the important details of any spells and/or monsters he plans to throw at you. A lot of people don't realise that once you reach about 7th level, D&D is not just 'same as level 2, but bigger'. There are a lot more options and possibilities, and it just gets "worse" as the levels go up. If a DM can't handle the rules mechanics at level 2, he is going to sink link a stone at level 10. It sounds like this guy has some interesting story ideas, but has neither the storytelling finesse or rules knowledge to turn them into adventures. I'd recommend finding some (tactful) way to get him to run a few stories at level 3 or so to find his feet. If possible, have him also participate in a level 9-ish adventure as a player, with the DM making the rules mechanics as visible as they can without being two intrusive. If he handles running the low level adventure well, and handles the mid level mechanics, then he's probably ready to try his hand at a higher level adventure. As an off-beat suggestion, perhaps one of you could have him co-DM a higher level adventure that you've written. Put him in charge of a couple of relatively complex encounters, or at least have him play the 'bad guys' while you manage the turn flow. That may help him get a feel for rules and tactics.
twad 11-20-04, 12:30 PM	well.. as many others said before, railroad. And it prettry looks like he is a cinematic kinda DM for there is nothing you can do that will change a thing since this is his "movie"
Raist27m 11-20-04, 06:00 PM	Sounds like your DM is railroading simply because he's not that familiar with the rules, so whenever you do something unexpected he just throws down rule 0 in your face. You've got two options. Get someone else to DM. Be patient while he learns to run the game better, and discuss things with him from time to time. It's as frustrating to be ignorant as a DM, as it is to be railroaded as a player.
ck2001wendt 11-20-04, 06:23 PM	Well...first we took a week off (1/3rd of the party was sick, including the DM). We got together last week for what was essentially a "filler" issue/session/episode. And I'll give credit where credit's due; I actually thought the session was a bit stronger than the last two. Still, there are basically 4 problems: 1. The Railroading: There was only one thing that was highly objectionable last session, and that was how a BBEG "escaped." We're facing a Cleric of Wee Jas. He throws down a Cause Fear (not the best way to open a battle against 6 trained adventurers, but fair enough). My Wizard goes next...and immediately smothers him in a Wall of Sand. The DM was frozen while he took a look at the spell. I tell him to start rolling Strength checks. He rolls a couple of 20s, and says "you detect a magical effect...something from the Travel Domain." Never mind that Cleric's of Wee Jas aren't particularly known for their Travel spells. Later he tells us it was an "item." If you're going to DM, you have to know certain things. A) The PC's abilities, B) the abilities of the monsters. After that you have to play it straight. I don't care if the BBEG uses a Helm of Teleportation to escape. I DO care if you have to make it up half way through the encounter. Now, the sad thing is that maybe he was actually playing this straight. The problem is, after the prior stuff we're having problems trusting his judgment. It sounds like we're *****ing, but after the first 6 or 7 inconsistencies in the first session, the trust between the DM and players is gone. 2. Inexperience with DMing: There are basic things here, and they're true for every RPG. Specifically A) Set the scene as soon as the party enters an area; if there's a door and a ladder and windows in a room...TELL US. When our party was stuck in the Hound Archon encounter, it would have been noteworthy to let us know whether there was a door in the room...it would certainly increase our options. B) Understand the motivations of your players. The original Manshoon encounter didn't bother me all that much; these things happen. But you don't need to railroad us at every turn to keep us in the adventure. If we are men good and true, and we have no obvious way of escaping, there is no reason why we wouldn't come to these conclusions on our own. Give us a chance to explore the area and decide that this really is the best course of action. What was gained by keeping us from teleporting? The Continent is far too far away from Faerun to just go home, and there's nothing particulalry special about us walking from area to area rather than teleporting. 3. Inexperience with D&D: This goes back to the prior statement about "knowing the situation." You have to know about the spells and abilities of the monsters you send. I think this got a little better last session. He ran a very servicable encounter against us with a Bone Devil. It helped that we were there reminding him about SR, Flanking, and AoOs (and that he openly acknowleged before the session that we know the rules much better than he does). 4. The "Legolas" Syndrome: In the same family of afflictions as Affective Drizzt Disorder, but the symptoms manifest themselves as eleven blood, royal heritage, and an affinity for longbows. We're going to see what happens Tuesday. Unfortunately, 3 of the 5 players are now openly frustrated with what's going on. We may just say "this campaign is over," and limit him to a few side adventures until things get better.
ck2001wendt 11-20-04, 06:35 PM	Two questions come to my mind: * How much playing has this guy done at this level? * How much DM-ing has he really done? Those are good questions. He almost certainly has as much playing experience at this level as I do (none!). As for DMing, I couldn't tell you. He says he's DMed before, and he's probably the 3rd or 4th most experienced DM in the group. As an off-beat suggestion, perhaps one of you could have him co-DM a higher level adventure that you've written. Put him in charge of a couple of relatively complex encounters, or at least have him play the 'bad guys' while you manage the turn flow. That may help him get a feel for rules and tactics. This is actually a good suggestion, and the sort of thing that I'd be willing to try. Having one of the more experienced DMs working with him on developing the story. Though ideas aren't the problem...it's the execution.
Nom 11-20-04, 07:43 PM	This is actually a good suggestion, and the sort of thing that I'd be willing to try. Having one of the more experienced DMs working with him on developing the story. Though ideas aren't the problem...it's the execution.*nods* Which is why I think it would be good to divorce him from the ideas and just worry about the execution. If he's playing someone else's encounter, then he doesn't need to worry about the 'big picture', just that encounter. It essentially puts him in the position of a player, but on the other side of the fence. "These are your pieces. These are your goals (though since you're playing the bad guys it's likely you wont achieve them). Play this side exactly as if you're a player; I'll referee. That means you need to know your creatures abilities and tactics thoroughly, and figure out how to use them to best effect." With no meta-plot considerations except for the given goals, he is free to actually figure out how to play the opponents to best effect. It becomes even more interesting if you make him the aggressor: "Your spies report that the party is in one of these three buildings. You must obtain the amulet from them, whether by negotiation, theft, or open combat. If a significant disturbance occurs, expect the city guards within 5 minutes. It is more important that you preserve your own skin than that you acquire the amulet tonight." This gives him options, but he still must work within the rules. One of the most important skills of being a good DM is to know how to make the rules work for you, achieving your story goals while being transparently fair.
Mordmorgan the Mad 11-20-04, 11:08 PM	Puss. Stand up like a man and talk face to face. This is why we all love Phrennzy. More on topic: DON'T EVER LET THAT GUY DM AGAIN (unless he reads all the books twice and uses a premade adventure, but even then, don't)
ck2001wendt 12-14-04, 11:16 AM	So, as you might imagine it would, the campaign died. Sort of. Under our "Bad Signs" DM, we never had two sessions in a row. After his third session our DM, already playing in two other campaigns, decides to take the month of December "off." He just felt burned out. This would have meant about six weeks between sessions. He told us this the day of a session. I made a counter-proposal. I would DM the journeys in-between the places he wanted us to go (the Elven Kingdom, the sinister Tower), and when we got there, he could run the RP interactions with the major NPCs. This would allow him to avoid having to deal with prep time, which seemed the major problem. He had sold his story arc as "one part Warren Ellis, one part Grant Morrison," the biggest, coolest story arc we'd ever encounter. Fair enough. But add to that one part Rob Liefield. There was no execution behind the ideas. He accepted my counter-proposal. I would kill a few hours with the party travelling, then he would take over as DM the last 30 minutes or so, and lead us on the way to our next destination. But it gets better. I DMed the next session, trying to take some of the less well though out ideas (no teleportation, etc.) and make them into somethingg that actually made sense in the context of what was happening ("the Book is generating spatial distortions that are opening random dimensional rifts and warping long-distance spatial magics" rather than "I want you here, so I'm going to stop you from doing anything I don't like."). I throw a jungle up in the middle of the party's path (yes, out of nowhere). Chunks of other dimensions are being pulled into ours by this evil Book. It appeared after a night of "sapphire lightning" that forced the party to take shelter in a cave. This one happened to be from an alternate Age of Discovery world with demi-humans and monsters, where a small mining village in the middle of a jungle populated by people with suspiciously Spanish accents are dealing with a werejaguar problem (or "were-yaguars"). See "Bad Moon Waning" on the Wizards site for the original adventure, modified by making the villagers Spanish, giving them outrageous accents and swapping werewolves for were-jaguars (lycanthorpes with a Leopard's special abilities). The party arrives at the village. Unfortunately for our Legolas clone, while Gnomes and Dwarves are seen as "Swice" or "Dootch," Elves are seen a "Indians" and treated with disdain by the villagers. The former DM took this poorly. The party putters around for the day. Legolas (lets call him what he is) goes off on his own, and proceeds to rob one of the villager's cabins (for 6 freaking SP!). The player of the Dwarven cleric slaps his forehead. Night falls, and the notable lets the party stay with him...but makes the "Indian" sleep outside. Legolas hears some sounds in the jungle, and goes off to investigate...on his own! The Cleric's player slaps his forehead again. Using his tracking skills, Legolas finds a creature moving through the jungle...the Were-(jaguar) Lord from "Bad Moon Waning." Legolas is 10th level. ME: "What do you do?" Legolas: "Heh heh. Got him right where I want him..." ME: "Move Silently." (rolls, and my opposed listen check beats him) ME: "The creature turns toward you. It's a full moon out, and you make it to be at least 9 feet tall...maybe 10. It has a rounded, feline face, and burning red eyes. It turns at you and growls. It's maybe 40 feet off." Legolas: "I draw my bow and move to attack." (we roll init, and the Lord wins). ME: "You draw your bow, but pulling that arrow from your quiver feels like the slowest thing you've ever done. Before you know it, the beast has lept upon you and is tearing in with his dagger-long teeth and claws" (series of damage rolls later...) "You take 54 damage..." Legolas: "WHAT?!?!" We all look up. Jaguars have the Pounce ability. ME: "What do you do?" Expecting he'll withdraw. If he does, I was going to let him go. Legolas: "I drop my bow, take out my Flametounge and nail him!" (rolls) "33 damage!" ME: "What are you doing with the rest of your attack? Are you running?" Legolas: "No way...I'll take him easy!" ME: "Your bolt of eldricth fire strikes the creature squarely over the heart. It stands yet and lets out a terrible howl!" ME: "What do you do?" Legolas: "I'm staying and fighting!" ME: "The creature advances on you...Hit. Hit. Hit." (rolling) Legolas: "WHAT! Wait...what's the CR on this thing!?! What's his attack bonus? How is he hitting me? My AC's 23!" Serious no-no. At that point, I hand him the Monster Manual. "Well, it's got three attacks at +24, +20 and +20...so I think he's going to get you. It's here in the book if you want to look. It's a CR 14 creature." Cleric (OOC...exasperated): "Well, it's not an over-balanced challenge...WHEN THE REST OF THE PARTY IS THERE TOO!" Lesson#1: Do not charge strange Lycanthorpes when the rest of your party is sleeping. Lesson #2: At level 10, CR 14 creatures are meant to be fought in groups, not soloed. If you find yourself soloing a creature of this power...run. Long story short: The creature attacks again, and I roll about 20 more damage than necessary to kill him. At that moment, I decided that the campaign is over for this player, but I didn't have the heart to kill him. I dropped him to -8 and let the Cleric hear his screams and find him before he died. Then I ended the session on a cliffhanger. Everyone enjoyed the session...except Legolas, of course So the campaign died...sort of. 4 of the other 5 players (including one who left previously), have left the campaign and we've started our own (same characters). I'm going to close out his train wreck of a story in a couple of sessions, then turn it over to another DM. That 3 of the other 4 players agree with me (and the one that didn't was in Legolas' other two campaigns) is heartening. We had a session Sunday, picking up 2 players from my other campaign, we all got along well. Let that be a lesson to all of you. What that lesson's supposed to be, I have no idea...