Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nanahara 03-14-05, 11:02 PM	In my current campaign, my buddies and I were wandering around a swamp when we were attacked by a covey of hags and their 4 hill giant and 8 ogre buddies(random encounter). considering we were a 4th(almost 5th) level party, we probably should have run very far away. But after some unlucky rolls by the gm, some very useful black powder(gunpowder/steam age campaign) and some of the most ingenious ideas ever we somehow pulled a win our of our asses. The gm, though, was kind of at a loss for words, in order to balance it he gave us a third of what we deserved for such a win and probably a fourth of the treasure. Now, i used to be a gm and I understand that having characters of a higher level can be a problem sometimes but i believe that we earned the exp and loot and should at least have more than what we recieved. The other members of the group feel the same way and we cannot just give a ' our war or we walk' kinda thing because we want our gm to agree, not just be forced into it and this is a bit of a hot button issue. Any rational suggestions on how what is best in this situation would be very helpful. ;)
DM Zoc 03-14-05, 11:16 PM	It's hard to judge the CR of that encounter, but I believe there is a rule which states that any encounter of X CR greater than the ECL of the party does not give any experience (the rationale being that there must have been extenuating circumstances, so the DM should really think about whether the party deserves experience). It reminds me of the party of first-level characters who borrowed seige weaponry to kill a dragon from a mile away; they were at extreme range, but they were out of the dragon's line of sight and they knew they'd get a natural 20 eventually (this was 2E, so that was an auto-crit). A green hag is CR 5, an ogre is CR 3, and a hill giant is CR 7. Off hand, I would say that three CR 5, eight CR 3, and four CR 7 would make for a decent encounter of CR 10, maybe 9. You could not have succeeded, unless something very fishy was going on.
Oberoni 03-15-05, 12:27 AM	If you legitimately overcame the odds and won, you should be rewarded. DM Zoc, the rule to which you refer (found on page 39 of the DMG) recommends that such reduced XP only be given if the PCs laid the smack down on something with a CR 8 higher than their level. Your estimate placed it as a CR 10 encounter, so the PCs are not yet in the "c'mon, there's no way you coulda done that" range. Of course, assigning CRs is oftentimes an art, not a science; however, assuming that you really did use brilliant strategy and a bit of luck, 1/3 of the potential XP seems kind of lame.
Tealgorthian 03-15-05, 12:37 AM	I've (on the player end) had this issue before, in 2nd edition with some wonky houserules about magic (if you rolled a perfect on any multi-dice damage spell, it was an insta-kill) Needless to say, we threatened something we should have (wyrm red dragon) I cast a cone of cold, pulled 5 6's on the dice, and gibbed the thing. So my DM awarded the experience like this: We got 1/3rd right then and there. Next time we leveled, we got the additional 1/3rd, and the 3rd time we leveled, we got the rest. We had to quest to find all the dragon's treasure, with each horde having progressively better and better stuff. Might be an option for you, dunno.
Phrennzy 03-15-05, 01:02 AM	According to an Encounter Calculator: 1 Green Hag (CR 5) 1 Sea Hag (CR 4) 1 Annis (CR 6) 4 Hill Giants (CR 7) 8 Ogres (CR 3) is an EL 12.8 According to the Calculator, your party of 4 4th level PCs should get 6550 exp each. It also suggests you get a new DM. I have to say, that unless the covey was made up of 3 retarded hags, and that the hill giants were all quadreplegics, and the ogres all born blind, that you would have been slaughtered. A 4th level party winning such an encounter is beyond belief. It's a total fluke, and you being awarded 33%, or 2000+ is a good reward.
AGuardian76 03-15-05, 01:10 AM	This al comes down to the CR off the encounter. I can not judge this encounter, but if you can make an encounter more difficult and thus raise it's CR it would be logical that one can also lower the CR.
Hochiu 03-15-05, 01:23 AM	If the Dm lowered the CR without lowering some of the abilities of the monsters, than they're really kind of a HORRIBLE DM. There's no reason for the monsters to be lowered so that the players can get "better EXP" or what ever. They're a CR for a reason, if they can't handle the CR, then they shouldn't be put in a situation against them. 1. Is the DMs fault that the CR was too high and that it should have never happened? Yes. 2. Is it the DMs fault because the players rolled well/were smart and he got unlucky rolls? No. 3. Was it sporting of him to NOT follow the reccomendation in the DMs guide and try to give you LESS experience? Yes. Really, you're just complaining about being cheated when it shouldn't have happened int he first place. Heh
weasel fierce 03-15-05, 04:03 AM	2nd edition has no critical hit rules. Though it has some optional examples for melee critical hit systems. Both of the above posters referencing 2nd edition are either remembering wrong, or refering house rules. As for the encounter in question, if the players manage to win througth clever tactics, then they deserve the spoils of war (and xp), I'd say. What else is adventure gaming, but tactical exercises to overcome impossible odds ?
Vatras 03-15-05, 04:27 AM	Everyone makes mistakes, and this time it was the DMs...he either made the encounter too hard or he underestimated your resources. So he tried to correct his mistake as anyone else would (I am an optimist :)), and decided to run with the XP for a fitting encounter for the group (admitting he underestimated your group). Thats not wrong, but tends to disappoint the players. I do it the other way round...if the players find a way to deal with something thats nominally beyond them, I give out the full reward (its my pride to create encounters which contain whats on the label...if it says CR 25 a group of level 20s has to be real good to overcome it, but if they manage it, they deserve the reward).
weasel fierce 03-15-05, 04:31 AM	To expand on my first post. I'd propably consider cutting down the treasure (a wandering party of monsters wouldnt lug around anything of particular value in any event), though i'd definately shell out the full XP
Arrowhen 03-15-05, 05:31 AM	Clearly the DM took one too many hits off the Pipe of Feeblemind to throw an encounter like this at a 4th level party. But the fact remains, they overcame the challenge and deserve the reward for it. But after some unlucky rolls by the gm,... In a game based around randomness, this is going to happen from time to time. If the DM feels the party deserves less xp because the dice weren't in his favor, the party should demand extra experience every time their dice conspire against them. some very useful black powder(gunpowder/steam age campaign)... They made the best use of the resources at their disposal. That's the very essence of overcoming a challenge. ...and some of the most ingenious ideas ever we somehow pulled a win our of our asses. This, if nothing else, is why the players deserve the reward. Note that I said players. This is the kind of gaming event they'll be telling stories about twenty years from now. How dare the DM tarnish that memory with petty *****ing over xp and gold? The sad thing is, it's not even that much xp and gold. Since you're not supposed to be able to gain multiple levels from a single encounter, they'l be going from almost level 5 to almost level 6. That's ONE LOUSY LEVEL. It's not like they suddenly went Epic or something. The PCs in my campaign just hit 4th level themselves. If for some odd reason they all got enough xp to level up next session it woudn't have any kind of negative impact on my campaign at all. At the very most it would mean I'd have to add a class level to an NPC here and there. As far as the treasure goes, the typical treasure for a CR12 encounter is what, 10,000 gp? (I'd look it up, but my DMG is way over there in the other room.) That's barely more that what they'd have made by just adventuring through level 5, assuming the DM is following the standard wealth by level guidelines. Sure, wandering monsters aren't going to carry all their loot around, but if they players work for it by tracking back to monsters' lair, then they deserve the reward. Besides, for low level characters, holding on to that much loot can become an adventure in itself--as soon as they start flashing their money around, they attract the attention of a party of evil adventurers a level or two higher than themselves. Voila! Instant recurring rivals.
Nanahara 03-15-05, 09:58 AM	Alot of you were saying that the dm shouldn't of thrown this encounter at us. Just to clear things up, the dm created a world and let us stumble into far to difficult encounters if we weren't careful. (although there was little warning this time). We also did have the means to escape but half way away we remembered the black powder and blew the ogres to high heaven. Yes, luck did play a huge role in this battle with 1-insta-kill (two threats in a row and a hit) against the annis, no less, and three critical hits on our side. With 4 critical fumbles with our dm(i might be off, i had to interpret what the monsters were doing.)
Bane 03-15-05, 11:41 AM	And this is why DM's should use grapple. Are you telling me that the Hill Giant couldn't pick up any member of your party, and squeeze him till he popped?
weasel fierce 03-15-05, 02:14 PM	Difficult encounters are fine. Smart players know when to run away. Superior players know when to run away, then track the monsters to their lair and steal their stuff
phant0m master 03-15-05, 04:35 PM	Our DM likes to pput us up against very difficult encounters too. And since we only get to play once a week, there is usually at least 2 such encounters and we level up somewhat like a rogues BaB +0 +1 +1 +0 +1 +1 +0 ect. this is because we told our DM we wanted the campaign hard and fast so we could watch our builds grow. He has never denied us XP for luck. (instant kill on a touch attack to deliver a spell! i'll never forget that! house rules are awsome!)
Stuntman 03-15-05, 04:55 PM	I don't have a problem with a DM putting things in that will in all likelihood kill the party. It is up to the party to assess the situation and act accordingly. Running is a viable option. There's nothing in the rules that say you must fight every single encounter. Still, if the party took the chance on a tough encounter, used good tactics and have some good luck, there may be a possiblity that the party can overcome the odds. In this case the party did. It sounds like the DM reasoned that the powder made the encounter easier for the party. If the situation was unusual such that it made the encounter easier or harder, the DM may adjust the XP awarded. I generally do not like situations where if the party has an item and uses it, they receive less XP. As for receiving less treasure, that is totally rediculous. You kill them and all of a sudden, 3/4 of their wealth disappeared? Whether you make it easy or hard to defeat an encounter, they should have the same treasure. The encounter should include all items and treasure. They either don't have the treasure to begin with or the party finds all of it after defeating them. Treasure does not mysteriously disappear because the PC's fluke out.
trapspringer 03-15-05, 05:50 PM	I have to take issue with the quote: I have to say, that unless the covey was made up of 3 retarded hags, and that the hill giants were all quadreplegics, and the ogres all born blind, that you would have been slaughtered. The ogres would need to have been recently blinded, because if they were born that way, they would have had enough time to adapt a little. Your DM screwed up, you saw behind the curtain, get over it. Be glad he is unfamiliar with tactics for groups of monsters and even less familiar with hags. Running away and sticking a pile of dynamite under a bridge should not be enough to trick a hag, especially considering all the neat magics they have. Even if your idea was really, really astounding, divination should have countered anything sneaky you were doing. I think your DM made a mistake, and you should just chill out. If he does this again, you need to point out the error. IF it happens again, get a new DM.
Phrennzy 03-15-05, 07:34 PM	I stand corrected by the great Trapspringer.
Nanahara 03-15-05, 09:49 PM	well, the bomb wasn't hidden under bridge as much as dropped from the air with a alchemists fire riding on top after a fly spell so hags wouldn't have been able to react in time
Lord Schpungus 03-15-05, 09:54 PM	I don't usually play by the xp tables, but not getting aptly rewarded for overcoming a tremendous battle by superior intellect, ingenious cunning, tremendous tactics, and a little luck from the dice, well, that's totally a bummer. And from the way it looks like he's set up the world (you blunder into the red wyrm's lair, it's your own fault kinda thing), he shouldn't penalize you for stumbling into something powerful and overcoming it.
IceFractal 03-16-05, 01:44 PM	I'm all for setting up a realistic world and letting the PCs run into the creatures that are there, whether at an appropriate level or not (of course, there's almost always a way to avoid the encounter entirely or run away from it). However, when you do that, you have to do the converse, also, meaning that if the players somehow defeat an encounter that seems far too tough, through good strategy, then they should get the full reward for it. You can't say "I'm not pulling any punches on encounters, but you're limited to level appropriate rewards no matter what you defeat." Well, you can, but its not very fair, or very fun for the players. If the players would get less xp for a pitifully weak encounter then they should get more xp for an extremely tough encounter. And I never liked that "you don't get xp for encounters that are too tough" part of the xp table. It smacks of an unfair DM saying "Hey! That encounter was just to frighten you so that you could be rescued by my deus-ex-machina DMPC! You weren't supposed to win!"
trapspringer 03-16-05, 07:26 PM	Fly doesn't work on objects. It only affects creatures. A bomb, which is stat-ed out in the DMG, deals 2d6 damage, cannot crit, and allows a reflex save for half. Even if you tied 4 bombs together, the average damage is only half that of the average Annis hag's HP. This means, even if you could ctrit, it still wouldn't die as long as it made the dc 15 ref save (it has a +6 mod. BTW). And I am rounding your bomb up and the hag down to make it work. Annis hags have a speed of 40ft, so you would be unable to outrun one unless you were a monk or barbarian, or had taken feats to boost your speed, and it would take two feats to do enough for you to outrun one. A covey of hags have all sorts of nifty spells, which they apparently did not use. Aside from the divination made available to the covey, the green hag can turn invisible at will. A sea hag is soooo ugly, that looking at one entails a fort save or you take 2d6 str damage. That can take you down in one failed save. Even if you had litterally 'run' away, you would still be within the first range incriment of the hill giants 'throwing stone.' (a small boulder to you.) As for ogres... Well, compared to these other guys, they mostly just smell bad. But given that your wizard has between 4 (con 3) and 32 (con 18 & max HP) HP, they can still kill him in 1.5 hits. What you did was think creatively to solve a problem. That is good. You did not actually gain the experience of defeating the covey and that covey's minions, you just sorta lucked out. Maybe you cought them off gaurd (in which case they were less of a threat, like killing a sleeping dragon with a scythe swung by a smiting, power-attacking, raging paladin of freedom followed by a nat 1 on the dragons fort-save), or maybe they had already been in a fight with some mid-level adventurers today and were wounded (which is the kind of thing which best explains the insta-death varient), in any event, you get a fraction of the EXP because they were a fraction of the way prepared (or at least they were played that way, from the looks of it). If you can make head and tails out of all that (), you get full exp, anyway. Just keep in mind circumstances should affect the challenge of an experienced DM's game.