Balanced Party??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balanced Party??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BreegJac17
02-08-07, 05:31 PM This is the party I'm going to be playing in:

Half-Orc Barbarian
Elven Ranger (Ranged)
Human Rogue (TWf)
Human Druid (Me)
Human Cleric

What should the 6th player be? I know that wizard should be the most obvious choice, but my brother wants to be a duskblade. Would this be a balanced party, with him being a duskblade, or should he just become a wizard??

Any suggestions and opinions would be valued and appreciated.
bonethug0108
02-08-07, 05:39 PM Duskblade, iirc, doen't get many arcane spells. He is more of a fighter than a spellcater. That's fine if ya'll don't plan on running a high arcane type campaign.

As for a suggestion, I'm not to sure. What books do you have on hand from the complete series? Also, if you have the tome of magic, I've found the shadow caster to be an interesting play.
Johnny_Angel
02-08-07, 05:53 PM Bard
BreegJac17
02-08-07, 05:57 PM The only completes I don't have are : Arcane, Scoundrel, and Explorer.

But also wouldn't a Druid and a Cleric complement the spellcasting abilities of the duskblade nicely? After all druids are considered in some cases to be blasters.
rironin
02-08-07, 06:09 PM Many on these boards will say that the combined powers of the cleric and the druid will be able to solve many of the problems that you'd otherwise need a wizard around for. Johnny Angel had an excellent suggestion - a bard, perhaps with sublime chord, would have a decent number of arcane spells to fill in the gaps, and you have a bunch of guys who could benefit from buffs, esp with the ranger and rogue who will be making tons of attacks.
BreegJac17
02-08-07, 06:13 PM No one is defending the duskblade, is it any good or does it suck?

But my brother told me that he wants to have it have some melee skills but lots of arcane power. ( No sorc or Warlock though, he doesn't want to play one)
bonethug0108
02-08-07, 06:29 PM No one is defending the duskblade, is it any good or does it suck?

But my brother told me that he wants to have it have some melee skills but lots of arcane power. ( No sorc or Warlock though, he doesn't want to play one)

I'm not blasting it. It's just that one of my players was trying to play a spellcaster/fighter, and we found that the spellcasting aspect is very limited. It's not that it's good or bad, it's just more along the lines of a hexblade.

And yeah, I forgot about the bard. He would be a better balance of spellcasting and fighting. You could try warlock, although that is sort of a different thing all together.

And with the druid or cleric, you will not get the same level of spell fire power as a wizard/sorrceror. If you want, I would also suggest checking out the warmage. I believe that is in complete arcane.
Neutronium_Dragon
02-08-07, 06:33 PM Another option would be the Beguiler from the PHB2. Its spellcasting ability will dovetail nicely with what the cleric and druid can do, and it has a bit of combat ability. Provided that you coordinate with the party rogue and ranger, it can also fill in gaps in your party's skill portfolio.
rironin
02-08-07, 06:42 PM And with the druid or cleric, you will not get the same level of spell fire power as a wizard/sorrceror. If you want, I would also suggest checking out the warmage. I believe that is in complete arcane.You won't get the same spell fire power, at least not the kind of area effect spells, no. But with a party like you've got now, I would think that the principal reason you'd need a wizard would be for tech - magical detection, weird magical movement, etc. The cleric and the druid could probably pull off most of what you need in that regard. A warmage is all blasting, but zero tech. Warmages don't even get any defensive magic (though they can wear armor). It sounds like your brother might dig playing a warmage, or maybe some other gishy type mix. Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage makes me want to play a fighter/mage like there's no tomorrow (or just a high level elven wizard :P).

I agree with bonethug that a duskblade sounds a bit vanilla (not enough magic to make it cool, esp with all the melee guys you've already got). I still think a bard could benefit the party hugely.
BreegJac17
02-08-07, 06:52 PM Thank you for the suggestions, does anybody have any more?
bonethug0108
02-08-07, 06:53 PM I didn't mention the utility aspect:eek: Doh. I am typing between threads, so it slipped my mind. Thanks for catching it. Your'e right, with the current party, you don't really need much spell firepower.

So I would resuggest the bard, as many others have. It has utilitarian spells, but it doesn't get some of the powerful ones.

It's all about give and take. What are you willing to give up to get a fighting spellcaster.
BreegJac17
02-08-07, 07:01 PM I'm sorry BoneThug I don't understand your question.
bonethug0108
02-08-07, 07:21 PM I'm sorry BoneThug I don't understand your question.

It isn't really a question. It is more of a saying. Sorry to confuse you.

But if you want a question along those lines, then what is the balance between the two that you would like(or whoever the pc is for)? Are you looking 75% 25%? If so, then the duskblade may work. If you are looking closer to 50% 50%, then the bard is a good choice.
BlackZed
02-08-07, 07:24 PM Well, I don't know how people feel about it, but if he doesn't want to go with bard (despite their awesome capabilities, some people just don't like them. Like my husband. The bastard) I'd say grab the Tome of Battle and make up a Warblade for more melee-oriented or a Swordsage for a bit more oomph in the "almost magical" aspect. Granted, they're a bit more on the combat oriented rather than on the support end, but if he's looking for a combination of firepower and melee madness they're pretty potent. I made up a Yuan-ti Pureblood Swordsage, and prodded much buttock.

But first and foremost, I'd say talk him into a bard. Awesome support characters, awesome to back up a group and usually one of the best at getting a group out of a tight spot either in skills or in abilities. I owe a lot of successful quests to Bardic Knowledge.

And again, Tome of Battle provides some powerful characters, so it might be a bit of an unbalance to the characters already in existence. For pure spellcasting power, the Wu Jen is pretty prod buttock as well, but definitely not so much on the melee end with d4 hitpoints.
LoNLinaChan
02-08-07, 07:24 PM it depends on the flow of how you wanna roll. a straight wizard is what you really lack to be standard balance. for a multitude of reasons. big blast are nice. so is teleport. gate doesn't suck. if you want a high octane tank duskblade cuts though most. i personally like an arcane summoner (sadley just a focused wizard). but if you go wizard try to have fun with it complete arcane has nice feats might i suggest the sudden feats. then name it 1 T®ïçK þWñÿ.
Hack and Smasher
02-08-07, 07:54 PM Should be fine. The idea that the ideal balanced party is a fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard isn't the truth, the truth is as long as you've got plently of healing and the must have utily spells your golden.
Elemental_Elf
02-08-07, 08:02 PM Bard - You guys might need a great buffer, General Interaction Specialist, Extra Skill Monkey.

Sorcerer - Sorcerers are fun, which is a big bonus. They bring with them the power to use many spells and with a little money, you can use Wands and scrolls to supplement his lack of Spells Known.

Wizard - The best arcane caster. Metamagic feats, infinite spell list. He has it all. But many people find the Wizard to be boring (if you like generic hack-and-slash), so choose this class wisely.

Wu Jen - A more flavorful Arcane caster with many unique spells. perhaps not as powerful as the Wizard but still a great class.

Truthfully I would suggest a Bard or a Sorcerer if your games are oriented towards Hack and Slash. If your group is oriented towards anything else + Hack and Slash, then any would be a great add.
Generic Poster
02-08-07, 08:19 PM I think Duskblade is a decent choice. You won't have as good an artillery as you would with a wizard/sorcerer. However, you will have a second tank that will keep more pressure off the cleric/druids, allowing them to concentrate on spellcasting and not be forced to tank themselves.

Honestly your party is balanced enough that it is better to let him take whatever he wants as long as it doesn't duplicate another party member, since he'll do better playing a character that he wanted to play in the first place.

Yeah, you won't have flashy fireballs to throw around, but druids still have some significant damage spells and you'll be fine with damage output regardless. I would make it a point that everyone has a ranged weapon just in case though.
Jezmund
02-08-07, 08:24 PM Bard

Agreed.

As a rule, the more people there are in the party, the more effective the Bard is.

Also, if the Rogue and Cleric aren't geared toward conversational skills, the Bard makes a great party spokesman.
moscatabaco76
02-08-07, 08:33 PM The best choice is always what you want to play. Well, except fighter. Or bard, if the game is pure hack and slash. But duskblade is a decent choice.

From one druid to another, let me tell you that you don't *need* a wizard or sorcerer. They DO have much better firepower than druids, but you'll do fine. Check the spell compendium for spells like hypotermia (*LOVE* that spell); even if you're playing core only you'll get flame strike at 7th level.

The Rogue can serve as party spokesman; if not either you or the cleric can invest in Diplomacy (great skill to have - miss it and you'll have to be mute when dealing with NPCs).

In other words I do think you guys have most bases covered. And there's nothing worse for a player that negating him what he WANTS to play.
NerdNumber1
02-08-07, 08:39 PM Battle sorcerer!

Light armor, a free martial weapon, a d8 hit die, and a cleric's bab for the cost of a few known spells/spells per day. Same martial/arcane feel, but more weight to blowing things up! Bards are a bit too subtle to for my tastes, they feel more of a support class than a blaster.
BreegJac17
02-08-07, 10:15 PM Thank you all for your suggestions, you've all been a great help. :D
danielinthewolvesden
02-08-07, 10:45 PM Sorc.

Warlock. (esp if you allow the Warlock to take the Detect Magic Invocation from Dragon magic) Not as powerful, but perhaps the most fun.

Dragon Shaman, and take the optional aura from Dragon Magic that allows you the invocation that allows Detect Magic & Identify

Without a real arcanist, how do you Identify Magic items, Teleport, and Fly?

An extra divine caster can take the place of a tank pretty darn well, but an arcanist is harder- esp for those utility spells. I agree, they can blast almost as well.Yes, I know that with the right Domains, a cleric can sub, but you only get TWO domains and you can not change them.
Johnny_Angel
02-09-07, 03:46 AM If you want a more melee oriented character, be a Bard and take the War Chanter PrC from Complete Warrior; it makes the bard more similar to a melee type than other Bard PrCs do.

If you have Complete Adventurer -and you can convince your DM that you meet the special requirements- Seeker of The Song is an awesome Bard PrC.

If I knew what level you were starting out as, I could probably help more. I will say that I am not a Char Op expert, but what I can do is at least give you a few suggestions to build off (both mechanically and flavorwise) of once I know around what level you will be.
Black Kitten
02-09-07, 04:55 AM I would take an intelligent character with access to Knowledge skills to complete this group. You only need someone who is able to turn the most magical secrets into common knowledge. A bard or a wizard would be my suggestion and in my view, a Duskblade wouldn't fit that well.

However, I don't see why you would bar your brother from playing what he would like to play.
NerdNumber1
02-09-07, 09:45 AM Don't force him to play a character he doesn't want to, just show him some options. Like I said, the battle sorcerer is a great blaster that should hold its own in melee (I'm assuming he doesn't want to be a normal arcanist because they are weak phisically).
Johnny_Angel
02-09-07, 10:28 AM I wasn't trying to force anyone to play anything; as I said in my previous post, I was planning on offering a few suggestions. All of the suggestions given are just that - suggestions. As for me, I was simply asking that the OP give more information so that I could offer a more educated suggestion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BreegJac17 02-08-07, 05:31 PM	This is the party I'm going to be playing in: Half-Orc Barbarian Elven Ranger (Ranged) Human Rogue (TWf) Human Druid (Me) Human Cleric What should the 6th player be? I know that wizard should be the most obvious choice, but my brother wants to be a duskblade. Would this be a balanced party, with him being a duskblade, or should he just become a wizard?? Any suggestions and opinions would be valued and appreciated.
bonethug0108 02-08-07, 05:39 PM	Duskblade, iirc, doen't get many arcane spells. He is more of a fighter than a spellcater. That's fine if ya'll don't plan on running a high arcane type campaign. As for a suggestion, I'm not to sure. What books do you have on hand from the complete series? Also, if you have the tome of magic, I've found the shadow caster to be an interesting play.
Johnny_Angel 02-08-07, 05:53 PM	Bard
BreegJac17 02-08-07, 05:57 PM	The only completes I don't have are : Arcane, Scoundrel, and Explorer. But also wouldn't a Druid and a Cleric complement the spellcasting abilities of the duskblade nicely? After all druids are considered in some cases to be blasters.
rironin 02-08-07, 06:09 PM	Many on these boards will say that the combined powers of the cleric and the druid will be able to solve many of the problems that you'd otherwise need a wizard around for. Johnny Angel had an excellent suggestion - a bard, perhaps with sublime chord, would have a decent number of arcane spells to fill in the gaps, and you have a bunch of guys who could benefit from buffs, esp with the ranger and rogue who will be making tons of attacks.
BreegJac17 02-08-07, 06:13 PM	No one is defending the duskblade, is it any good or does it suck? But my brother told me that he wants to have it have some melee skills but lots of arcane power. ( No sorc or Warlock though, he doesn't want to play one)
bonethug0108 02-08-07, 06:29 PM	No one is defending the duskblade, is it any good or does it suck? But my brother told me that he wants to have it have some melee skills but lots of arcane power. ( No sorc or Warlock though, he doesn't want to play one) I'm not blasting it. It's just that one of my players was trying to play a spellcaster/fighter, and we found that the spellcasting aspect is very limited. It's not that it's good or bad, it's just more along the lines of a hexblade. And yeah, I forgot about the bard. He would be a better balance of spellcasting and fighting. You could try warlock, although that is sort of a different thing all together. And with the druid or cleric, you will not get the same level of spell fire power as a wizard/sorrceror. If you want, I would also suggest checking out the warmage. I believe that is in complete arcane.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-08-07, 06:33 PM	Another option would be the Beguiler from the PHB2. Its spellcasting ability will dovetail nicely with what the cleric and druid can do, and it has a bit of combat ability. Provided that you coordinate with the party rogue and ranger, it can also fill in gaps in your party's skill portfolio.
rironin 02-08-07, 06:42 PM	And with the druid or cleric, you will not get the same level of spell fire power as a wizard/sorrceror. If you want, I would also suggest checking out the warmage. I believe that is in complete arcane.You won't get the same spell fire power, at least not the kind of area effect spells, no. But with a party like you've got now, I would think that the principal reason you'd need a wizard would be for tech - magical detection, weird magical movement, etc. The cleric and the druid could probably pull off most of what you need in that regard. A warmage is all blasting, but zero tech. Warmages don't even get any defensive magic (though they can wear armor). It sounds like your brother might dig playing a warmage, or maybe some other gishy type mix. Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage makes me want to play a fighter/mage like there's no tomorrow (or just a high level elven wizard :P). I agree with bonethug that a duskblade sounds a bit vanilla (not enough magic to make it cool, esp with all the melee guys you've already got). I still think a bard could benefit the party hugely.
BreegJac17 02-08-07, 06:52 PM	Thank you for the suggestions, does anybody have any more?
bonethug0108 02-08-07, 06:53 PM	I didn't mention the utility aspect:eek: Doh. I am typing between threads, so it slipped my mind. Thanks for catching it. Your'e right, with the current party, you don't really need much spell firepower. So I would resuggest the bard, as many others have. It has utilitarian spells, but it doesn't get some of the powerful ones. It's all about give and take. What are you willing to give up to get a fighting spellcaster.
BreegJac17 02-08-07, 07:01 PM	I'm sorry BoneThug I don't understand your question.
bonethug0108 02-08-07, 07:21 PM	I'm sorry BoneThug I don't understand your question. It isn't really a question. It is more of a saying. Sorry to confuse you. But if you want a question along those lines, then what is the balance between the two that you would like(or whoever the pc is for)? Are you looking 75% 25%? If so, then the duskblade may work. If you are looking closer to 50% 50%, then the bard is a good choice.
BlackZed 02-08-07, 07:24 PM	Well, I don't know how people feel about it, but if he doesn't want to go with bard (despite their awesome capabilities, some people just don't like them. Like my husband. The bastard) I'd say grab the Tome of Battle and make up a Warblade for more melee-oriented or a Swordsage for a bit more oomph in the "almost magical" aspect. Granted, they're a bit more on the combat oriented rather than on the support end, but if he's looking for a combination of firepower and melee madness they're pretty potent. I made up a Yuan-ti Pureblood Swordsage, and prodded much buttock. But first and foremost, I'd say talk him into a bard. Awesome support characters, awesome to back up a group and usually one of the best at getting a group out of a tight spot either in skills or in abilities. I owe a lot of successful quests to Bardic Knowledge. And again, Tome of Battle provides some powerful characters, so it might be a bit of an unbalance to the characters already in existence. For pure spellcasting power, the Wu Jen is pretty prod buttock as well, but definitely not so much on the melee end with d4 hitpoints.
LoNLinaChan 02-08-07, 07:24 PM	it depends on the flow of how you wanna roll. a straight wizard is what you really lack to be standard balance. for a multitude of reasons. big blast are nice. so is teleport. gate doesn't suck. if you want a high octane tank duskblade cuts though most. i personally like an arcane summoner (sadley just a focused wizard). but if you go wizard try to have fun with it complete arcane has nice feats might i suggest the sudden feats. then name it 1 T®ïçK þWñÿ.
Hack and Smasher 02-08-07, 07:54 PM	Should be fine. The idea that the ideal balanced party is a fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard isn't the truth, the truth is as long as you've got plently of healing and the must have utily spells your golden.
Elemental_Elf 02-08-07, 08:02 PM	Bard - You guys might need a great buffer, General Interaction Specialist, Extra Skill Monkey. Sorcerer - Sorcerers are fun, which is a big bonus. They bring with them the power to use many spells and with a little money, you can use Wands and scrolls to supplement his lack of Spells Known. Wizard - The best arcane caster. Metamagic feats, infinite spell list. He has it all. But many people find the Wizard to be boring (if you like generic hack-and-slash), so choose this class wisely. Wu Jen - A more flavorful Arcane caster with many unique spells. perhaps not as powerful as the Wizard but still a great class. Truthfully I would suggest a Bard or a Sorcerer if your games are oriented towards Hack and Slash. If your group is oriented towards anything else + Hack and Slash, then any would be a great add.
Generic Poster 02-08-07, 08:19 PM	I think Duskblade is a decent choice. You won't have as good an artillery as you would with a wizard/sorcerer. However, you will have a second tank that will keep more pressure off the cleric/druids, allowing them to concentrate on spellcasting and not be forced to tank themselves. Honestly your party is balanced enough that it is better to let him take whatever he wants as long as it doesn't duplicate another party member, since he'll do better playing a character that he wanted to play in the first place. Yeah, you won't have flashy fireballs to throw around, but druids still have some significant damage spells and you'll be fine with damage output regardless. I would make it a point that everyone has a ranged weapon just in case though.
Jezmund 02-08-07, 08:24 PM	Bard Agreed. As a rule, the more people there are in the party, the more effective the Bard is. Also, if the Rogue and Cleric aren't geared toward conversational skills, the Bard makes a great party spokesman.
moscatabaco76 02-08-07, 08:33 PM	The best choice is always what you want to play. Well, except fighter. Or bard, if the game is pure hack and slash. But duskblade is a decent choice. From one druid to another, let me tell you that you don't need a wizard or sorcerer. They DO have much better firepower than druids, but you'll do fine. Check the spell compendium for spells like hypotermia (LOVE that spell); even if you're playing core only you'll get flame strike at 7th level. The Rogue can serve as party spokesman; if not either you or the cleric can invest in Diplomacy (great skill to have - miss it and you'll have to be mute when dealing with NPCs). In other words I do think you guys have most bases covered. And there's nothing worse for a player that negating him what he WANTS to play.
NerdNumber1 02-08-07, 08:39 PM	Battle sorcerer! Light armor, a free martial weapon, a d8 hit die, and a cleric's bab for the cost of a few known spells/spells per day. Same martial/arcane feel, but more weight to blowing things up! Bards are a bit too subtle to for my tastes, they feel more of a support class than a blaster.
BreegJac17 02-08-07, 10:15 PM	Thank you all for your suggestions, you've all been a great help. :D
danielinthewolvesden 02-08-07, 10:45 PM	Sorc. Warlock. (esp if you allow the Warlock to take the Detect Magic Invocation from Dragon magic) Not as powerful, but perhaps the most fun. Dragon Shaman, and take the optional aura from Dragon Magic that allows you the invocation that allows Detect Magic & Identify Without a real arcanist, how do you Identify Magic items, Teleport, and Fly? An extra divine caster can take the place of a tank pretty darn well, but an arcanist is harder- esp for those utility spells. I agree, they can blast almost as well.Yes, I know that with the right Domains, a cleric can sub, but you only get TWO domains and you can not change them.
Johnny_Angel 02-09-07, 03:46 AM	If you want a more melee oriented character, be a Bard and take the War Chanter PrC from Complete Warrior; it makes the bard more similar to a melee type than other Bard PrCs do. If you have Complete Adventurer -and you can convince your DM that you meet the special requirements- Seeker of The Song is an awesome Bard PrC. If I knew what level you were starting out as, I could probably help more. I will say that I am not a Char Op expert, but what I can do is at least give you a few suggestions to build off (both mechanically and flavorwise) of once I know around what level you will be.
Black Kitten 02-09-07, 04:55 AM	I would take an intelligent character with access to Knowledge skills to complete this group. You only need someone who is able to turn the most magical secrets into common knowledge. A bard or a wizard would be my suggestion and in my view, a Duskblade wouldn't fit that well. However, I don't see why you would bar your brother from playing what he would like to play.
NerdNumber1 02-09-07, 09:45 AM	Don't force him to play a character he doesn't want to, just show him some options. Like I said, the battle sorcerer is a great blaster that should hold its own in melee (I'm assuming he doesn't want to be a normal arcanist because they are weak phisically).
Johnny_Angel 02-09-07, 10:28 AM	I wasn't trying to force anyone to play anything; as I said in my previous post, I was planning on offering a few suggestions. All of the suggestions given are just that - suggestions. As for me, I was simply asking that the OP give more information so that I could offer a more educated suggestion.