Balancing Blindness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balancing Blindness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ibbins
05-06-05, 10:55 PM Wasn't sure where to post this, I figured this fits since it's in preparation for making a new character. IMO, It doesn't belong under Char Optimization since blindness isn't optimum, is it? Anyway...

My question is, how could you balance a blind warrior-type (most likely going to be either a monk or ranger). I thought giving blindfight and blindsense as bonus feats(not sure if blindsense exists as a feat actually), but not blindsight. I figure that would still be a severe disadvantage to the blind dude; just wanted some help on the matter.
rhflyweyr
05-07-05, 08:15 AM Hum, well i have actually played a blind monk before. And here's the deal:

Dont try to balance it. I assume this voluntary choice is for roleplaying and not rollplaying reasons.

At first level, your one feat (though you might get a human one) will be blind fight. Make sure you get skill ranks in listen (so you have some clue whats going on)... and obviously if you get ranks in spot then bob the tiki god will come down and hit you with a hammer.

Anyway, getting side tracked. Half the fun of the character is that you dont really have a good grasp of position. If you 'balance it' then your character will just be different, but can operate too normally in the group. As a blind character, at early levels you will be heavily reliant on the other members of the group (which is a good thing because you will be trusted and soem of the 'glue' for the group). Eventually you can get other feats to lessen the disability... but whatever you do, dont try to effectively get rid of it.
snowlynx
05-07-05, 08:24 AM Here is my thought on this:
Give the character blind-fight as a bonus feat, since this comes naturally to someone who has had to learn their enviroment without seeing.
Do nothing else for the character.
Why? Firstly, there is apparently a class somewhere that negates all the sorts of penalties for being blind. There are also spells (One in complete adventurer, and one in Savage species, and probably others as well) that give blindsense. Secondly, since the player chose to have their character be blind, it's a disadvantage the player has put upon themselves; not something the DM really has to compensate for. Third, being blind presents the DM with a major headache: they must describe the scene quite differently to the blind character since the blind character must pick up on smell, touch, and hearing in order to come up with what is in the room. While this might cause them DM to become better at descriptions in the long run, it doesn't change the fact that they have to cater to one character's specifics.

If I was sure the player was not trying to take blindness for the abilities, with the intention of somehow negating it later, I might give them a +2 bonus on hearing checks (to compensate for their inablility to make spot checks.) I would NOT give them blindsense; I'm certain some people would suddenly turn their blind characters into a killing machine, finding some way to carry around something that casts 'darkness'....
Ibbins
05-07-05, 08:44 AM Alrighty then. Thanks for your input.
Santrilla
05-07-05, 08:59 AM There was a prestige class presented in a Dragon magazine some time ago, the one about Drow, called the Grey Sage. Basically his skit was that he was blind, but gained some sorts of bonuses like improved blindsense as a compensating factor. Give me a second and I'll find out which issue it was.

EDIT: Here we go. Gray Sage (stupid american spelling), Dragon issue #298, p.58-60.
11d7
05-07-05, 09:11 AM The issue is that why would they be blind for very long? It only takes a level 2 spell to restore sight to the blind, even natural one, even if it was that their eyes were torn out.
Santrilla
05-07-05, 09:11 AM The issue is that why would they be blind for very long? It only takes a level 2 spell to restore sight to the blind, even natural one, even if it was that their eyes were torn out.

Spoilsport. :P
Ibbins
05-07-05, 09:43 AM Spoilsport. :P

Indeed.

Divine magic takes the fun and significance out of everything...blindness, curses, diseases, and death. Sigh....
Sargon
05-09-05, 02:41 AM There is some power that lets you feel everything around you.. I don't have a expanded psionics hand book around.. but i know its something.. a character in a game i'm playing does it all the time.. like when its dark and he doesn't want a torch becasue that would attract attention.
Ibbins
05-09-05, 07:53 AM Synthsete, I think. It completely defeats the purpose of having a blind character.

You guys convinced me that I'll take no benefits, except possibly a +2 bonus on listen checks or something.
Morka
05-09-05, 09:11 AM The issue is that why would they be blind for very long? It only takes a level 2 spell to restore sight to the blind, even natural one, even if it was that their eyes were torn out.

How can you restore something the character never had? I mean, if the character is born blind, then there's nothing to do for this. Could you restore the wings on an human? No, he never got it. (Not the best argument, but it's just to show how he can still play it.)

In the SRD, there's a general feat in the Divine section, I don't know from which book it is coming. Here it is:
BLINDSIGHT,5-FT.RADIUS [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +4, Blind-Fight, Wisdom 19.

Benefit: Using senses such as acute hearing and sensitivity to vibrations, you detect the location of opponents who are no more than 5 feet away from you. Invisibility and darkness are irrelevant, though it you discern incorporeal beings.
Arquinsiel
05-09-05, 09:53 AM Watch the Father Ted episode where they're all on a plane. It'll educate you.

EDIT: just in case you don't get it, pay extra attention to the blind priest.
TheUnknownZombie
05-09-05, 10:34 AM I don't know if you'd want to do this, but why not take Zen Archery and allow it to apply to melee attacks as well as ranged ones? House rule that this greatly lessens the miss chance (by 20% or so). The disadvantage is that Wisdom is usually a secondary dump stat for Fighters. Would work well for a Monk though.
Draco Strang
05-09-05, 10:38 AM Work some sort of deal so the player attains increasing levels of blindsense as he increases in level.

Or, you could pull a Montolio (from the Drizzt Trilogy) and just get an animal companion that does your spotting for you.
Aeromus
05-09-05, 10:39 AM God, blind is sooo easy to counter. Take it like this.

Gnome/Half-Orc
any class
Take "scent" as a feat for first level.

Never have the penalties of beng blind within 30 feet.
weasel fierce
05-09-05, 04:57 PM I wouldnt balance it. Being blind is a debilitating weakness. If a player wants the challenge of playing that, more power to him.
Ibbins
05-09-05, 06:06 PM Like I said, I decided to leave it at having minimal balancing factors.

I don't know if you'd want to do this, but why not take Zen Archery and allow it to apply to melee attacks as well as ranged ones? House rule that this greatly lessens the miss chance (by 20% or so). The disadvantage is that Wisdom is usually a secondary dump stat for Fighters. Would work well for a Monk though.

Er, how does Zen archery affect miss chance from blindness?
Even so, taking that feat would be a good idea since I plan to have a really high Wisdom.
Or, you could pull a Montolio (from the Drizzt Trilogy) and just get an animal companion that does your spotting for you.
Yea, I'll have to pass on that one. Down with Drizzt(and buds) wannabes!
snowlynx
05-10-05, 09:44 AM blind fight as a free feat is the easiest 'balacing factor' I can think of- it kinda negates invisibility, but it's also a feat that becomes mostly useless if the character acquires some sort of ability that allows them to 'see without sight'. Thus, even if the character finds some loophole that allows them to see via some 'sixth sense', the blind-fight feat doesn't suddenly make them more powerful then the other characters.
Moon-Lancer
05-10-05, 09:59 AM in boed thier is a feat that lets you use wis for hitting (replaces strangth for hitting)

Its called intutive strike. The idea is that your letting intuition fight for you. You dont aim attacks, you just let your intutiveness take over. I dont know if this has anything to do with being blind. I dont think it negates the penaltys. Also, in the players guild, it does talk about letting you use listen to find out were creatures are. it just lets you know of thier presense. Is thier another book that talks about rules for allowing listen to pinpoint location. The reasion i ask is i think thier is a feat that lets you pinpoint locations by using sounds. I think its in compleat adventurer.
TheUnknownZombie
05-10-05, 03:39 PM Er, how does Zen archery affect miss chance from blindness?
Even so, taking that feat would be a good idea since I plan to have a really high Wisdom.
Sorry, I worded it badly. I was trying to say that if you took the Blind Fighting feat and combined it with a version of Zen Archery (ie using Wisdom as you combat stat), then you could house rule that it reduces the miss chance. Like I said, it may not be as useful for Fighters as your Str and Dex will generally be lower if you use Wisdom as one of your primary stats, meaning you'll be doing less damage and/or be hit more often due to a lower AC.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ibbins 05-06-05, 10:55 PM	Wasn't sure where to post this, I figured this fits since it's in preparation for making a new character. IMO, It doesn't belong under Char Optimization since blindness isn't optimum, is it? Anyway... My question is, how could you balance a blind warrior-type (most likely going to be either a monk or ranger). I thought giving blindfight and blindsense as bonus feats(not sure if blindsense exists as a feat actually), but not blindsight. I figure that would still be a severe disadvantage to the blind dude; just wanted some help on the matter.
rhflyweyr 05-07-05, 08:15 AM	Hum, well i have actually played a blind monk before. And here's the deal: Dont try to balance it. I assume this voluntary choice is for roleplaying and not rollplaying reasons. At first level, your one feat (though you might get a human one) will be blind fight. Make sure you get skill ranks in listen (so you have some clue whats going on)... and obviously if you get ranks in spot then bob the tiki god will come down and hit you with a hammer. Anyway, getting side tracked. Half the fun of the character is that you dont really have a good grasp of position. If you 'balance it' then your character will just be different, but can operate too normally in the group. As a blind character, at early levels you will be heavily reliant on the other members of the group (which is a good thing because you will be trusted and soem of the 'glue' for the group). Eventually you can get other feats to lessen the disability... but whatever you do, dont try to effectively get rid of it.
snowlynx 05-07-05, 08:24 AM	Here is my thought on this: Give the character blind-fight as a bonus feat, since this comes naturally to someone who has had to learn their enviroment without seeing. Do nothing else for the character. Why? Firstly, there is apparently a class somewhere that negates all the sorts of penalties for being blind. There are also spells (One in complete adventurer, and one in Savage species, and probably others as well) that give blindsense. Secondly, since the player chose to have their character be blind, it's a disadvantage the player has put upon themselves; not something the DM really has to compensate for. Third, being blind presents the DM with a major headache: they must describe the scene quite differently to the blind character since the blind character must pick up on smell, touch, and hearing in order to come up with what is in the room. While this might cause them DM to become better at descriptions in the long run, it doesn't change the fact that they have to cater to one character's specifics. If I was sure the player was not trying to take blindness for the abilities, with the intention of somehow negating it later, I might give them a +2 bonus on hearing checks (to compensate for their inablility to make spot checks.) I would NOT give them blindsense; I'm certain some people would suddenly turn their blind characters into a killing machine, finding some way to carry around something that casts 'darkness'....
Ibbins 05-07-05, 08:44 AM	Alrighty then. Thanks for your input.
Santrilla 05-07-05, 08:59 AM	There was a prestige class presented in a Dragon magazine some time ago, the one about Drow, called the Grey Sage. Basically his skit was that he was blind, but gained some sorts of bonuses like improved blindsense as a compensating factor. Give me a second and I'll find out which issue it was. EDIT: Here we go. Gray Sage (stupid american spelling), Dragon issue #298, p.58-60.
11d7 05-07-05, 09:11 AM	The issue is that why would they be blind for very long? It only takes a level 2 spell to restore sight to the blind, even natural one, even if it was that their eyes were torn out.
Santrilla 05-07-05, 09:11 AM	The issue is that why would they be blind for very long? It only takes a level 2 spell to restore sight to the blind, even natural one, even if it was that their eyes were torn out. Spoilsport. :P
Ibbins 05-07-05, 09:43 AM	Spoilsport. :P Indeed. Divine magic takes the fun and significance out of everything...blindness, curses, diseases, and death. Sigh....
Sargon 05-09-05, 02:41 AM	There is some power that lets you feel everything around you.. I don't have a expanded psionics hand book around.. but i know its something.. a character in a game i'm playing does it all the time.. like when its dark and he doesn't want a torch becasue that would attract attention.
Ibbins 05-09-05, 07:53 AM	Synthsete, I think. It completely defeats the purpose of having a blind character. You guys convinced me that I'll take no benefits, except possibly a +2 bonus on listen checks or something.
Morka 05-09-05, 09:11 AM	The issue is that why would they be blind for very long? It only takes a level 2 spell to restore sight to the blind, even natural one, even if it was that their eyes were torn out. How can you restore something the character never had? I mean, if the character is born blind, then there's nothing to do for this. Could you restore the wings on an human? No, he never got it. (Not the best argument, but it's just to show how he can still play it.) In the SRD, there's a general feat in the Divine section, I don't know from which book it is coming. Here it is: BLINDSIGHT,5-FT.RADIUS [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +4, Blind-Fight, Wisdom 19. Benefit: Using senses such as acute hearing and sensitivity to vibrations, you detect the location of opponents who are no more than 5 feet away from you. Invisibility and darkness are irrelevant, though it you discern incorporeal beings.
Arquinsiel 05-09-05, 09:53 AM	Watch the Father Ted episode where they're all on a plane. It'll educate you. EDIT: just in case you don't get it, pay extra attention to the blind priest.
TheUnknownZombie 05-09-05, 10:34 AM	I don't know if you'd want to do this, but why not take Zen Archery and allow it to apply to melee attacks as well as ranged ones? House rule that this greatly lessens the miss chance (by 20% or so). The disadvantage is that Wisdom is usually a secondary dump stat for Fighters. Would work well for a Monk though.
Draco Strang 05-09-05, 10:38 AM	Work some sort of deal so the player attains increasing levels of blindsense as he increases in level. Or, you could pull a Montolio (from the Drizzt Trilogy) and just get an animal companion that does your spotting for you.
Aeromus 05-09-05, 10:39 AM	God, blind is sooo easy to counter. Take it like this. Gnome/Half-Orc any class Take "scent" as a feat for first level. Never have the penalties of beng blind within 30 feet.
weasel fierce 05-09-05, 04:57 PM	I wouldnt balance it. Being blind is a debilitating weakness. If a player wants the challenge of playing that, more power to him.
Ibbins 05-09-05, 06:06 PM	Like I said, I decided to leave it at having minimal balancing factors. I don't know if you'd want to do this, but why not take Zen Archery and allow it to apply to melee attacks as well as ranged ones? House rule that this greatly lessens the miss chance (by 20% or so). The disadvantage is that Wisdom is usually a secondary dump stat for Fighters. Would work well for a Monk though. Er, how does Zen archery affect miss chance from blindness? Even so, taking that feat would be a good idea since I plan to have a really high Wisdom. Or, you could pull a Montolio (from the Drizzt Trilogy) and just get an animal companion that does your spotting for you. Yea, I'll have to pass on that one. Down with Drizzt(and buds) wannabes!
snowlynx 05-10-05, 09:44 AM	blind fight as a free feat is the easiest 'balacing factor' I can think of- it kinda negates invisibility, but it's also a feat that becomes mostly useless if the character acquires some sort of ability that allows them to 'see without sight'. Thus, even if the character finds some loophole that allows them to see via some 'sixth sense', the blind-fight feat doesn't suddenly make them more powerful then the other characters.
Moon-Lancer 05-10-05, 09:59 AM	in boed thier is a feat that lets you use wis for hitting (replaces strangth for hitting) Its called intutive strike. The idea is that your letting intuition fight for you. You dont aim attacks, you just let your intutiveness take over. I dont know if this has anything to do with being blind. I dont think it negates the penaltys. Also, in the players guild, it does talk about letting you use listen to find out were creatures are. it just lets you know of thier presense. Is thier another book that talks about rules for allowing listen to pinpoint location. The reasion i ask is i think thier is a feat that lets you pinpoint locations by using sounds. I think its in compleat adventurer.
TheUnknownZombie 05-10-05, 03:39 PM	Er, how does Zen archery affect miss chance from blindness? Even so, taking that feat would be a good idea since I plan to have a really high Wisdom. Sorry, I worded it badly. I was trying to say that if you took the Blind Fighting feat and combined it with a version of Zen Archery (ie using Wisdom as you combat stat), then you could house rule that it reduces the miss chance. Like I said, it may not be as useful for Fighters as your Str and Dex will generally be lower if you use Wisdom as one of your primary stats, meaning you'll be doing less damage and/or be hit more often due to a lower AC.