Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quartermain 01-16-05, 05:57 PM	So in today's session I (and my character, for that matter) was really looking forward to fighting a big pyrohydra with lots of firey death being spread around. What does our mage do? Baleful polymorph in the first round (nat 20 on initiative. Go team.)and the hydra fails both saves...so we're facing down a fearsome and legendary puppy instead of our great monster. Lame. Seems pretty powerful for a fourth level spell, especially if the mage cranks up the DC. I know this isn't unique to my experience. Opinions on this very wonderful spell?
11d7 01-16-05, 05:59 PM	Remeber all other classes are just there to protect the mage once your past a certian level and since you were fighting a pyrohydra I think your past it.
HyperVyperBeam 01-16-05, 07:00 PM	You know what is REALLY lame? Teleport. Baleful Polymorph is just another save or die spell like the other 57 of them, nothing special. If he just saved, there wouldn't be a problem. Well, the wizard would have had the problem right in his face. I hate hold person, and its big brother, hold monster. I'm trying to ban those spells, I hate them. People cast it on your character than get free turns to touch your character's most prized possessions and all they can do is stare and feel violated. The long term emotional reprecussions are enormous. I'm starting a petition to ban these spells from existence. The petition is just plain cheaper than a 40k ring of free movement. But seriously, teleport is SO lame. My character bought an abjurer with a wand of Dimension Anchor for this exact reason. Fortunately he was cheap.
Kaboth 01-16-05, 07:47 PM	Well what some are seeming to forget... When a wizard starts off, they are not exactly in the upper echelon of power. So they have to bide their time to increase their power and contribute to the group. Yes they can do some in the early levels but they are limited until then. A DM has the right to modify anything in game, if this was supposed to be one of your big bad monsters, if not THE big bad monster. He can modify his dice roles for whatever reason. Call it an act of god if you will. Third, you have to remember things bout these spells... What a player can do, a NPC or monster can do. If you DM NEVER does hold person or poly spells against the PC group then hes being nice. Its been my expereince, when people are upset over a spell its usually because someone didnt get to show of their strength and power and got showed up. So, they end up despising that, but when the Fit hits the Shan and their power is not working and those spells save they day, boy do they sure love them.
Quartermain 01-16-05, 08:23 PM	Well what some are seeming to forget... When a wizard starts off, they are not exactly in the upper echelon of power. So they have to bide their time to increase their power and contribute to the group. Yes they can do some in the early levels but they are limited until then. A DM has the right to modify anything in game, if this was supposed to be one of your big bad monsters, if not THE big bad monster. He can modify his dice roles for whatever reason. Call it an act of god if you will. Third, you have to remember things bout these spells... What a player can do, a NPC or monster can do. If you DM NEVER does hold person or poly spells against the PC group then hes being nice. Its been my expereince, when people are upset over a spell its usually because someone didnt get to show of their strength and power and got showed up. So, they end up despising that, but when the Fit hits the Shan and their power is not working and those spells save they day, boy do they sure love them. It wasn't quite that...I just wanted a fight. Being a kensai with a piercing weapon, I wasn't exactly going to be the star of any show vs. a hydra.
11d7 01-16-05, 08:25 PM	Just rember, take your percing weapon and stand right where it best surves to protect the mage. :)
Kaboth 01-16-05, 08:33 PM	It wasn't quite that...I just wanted a fight. Being a kensai with a piercing weapon, I wasn't exactly going to be the star of any show vs. a hydra. Well even still, SOMETIMES, stuff happens and the mage can get lucky. You ought to hear an old story where my mage polymorphed a great wyrm red dragon in to a mushroom once. The fact is I just got REALLY lucky, luck, it happens as well. The counter to the story is the DM randomly rolled the treasure for the Dragon, I swear it was so small ya could P over it with ease.
e-z0r 01-16-05, 09:03 PM	A DM has the right to modify anything in game, if this was supposed to be one of your big bad monsters, if not THE big bad monster. He can modify his dice roles for whatever reason. Call it an act of god if you will. No he doesn't. And if he does, I'll sure as hell call him a lousy DM. Why would he modify a saving throw? I believe a DM should build a world and it's monsters to react consistently and reasonably without cheating the PCs. No, I don't mean every monster should be the same carbon copy of the MM one. On the contrary, it's fun to have changes and challenges. But this should be reflected as a bigger monster with a larger save modifier instead of a mock roll and a DM's decision on whether a spell passes or not. It would really make me want to stop even trying if the DM just gets to decide whether your spells work or not, instead of having a chance. However slim or good. A DM should forget about "I want". "I want this monster to dodge that spell and be a bigger challenge. I want this and that to happen like so". DM's just choosing how well the PCs succeed makes the PCs feel that they can't affect world, but rather it's the DM will that the whole story and encounters is working for.
Kaboth 01-16-05, 09:13 PM	OH I see, so you wouldnt mind at all of the books and/or movies you read with the excitement building up when the big bad guy pops out and.... PLOP.... this big dramatic fight is over in one spell? No fuss no muss... people are going WTF? Why were we afraid of that? Yea I can see it now, Sauron comes up to swing his mace and just at that time some low level wizard cast his spell... HOLY SMOKES HE ROLLS A 1!!!!! Thats its okay he will make his next Save.... OMFG!!! He rolled another 1!!!!!! Okay so thus ends the tale of Sauron... Sorry, I happily disagree, its not cheating to make the challenge worthwhile for the PC's. The DM has the RIGHT to make any changes in the game he so desires. If the PC's are having fun and dont know whats going on, then what they dont know wont hurt them.
greentiger 01-16-05, 10:38 PM	I'm sorry, this is not a novel. Things don't always happen for the protagonist. They call it a role-playing game for a reason; you have to roleplay with whatever happens. Personally, if every campaign were guaranteed a giant dramatic ending with the party being triumphant, I think I would cease wasting my time. This game plays like the real world. There are no special biases or guarantees (at least not in my world). Besides, it being randomly determined is half the fun. Just sit back and roll with the punches and stop expecting a plot chart (exposition, rising action, climax, falling action, resolution) because life or DnD would no fun in that format all the time.
Kaboth 01-16-05, 11:04 PM	You must have it your head that I said do this ALL the time. I never said that... I never said gear the game for the PC's to win... You talk about RP but its also storyline that is just as important... Hell you can go to vegas if you like just sheer randomness of dice... You dont need DnD for that.... I highly disagree that the game is not a novel, there is a story line to it whether you like it or not. Meaning there is a plot, there is the story, there is the protagonist, villians, etc... Just because you RP it out doesnt not mean there is no story to go on. There is no guarentee you and your party will be successful but chances are you will be, it is a fact. If you think it is not designed that way then you are highly delusional my friend. For accomplishments are what keeps people interested in the game, not failure. This does not mean make it so damn easy they get complacent about it either. Hell any monkey can roll dice and follow rules for a adventure, the DM's job is to make sure his players have fun and the game is challenging but yet not be cruel. Look, if your group likes that, then go for it, I have no room to say otherwise, but I think your game is very lacking then if you have no storyline (aka Novel) to follow. If by chance the players always got lucky and all the big bad fights were finished in one round. You think thats fun... If thats the case let me go over to my special magic Monty Haul tree here and lets start your 1st level character off with 5 magic items of your choosing.
greentiger 01-16-05, 11:42 PM	I certainly see your stance, and I pray that you see mine. I'm sorry if I seemed litte bit moody, but I am an avid spellcaster player, mainly wizards. Speaking from experience, I know what it is like. I probably would have used my shiny new spell against the tough Hydra if for no other reason than to show off my new toy, not to mention that it would save me my precious (and very few) HP. A Wizard is moderately weak for the beginning of his career. Once he reaches the point when he CAN, he WILL. Besides, I don't see why you would want to fight with piercing weapons against a hydra. Besides, now you have a pet puppy. :D :D No hard feelings man. I just thought that you comparing a DnD game to an epic classic novel was kind of weird, seeing as there is no definite winner or loser until the end comes.
Kaboth 01-17-05, 12:09 AM	Well in 2E I played almost exclusively Wizards, then 3E came out and I diversify, but I still have a passion for wizards. I am playing one now in this new campaign, and yes I know what you mean about using your new flashy spells. I also certainly know how it feels when your spells crap out too... I have seen everything... My main point to the thread though... is that Baleful Polymoprh is not to powerful and stuff happens. However, on the same note, I would have not have let the encounter go so easily if I was the DM and if that was the big encounter, I would have altered something to give the group a challenge. Now I might let that slide sometimes depending on other situations just to let the wizard strut his stuff so to speak. But the group likes to particpate and feel like they contributed. I dont know how to explain it other than that. I dont think you were being moody so no harm no foul. Although there is no clear winner or loser in DnD, the chances are the PC group will come out victorious. Sometimes there are losses though, just recently we had a tough fight, 7 PC's, 2 died, 3 almost died. We almost lost that fight, 2 clerics were left standing with no spells and both very low on HP. That was amazing and thrilling and exciting. My PC was one that almost died, I was at neg 9 in HP and still wasnt stablized when they finished. I barely made it and lived. Would I have been disappointed if I died, yes, but I would have just gone to make a new character and worked up again. I would have been staisfied because I did everything I could for that fight.
Solidcobra 01-17-05, 03:24 AM	Wizards are cheap. no, really? You don't say? Wizards ruin the game and the fun for the rest, no, really? When'd that happen? Since the beginning of 3e, possibly earlier? Whoa. Yes, wizards suck. YES the DM should've just said "wohoo! a 20", since every DM with a brain rolls behind the shield. But, hey, in a game with a wizard, your character should just stay BEHIND the wizard. When he complains, just say that he took out a hydra with the wave of a hand and a few words, 6-7 raging archdemons shouldn't be a problem. :D Yes, i'm a constant wizard-hater. Not as much as i hate psions. both have the "oh my, you didn't roll a 20, we win!" factor. Both make the game about as fun as watching paint dry for the others. I say this... Roll a new character. a frenzied berserker. yup. with a sword of wrathful healing and an amulet of sadism. Yup... now abuse him and deal some 10d6+800 damage/round. If the wizard complains, say that he doesn't even have to roll dice to own monsters with cheap powers. :-D You're strong. he's mad. win-win situation.
Madmartigan 01-17-05, 04:26 AM	How exactly would one turn that "puppy" back into a Hydra?
Thonili_Moonbringer 01-17-05, 04:53 AM	In the interest of dynamic gameplay, I'm not adverse to adding a few spontaneous conditional modifiers to a mob's save. Maybe I'm just a selfish DM, but I think the effect when the lich-king nimbly dodges around a PC's falling meteors is much better than when he's struck in the head and knocked cold right in the middle of assembling his gemstone of demon-thralling. Though the point of the game is to emulate a true-to-life fantasy world, I'm willing to let the realism slip just a bit in order to make the game more engaging.
Reticent 01-17-05, 04:56 AM	Vitamins? (Puppy to hydra vitamins that is.) It would have been reasonable for the DM to spring an additional challenge at that point to keep the game interesting. Hey, if you end up having to kill the hydra's angry mate that just means double XP and treasure, right? Cheating the save throw would in this case really just be punishing the wizard for taking a save-or-die spell, but a DM still has a responsibility to make sure all the players are having fun.
Thonili_Moonbringer 01-17-05, 06:34 AM	Agreed on all points. Yet the punishment isn't limited to the wizard--a mob's AC might jump a point or two to avoid the fighter's 20-20-confirm kill, or it may be a few pounds lighter to avoid collapsing the bridge that the druid's animal companion weakened. While I don't take these DM liberties very often, when I do I make sure it enhances the game. Of course, it goes the other way too. If a PC paladin spent a lengthy sidequest acquiring a blade that strikes fear into the scaly hearts of kobolds on sight, and the first three kobolds he sees save on some miraculous rolls, one or two of them are going to head for the hills anyway.
TheUnknownZombie 01-17-05, 06:58 AM	Reward the lucky spell use, but adapt so as to not let the rest of the party down. Dragon is now small, furry, yapping and chasing its tail? Well done team, but that horde of henchmen streaming out of the next cave over look a bit annoyed. Or its mate may be on its way home.
Gemstone 01-17-05, 07:22 AM	I've never been a fan of save or die spells. When 3.0 came out, they took away some of the greatest save or die spells, such as Disintegration, but they still hav e spells such as Destruction, Finger of death etc. There are other save or die spells to, which ruins the game equaly (only if the DM can't handel them) Blindess/Deafness - Still among the weirest spells out there... PERMANENT?!? one of my personal favourites...
e-z0r 01-17-05, 08:32 AM	So Kaboth, effectively you are house ruling an added piece of text to Baleful Polymorph (and other save-or-dies or such) that says "Doesn't work against BBEG's".
Quartermain 01-17-05, 08:50 AM	So Kaboth, effectively you are house ruling an added piece of text to Baleful Polymorph (and other save-or-dies or such) that says "Doesn't work against BBEG's". Wins the thread! Baleful polymorph being permanent...blah. However, one of the party fighters and the paladin/cleric are keeping it as a pet. The hydra was tamed by powerful Zhentarim. Random dispel from the bushes! RAWR! Too bad I'm not the DM :gah:
Leibel 01-17-05, 09:02 AM	Okay wizards and/or save or die spells annoy you - it's called Spell Resistance. Yes from a rollplaying perspective wizards dominate after Level 9 but making every monster have SR hurts them. Yes it's unrealistic to have every single undead be spell stitched but it forces the party to rely on all the non-wizards as well(why my undead are spell stitched). Also it takes pressure off the wizard(did it occur to you it's annoying for a wizard when everyone else says - oh he'll just cone of cold or dominate the baddies so I'll just hang out in the rear and twiddle my thumbs). Baleful Polymorph is lame but usually the non-wizard PC's are happy when it's successful. And a high Fort save can make a wizard failing this disasterous for the wizard.
angryman 01-17-05, 09:30 AM	OH I see, so you wouldnt mind at all of the books and/or movies you read with the excitement building up when the big bad guy pops out and.... PLOP.... this big dramatic fight is over in one spell? Good book plots do not neccessarily make a good roleplaying session. As a DM, I never modify the rolls I make- you are there to REFEREE the game and direct the action, not keep your pet NPC alive (that all the PCs think is a wanker). I despise a DM who doctors rolls to suit his needs, drama be damned. If you're a good DM, you'll get over it- there's always another BBEG.
e-z0r 01-17-05, 10:58 AM	Good book plots do not neccessarily make a good roleplaying session. As a DM, I never modify the rolls I make- you are there to REFEREE the game and direct the action, not keep your pet NPC alive (that all the PCs think is a wanker). I despise a DM who doctors rolls to suit his needs, drama be damned. If you're a good DM, you'll get over it- there's always another BBEG. Amen, bud! If you want the monster to be challenging even for a wizard with save-or-dies, you give it SR and a big save mod. What you don't do is fudge up the rolls because you just "think it shouldn't fall for that in the first few rounds". Because if you start doing that you might as well just tell the wizard's player to sit tight 'til the DM says "Now you cast the spell and he's turned into a chicken". Not only are you giving the NPC temporary immunity to a spell, you're almost but not entirely dominating the player's character. If I were playing the wizard I'd just say "Right. I'll be in the kitchen making some coffee. Mr DM Sir, would you holler when you think it's okay for me to come cast the spell?"
Jagyr Ebonwood 01-17-05, 01:02 PM	I look at it this way: Leave the roll as is, and disappoint everyone except the wizard, -or- fudge the roll, and disappoint only the wizard. And in the second scenario, the wizard might have something else up his sleeve to make up for his wasted spell (a 7d6 lightning bolt, for example). Of course, if this was a relatively unimportant encounter, I would consider making it more challenging in a different way (bringing in a mate, etc.). This kind of ad hoc DMing is essentially the same as fudging a roll (you change something after you see the result of the die). However, if the hydra was a BBEG or climactic battle, I wouldn't hesitate to fudge a roll. I like to find the perfect balance of story/game, and having a BBEG die in the first six seconds that the PCs walk into the room goes too far. It cheats the players out of a good story.
Gemstone 01-17-05, 01:23 PM	Amen, bud! If you want the monster to be challenging even for a wizard with save-or-dies, you give it SR and a big save mod. What you don't do is fudge up the rolls because you just "think it shouldn't fall for that in the first few rounds". Because if you start doing that you might as well just tell the wizard's player to sit tight 'til the DM says "Now you cast the spell and he's turned into a chicken". Not only are you giving the NPC temporary immunity to a spell, you're almost but not entirely dominating the player's character. If I were playing the wizard I'd just say "Right. I'll be in the kitchen making some coffee. Mr DM Sir, would you holler when you think it's okay for me to come cast the spell?" As a DM your first and most important job is to make the game fun for both you and the players. Did the result of this spell end up with something good for the plot? No. Did the result of the spell make all the players have a good time? Except the wizard, probably no on that too. The secret with DMing is to DM in a way that let your players believe that everything they do somewhat effects the surroundings. If a player goes around and tries to make himself famous, he will be famous, even if it doesn't affect the game. Now, lets look on this situation... There are one big boss Hydra to kill, the climax of the adventure. The players are eager for the fight (or should be) because this is the final battle, the final confrontation that will end the entire adventure. The first thing that happens is that the wizard cast Balephul pholymorph (fjollymorph =P) which turns the Hydra into a dog... Climax goes down in a moment, as if hit by Tysons grandest punch. Perhaps it may be funny, the players could laugh at it, but still its not a climatic battle which is threatening to all the characters. Every BBEG encounter is meant to be memorable, remembered by the characters as: "Remember when we fought Kharakus, the arch cleric? I didn't think we would make it out of there alive..." Not: "Remember that Hydra? *laughs*" As a DM (with several years of experience, 10 to be more exact) I would have fudged the roll, but I would still make it somewhat useful... perhaps the Hydra coils back, provoking AOO when doing so because of the blinding flash... But turn it into a puppy, reducing the value of the encounter into nothing, no way
lparks 01-17-05, 01:43 PM	Do you nerfers allow vorpal weapons to succeed? Tough to fake that one when the PC is making the rolls so I'm curious how you handle it. The save bonuses/spell resistance for a monster is calculated into its challenge rating. You should be taking that into account when you design these final grand battles of yours. If you don't, at least have the common decency to tell the wizard not to bother preparing the spells that offend your sense of drama.
e-z0r 01-17-05, 01:49 PM	Gemstone, I realize that different people like different things and have different styles of play. If your players like it when you play their characters and write a big climactic story while they sit and watch, then so be it, I've nothing against that. It's just not what I like. Not even as a fighting character would I like to see the wizard get crap on him 'cause he threw a spell that would spoil the DM's well-developed suspense. It's not nice to see someone get shunned just because he can do impressive stuff while the rest of us can hack stuff with swords.
Thoronmir 01-17-05, 02:32 PM	Every campaign I run tells a story. But the plot points are interspersed and the party has plenty of leeway as they move along the story arc. That said, I don’t think I’ve ever set up a campaign plot that was dependent on the party defeating the BBEG. All that the story requires is that they face the BBEG. So, I feel no need to tweak the dice rolls during the encounter. If I’m going to take an interest in who wins the battle or how long the battle lasts, I’ll do so while I’m devising the encounter. If I fail to consider all of the PCs’ abilities, then I’ve failed as a DM. If I’ve overlooked some spell or tactic, then the party deserves to have an easy time of it.
MrkGrismer 01-17-05, 02:48 PM	Perment can be dispelled. This is why my cardinel rule is: Never alone! BBEGs have to have BBEF (Big-bad-evil-flunkies), and maybe even partners in evil (especially if LE). If you BP a PC into a squirrel you can betcha they will be dispelling that the first chance they get, why should the opposition be any different?
Aricandor 01-17-05, 03:58 PM	Meh. Baleful Polymorph isn't really that impressive. A player of mine got hit by it, failed both saves (Two 2's...). A couple of spells later she was back. No biggie. Enemies can do the same you know. That wizard won't be so happy if one of the enemies casts it on HIM...
Kaboth 01-17-05, 09:16 PM	Well I guess we will have a difference of opinion here. I have had many different groups, played DnD 1st, 2nd and 3E editions WHEN they came out. DM'ed all three sets for over 20 years with various players. With what I know, the adventure and story line is what kept groups together the longest if they are good ones. Accomplishment and participation of all players in the gaming is the next biggest thing. Lastly its obtaining items/wealth and leveling up is the least important. I am sorry you think that if I alter something for fun is me being a bad DM. I am not about to send them through 6 adventures and at the end of those adventures they come up to the BBEG and blam... its over in one spell. Yes I agree that all things considered you can try to anticipate player ability for the fight and work things so suprises will not happen. Angryman, I never think of the adventure NPC's are mine nor do I think they are my pets. Why must people take things to such extremes? You think that proves a point and makes you smart? I said I MIGHT alter a role and if it was a big fight for ALL the PC's to participate in. Are you saying you NEVER been disappointed in your life over anything? E-Zor, A DM has the right and the ability to make just about any alterations the feel are neccessary. I am not house ruling save or die spells at all, I am saying I, again let me repeat this because people obviously missed this part of my message... I MIGHT make an alteration to have the encounter work for the party. Finally, I completely disagree, DnD is not a damn football game. A DM is not to referee a game. I said it before any monkey can run an adventure and stick to the rules for the gaming group. I dont care how well planned you think your adventure is, PC's will always be able to suprise you and toss a monkey wrench in to your best plans. So what do you do then, tell your party... "no no no no, you cant do that, rewind, you must go this way" Or do you adapt and make changes and go with the flow? It takes a tremendous DM to tell a story that engrosses the party and enthralls them to go through the adventure. A GM is there to conduct and compose the game session much like a composer having the orchestra play a masterpiece. IF you do it right, the PC's will remember events in each adventure for years to come and tell stories about it.
anomaly_agent 01-17-05, 10:14 PM	As a DM, I personally would be disappointed. If I DM I would try to create a memorable struggle for the players, not a laughable anticlimatic sputter. But things like that happen. DMs should prepare for insane contingencies like that. But overall I wouldn't blame the spell itself. I enjoy the concept of the traditional wizard turning people into frogs deal. It gives it a fairy tale twinge, which is a refreshing change from the cookie-cutter Tolkien rip-off crap that a lot of modern fantasy has turned out to be. But I digress. >_> Since the game is based on chance and not JUST story line, insane and ridiculous stuff like this happens, because it's possible to happen. IMO, recovering from that seamlessly and still providing an interesting challenge for the players is the mark of a good DM.
Aeromus 01-17-05, 11:27 PM	Final Fantasy is a role playing game. Those bosses are immune to insta-kill spells. Is that a coincendence? I think not.
Phrennzy 01-18-05, 01:19 AM	The Pyro-Hydra was the BBEG? I highly doubt that. Maybe his steed or something, but not the BBEG. No, the BBEG, to be a match for the baleful polymorph wielding party, has spell resistance or a ring of spell turning, or any number of defenses. If the BBEG is a dumb animal, there's a problem. I wouldn't fudge. Let the wizard have his moment. It's not like the fighters won't have something to fight in the next room.
MoogleEmpMog 01-18-05, 01:30 AM	If I ran D&D spellcasting - this being yet another of myriad reasons why I don't - I'd fudge if the hydra was a boss enemy. Most likely, with a pyrohydra, I'd say that the spell polymorphs several of the snapping maws into harmless garden snakes, and that its fire breath seems to be disabled. But the already magical creature seems to react in an unstable manner to the spell - one of those disabled heads is twitching... If a player wants to off a boss (not necessarily a BBEG, there's a difference) in one hit, he'll need some good tactics, not one of the legion of cheesy insta-kill effects such as baleful polymorph or a vorpal weapon.
Vapthorne 01-18-05, 01:49 AM	Final Fantasy is a role playing game. Those bosses are immune to insta-kill spells. Is that a coincendence? I think not. Following that train of thought, you have cases like this! (http://rpgworldcomic.com/d/20030528.html) Fudging rolls will lead to meta-gaming when players believe the DnD game follows the laws of the Console RPG game. The mage gambled and was just lucky in terms of Init. and the hydra's unlucky saving rolls. Several posters have the right idea for improvement; design a BBEG with better defenses. Spell Resistance, lackeys, heck even just a +5 luck bonus for being the BBEG. Phrennzy, also hot the nail: it should had been something other than a dumb beast.
e-z0r 01-18-05, 02:22 AM	With what I know, the adventure and story line is what kept groups together the longest if they are good ones. Accomplishment and participation of all players in the gaming is the next biggest thing. Lastly its obtaining items/wealth and leveling up is the least important. To our group, the story is also important. What's more important is that the game world is consistent instead of suddenly and - frankly, unfairly - ran by the whims of the DM. I am sorry you think that if I alter something for fun is me being a bad DM. I am not about to send them through 6 adventures and at the end of those adventures they come up to the BBEG and blam... its over in one spell. Yes I agree that all things considered you can try to anticipate player ability for the fight and work things so suprises will not happen. Indeed. In my opinion, if you take the trouble of building up a plot for six adventures, you could go through the trouble of actually designing your BBEG's beforehand, seeing as after six adventures you should already know the ins and outs of the party your DMing for. E-Zor, A DM has the right and the ability to make just about any alterations the feel are neccessary. I am not house ruling save or die spells at all, I am saying I, again let me repeat this because people obviously missed this part of my message... I MIGHT make an alteration to have the encounter work for the party. Indeed, with special emphasis in my opinion on the "just about". What right the DM does NOT have, in my opinion, is to tell the players "sorry, you can't cast that spell yet because it doesn't fit my plan for this battle. You need to wait until I deem the fighters have hacked at it enough so it will get to hurt them and cost you plenty of healing potions and the cleric's daily allotment of spells. Maybe I'll call you when it's okay to cast it or something. You could play Zelda on the Gamecube on the living room while you're waiting or sth." Finally, I completely disagree, DnD is not a damn football game. A DM is not to referee a game. I said it before any monkey can run an adventure and stick to the rules for the gaming group. I dont care how well planned you think your adventure is, PC's will always be able to suprise you and toss a monkey wrench in to your best plans. So what do you do then, tell your party... "no no no no, you cant do that, rewind, you must go this way" Or do you adapt and make changes and go with the flow? "No no, see, the epic battle we have been waiting for is down THAT corridor and you must go there so the story arc will be complete!" No but I completely agree that a DM is not merely a referee. A DM is a machinator, a puppet master, an artist, an entertainer, a referee and many more things. For a while, I have had this idea of a DMing style that I haven't yet completely tried out. Step 1: Build a world. (This is the hard part. Essentially I'm thinking big: Make almost every location you're letting the PCs go to, make NPCs with motivations, problems, aspirations. Make the dungeons, monsters etc.) Step 2: Put the PCs in it. Step 3: Watch. Now, with a good group and a realistic enough world with interesting plot hooks, the adventure and epic tale should write itself. I'm not sure, though. It takes a tremendous DM to tell a story that engrosses the party and enthralls them to go through the adventure. A GM is there to conduct and compose the game session much like a composer having the orchestra play a masterpiece. IF you do it right, the PC's will remember events in each adventure for years to come and tell stories about it. I'd much rather compare D&D to a blues jamming session than an orchestra. An orchestra uses a set of notes that are played to the letter. Much like a book which goes on from beginning to end with no variation. The same every time you read it again. The main characters in it can't even make any different choices if they wanted to. Talk about railroading to the max. Where a blues jam bases on the basic rhythm and mood, yet gets it's soul from the improvisation. The flow of feeling. That's the kind of game I want to play in, as a player. A game where the musicians (the players) have an actual say in what it is they're going to play, what comes out of the amplifiers. Instead of playing in an orchestra where you just play your part as best you can.
TripleF 01-18-05, 02:56 AM	OH I see, so you wouldnt mind at all of the books and/or movies you read with the excitement building up when the big bad guy pops out and.... PLOP.... this big dramatic fight is over in one spell? Good book plots do not neccessarily make a good roleplaying session. As a DM, I never modify the rolls I make- you are there to REFEREE the game and direct the action, not keep your pet NPC alive (that all the PCs think is a wanker). I despise a DM who doctors rolls to suit his needs, drama be damned. If you're a good DM, you'll get over it- there's always another BBEG. Amen. Also, if DM's are fudging left and right then ultimately that limits the spell caster to just casting spells that do hit point damage. The complainers should think of this as the wizards version a full attack with multiple critical hits. For players that get pissy when something like this happens, you are not thinking very much in character. A character should always be greatful when a great foe is downed quickly, regardless of how.
Gemstone 01-18-05, 09:25 AM	Gemstone, I realize that different people like different things and have different styles of play. If your players like it when you play their characters and write a big climactic story while they sit and watch, then so be it, I've nothing against that. It's just not what I like. Not even as a fighting character would I like to see the wizard get crap on him 'cause he threw a spell that would spoil the DM's well-developed suspense. It's not nice to see someone get shunned just because he can do impressive stuff while the rest of us can hack stuff with swords. Well, first of all, I would let the spell succed, if it was fired of in the middle of combat. not at the beginning.
Gemstone 01-18-05, 09:33 AM	Amen. Also, if DM's are fudging left and right then ultimately that limits the spell caster to just casting spells that do hit point damage. The complainers should think of this as the wizards version a full attack with multiple critical hits. For players that get pissy when something like this happens, you are not thinking very much in character. A character should always be greatful when a great foe is downed quickly, regardless of how. I think that what most of us on the fudge side is trying to say, is that its okay for a roll to be fudged if it takes the story forward and makes it better. Myself am of those who thinks that BBEG battle's can be fudged in favor of the story.
e-z0r 01-18-05, 11:08 AM	Well, first of all, I would let the spell succed, if it was fired of in the middle of combat. not at the beginning. So, once again, in effect, you are telling the wizard "No, this spell can't work until I tell you it can work." That would suck so bad. I'm serious. As a player I'd really just go make some coffee and tell the DM to shout when it's okay for Mr Tolkien-wannabe that the battle ends.
Kaboth 01-18-05, 11:30 AM	damn what do you to your DM stand over his shoulder and make sure he does his job right? If hes rolling behind a screen you wouldnt know what hes rolling or not. Unless you are that **** about it and make him roll in the open. Its about trust, trusting your DM you game will be fun. WHo really gives a crap about the dice rolls. One adventure I tossed random dice for the heck it and just made things up the entire adventure. Wether it was a hit, miss, saves....whatever. I asked my PC's how much fun they had and they said it was the best damn adventure they had done in a long time. I did JUST to see if they would have fun, it was an experiment and it worked. E-zor I swear you act like we are saying hose every spell a wizard has... You are taking this to extremes and honestly it makes you look foolish IMO. Either that, or a spoiled child that is going to take his toys home if he doesnt get his way. I play wizards too, and I know they can take the fun out of everything for a group especially at higher levels. Heck, I expect my DM to throw things at us so I cant just go boom your dead.
e-z0r 01-18-05, 07:00 PM	damn what do you to your DM stand over his shoulder and make sure he does his job right? If hes rolling behind a screen you wouldnt know what hes rolling or not. Unless you are that **** about it and make him roll in the open. Its about trust, trusting your DM you game will be fun. WHo really gives a crap about the dice rolls. No, I don't stand over my DM's shoulder. I agree, trust is great. If I found out my DM is lying to me about what he rolls, do you think I'd trust him? No. I don't trust liars. E-zor I swear you act like we are saying hose every spell a wizard has... You are taking this to extremes and honestly it makes you look foolish IMO. Either that, or a spoiled child that is going to take his toys home if he doesnt get his way. No, you're not hosing every spell a wizard has, and that's the fricking problem. If you hosed every spell equally, everyone would know not to play a wizard. NOW you just lead the wizard on to thinking he can do nice stuff with magic and then deny it when it doesn't fit your storyline. Well, I don't know if you actually do this or not, but you said that you would if it came to it. And no, I'm not taking it to the extremes. You might understand it that way, but I'm not. I'm merely seeing it for what it is. Consider it this way: A spell only works if the monster fails it's saving throw. The DM decides the monster makes it's save (even though it didn't). Without all the fancy twists of words it's possible to put on it, this means that the DM says that the wizard's spell doesn't work. Now this, IMO, isn't right. The DM could ban the spell. The DM could make the monster spell resistant. Whatever. Just plain saying that "what you're trying to do with this cannot work since it will be anti-climactic" isn't right. I'm not saying it's doomful and a complete cockup of the entire campaign, but it's not right. If I were DMing, I'd try to make it up to the player. If I were playing, I'd expect the DM to make it up for me. A wizard gets two spells every level. If I took baleful polymorph, I expect to be able to change it to something else if it's nonfunctional against the big opponents (which is why I took it - A spell with a single target is useless in a standard dungeon. It's meant for big enemies which would otherwise be dangerous to the party). I may be a spoiled kid to you, but I'm not trying to say that "My baleful polymorph must be effective or else I'll go home and not talk to you again." No way! Actually I DON'T expect the baleful polymorph to work. But I expect to have a CHANCE that it might work, or I expect to be told that this doesn't have a chance to work so I can select another spell. I do build my characters' mechanical representation on the grounds that the game mechanics function lawfully and reasonably in a game with so many choices. Especially around complex things such as magic. I feel like I'm getting cheated if the game world is "rigged", so to speak. Imagine yourself playing roulette: You had slim chances of success to begin with, yet you decided to play anyway - Who knows, you MIGHT just get lucky! Only later you find out that the game was rigged the whole time and you really had no chance of ever winning. Wouldn't that make you angry? Or at least disappointed.
Jagyr Ebonwood 01-18-05, 07:22 PM	So, once again, in effect, you are telling the wizard "No, this spell can't work until I tell you it can work." The key is that you're not actually telling him anything. If you actually said "It failed it's save, but I'll let it act like it saved anyway", well, that's just mean. But if you roll behind your screen, like any good DM should, know one knows what the actual roll is, and you're free to decide that the hydra's +5 boss competence bonus on saves will kick in whenever you want. It's not whether or not you fudge, but whether or not you tell your players when you do it. The most important thing is that the everyone has fun. If all the players would have fun watching the wizard zap the boss monster in one round, then fine, don't fudge anything. But if you think it would annoy the players (like it did the OP), then go ahead and fudge it a little. As long as everyone's happy, what they don't know won't hurt them. I'm not suggesting (and I don't think anyone else here is) that a DM should fudge every save or die roll. But fudging one roll, during a boss battle, isn't that bad. And I'll make it up to them later when a random orc accidentally maxes a critical in the first round.
e-z0r 01-18-05, 07:33 PM	The key is that you're not actually telling him anything. If you actually said "It failed it's save, but I'll let it act like it saved anyway", well, that's just mean. But if you roll behind your screen, like any good DM should, know one knows what the actual roll is, and you're free to decide that the hydra's +5 boss competence bonus on saves will kick in whenever you want. It's not whether or not you fudge, but whether or not you tell your players when you do it. Ignorance is bliss, say you? Knowledge creates pain. I do understand that as a player, I wouldn't know if the DM fudged it. As a DM, the players wouldn't know I fudged it. That's what makes it tempting. But if, as a player, I found out that he DID, it would feel approximately the same as having played in a rigged roulette table. Without the sting of losing money, but with the sting of knowing that my friend and DM lied to me. And like I said, I don't trust persons that lie. And as said, DM-Player trust is a good thing to have. The most important thing is that the everyone has fun. If all the players would have fun watching the wizard zap the boss monster in one round, then fine, don't fudge anything. But if you think it would annoy the players (like it did the OP), then go ahead and fudge it a little. As long as everyone's happy, what they don't know won't hurt them. I agree a hundred percent. That's why I've tried to keep up the "in my opinions" and "I feel that"s. And I'm not as rigid as it necessarily seems. I would go along with a DM who said he wanted that the end battles are epic and grand. What I'm arguing with is the whimsical "he makes his save 'cuz I say so". There are actual mechanical tools to accomplish such things, like SR and save mods. It's why a tarrasque is hard to baleful polymorph and a kobold is easy to. I'm not suggesting (and I don't think anyone else here is) that a DM should fudge every save or die roll. But fudging one roll, during a boss battle, isn't that bad. And I'll make it up to them later when a random orc accidentally maxes a critical in the first round. Eh? Because you decide to make a BBEG match harder, you feel obliged to make up for it by having the next orc bashing the cleric's skull in? I didn't get it. I think I just misunderstood that.
Shard of Suzail 01-18-05, 07:35 PM	Our group jut ran smack bang into this "magical glass ceiling" with our gm. He's not been keeping up with the progression of our characters and he needs to sit back and work out how to change his game accordingly. We had to travel a vast distance and, it being just after the campaign finale, we were battered and knew we may not survive the journey back. Especially considering that we levelled up twice on the way to our current location, because it was such a rough trip. So we decided to teleport back. The gm had not antcipated this and he`d written a little scenario where we joined up with a caravan and were attacked by genies. Our main wizard couldnt take the whole party though. Hilariously, the DMpc was also a wizard and we got him to learn the spell and take the rest of us. In the end, we got back and spent the session talking to our employers and in some quite good roleplay. We had to wrestle with the gm for a half hour to cast those teleports before he gave in and let us use the spell. I as a cleric now have a spell that lets me go to the planes. The gm refuses to let me do this as "he doesnt know about the planes". However, he isnt going to put any time into doing some research or even making up some stuff. Basically, the spell doesnt fit his game and thus it doesnt work. More and more of our spells are falling into this list of "doesnt fit, doesnt work" to the point where we are starting to feel that we are being capped at level 10 or so and that the game will stay the same for ever. This is a shame because we are just starting to be impressed by the wonderous things we can do. It is frustrating when the gm pulls the rug out from under our feet and disables a spell because it stops an encounter short. As such, we need every advantage we get and we have one character die every 3 weeks, so we`d rather avoid that. In this case, if we were facing the hydra, we`d want it down ASAP because otherwise, we`d be looking at a dead character and maybe more. The gm is giving us chunky monsters, but not seeing that our fancy spells are the only things keeping us alive. We dont enjoy combat, we loathe it. I dont care how powergamed and min maxed someone is when they join our group now, i dont even care if they can roleplay. I just want them between me and the beasts. It's all very well having a "dramatic book ending", but we arent the heroes. We are the extras who get mashed. I`ll take every edge i can get.
e-z0r 01-18-05, 07:57 PM	You're still off well as a cleric who gets all the spells of a given level, where the wizzie can only pick two/level (plus what he finds in scrolls ofc), and gets screwed if the DM says a spell can't work (it's 50% of his spells for a given lvl, hey.) If there aren't any scrolls around, he's even more screwed than sorcerers, who're supposed to be the one with less spells.
pawtucket_pat 01-18-05, 07:59 PM	Just curious, what level was the wizard and how many heads did the hydra have?
ShadowDragon8685 01-18-05, 08:12 PM	I agree with E-z0r, and I sympathize with Shard of Suziel. Look, you fighters are telling me that you've never been in encounters where you didn't run straight up and hack and slash the monsters into chop suey before the wizard even got a turn in? You're telling me that you weren't doing everything at level 4 and he maybe got in one combat spell a day? Sometimes pyrohydras become puppies. Deal with it. It's not the end of the world. Shoulder your sword again, clap the wizard on the back and laugh. You should be thankful that you're not risking life and limb. Who knows what'll happen next time? Loot the horde, capture or kill the puppy, and enjoy an easy time of things. It's totally unreasonable for the DM to say "It dosen't work" when the Pyrohydra failed his save, or for him to say "I won't let it work on the first round." Deal with it. If you're not going to abide the rules of the game, then don't frelling play. Go play freeform somewhere, or write a story.
e-z0r 01-18-05, 08:19 PM	clap the wizard on the back and laugh... ...while the cleric mends the wizard's broken ribcage after that clap..
Jagyr Ebonwood 01-18-05, 10:05 PM	I do understand that as a player, I wouldn't know if the DM fudged it ... But if, as a player, I found out that he DID, it would feel...the sting of knowing that my friend and DM lied to me. And like I said, I don't trust persons that lie. And as said, DM-Player trust is a good thing to have. I see it slightly differently than you. I believe that it is part of the DM's job description to fudge something if he feels it's necessary. NOT whenever something goes how he didn't intend it to, but when he feels its in the interest of the group as a whole. I wouldn't feel slighted if the DM was just doing his job, which is how i see it. I feel that DMs should have a certain amount of room available to them outside the rules. In fact, one of my favorite DMs (my current one) runs his campaign with little regard to the rules. Everything kind of runs along freeform, and we reference the rules when we really need to. (This doesn't sound like your kind of campaign, we obviously differ in that regard :P ) I agree a hundred percent. That's why I've tried to keep up the "in my opinions" and "I feel that"s. Agreed. :) Eh? Because you decide to make a BBEG match harder, you feel obliged to make up for it by having the next orc bashing the cleric's skull in? I didn't get it. I think I just misunderstood that. Haha. Yes, you misunderstood, allow me to clarify my point. :) What I meant was that I believe in fudging in both directions. Maybe the boss hydra's roll suddenly goes up during the first round of battle. And maybe when the initiative-winning orc is about to critical hit the wizard's head in the first round of the next battle, his roll will suddenly drop and he'll miss (or do less damage). In either scenario, if the rolls are left as is, it takes away some excitement from the players. It's not exciting for only one person to have a turn and the battle be done, nor is it exciting to be dead or incapacitated before you even get to act. So, the moral of my story is this, I suppose. I believe in fudging rolls when: -It makes the game more fun/exciting -The players don't know about it (knowing you're being helped or hurt ruins the fun too) -You have a group that is not opposed to the DMs right to fudge. If your group wants everything done by the rules, then you should do it that way instead. This of course goes back to the first point about fun/excitement.
Kaboth 01-18-05, 10:51 PM	You have to remember sometimes I do things for the PC's as well. If they get a bad roll on a big spell, I might use a different spell (if it was NOT spellcrafted) or I might toss something in the adventure to fix it too... If a DM rolls behnd a screen and doesnt let you see his module, how in the hell are you going to know he fudges something unelss he tells you he did... And no GOOD DM would just tell his players, he made the Save cus I said so... it would be "whats the DC on that spell?" *DM tosses dice* oh he just made it.... and like someone said before, I might toss an extra big bad monster in on the way back and hope the wizard tries again... and then have the monster fail that save....or something so that the Wizard can have his glory too... Its about checks and balances.... I guess no one has picked up on the fact I play wizards too and said this multiple times considering people keep trying to insinuate I am a wzard hater. I am not one, I love the power they can weild and how flashy they can be.. Here is an example of DM making something autosave... If you have been in this situation before or similar. You meet the BBEG for the first time in module and he supposed to escape he encounter. A player has intiative and picked up a spell or item during the course of the adventure that was unexpected, lets a say vorpal sword for a melee type and a big spell for a caster. If the melee had the range to get a charge or something and critted lets say and you forgot (Ever forget, happen to you, well it happens to me.) to put something to protect them from decapitaitons. Well it just happens they have something... and BBEG escapes to continue the adventure. Same for a spell or many other scenario's...
MrkGrismer 01-18-05, 11:14 PM	Here is an example of DM making something autosave... If you have been in this situation before or similar. You meet the BBEG for the first time in module and he supposed to escape he encounter. You see, therein lies the problem. It shouldn't take long to realize that non-PCs have little chance of surviving an encounter with the PCs. The only time the PCs should meet the BBEG is when they have a chance to defeat it. Otherwise, illusions, projections, messengers, lackies, simulcarcums, whatever. If the BBEG must live to do something important to the adventure/story then the BBEG must not come anywhere near striking distance from the PCs (and should also have protections from scrying and legend lores as well - I recommend rings of mind shielding, they are nice and cheap).
Jagyr Ebonwood 01-18-05, 11:56 PM	You see, therein lies the problem. It shouldn't take long to realize that non-PCs have little chance of surviving an encounter with the PCs. The only time the PCs should meet the BBEG is when they have a chance to defeat it. Just thought that I'd point out that Kaboth specifically mentioned a module. If you're in a situation where you are using a module without alterations, you might have to have the BBEG meet the PCs, because that's how the module goes. I've often had to use a module because of lack of prep time for an evening. Boy would I be annoyed if a player slaughtered the BBEG before he was "supposed" to :P That would leave us with an evening of very little to do...maybe play a round or two of Munchkin, hehe. Yeah, that sounds to me like a reasonable excuse to fudge a save up in the BBEG favor, or maybe have his hit dice gain some weight suddenly :P
TexasFriedCriminal 01-19-05, 03:19 AM	A possible sollution woudl be to house rule that a a spell takes a number of standart actions equal to it's level, whereby a full round action would cover 2 of those actions.
angryman 01-19-05, 03:43 AM	Angryman, I never think of the adventure NPC's are mine nor do I think they are my pets. Why must people take things to such extremes? You think that proves a point and makes you smart? I said I MIGHT alter a role and if it was a big fight for ALL the PC's to participate in. Are you saying you NEVER been disappointed in your life over anything? Kaboth, your conclusion doesn't mesh with your argument. Why would I as a DM be disappointed if my (pet) NPC died? I have blank character sheets, I can make another NPC. Moreover, I usually design BBEG encounters so the party won't run in and pop the BBEG like a zit on their first action. And as a final note, most of the fights I remember are the ones that were interesting and memorable, both the long, drawn out ones, and the short and quick ones where the mighty foe was dropped by one well-placed spell. Most recently, there was a half fiendish old red dragon who was killed in the second round by a death spell, we all enjoyed that! So what exactly is your problem? Whatever it is, get over it.
Kaboth 01-19-05, 04:10 AM	OKay, 1st off, this sint my thread. The OP was saying Baleful Poly was too powerful. I Disagreed with that fact and said it was fine. Yes I stradle the fence on certain situations and this is one of them. Again, I didnt state I would fudge a roll every time. I said I MIGHT alter a roll dependent on the situation. Quite a few of you are taking my words completely out of context. I dont make changes all the time, usually I will leave things as they may, sometimes an encounter I designed might be too difficult and it needs to be altered there. It works both ways with the ultimate goal that everyone has fun. I will leave it here that we agree that we disagree. My players have fun and that is the ultimate goal of the game. I make mid game alterations (much as a quarterback might make an audible during the down) as I see fit. If they have fun I am happy.
starfire311 01-19-05, 11:10 AM	Personally I hate fudging die rolls... if the npcs don't ahve to play by the same rules as mthe PCs it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth... I also hate it when NPCs pull punches. Example in the last game I played(I am playing a dwarf Fighter/Barbarian/champion of Gwynhawrf) We come a across some monster... we detected it as evil before it saw us... so I charged it(no one else was able to get close) and got in a good lick in... then when it went it did something as a free action... turns out I failed my save and I ended up paralyzed. Well this wasn't looking good for me so it takes a full-round action and coup de graces me. I wasn't happy about this at all. This wasn't even a BBEG just some supid monster we came across. Well there I am pushing up daisies. After the game the DM told me he was sorry. I told him he shouldn't be, I would have been more upset if he had changed the effect of the ability that was used or if he had pulled his punches and not killed me. My point is if the players don't get to auto save when they die in the first round of combat then niether do the NPCs.
Andrew_980 01-19-05, 12:06 PM	ok time for my 2 cents LET IT WORK IT FAILED THE SAVE THATS WHAT HAPPENS chances are that wizard barely harms the average significant foes as they USUALLY make the save. let him enjoy the fact it worked, the warrior types will get plenty of fun on the next one, dont whine. DMs dont fudge(cheat) any more than neccisary, he got lucky. the next time he may fail to even hurt the enemy. this is his second in the limelight, the warriors will get their turn, provide foes that are tailored to the pc, maybe the next will have SR
was_fired 01-19-05, 03:36 PM	As a DM and as a player I can't stand cheating. Fudging rolls is just that, cheating. The single most memorable BBEG battle my players got into was resolved with a death effect. First round: Blink, Second Round: Hold Monster, Third Round Coup de Grace. That fallen god didn't last very long at all against their epic might and epic luck. After the battle I decided to calculate the odds of this attack working. The answer 0.1824%. No one expected hold monster to work against him, but it did and it held for two rounds after breaking SR, avoiding the blink miss chance, and then the player managed to hit with the coup de grace despite the 20% miss chance, and the fallen god fell for good. Nothing was fudged, there was no cheating involved in the least, but I will never forget this battle and I don't think the players will either.
spasheridan 01-19-05, 07:30 PM	Back to the original poster's comment about the save or die spells being lame... let's examine all of the save or die powers in the game: 1) CDG. Any CDG forces a fort save or death. 2) Death Attack. Certain classes have this as an ability 3) Vorpal Weapons. 4) Massive Damage (optional) 5) Spells. 6) Critical Hits with x4 weapons that can inflict 100 pts in 1 hit (that should take out a bunch of enemies with 1 blow) SO.. after looking at this list of all the ways someone can take out an opponent with a single hit / effect you feel that spells are the only one that's abusable. Even though there are more defenses against spells than any of the other ways to inflict instant death. About all of the posters who would fudge die rolls to make 1st round kills of the BBEG not-work... do you do it the other way? If the PC's stumble onto a symbol of death, do they auto-save the first round they encounter it? If the PCs stumble apon a monster with a death attack (bodak???) do the PCs auto-save their first round? I mean, the PCs are more heroic to the game / story then the BBEG, they're the main characters in the game / story, shouldn't they be the ones who get the writers luck more then the villan who was put in the story to be defeated?? All I have to say is that in any encounter, 1 opponent vs the party is almost always bad news for the 1 opponent. THat's just the way it is. And those encounters are the ones I save my save or die spells for. At high levels the balance is easily tipped and a smart spellcaster will save their big guns for big targets. SUre, drop those flame strikes and fireballs on the minions, but my finger of death is not targetting the nameless guard, it's targetting the named enemy who's dishing out the hurt on the PCs. AND you, as the DM, should know that. If you pull the punches against the BBEG and then a PC dies... how do you fudge it back? I would be very mad if my PC died on a bad save that I had to make because the DM fudged a bad save the enemy had to make a round or 2 back...
Gemstone 01-20-05, 03:39 AM	About all of the posters who would fudge die rolls to make 1st round kills of the BBEG not-work... do you do it the other way? If the PC's stumble onto a symbol of death, do they auto-save the first round they encounter it? If the PCs stumble apon a monster with a death attack (bodak???) do the PCs auto-save their first round? I mean, the PCs are more heroic to the game / story then the BBEG, they're the main characters in the game / story, shouldn't they be the ones who get the writers luck more then the villan who was put in the story to be defeated?? Actually, I've saved my players more than once, for the benefit of the story. Let me just say: "Circle of Death" trap, aswell as "Destruction" trap. I've also rewinded one encounter with a Beholder, since that thing was WAY to powerful for my PC's (level 10) since what's the fun with a TPK when all your players have built their characters from scratch, really working themselves into their characters?