Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Myzery78 04-02-06, 05:16 PM	This may seem like an odd question, but I had always been told a Barbarians rage end if they are unconscious. From a roleplaying perspective that makes sense but mechanically I cant find any evidence of it in the rules and the idea that a 5th level or higher Barbarian whos dropped into the negatives instantly dies from loosing the bonus con doesnt make all that much sense to me. If anyone knows of a statement in the rules that shows what happens when a Raging Barbarian drops unconscious I'd really appreciate it, Thanks.
kelvinaw273 04-02-06, 05:24 PM	I don't actually know of any rule regarding this, but it does make sense that barbarians do not stay raging. On the other hand, as a DM I would regard the question as one of dramatic licence ... his con does not drop if there is drama to be milked out of the desperate race by the rest of the party to reach their friend and save his life before it does. Yeah, when I DM I'm like that ...
Myzery78 04-02-06, 06:25 PM	Anyone know of an official ruling on the subject?
Bob Loblaw 04-02-06, 11:07 PM	There is no official ruling on this. This pops up from time-to-time and I have emailed the sage numerous times with no answer. There seems to be plenty of answers to questions that require only a cursory glance of the PHB, but nothing for those questions that actually need answering. In my games, we have the barbarian come out of his rage since staying in the rage is a voluntary act. However, I know other groups that feel that he should remain raged until he actively turns it off. Whatever you do, just remain consistent.
Terraneaux 04-03-06, 02:15 AM	Technically, you stay in a rage while unconscious. The one thing you lose is the +2 bonus to will saves as that is a "morale effect." Of course, it's a fairly common houserule to say that you can't sustain an emotional state like rage while unconscious, but DMs should keep in mind that this can result in Barbs dieing pretty sudden deaths.
Gauze Fireforge 04-03-06, 02:40 AM	I don't actually know of any rule regarding this, but it does make sense that barbarians do not stay raging. On the other hand, as a DM I would regard the question as one of dramatic licence ... his con does not drop if there is drama to be milked out of the desperate race by the rest of the party to reach their friend and save his life before it does. Yeah, when I DM I'm like that ... For the love of all that is holy (or unholy if that is your thing) dont houserule rage ending when you go unconscious. You will find that the sparkle of the class is nullified considerably because it is the main feature of the class and if that feature leads to death (as it will with the houserule) then you make the class completely unattractive for your players. From my point of view, yes it is logical conclusion but the PHB states the only ways that rage can end and this does not include going unconscious. Happy gaming
Mitchell 04-03-06, 04:46 AM	Common sense says that you can't be raging while KOd. The rules say that while you are raging, you get a bonus to con, which provides temporary HP. So if they get KOd and lose the extra con, they lose the HPs that came with it, meaning that any barbarian of 5th level or higher will die if they get KOd. I'm certainly not going to tell the barbarians of the world that if they get KOd they die. That's just harsh.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-03-06, 05:05 AM	I'm certainly not going to tell the barbarians of the world that if they get KOd they die. That's just harsh. That right there trumps both realism and RAW, I.M.O. Realism is good, and consistency with the rules is good, but if either one of them threatens to kill off the players' fun, fun wins - the offending realism or RAW takes a hike. Why anybody would rather use their free time to play a perfect simulation that sucks, rather than a somewhat unrealistic but fun game, is beyond me... but to read these boards, apparently some people would. Besides, it's entirely possible to have rich and varied emotional states while unconscious. Dreams and nightmares, anyone? For all we know, a barbarian that's just been knocked out is still actively fighting, in his own mind. A KO'ed barbarian that's still mad as hell and so high on adrenaline he just won't die seems plenty realistic to me.
nodaisho 04-03-06, 07:09 AM	Of course, it's a fairly common houserule to say that you can't sustain an emotional state like rage while unconscious, but DMs should keep in mind that this can result in Barbs dieing pretty sudden deaths. shows what they know about anger. You can be angry enough to burst a blood vessel while sleeping. Ooo... That just gave me an idea, a sleepwalking barbarian that sometimes rages while sleeping. A hermit, for obvious reasons.
Silverthumb128 04-03-06, 08:18 AM	You will find that the sparkle of the class is nullified considerably because it is the main feature of the class and if that feature leads to death (as it will with the houserule) then you make the class completely unattractive for your players. Is getting KO'ed really such a common thing that it would completely devastate the class, and ruin its playability? And when did KO=death? If your opponent has enough time to whittle your Barbarian's HP down far enough to where the Con hit will reduce him to 0 HP and then deliver subdual damage enough to cause a knockout, then how is it that the Barbarian, in the alloted time-frame hasn't done any killing of his own? Unless there's a large mob fighting one Barbarian, switching between subdual and lethal damage, that's going to take a really long time. Too long of a time to ruin the class.
Witch 04-03-06, 08:23 AM	I would rule like this: The barbarian gains bonus hp from con rising. The first hp to be knocked off are those bonus hp. Hence, he cannot lose them again when his con drops again, since he's already lost them. Hence, raging while unconscious would be impossible but they would not take a sudden loss of hp.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-03-06, 08:25 AM	I think you're missing the point when we talk about KO here, Silverthumb128. Lethal damage enough to bring a character down to -1 hp leaves them dying but not yet dead... but they are unconscious, iow KO'ed. If the barbarian drops out of rage at that point at level 5 or beyond, he's going to lose enough hp to die instantaneously.
Silverthumb128 04-03-06, 08:56 AM	Well, for -1 HP through -9 HP, by the RAW that's called disabled, not unconcious, even though you are, effectively, unconcious. That might be where my misunderstanding lies, incorrect terms.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-03-06, 09:00 AM	Actually by RAW, 0 is disabled, -1 through -9 are dying. Different condition altogether, and the unconsciousness is not just implied. Dying A dying character is unconscious and near death. She has -1 to -9 current hit points. A dying character can take no actions and is unconscious. At the end of each round (starting with the round in which the character dropped below 0 hit points), the character rolls d% to see whether she becomes stable. She has a 10% chance to become stable. If she does not, she loses 1 hit point. If a dying character reaches -10 hit points, she is dead. (Underline added.)
Centauri 04-03-06, 09:21 AM	Looks like Barbarians should take Endurance and Diehard before 5th level, then. Diehard will keep them conscious in the negatives.
Merestil Haye 04-03-06, 11:27 AM	There seem to be a couple of misunderstandings here. FirstlyCommon sense says that you can't be raging while KOd.What has common sense to do with this? We are discussing the rules of a game which, self-admittedly, prefers to err on the side of playability than realism. The rules say that while you are raging, you get a bonus to con, which provides temporary HP.Actually the rules go out of their way to say that the increase in hp are not temporary hp.The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.)What the Con increase does is raise the character's max HP total. When the rage ends, the Con drops and the increase in Max HP goes away. If that results in Max HP being less than damage sustained, the character drops to the ground and is dying. If MaxHP - current damage is -10 or less the character dies. So if they get KOd and lose the extra con, they lose the HPs that came with it, meaning that any barbarian of 5th level or higher will die if they get KOd. I'm certainly not going to tell the barbarians of the world that if they get KOd they die. That's just harsh.I agree, it's harsh. I don't agree that it happens, either. Witch is also treating these hp as temporary HP, which, as the rules stress, is wrong. I was also confused a bit by Silverthumb.And when did KO=death? If your opponent has enough time to whittle your Barbarian's HP down far enough to where the Con hit will reduce him to 0 HP and then deliver subdual damage enough to cause a knockout, then how is it that the Barbarian, in the alloted time-frame hasn't done any killing of his own?Firstly, what relevannce is the barbarian having killed anything at all? Secondly, the debate is about what happens if a raging barbarian is knocked unconscious. A barbarian brought to exactly 0hp is disabled but conscious. If he is then takes subdual damage, he becomes unconscious. If that causes his rage to end, his max HP reduce, but the lethal damage he has taken does not. He is therefore reduced to less than 0 hp. If he is 5th level or higher, the max HP drop is 10 or greater, so he would die without possibility of being saved. This is, as others have said, not fun. Ultimately, the game is about fun. The Barbarian's rage is not something that he needs to concentrate on to sustain. I tend to think of it as akin to an adrenalin surge that the character can consciously release. Once started it will run its course without the characters intervention. The Barbarian can terminate it early if he chooses, but an unconscious character cannot so choose. Therefore it will run its alloted duration (3 + Con mod rounds) unless the character reaches -10hp before it expires.
Witch 04-03-06, 11:35 AM	Perhaps I would be wrong as to RAW, yes. But I think it would make more sense, and be more playable.
Gauze Fireforge 04-03-06, 10:12 PM	Perhaps I would be wrong as to RAW, yes. But I think it would make more sense, and be more playable. :OMG! Yeah your right, its a more playable class to play when your dead :nonono: Is getting KO'ed really such a common thing that it would completely devastate the class, and ruin its playability? And when did KO=death? If your opponent has enough time to whittle your Barbarian's HP down far enough to where the Con hit will reduce him to 0 HP and then deliver subdual damage enough to cause a knockout, then how is it that the Barbarian, in the alloted time-frame hasn't done any killing of his own? Unless there's a large mob fighting one Barbarian, switching between subdual and lethal damage, that's going to take a really long time. Too long of a time to ruin the class. I dont know how you play or run your games, but mine usually involve combat. Barbarians usually are front liners, taking the brunt of damage and the like so yeah it can be a common thing. You presume that all enemies a barbarians face want to take them alive? Interesting...those demons are a caring lot when you get to know them :rolleyes: I really think you are missing the whole point of this. Barbarian rages, gets boost in con thus extra hit points. Gets whacked and goes down to -1 or worse, looses rage due to houserule thus looses bonus con. As others have stated if you are a 5th level barbarian or higher, your dead, no ifs, buts, whens or maybes. Providing all the damage that a barbarian has received is lethal, this houserule makes the MAIN FEATURE OF THE CLASS A DEATHTRAP, ESPECIALLY OVER 5TH LEVEL!
kelvinaw273 04-03-06, 11:41 PM	Providing all the damage that a barbarian has received is lethal, this houserule makes the MAIN FEATURE OF THE CLASS A DEATHTRAP, ESPECIALLY OVER 5TH LEVEL! Houserule or not, the Barbarian's rage IS a double-edged sword. When it expires you lose 2hp per level with no ifs, buts or maybes, and that can kill you if you have just staggered out of combat on too few hp. This is not in debate, it is what the rules describe. The question is WHEN does this happen - immediately the character gets taken to -1 hp, or only after the aloted time? I would say as DM that it is only after the aloted time as the character is disabled rather than KO'ed. He can still be fighting mad and hanging on even though incapacitated. I would do this for the dramatic effect of having the other PCs race to get his hit points up by enough to survive in spite of the hp loss.
Sianger 04-04-06, 12:32 AM	Houserule or not, the Barbarian's rage IS a double-edged sword. When it expires you lose 2hp per level with no ifs, buts or maybes, and that can kill you if you have just staggered out of combat on too few hp. This is not in debate, it is what the rules describe. Quite right, the loss of hp after rage is meant to make it a double-edged sword, an all-or-nothing gamble. But like most others here, I agree that to rule the hp as lost once the Barb is KOed would severely decrease the fun of playing it. After all, Barbs are generally meant to be tough, even reckless front-liners who can just charge straight into combat - easy to hit but tons of hp. Of course they're going to be taking a lot of damage (and hence get KOed often). For those who want to insist on realism - if you liken the Barb's rage to an adrenaline surge (which it has considerable resemblance to) then one can easily argue that the adrenaline is still in the guy's bloodstream even when he's KOed and it still has its physiological effects, including the +4 or more Con (and Str). It lasts until the effects wear off i.e. duration expires, then the shock sets in i.e. the loss of hp.
Cifer 04-04-06, 03:41 AM	Actually, I don't have that much of a problem with the idea, depending how lethal you want the game to be. When a barbarian goes into needing his con bonus, he is effectively already dead, living on borrowed time and his own anger, refusing to acknowledge that he should be dead. When he finally does drop, he would be unable to use his willpower to sustain him and thus die since his body already did. If one wants to dampen this houserule, one might add a minimum number of turns a PC needs to bleed to death, effectively setting his hp to about -7 whatever they are.
Shinryouga 04-04-06, 06:00 AM	My group solved this, and the aggravation of high level monsters putting you from fairly okay to -9 with a single solid (non-crit) hit. We did it by making the -1 to -10 "death threshold" being instead -1 to -(10+Fort Save). So a level 1 fighter with a 16 con and Great Fortitude has a "Threshhold" of -17(10+2base+3con+2feat). From -1 to -16, hes dying, at -17, hes dead. This works well all the way into epic. It makes sense that high fortitude characters resists death from physical trauma longer, and that your magic items do continue to function even when unconcious (cloak of resistance). My group loves the rule, (they get to capture more bad guys alive) and the barbarian has to be carful, but not phobically paranoid when it comes to raging. Just my two coppers.
DaMullet 04-04-06, 02:11 PM	I like that houserule. I also agree that it is unrealistic to think that the Barbarian suddenly isn't mad anymore, just because he's asleep. I have always houseruled that a Barbarian in a rage had a sort of half-diehard effect. That is, the don't become stable, but they DO have the option of taking a move or standard action without penalty (that is, you can keep attacking, and don't lose any extra HP for doing so, but you still lose HP at one per round until you stabilize).
Witch 04-04-06, 03:06 PM	:OMG! Yeah your right, its a more playable class to play when your dead :nonono: I dont know how you play or run your games, but mine usually involve combat. Barbarians usually are front liners, taking the brunt of damage and the like so yeah it can be a common thing. You presume that all enemies a barbarians face want to take them alive? Interesting...those demons are a caring lot when you get to know them :rolleyes: I really think you are missing the whole point of this. Barbarian rages, gets boost in con thus extra hit points. Gets whacked and goes down to -1 or worse, looses rage due to houserule thus looses bonus con. As others have stated if you are a 5th level barbarian or higher, your dead, no ifs, buts, whens or maybes. Providing all the damage that a barbarian has received is lethal, this houserule makes the MAIN FEATURE OF THE CLASS A DEATHTRAP, ESPECIALLY OVER 5TH LEVEL! Pardon me? I'm the one who houseruled he -doesn't- die, even though he loses his rage when unconscious. RAW says he dies in that case, although he might not stop raging when unconscious. I added logic ánd balanced it out again. So yes, the class has not lost playability.
Gauze Fireforge 04-04-06, 11:24 PM	I would rule like this: The barbarian gains bonus hp from con rising. The first hp to be knocked off are those bonus hp. Hence, he cannot lose them again when his con drops again, since he's already lost them. Hence, raging while unconscious would be impossible but they would not take a sudden loss of hp. Pardon me? I'm the one who houseruled he -doesn't- die, even though he loses his rage when unconscious. RAW says he dies in that case, although he might not stop raging when unconscious. I added logic ánd balanced it out again. So yes, the class has not lost playability. Okay, so you are houseruling that rage ends and when KO'd as well as houseruling that the bonus hit points from con effectively work like temporary hitpoints being they are the first to be lost and once gone aren't regained? So what would happen in this case if the barbarian is raging and was con drained? does he loose a portion of the temporary hit points, all of them? none of them? If your are going to make a plethora of house rules over a single ability, then fine, what ever floats your boat. I have found in my experience that their is a direct relationship between the number of houserules and the difficulty in administering them to obscure situations which always seem to rear their ugly heads. I have a novel idea, instead of making multiple houserules over an ability and then stumbling over obscure situations that come up, how about just playing the ability as the rules dictate? I hear you say realism will be sacrificed but as others have pointed out, isn't it not realistic to still have the overwhelming urge of anger and adrenaline continue even if ko'd? In the end, if you are calling the shots then happy gaming, i suppose I shouldn't be concerned with how many or how little houserule another group plays with.
lycanthrope0 04-13-06, 05:23 AM	actually if the OP is who i think it is hey mike its ron heh now on to the tpoic (assuming the Op is who i think i t is) this situation i know this came up at was at 4th level are barbarian dropped to -1 on a lucky shot ( not crit) but maxed damage from a 6th level fighter with a greatsword and weapon specialization after a few pot shots the barbaian was down to around 27 or 26 points fighter (DM controlled NPC) power attacked for 5 and hit the AC14 raging barbarian then maxed damage for around 28 points of damage. the DM asked where the barbaian was the barabarian was doing as he was next in init order and he said rolling for stabilizing from the last attack from thier it went DM: oh your rage ended? Barb: No last attack dropped me to negatives DM: then your rage wheres off Everyone else: WHAT!? DM: well he cant be ****** off when KO'ed ME: he would still have the same physical bonuses from adraneline as when he was awake he is taking on a Physical change from anger DM: no it would stop right then and their Barb: why that would cause a heart attack or Cardiac arrest DM: so thats the draw back of playing a barbarian Barb: since when Everyone looks threw the Players handbook at rage reading it threw a few times Player c: umm it never states that the rage ends when unconsceince DM: yes it does he is no longer in combat ME: then whats everyone else doing twiddling their thunbs while he does that? DM: no your in combat Barb: i am as well i am not dead just unconscience DM: yeah so combat ended for you everyone: ???? not sure thats how it works DM: FINE! roll your stabilization and then its your turn but we are going to find the rules for this before next week BArb: hey 03 i stablized great well umm im done ohh and the encounter was 8 bugbears and a goblin (one bugbear was a 5th level fighter in full plate and one was a 4th level cleric ) agaisnt 5 of us ( not sure how we won ) and i guess we never realy did clear it up because the next week fighter a pair of medium sized dragon the Barbarian got dropped to -10 with rage on from a full attack from the dragon i think are final descion is something like Rage doesnt nd unless you end it or its duration is up or combat has ended ( not from being unconscience) so that you can play a barbarian after level 5 without thinking you are dead on a lucky hit if the cleric cant get to you and heal you enough in time after your HP's get low
lokilowkey 04-13-06, 11:03 AM	Ill agree completely with Cifer. Raging barbarians are living on borrowed time. A nonraging barb who is knocked to -1 is down. Had the same barb been raging he would have still been out there kicking butt. The solution imo is simple: make sure the rest of the party knows this very well. I would join those who say that your rage doesn't end when you go down, and it just means that someone is going to go and heal the barbarian, fast, when the rager does go finally down. Thats party dynamics, just as the barbarian is in front and the squishy mage is in the back, and the healer has to be alert, and the rogue is a sneaky buster.
Nephlite 04-13-06, 01:22 PM	Pardon me? I'm the one who houseruled he -doesn't- die, even though he loses his rage when unconscious. RAW says he dies in that case, although he might not stop raging when unconscious. I added logic ánd balanced it out again. So yes, the class has not lost playability. Witch you forget to mention your rage adds: +2 Fort/Will saves, +2 Con based checks/skills, +4 Str and +2 tempoirary hps/level. The Current Rage adds: +2 Will, +4 Con/Str. That Con translates into +2 additional hps/level. Temporary are lost first. I do like your idea: So does Lotus Crane because that is what he used.
Lincoln Hills 04-13-06, 05:07 PM	I don't see anything in the Disabled or Dying status which suggests that all morale or mind-affecting effects (including barbarian rage) are lost in that state. Technically you can be both unconscious and enraged - but it's like being confused and asleep: one condition prevents the other from working properly. My ruling would be that the barbarian's rage continues for full duration. Folks who ordinarily fall unconscious just lie there: but I'll be adding flavor text when a raging barbarian falls. It'll look like a grand mal seizure: he can't stand up, he can't interact and he doesn't seem aware of the world - but he's thrashing and flopping like a hooked fish, foaming at the mouth, sweating and flushed. Not until the rage ends will he collapse into cold, still death. (The ruling of 'unconsciousness does not dispel mental effects' is useful to me in another regard as DM, since creatures with Fear effects will seem a lot more fearsome when even sleeping or dying foes weep or groan at their approach.)