Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mitchell 08-17-06, 09:16 PM	I am beginning a new game soon, and I have some problems. Our party of 6 will be: Cleric Fighter Rogue Psion (Kineticist) Unknown Me We lack an arcane caster. We have the psion, sure, but they are largely interested in blowing things up, and it still leaves a fair percentage of treasure in limbo. For these reasons I have decided that I will be an arcane caster, but... I question our rogues durability. They seem, just by the pre-game talk, to have an invincibility complex. For this reason, I feel that I need to be ready to back them up. A single multiclass is fine. I figure either a bard or hexblade offer some subtle magics, which is my primary concern, along with the other things that they bring to the table. A spellthief will give me the pertinent rogue skills right away, and I won't need to multiclass at all. But if the rogue does manage to hang on and stick with us for the long haul, then I fell like I would just be marginal, at best. Not very good at anything that the party may need. At least the hexblade brings fighting skills and the bard brings support (and superior spellcasting). I have been trying to sort through this, but keep bouncing back and forth between the three. It is almost certain that I will be a Tiefling (I know, not optimal), and am just looking for opinions as to what you think is the best move and why. Please, don't throw anything else into the mix. I have looked over all the available options and have decided these three are it. Anything else you offer would be something I already rejected or couldn't choose anyway. Thanks.
X-Codes 08-17-06, 09:40 PM	1) No Tieflings. That hits the casting stat on all three of your class ideas. 2) No Spellthieves. They just suck, honestly. Find out what that Unknown is. -If that Unknown is another melee-type (Including Clerics, Druids, Psychic Warriors, Soulknives, and anything with full BAB) then a plain Bard will go very well in this group as a supporter and can UMD any Sor/Wiz items you pick up. -If that Unknown is a Sorcerer or Wizard then your worries are gone. You should probably play some sort of melee type in this case. -If that Unknown is anything else, then you should probably be something capable of going into Melee and coming back out alive, even if their real strength is elsewhere. Possibly add in the Fling Ally feat from Races of Stone in case the Rogue needs saving. The problem with what you've come up with so far is that you're completely ignoring that Unknown. Chances are he's going to fill a role that's left open, even if he has to use UMD to do it.
KyussWren 08-17-06, 09:55 PM	Definately bard.
Board_Rider 08-17-06, 11:41 PM	Tiefling Hexblade A little Arcane and a little Melee. Race is not optimal but the resistances are a nice touch. As a side note, and I know you noted that you are limited here, but man you should try to swing for a Duskblade/Rogue or Duskblade/Warmage. Both are, well, dope.
I_Strahd 08-18-06, 02:34 AM	NO BARDS! im not kidding. your friends will just hate you. and the spell thief. um, yeah they suck too. but the hex blade can be fun. to a degree. but i would play a wu-jen. they are cool as well as powerful. and they have quirks. like taboos. ha. :D
LordHawkeye 08-18-06, 03:16 AM	Do take note. Hexblade doesn't really blow stuff up. His spells are mostly for pumping up allies and weakening enemies. Still a fun class. Their curse is awesome. I got a player in my campaign who plays a dwarf hexblade. Was able to overcome the cha penalty and he's doing fine. He's going to drive enemy spellcasters insane. With 16 cha, he has +5 to saves against magic (including the dwarven racial bonus) and completely negates spells on a successful save. o.O
Mitchell 08-18-06, 03:34 AM	Thanks for what's here so far. I don't own the Complete Adventurer, but I did scan the spellthief at the DMs house. I have never played one, so I didn't know how it was on the execution side of things. That bad? :) Anyway, any further guidance is welcome, but just as a reminder... It is almost certain that I will be a Tiefling (I know, not optimal)... Please, don't throw anything else into the mix. I have looked over all the available options and have decided these three are it. Anything else you offer would be something I already rejected or couldn't choose anyway. Thanks. Some of you, though well intentioned, seemed to have missed the fact that it will be one of these three classes, that it will in all likelihood be a Tiefling, and that I know it's not an optimal racial choice. I'm not trying to "win", I just want to play and have an enjoyable time while doing so. :cool: The unknown, unfortunately, will not be known to me until I need to be ready. Yes, if I knew they were going to be a rogue, fighter type, or true arcanist, then it would open up a lot of options, but I don't, and won't, until game day. And again, I know the Hexblades spells aren't big boom-boom type spells, but that suits me fine (I do own Complete Warrior). That's what the kineticist is for. I just want some subtle stuff that they will likely not concern themselves with... Like detect magic. :)
DM Zoc 08-18-06, 04:02 AM	Luckily for you, though you may not own the Complete Adventurer, the Spellthief is online (granted as a preview of that book, before it was released). Linked for your convenience. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=1) My suggestion, of those three, is the spellthief. It may seem like you're stepping on the rogue's feet with this class, but I'm sure the two of you will become fast friends. Consider not only the combat benefit of having two rogues flanking something, but also the skill possibilities. Although rogues have the most skill points of any class, they also have the most options and the most "important" skills. Choose complementary skills to the rogue; let him be the sneaky one, and you can be the suave one, putting your casting stat to good use. You will also be situationally useful in combat (against spellcasters, obviously), but you can also borrow some spells from the prepared caster and act as an emergency healer in case the cleric goes down, or possibly do something with the psion if that optional rule is being used. If you can convince the unknown to be a caster, you become marginally more powerful with your options.
Tytalus 08-18-06, 04:33 AM	Go bard - your teammates will love you for it. If you like, the tiefling lends itself to a dark bardic theme, where you focus on demoralizing enemies (in addition to bolstering allies, as usual). A fun feat is Doomspeak [CoR], and you might want to look into the Diresinger PrC [LM]. Black cloak and scythe (outsiders are proficient with all martial weapons) are optional, of course ;) For a low-level game, let me suggest the Lesser Tiefling [PGtF] instead of a regular tiefling. Same stats/bonuses, but different type (not outsider) and LA+0. In higher-level campaigns, it's not a good idea. If you do use the regular tiefling, see if you can use LA buyoff [UA], so you won't be a full level behind for the rest of your career.
CaoSlayer 08-18-06, 05:34 AM	bard + rogue = killer combo. At low levels, try to cast grease at the enemy´s feet, if the enemy lacks balance then they will lose the bonus to dex, so the rogue can sneak freely. At mid high level then move to improved invisibility. By the way being a tiefling is not just "no optimal" but a real handicap, you get a penalty to your main stat and you lose a whole level of spellcasting and bardic music.. I would be a fallen aasimar bard any time of the day.
geekling 08-18-06, 05:57 AM	My suggestion, of those three, is the spellthief. It may seem like you're stepping on the rogue's feet with this class, but I'm sure the two of you will become fast friends. Indeed, out of those three. I'd absolutely go spellthief. A rogue + spellthief team is a deadly combination in melee, if you learn to work as a team. (You tumble in, ready an action for him to tumble to get into flanking position, then you both stabbitystabsbtab for that sweet, sweet. sweet sneak attack damage (and stealing of spells etc.) - rince and repeat until there's none left standing.) Plus if your rogue is one of those scout a head types. He'll be glad to have someone there to help him out when you run into trouble, before the others catch up. For skills, let the rogue, if he's so inclined take care of the traps/locks business. While you max out your UMD etc. there's enough skills to choose from not to worry about stepping on anyone's toes.
ukjester 08-18-06, 08:46 AM	What level are you starting at? Hexblades get *very* few spells to start with, and even fewer spells per day, and you're basically looking at buffs and possibly counter-buffs. As a stand-in arcane caster, you're not going to be much help. My (now 8th level) Hexblade rarely uses any magic at all, and is more use as a second fighter. (He'd be even more use if I got him some decent armour) The curse can be useful, though the DC isn't particularly difficult for a spell-caster to beat.
X-Codes 08-18-06, 09:28 AM	Indeed, out of those three. I'd absolutely go spellthief. A rogue + spellthief team is a deadly combination in melee, if you learn to work as a team. (You tumble in, ready an action for him to tumble to get into flanking position, then you both stabbitystabsbtab for that sweet, sweet. sweet sneak attack damage (and stealing of spells etc.) - rince and repeat until there's none left standing.) Plus if your rogue is one of those scout a head types. He'll be glad to have someone there to help him out when you run into trouble, before the others catch up. For skills, let the rogue, if he's so inclined take care of the traps/locks business. While you max out your UMD etc. there's enough skills to choose from not to worry about stepping on anyone's toes. I'm going to take apart your post because it's the only one giving reason to use a Spellthief. Nothing personal. 1) Very bad Sneak Attack. 5d6 (~18 damage per hit) at 20 with +15 BAB is pathetic, and because you have to stick to spellthief in order to keep your spellstealing at a worthwile level, you can't split off into a PrC. If thats not enough, in order to use the class' signature ability, you have to deal even *less* damage. 2) Spell Stealing is way too situational. In low-level play, less than half your enemies are spellcasters. Yes there are a lot of monsters with SLAs at higher levels, but these SLAs are generally things that they use well and that also typically don't work very well against them. You can only really get effective spells from true spellcasters, and you almost always have to pull randomly from their brain to get them. 3) Rogues get a *lot* of skill points. With 14 int and minimal feat assistance, a Rogue can typically get a decent modifier on most acrobatic skills and skills not requiring opposed checks while also maxing out a solid array of chosen skills by level 3 (typically hide, move silently, search, disable device, and a couple specialty skills). And, unfortunately, even maxed out UMD doesn't become reliable until somewhere between levels 4 and 7. A spellthief doesn't bring anything to the table in this department that the rogue doesn't already, or even that a bard or ranger doesn't already, except trapfinding. If the guy with the Unknown knows that you're likely to play a guy with arcane talents, the smart thing for him to do would be to pick up a Barbarian or Ranger and get some Survival talents in the party. He might just play whatever he feels like, however. I say pick up Bard, because I'm trying to not automatically discout people as stupid anymore. If you *have* to play a Tiefling, then put a 14 into Charisma at the start (12 after racial), put another point in at level 4 and just leave it. Spread out into the War Chanter PrC at 9th. Focus on your physical ability scores and mold yourself into a "light melee" with Improved Trip early and Power Attack as time goes on. Ability points should go to Strength after 4th. NO BARDS! im not kidding. your friends will just hate you. and the spell thief. um, yeah they suck too. but the hex blade can be fun. to a degree. but i would play a wu-jen. they are cool as well as powerful. and they have quirks. like taboos. ha. I'll prete... oh heck with it, Bards own you! Even if played semi-intelligently they will amplify the power of a well-rounded group. They can use cure wands without any difficulty, and blasting wands with only minor difficulty. They can tell a man in full plate his arse is showing, and they'll believe him for a minute while they muck around trying to see their own arse. It may be simple when you're naked in the shower, but try doing it in full plate! Theres nothing any other class can do that a bard can't fake well enough to be at least a passable backup. And finally, we are not all stupid as rocks like Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/J8H9YXfp8E16FMlhQ1u.html)!
Ralvuimego 08-18-06, 03:18 PM	Honestly, I'd go spellthief (I used to hate the class, but it's grown on me...) and petition your DM to allow you to borrow psionic powers from your psion friend. If the game is going to be using both psionics and regular magic, then the average concentration of casters you'll find is going to be halved, thus cutting off 1/4 of your casting abilities (1/4 of it being your own spells, 1/4 being borrowed magic, and 1/2 being stolen magic) and making you less useful. Don't underestimate the power of borrowed spells. Your party's cleric very well may be clanking around in full-plate with a move speed of 15, while you nearly double his speed and can tumble around AoOs (Mobile Medic Go!), plus you can move into the all-too-dangerous-for-a-full-caster touch attack without risking as much as they do. With charisma being your primary casting stat, you can pick up the Charisma based skills like Bluff, Gather Information, and Use Magic Device, while your party rogue focuses on the trapfinding and scouting abilities. (Trust me, as a rogue I never have enough skill points to put across all the skills I want... and he was human with an 18 int.) You will definately be your rogue's best friend and flanking partner.
psionichamster 08-18-06, 07:36 PM	bard. even with the -2 to charisma of the tiefling, the SLA and resistances (not to mention the int/dex boosts) more than make up for it. and it's not like you can't play a half-orc or dwarven bard, either inspire courage REALLY shines with such a large group i would suggest "swift inspiration" or whatever that spell is, as well as "song of the heart" (feat from the Eberron Camp. Setting, not sure if that's legal w/ your game) to boost your bonus as much as possible. our current (Aasimar) bard starts music at the beginning of pretty much every battle, and that +3/+3 really helps out. not to mention fun spells like glitterdust, grease, haste, and the like. hell, use a scythe, get Whirling Blade, and be doing 2d4+str*1.5 in a 60' line. consider also "battlecaster", and get a breasplate...preferably mithral, so as not to slow you down. namaste' the hamster
kelvinaw273 08-18-06, 08:09 PM	With that party makeup I would vote Bard, unless the Unknown takes an arcane caster, which opens your options considerably. But Bards can fit in ANY party, and help fill in a little with any role. Plus, they are consumate buffers, and can really help everyone else do their jobs.
X-Codes 08-18-06, 08:34 PM	bard. even with the -2 to charisma of the tiefling, the SLA and resistances (not to mention the int/dex boosts) more than make up for it. and it's not like you can't play a half-orc or dwarven bard, either inspire courage REALLY shines with such a large group i would suggest "swift inspiration" or whatever that spell is, as well as "song of the heart" (feat from the Eberron Camp. Setting, not sure if that's legal w/ your game) to boost your bonus as much as possible. our current (Aasimar) bard starts music at the beginning of pretty much every battle, and that +3/+3 really helps out. not to mention fun spells like glitterdust, grease, haste, and the like. hell, use a scythe, get Whirling Blade, and be doing 2d4+str*1.5 in a 60' line. consider also "battlecaster", and get a breasplate...preferably mithral, so as not to slow you down. namaste' the hamster The Darkness SLA actually isn't very good for Bards. Bards are teamwork characters, and Darkness pretty well screws over anyone without darkvision (Usually over half of a given party). You can play a dwarven or half-orc bard, but their spellcasting generally stinks, just like this guy's will. Thats why I'm suggesting using the War Chanter PrC from Complete Warrior. Whirling Blade isn't a Bard spell AFAIK. Even if it is, it's not a very good one. Mithral Breastplate is already light, so the Bard already doesn't get ASF from it. No Battlecaster feat required. This particular bard might want to invest in Celestial Armor anyway, because his Dex is liable to get that high.
Mitchell 08-19-06, 05:08 AM	It is Eberron. Will be starting at 1st level using the "powerful races at 1st level" variant from PgtF, and using LA buyoff, so I will be behind the party for a short time, become a "true" 1st level character when they hit 2nd, but will catch up with no penalties eventually... Maybe as early as 5th or 6th level, depending on how the XP adjusts for me. I don't know that I will ever have to fill in for the rogue. They may live forever, but the early trash-talk was enough to give me pause. There are old rogues, and there are stupid rogues. The two don't occur in the same person very often. :) Game start was delayed for a week. Now targetting next saturday. I may find out the unknown beforehand now, and if it doesn't occur next weekend (for work reasons and such), then I will almost certainly know, because I plan on being at Dragon*Con the weekend after that, so that will put it off yet another weekend. I know spelthief sets me up to fill in best, since it already has the pertinent abilities. Bard comes in next, with plenty of skill points and a lot of the same skills. I would just need to work on opening locks and disabling devices if I had to take the role. Hexblades offer the least, but if there is one class that I want to play most of the three, this is probably it, even though it really is kind of... Lacking. It may sort itself out once I see the unknown. I could end up as a shifter ranger/weretouched master/horizon walker by the time this is over, now.Thanks for the suggestions. :cool:
Peacimowen 08-19-06, 09:00 AM	Bard: Excelent all around support. And that bonus to hit & damage can sometimes make the difference between life & death. (I HATE it when you hit a creature for lots of damage and it ends up at 1 HP!! >.<) Bards are fun. ^_^ The spellthief has its uses stealing spells. Sometimes the random spells you steal are useless, but if your own spells are useful, you can just cast them (I personally recommend True Strike as one of your spells: If that spell you stole is not useful to the current situation, simply make absolutely sure you hit with the next attack (baring natural 1s, of course). I found that my Illumian (Races of Destiny) spellthief with the UurKrau power word and 20 Dex to be generally quite effective.. and the high Dex means I can hit with those ray spells I steal. Sure, you hit with for less damage if you use up your sneak attack dice to use your abilities, but it can help out the rest of your party against the target (steal spell effect == remove buffs on the enemy on successful hit!) And when you can afford it, buy a ring of spell storing for saving that uber spell you just stole that's not immediately useful for a rainy day. Never encountered a hexblade in a party though, so I have no idea as to their effectiveness or lack thereof.
Nived 08-19-06, 11:30 AM	If you play a spellthief make sure you become the rogues best friend. Rogues and Spellthieves compliment each other. While they can clash and step on each other's toes it doesn't have to be that way. Other than Use Magic Device the two of you should sit down and try to off set each others stills, between the two of you, you could have 80% skill rolls in the game covered. ONE of you disables devices, opens locks, and searches. The other bluffs, tumbles, and sneaks. More than anything else you need to be flanking buddies. By working together you open opponents up to sneak attack. His will always be better, but yours will debuff and steal. Neither of you will be effective if you can't sneak attack, so you should work together to always GET sneak attack. Spell Thieves teamed with a rogue are amazing actually.
kelvinaw273 08-19-06, 04:55 PM	I know spelthief sets me up to fill in best, since it already has the pertinent abilities. Bard comes in next, with plenty of skill points and a lot of the same skills. I would just need to work on opening locks and disabling devices if I had to take the role. Hexblades offer the least, but if there is one class that I want to play most of the three, this is probably it, even though it really is kind of... Lacking. If it is what you WANT then play the Hexblade. In Player's Guide to Eberron the Hexblade gets some attention, you may wish to look it up (have not got my copy on me right now).
Cifer 08-19-06, 05:45 PM	The Darkness SLA actually isn't very good for Bards. Bards are teamwork characters, and Darkness pretty well screws over anyone without darkvision (Usually over half of a given party). Actually, it would screw over anyone encountered within a usual party - magical darkness can't be pierced by darkvision. It also only grants concealment, not total concealment. However, your rogue buddy might hate you for it since he can't sneak attack concealed opponents - he'd need a blind-sight of at least 5 feet. I prefer darkness as a nice way of getting out - either cast it on you or on your enemies (if they are few) so they get a 20% miss chance on their parting gifts. I'd consider bard the easiest of the classes. The other two are very tactical - if that's your style, good for you.
Thurbane 08-19-06, 09:12 PM	I just don't get the dislike for Bards, they can be very useful and versatile characters. I have one I am trying to get up to Shadowdancer PrC. With all the new spells in the various books, Bards can really pack a punch. Get a decent shortbow, maybe PBS and Rapid Fire, get the UMD up high and a few wands....very handy indeed. Maybe consider a level or two of fighter for better weapons selection and bonus feats.
X-Codes 08-19-06, 09:58 PM	If you play a spellthief make sure you become the rogues best friend. Rogues and Spellthieves compliment each other. While they can clash and step on each other's toes it doesn't have to be that way. Other than Use Magic Device the two of you should sit down and try to off set each others stills, between the two of you, you could have 80% skill rolls in the game covered. ONE of you disables devices, opens locks, and searches. The other bluffs, tumbles, and sneaks. If the two are adventuring together, then have only one of them with ranks in Hide and Move Silently does no good. Sure the first consistently rolls a 30 on his hide check, but if the other can barely break 16 then the Spot/Listen DC to find them *both* is 16. Also, if you're fighting a monster with Reach then both need tumble to evade his AoO's, not just one. Spellthief + Rogue is not any better of a combination than Bard + Rogue.
Ralvuimego 08-20-06, 01:24 AM	If the two are adventuring together, then have only one of them with ranks in Hide and Move Silently does no good. Sure the first consistently rolls a 30 on his hide check, but if the other can barely break 16 then the Spot/Listen DC to find them *both* is 16. Also, if you're fighting a monster with Reach then both need tumble to evade his AoO's, not just one. Spellthief + Rogue is not any better of a combination than Bard + Rogue. Spellthief + Rogue is better than Bard + Rogue simply because Spellthief is a much better flanking partner, since they both benefit from the sneak attack advantage. Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble are fairly must-have for rogues, unless they aren't tuned to stealth or combat. Sure, the spellthief and rogue will both have ranks in tumble, hide, and move silently, but the rogue could have ranks in appraise, search, disable device, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and open lock, while the spellthief has ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information. Both of them would fill very different roles and neither of them would be stepping into the other's territory, yet both would make very capable scouts (The rogue being slightly better than the spellthief, but hey.)
geekling 08-20-06, 04:05 AM	1) Very bad Sneak Attack. 5d6 (~18 damage per hit) at 20 with +15 BAB is pathetic, and because you have to stick to spellthief in order to keep your spellstealing at a worthwile level, you can't split off into a PrC. If thats not enough, in order to use the class' signature ability, you have to deal even *less* damage. No one ever claimed that the spellthief is anything but a support class, not a tank. But then, look at the other options presented by the OP, they are mostly support classes. So, I dunno... perhaps it's safe to hazard the guess that he *shock*horror* enjoys playing a support class. And is not looking for a full BAB progression, damage dealing monster. But teamed up with a rogue, they both get better at what it is they largeyly depend upon in a fight. It's a win/win situation. 2) Spell Stealing is way too situational. In low-level play, less than half your enemies are spellcasters. Yes there are a lot of monsters with SLAs at higher levels, but these SLAs are generally things that they use well and that also typically don't work very well against them. You can only really get effective spells from true spellcasters, and you almost always have to pull randomly from their brain to get them. Ok, it has to be asked. But you've never actually played a spellthief, have you? One of the things that makes a spellthief effective is this not about stealing stuff to cast them. But to prevent others from using them. For SLAs and spelleffects this is even more the case. Steal the warlock's eldritch blast, for 10 rounds - as long as you don't use it... He can't either. Spontanious casters - steal your spell and you and your team have a minute where he can't use it against you. Stealing from wizards is boring, they just loose a spellslot. But sure it is situational, that's part of the package. Sometimes your main contribution in a fight is just to be a flanking buddy so that others can dish out the damage. 3) Rogues get a *lot* of skill points. And it's never enough. No matter how many skillpoints they get there's always room for more. No rogue can keep every skill that would come in useful to quite the level where they'd wish without dropping a few of them.
psionichamster 08-20-06, 08:53 PM	yes, whirling blade is DEFINITELY a bard 2 spell (sorc/wiz/bard/warmage 2) and, while not all that impressive at low levels, in the hand of a bard with action surge, sculpt spell, and a scythe, that's some serious 2d4+cha (or str, whichever may be higher) + pertinent buffs to all enemies in a cone/4 10' cubes/burst/line combine with invisibility (cast afterwards, via action surge), or bardic music/sudden inspiration/song of the heart (swift cast/sing before whirling blade), and that's some decent combat potential there. BUT, bards will forever be denigrated by the community. c'est la vie, your loss, community. namaste' the hamster (btw: mithral breastplate has nothing to do w/ ASF -questionable ruling regarding light/medium status aside- it has to do with moving spd 30' rather than 20')
X-Codes 08-20-06, 09:56 PM	yes, whirling blade is DEFINITELY a bard 2 spell (sorc/wiz/bard/warmage 2) and, while not all that impressive at low levels, in the hand of a bard with action surge, sculpt spell, and a scythe, that's some serious 2d4+cha (or str, whichever may be higher) + pertinent buffs to all enemies in a cone/4 10' cubes/burst/line combine with invisibility (cast afterwards, via action surge), or bardic music/sudden inspiration/song of the heart (swift cast/sing before whirling blade), and that's some decent combat potential there. BUT, bards will forever be denigrated by the community. c'est la vie, your loss, community. namaste' the hamster (btw: mithral breastplate has nothing to do w/ ASF -questionable ruling regarding light/medium status aside- it has to do with moving spd 30' rather than 20') Ok, you missed the point. Whirling Blade is a BAD spell. Not bad as in street-talk bad, bad as in "Why the heck would I waste my life even considering that?" bad. Also, Mithral Brestplate is LIGHT armor, it does not give ASF to bards, it does not decrease move speed, it does not give nonproficiency penalties to people not proficient with medium armor, it does not deny a Ranger's TWF. It is LIGHT armor. Also, I'm not denegrating the Bard. In case you haven't noticed, I'm suggesting the Bard is a superior class to the Spellthief. Spellthief + Rogue is better than Bard + Rogue simply because Spellthief is a much better flanking partner, since they both benefit from the sneak attack advantage. Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble are fairly must-have for rogues, unless they aren't tuned to stealth or combat. Sure, the spellthief and rogue will both have ranks in tumble, hide, and move silently, but the rogue could have ranks in appraise, search, disable device, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and open lock, while the spellthief has ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information. Both of them would fill very different roles and neither of them would be stepping into the other's territory, yet both would make very capable scouts (The rogue being slightly better than the spellthief, but hey.) Sneak Attack does nothing if you can't hit, and a properly built Bard can give a Rogue at least one extra hit a round compared to a Spellthief. As far as damage goes, the Bard makes up at least half of that as well with his Inspire Courage bonuses, since he's not just boosting his own damage, but the Rogue's as well. In this sense, the Bard is easily a better supporting hero than the Spellthief. Also, Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information are all class skills for the Bard, just like the Spellthief. There is no advantage to playing a spellthief here either. *snip* Nither the Rogue nor the Bard are tanks, either. The Bard is also a support class like the Rogue and, honestly, I enjoy playing Bard's too. Also, I don't fight many warlocks, but I'm sure getting rid of that mean 9d6 damage a round will really help our party, nevermind that he's still flying invisibly covering the battlefield with darkness and back, oozy tentacles that constantly try to grab everyone. If he can't last a minute without his weak standby attack, he really shouldn't qualify as a threat in the first place. It's the same big whoop-die-doo when it comes to spontaneous casters. The same thing goes with Spontaneous casters, except they might have some more variety in their tactics. Finally, if an entire party fulfills their contributions to the team's skill pool (the Fighter takes care of climbing and jumping and helps the rest of the team around, as well as Intimidating evryone impervious to the Cleric's diplomacy, maybe even Tracking if thy're a Barbarian or Ranger and have the extra skill points, the cleric deals with Diplomacy and identifying undead, or even scouting if he is a druid, and the Wizard takes care of everything arcane and reading, including decipher script) then 8+int skills easily covers the rest of what the party needs. Remember, just because Rogues get a lot of skill points doesn't mean nobody else gets *any*. If you have 14+int skills from the Rogue/Bard or Rogue/Ranger combination then you've pretty well got it made.
Ralvuimego 08-21-06, 02:17 AM	*Cut down to save space* Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information are all class skills for the Bard, just like the Spellthief. There is no advantage to playing a spellthief here either. You missed the point of what I was saying. I chose those skills to reflect a path the spellthief could take, using the charisma based skills simply because that's the spellthief's primary casting stat. The spellthief could easily go with Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, and Spot, while the rogue picks up all of the conversation skills, but you're spreading your party's rogue's stats too thin. (I mean come on, dexterity and intelligence are enough to worry about!) I'm not going to say the bard sucks, because it doesn't, (I encourage anyone who doesn't believe me to play a bard. If it still sucks to you then learn how to play one and try again), I just believe the spellthief is a more enjoyable class, and can easily find a position in a group with any kind of full spellcaster. (I haven't seen the hexblade in action yet, so I don't really have any comments set out for it)