Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sneak_Blast 05-29-06, 07:18 PM	Hello. I have a pretty open ended question. One of my party members in a future campaign wants to be a bard. We are starting out as 9th level characters. I'm fine with him being a bard and all, but he is building the character to have NO offensive capabilites. I know that bards are meant to be support characters, but what happens if they get separated fromt the group and have to fight? I guess I am just wondering, is there any sort of build or something that gives a bard SOMETHING offensive wise. P.S. One of the reasons he is building a bard is because he wants to be able to build buildings with "Lyre of [building or something]". He needs perform to use that, and a bard works well with perform. Anyway, because he THINKS the bard has little offensive abilities, he is building the bard to not have any offensive abilities even more so.
X-Codes 05-29-06, 07:28 PM	Use Magic Device gives pretty good offesnse IMO. A high-power wand of Fireball. Maybe go TWF and get a Caster Glove (DMG II) with an item that casts swift-action spells in it. Anyway, tell your friend that it's very unwise to build a character around an item (especially such a cheap one) becuase you just might find out that it's not as useful as you would think. Items are made to be a part of a character, not the other way around.
sneak_Blast 05-29-06, 07:41 PM	Good idea. I'll mention UMD. Didnt really know bards had it.
Dei 05-29-06, 09:13 PM	A straight bard is not going to be great offensively but they're by no means helpless. Many of their abilities and spells can be used to great effect. I once played a multi-class fighter/bard who would use blur, displacement, haste and later on, things like greater heroism to fantastic effect. A greater invisible, hasted and greater heroed bard is not something anyone wants to have to stand toe to toe with. Especially not when they're wielding a keen, flaming scythe like my one was :P. It says right in the class description that they'll never be as good at things as other classes but that doesn't mean they're no good, sure it takes a bit of buffing but a bard can really pound out the damage if he's played right. Also, let's not forget illusion spells. If they're used properly illusions can turn the course of a battle. Chant a bit, wave your arms, even use sculpt sound to enhance your bluff check and then poof, a big red portal opens and out steps a big red dragon. May not kill much but it'll definately cause a need for some fresh trousers. Btw, if the player only wants to make a builder and the bard's only a means to that end why not have them look at the Psion class instead (ExpPsi), take the metacreativity school and you can use powers like fabricate to create buildings from their constituent elements. Dump some of the dozens of skill points the high int gives into craft: construction and the fun you can have with jamming doors and impromptu architectural changes is endless :P.
kelvinaw273 05-29-06, 09:39 PM	Bards are, with the exception of their lack of sneak attack, usually slightly better fighters than rogues. They are 'jack of all trades' characters, they don't do anything better than any other class, but they do a lot of things well enough to get by, or to fill in for a few rounds. While a bard is not a front rank fighter, they can and should be able to fight in support of the fighters. Nobody expects them to take on the enemy tanks, but they can help protect the wizards and sorcerers. Nobody expects them to be able to raise the dead, but they can heal enough to make a difference. Nobody expects fireballs from them, but the can throw in the odd utility spell to help. Nobody expects them to trapfind, but they can help unlock the door and sneak a peek through.
Koji 05-29-06, 09:47 PM	I had a halfling bard in one of my games who picked up a bunch of very good throwing weapons. In time he was dealing damage nearly on par with the barbarian and monk in the party (generally only around 10 or 20% less), which was quite a sight.
sneak_Blast 05-29-06, 11:18 PM	HOW? That is one of the questions of the thread. How do you deal damage with a bard?
Taim Kelrathos 05-29-06, 11:25 PM	Very carefully and with great [Weapon] finesse :D
Vaelan 05-29-06, 11:53 PM	HOW? That is one of the questions of the thread. How do you deal damage with a bard? Snowflake Wardance and Arcane Strike help, especially if you go into Sublime Chord and Eldritch Knight.
Reversefigure4 05-30-06, 12:31 AM	HOW? That is one of the questions of the thread. How do you deal damage with a bard? Much the same way you deal damage with anything else. Bards have decent weapon proficiency and decent BAB - hit your enemy with a sword? Worried about your fragile D6 Bard and his light armour? Use a shortbow. Take some ranks in Craft: Alchemy, and build yourself a supply of alchemist's fire flasks to hurl. Use the bard damaging spells (a small list, admittedly) like the sonic spells to do direct damage. Many of the bard spells help your party by either buffing them, or incapacitating your opponent's (Grease, Irresistable Dance). While these aren't direct damage, it makes the following sword-whacking by either a fighter or the bard himself a lot easier and more painful. Similarly, use your Knowledge skills to tell the party that the big hairy monster is really vulnerable to cold damage. Use Magic Device for whatever offensive magic you can buy. Bards can be as offensive as you like.
Morrowner 05-30-06, 01:01 AM	Inspirational Boost+Song of the Heart+Masterwork Horn+Base is +5 to attacks and damages to a whole group, not shabby at all. Throw on a Haste and a Sonic Weapon and a bow could deal something like 1d6+1d6 sonic, +1 strength, +1 within 30 feet with bracers of archery, +1 arrows +5 damage from bardic music. That is 15 damage a peg at level 8, not mind-blowing but... 3+ other people in the party get +6 to attacks if full attacking, another attack, and another 5 damage a crack. The main fighter will love that, the rogue and monk appreciate that, and the cleric if he mixes it up in melee(most do, eventually) will appreciate that, too. So for 1 feat, 1 spell, and a 300 GP investment you can really benefit a lot of people and do a good 30 by yourself and a good 20-60(assuming full credit for damage that would have missed without your buffing, of course :D) from the other Hasted, Displaced, Elationed, Bardic Musiced party members. Don't buy into the stereotype that bards can't deal damage, it is just a bit more subtle than "Grognar rages and P attacks for 6".
Duke 05-30-06, 01:06 AM	I had a ftr2/brdx once who took monkey grip and EWP Greatspear, and large versions of the greatspear and greatsword. A large greatspear is 4d6 with a x3 crit and it has reach. Throw up inspire courage and inspire greatness plus a couple spells (rage), and that's how I did damage. Actually, I did most of my damage second hand, by pumping the other party members with buffs and then using blindness/deafness or hold monster on the enemies.
kelvinaw273 05-30-06, 01:16 AM	I'd go with all of the above. Get a decent shield and sword, or a decent missile weapon. Use weapon finesse. Use Arcane Strike for when you need to jack your damage up now and again. Flank enemies. Use your buffing spells and abilities.
Vaelan 05-30-06, 05:48 AM	Inspirational Boost+Song of the Heart+Masterwork Horn+Base is +5 to attacks and damages to a whole group, not shabby at all. The horn makes the effect last one round after you stop playing and you can't fight while playing a horn. I don't think that using the horn is worthwhile.
Tytalus 05-30-06, 06:44 AM	The horn makes the effect last one round after you stop playing and you can't fight while playing a horn. I don't think that using the horn is worthwhile. Depending on how you read the description, it's equally possible to assume that only the extra horn bonus ends one round after playing, which makes it ok.
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-30-06, 06:55 AM	Half-orc bard. Perform (percussion instruments). Two-weapon fighting. A pair of nice magic clubs. :smirk: May not be optimal but it should be amusing if nothing else, and it'd be at least some damage - you could play songs and fight at the same time!
Nom 05-30-06, 07:01 AM	You have two totally different questions here. It is quite easy to deliberately nerf a bard. But if you are going to do that, leave him (or her) at home and bring a real adventurer. In terms of an effective bard, a 9th level bard with inspire courage +2 and inspire greatness is a potent ally even if he uses no other abilities. A quick glance through his spell list (up to 3rd level) provides many extremely useful abilities. Finally (as already mentioned), he has combat capabilities on a par with a rogue's - not devastating, but by no means defenseless. However, if you want a solo fighter the bard is not it. The bard is an extremely potent support character, whose skill lies in multiplying the potency of his allies.
Vaelan 05-30-06, 08:21 AM	Depending on how you read the description, it's equally possible to assume that only the extra horn bonus ends one round after playing, which makes it ok. Only if you don't quite grasp the basic mechanics of a sentence.
Crash169 05-30-06, 09:59 AM	The Masterwork horn in complete adventurer only adds a bonus to Damage rolls. Not attack rolls as well.
Toxic_Shaman 05-30-06, 10:02 AM	Archery is a decent choice for an attack form for bards. They don't have good HP or AC usually which makes them a less than optimum melee combatants. Using a bow allows them to stay out of melee while still doing damage. They can sustain their bardic music while shooting arrows as long as they choose a perform skill like oratory or singing that does not require the use of hands. Bardic music is one of the key abilities of the bard, in or out of combat. In combat he can enhance the effectiveness of everyone's attacks (including his own) and can in some cases allow the group to avoid combat all together if he desires by using the Fascinate and Suggestion abilities.
Manus 05-30-06, 12:06 PM	I woke up a month ago and realized that in 20 years of playing d&d, I have never, not even once, in any edition, played a bard. So my next character is a bard. He is a warforged called the Monarch Performer Mark III. He, like your friend, has NO directly offensive abilities. I intend to make him useful to the party through an array of buff spells and illusion spells, plus his singing will give some nice morale bonuses to combat. When my DM heard I was playing a character who didn't even carry a single weapon, she was shocked. She thinks there must be some angle I'm working. There isn't. I'm just min/maxed to give some real high bonuses to the rest of the party. To answer a question from the OP: What will I do if separated from my party? Basically negotiate with my enemies and try to talk my way out of the situation (roleplay).
Toxic_Shaman 05-30-06, 01:15 PM	To answer a question from the OP: What will I do if separated from my party? Basically negotiate with my enemies and try to talk my way out of the situation (roleplay). A bard with high social skills and the Glibness spell can do wonders by just talking...as long as whoever he's talking to can understand him and is willing to listen long enough to talk. Great if you're dealing with bandits, not so hot if you run into a Dire Bear. Illusions and fleeing are also viable tactics in a solo game. You usually can't get killed if you can't be detected or caught. I think a non-combat bard could survive most things by himself Afetr all, there's always going to be something that any character can't handle.
Morrowner 05-30-06, 02:31 PM	Well, Invisibility with Expeditious Retreat/Haste up is a good way to beat a retreat, as is Alter Self into an Avoral. With boots of striding and springing you should have a fly speed of 100 perfect. That is pretty sweet! Greater Invisibility is a nice spell in the 4 slot, as is Invisibilty in the 2. Level 10-11 is when I like to take the cohort so I'd prolly have a level 8-9 dude who could hold his own, especially if I'm invisible and have him buffed to the gills. When invisible I can still cast certain spells and use wands to summon monsters.Can also use potions, wands, non-attack spells. There are some nice spells that are offensive for the bards. I almost always shoot for a very high Charisma score so its not unusual for me to have DCs in the 20s by 11+. Doesn't sound scary, but packing a few for the weak spots gives a pretty nice better than 50% shot of really sticking it to a bad guy. Ray of Dizziness, no save( (/\)007!1) in the 2 is a favorite of mine. Cloud of Bewilderment, though it used to be better is still pretty nice. Glitterdust and Confusion can really ruin somebody's day in the low levels, particularily grunts. The charm and hold spells are pretty solid, too.
Tytalus 05-30-06, 04:15 PM	Only if you don't quite grasp the basic mechanics of a sentence. I'm surprised you feel the need to turn this into a personal insult. :confused: Don't like intelligent discourse much? And you obvoiusly haven't read the relevant sentence carefully enough. The relevant text is as follows: "When a bard plays a horn to inspire courage, it raises the morale bonus on weapon damage rolls and saves against fear by 1, but the effect lasts for only 1 round after the ally stops hearing the bard perform." The wording is ambiguous at best. Depending on what you think "effect" refers to, both interpretations work. To me, the effect of the horn is the additional +1s it bestows. This additional bonus ends early, as the text describes. The regular bonuses of inspire courage are unaffected by that. YMMV.
mlund 05-30-06, 05:23 PM	Perform - Oratory Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Lyric Spell Make sure you take Inspirational Boost as a Level 1 Spell. Focus your Spells Selection on Healing Spells, Crowd Control, and grab Haste when you can get it. Use a Short Bow for the time being, until you hit Level 11 and branch out into Sublime Chord spellcasting. Then start making with the Ranged Touch Attack Death as a Damage Source with the Various Orb Spells. - Marty Lund
solbergb 05-30-06, 05:30 PM	Ok, I just gotta say this. If the bard never does anything but the following, the party will still be able to defeat nearly any challenge. This is built into the bard class, and does in fact obviate the need for a bard to take offensive capabilities, as long as the PLAYER is ok with doing this in almost every combat. #1. Cast haste (don't not pick haste) while the party is still clumped #2. Cast the best inspire courage you can (inspirational boost from CV helps, as can masterwork bard instruments from CV, if your DM allows) #3. Cast Inspire Competence on the party member in the most danger or if nobody is at risk, on the one most likely to dish out the most melee/missile damage next round. Repeat #3 or refresh #1 or 2 as needed. Low level bards with no offense have some issues contributing, but a 9+ level bard will supercharge any party with just those 3 abilities. IMHO a bard should also bring a few offensive spells (if his physical stats suck) or a bit of archery perhaps after all buffs are cast (if physical stats are good) so he can add a little to the butchery a party will do when he's lead with those maneuvers, but it isn't actually essential. What's wrong with the bard in the level 9-12 range isn't what he brings to the party. It's that the player gets bored with the same tactic every day and starts fooling around and not doing it, and instead doing something ineffective (such as shooting his crossbow for a mightly 1d8+1 damage instead of improving everybody's mobility and reflex save with haste, plus letting the archer get an extra attack every round, and the tank an extra attack every round after the first...and any of those attacks, archer or tank, doing 4-5x the damage he can do with his xbow) If the bard is caught by himself, and has no meaningful offense, he should use his formidable magic to disengage (low level bards have options on invisibility and silence, most higher level bards have dim door and/or freedom of movement, etc). At a minimum his fascinate ability will stop an opponent with a mind cold, long enough for him to slowly back away and maybe "suggest" them into leaving him alone. Not to mention his social skills....a bard is really only in trouble solo vs opposition immune to mind affecting or that he can't communicate with or that is somehow driven to kill him no matter what he says/does...and most of those he can evade. If you anticipate a situation that your friend's bard can't evade if caught by himself....then by all means use UMD to give him a bit of offense without diluting what he presumably does well.
Nom 05-30-06, 08:08 PM	I don't think inspire competence will work, since it's specifically described as granting "a +2 comptence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill". inspire greatness is a different matter. What's wrong with the bard in the level 9-12 range isn't what he brings to the party. It's that the player gets bored with the same tactic every day and starts fooling around and not doing it, and instead doing something ineffectiveThis problem can crop up at lower levels too. The bard in my party isn't built for combat and thus often has this problem - "OK, I've buffed the party. Now what do I do? Hide somewhere?". The buffs are very welcome, but once they're used he's rather stuck for options.
Morrowner 05-30-06, 11:41 PM	The Bard builds I do usually take all the archery feats Song of the Heart/Words of Creation if it is allowed or I qualify and Cohort. That is really all you need. Yes, combat can be boring. Bardic music, buffing and reminding of buffs, and full attacking with the bow is your bread and butter. Conversely, if you wanted a more melee type character I suggest forgoing the Rapier and using your whip-dagger proficiency. Same amount of damage PLUS you get 15 feet of reach which effects adjacent people. You can get a permanency shield/enchanted buckler and Alter Self into a Troglodyte for decent AC, not to mention Displacement and Greater Invisibility so you can actually 2 hand it and play as a STRONG bard! In melee! Gasp! Edit:Does provoke AoO.
tiercel 05-31-06, 12:28 AM	This problem can crop up at lower levels too. The bard in my party isn't built for combat and thus often has this problem - "OK, I've buffed the party. Now what do I do? Hide somewhere?". The buffs are very welcome, but once they're used he's rather stuck for options.Bards can debuff (e.g. hideous laughter, glitterdust, confusion), reactively buff with bardsong using the right feat (Ironskin Chant), take advantage of their own buffs to do a little archery, or heck, if nothing else, use a whip to give Aid Another actions to an ally from 15' away. If a bard builds to do nothing but buff, he should make sure he is in a position to benefit from his own buffs and contribute afterward. If the bard isn't 100% buffing magic, then he has magical options for later rounds. UMD is a great way to maintain utility as well. A 9th level bard could easily have +17-18 to UMD checks (10 ranks, +4-5 Cha bonus, +3 from circlet of persuasion) which means wands are pretty reliable. If he is feeling really lost, a wand of ray of enfeeblement or enlarge person or protection from evil or obscuring mist or shield of faith or magic missile or web or melf's acid arrow or touch of idiocy or silence or.... (heck... if you have access to the Complete X books and/or Spell Compendium, there are even more options, even for the low-level spells... and scrolls are an option too) [Edit to add:] whip-dagger... in 3.5 it is no longer considered ranged so you don't provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking. I don't disagree about the possibility of melee with a bard (though it's often more work than archery), but 3.5 whips, at least, specifically say they provoke AoO from adjacent foes despite being melee weapons. (Has the whip-dagger actually been reprinted in 3.5? I'd assume it would use the same basic rules as a whip, except for its damage output and dealing lethal damage normally.)
Morrowner 05-31-06, 01:49 AM	It doesn't matter if it was reprinted. WOTC has consistently stated that 3 stuff is compatible with 3.5 stuff unless updated. Soooooo.... Ditch the rapier, the whip-dagger is better. It says that is provokes and opportunity as a ranged weapon but is considered melee, I thought that it was changed in 3.5(thats how I played it and ruled it :embarrass). Still, cool points and it is pretty nifty.
Vaelan 05-31-06, 03:05 AM	I'm surprised you feel the need to turn this into a personal insult. You can go ahead and report my post if you think I am trying to insult you. I believe the term used by the mods is "baiting". However, this is nothing more than an honest opinion given from one who has not only studied English quite extensively, in both writing style and mechanics, but also pays attention to people who use the term ambiguous to come up with all sorts of silly advantages. The relevant text is as follows: "When a bard plays a horn to inspire courage, it raises the morale bonus on weapon damage rolls and saves against fear by 1, but the effect lasts for only 1 round after the ally stops hearing the bard perform." The wording is ambiguous at best. People bring up a lot of examples of ambiguous text that is merely a matter of insufficient reading skills, or sometimes a disincentive to applying the aforementioned reading skills. Not only is this sentence really very clear, but it is also supported by a profile of the general writing style that is shown in D&D supplements. If the description used the term "this effect", I would agree. However, it uses the term "the effect" and it is clear that the "effect" that is being referred to is the first one brought up in the sentence, which is Inspire Courage. Further, you can discern a pattern by looking at the benefits granted by other instruments. They tend come out as a near-zero sum. Under your interpretation, using a horn is a substantial benefit with no real disadvantage.
tiercel 05-31-06, 04:54 PM	Further, you can discern a pattern by looking at the benefits granted by other instruments. They tend come out as a near-zero sum. Under your interpretation, using a horn is a substantial benefit with no real disadvantage.Where it can get tricky is if you are a bard using a masterwork horn when you have the feat Lingering Song. Does the horn trump the feat? Does the feat trump the horn? Do you split the difference and houserule that Lingering horn-based Inspire Courage lasts for 2 rounds after the bard stops playing...?
Alac Luin 06-01-06, 01:47 AM	Replace the conjurer and take the Summon Monster spells.
tiercel 06-01-06, 03:15 AM	Replace the conjurer and take the Summon Monster spells.Ehhh... not my first choice. I mean, OK, cannon fodder, but you're behind the curve in terms of summoning power. Summon monster is arguably weaker than summon nature's ally to start with, and bard has delayed progression in getting the summon spells. Early on the lag isn't so bad, but if you stick to this program you are using summon monster VI to get CR 6-ish creatures at character level 16. Blah. (An actual conjurer of 16th level can get around CR 8-9, at least, with summon monster VIII, and Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning are going to help him more than you.) Given the few spells one can know as a bard, I think bards are better served by knowing other spells -- illusions, buffs, Will-save-targetting debuffs, what have you.
Tytalus 06-01-06, 04:54 PM	You can go ahead and report my post if you think I am trying to insult you. I believe the term used by the mods is "baiting". However, this is nothing more than an honest opinion [...] An honest opinion can be given without being rude. You read the rules differently – that’s fine. Saying or insinuating that I don't “understand basic English”, have “insufficient reading skills”, or basically lie (“use the term ‘ambiguous’ to come up with all sorts of silly advantages”) is not. I’m surprised that you, a person who claims to have “studied English quite extensively, in both writing style and mechanics” obviously do not grasp that difference. […] given from one who has not only studied English quite extensively, in both writing style and mechanics [...]. LOL, sure - on an anonymous message board everyone is an English professor. And is it a fallacy to assume that a person is right just because he is knowledgeable (if he really is). Let me suggest you read up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority Not only is this sentence really very clear, but it is also supported by a profile of the general writing style that is shown in D&D supplements. A nitpick for the appreciators of the English language: not the sentence itself is supported by the writing style, but your interpretation of it. And making such an unsubstantiated claim really doesn’t help. One could just as well claim that the “general writing style” of D&D supplements supports the opposite. If the description used the term "this effect", I would agree. However, it uses the term "the effect" and it is clear that the "effect" that is being referred to is the first one brought up in the sentence, which is Inspire Courage. The text describes the effect of the horn on bardic music, i.e., the +1 bonuses it confers. Further, you can discern a pattern by looking at the benefits granted by other instruments. They tend come out as a near-zero sum. Under your interpretation, using a horn is a substantial benefit with no real disadvantage. Again, you seem to not having read what you are talking about. The flute has a benefit with no drawbacks. So do the pan pipes. In fact, the only instrument that has a drawback that’s not a function of its design (i.e., the requirement to use two hands to play it) is the drum. If anything, the pattern seems to indicate that the horn should have no drawback. But “patterns” do not make for objective arguments, especially with such small a sample set (and with your education you would know that). All we can objectively say is that the assumption that “all instruments have a drawback” is clearly false. Furthermore, even for those instruments that do have a drawback, “near-zero sum” is simply not at all an objective term suitable as an argument in this context as we are comparing things like save modifiers to attack bonuses. Apples and oranges – at best. And whether the bonus conferred by the horn really is “substantial” compared to pan pipes or flute is also up for debate.