Bard Trouble! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard Trouble! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Davram_Natael
11-05-06, 12:44 AM Hi everyone! I'm new to the boards, and still fairly new to the D&D world (I played years ago, but just joined in a campaign last week...now played twice so far). I decided on the Bard class, and while I'm not unhappy with my choice at all, it seems our DM is a little too combat-happy and not very into the social interactions that a bard needs to really shine.

The problem is this: I pumped a lot of my skill points, spell choices, etc., into a character who can talk his way out of anything, talk someone else into anything, and basically be an all-out master when it comes to any kind of social interactions. I've got lots of points in all kinds of Knowledge, quite a bit in two kinds of Perform (Sing, and Dulcimer as my main instrument, as well as some in all the other types of Perform), a little in some of the DEX-type moves (Jump, Tumble, etc), as well as in things like Bluff, Sense Motive, etc. My spells include things like Charm Person, Whispering Wind (it sounded good at the time :P ), Glibness (which the other players NEVER give me a chance to use!), Scrying, Legend Lore, along with basic stuff like Detect Magic, Remove Fear...you know, supporting spells.

While my character is by no means a wimp when it comes to actual combat, I do have Sound Burst, which is effective as long as everyone else is out of range, and a modified version of Shout (5d6 5 times a day...my DM describes it as Cone of Cold, but, with sonic damage rather than cold damage). I'm also no easy meat when it comes to hand-to-hand combat (I'll spare the stats unless anyone wants 'em).

So, basically, here's my question...I just levelled up to level 11 tonight, and had to start thinking with my fists rather than my mind (my ONE 4th level spell I got to pick ended up being Summon Monster IV). I need to come with a good way for my character to do more than Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness for every fight. I feel so useless sometimes (although those songs do come in handy, and my Bardic knowledge has helped quite a bit). I need to know what someone may propose I do to help beef up his combat (either melee or magical), without having to sacrifice the type of character I made in the first place (one who is big on social interaction). If anyone has any suggestions, or knows of a website or book I can reference so that I may add some good stuff, or have some good stuff ready when the time comes to level up again, it would be greatly appreciated!

I've rambled on quite a bit, so I'll end this for now! Thanks in advance for any and all help I may get!

P.S. My character is a straight-up Bard, no multi-class. However, the way things are going, I think I may end up having to multi-class, although only as a last resort (most likely a Bard/Mage type thing).
Deep Blue 9000
11-05-06, 01:11 AM Do you have access to complete arcane?

There's a prestige class in called sublime chord that is ideal for the Bard/Mage archetype. They get 4 skill points a level and several bardic songs but also gain spells at the same rate and spell list as wizards/sorcs. You can enter it at your 11th level so you might want to reconsider taking that last level in Bard.

It is a very powerful PrC that goes a long way to make the combat weak Bards more deadly.
Morrowner
11-05-06, 11:50 AM n00b+bard=doubleplusungood.
There was a really nice thread about bard builds and equipment choosing that I thought was really fantastic, wish I would have bookmarked it.
MerlintheTuna
11-05-06, 11:52 AM The Sublime Chord is a great Prestige Class for those that want a more magical bard. It's certainly one solution to your problem. You may also want to look into the PHB2's retraining rules, which will let you get skill points out of the social skills you're not getting a chance to use and into more combat-y things.

Really though, I think the biggest issue here is initiative. Clearly, your DM favors fighting over intrigue. You've got basically 3 solutions. The first is adapt out-of-game, by changing your class/skills/spells, as we just covered. The second is trying to make your DM change out of game. Talk to him. Say "So, I've got about a million ranks in Knowledge: Local, Diplomacy, and Gather Information. It'd be swell to get some use out of them."

The third, and probably the one I favor, is for you to adapt in-game. You really hit the nail on the head when you said you can talk your way out of things or other people's way into things. Try to stress the latter. Don't wait for trouble to come -- go make some of your own! When the group is about to fastforward through a scene, hold your hand up and say, "Hold on, I've got to go talk to someone," and run a dialogue sequence.

Obviously, it's best to bring this up out of game as well. If you suddenly become very proactive and no one is ready for it, you're likely to get a few angry scowls, and your DM might resort to fiat to imprison you/etc. so the rest of the group can go back to hitting trolls in the junk with warhammers. But if you let the DM know ahead of time that he might have to do some improv then make the moves yourself, you could enrich the experience for the entire table and afford them key situational advantages in the next combat. You'd do well to read (and direct your DM to) Wolfgang Baur's Adventure Builder series on the Articles page. Specifically, read through the Roleplaying and Switch Encounters article. It's a great resource for learning how to influence combat in ways that aren't combat.
EscherEnigma
11-05-06, 02:35 PM My experience with a bard (only got to level 4 before the DM couldn't DM anymore due to class conflicts.) Was that even in combat I had alot to add. For myself, I took the archery feats point blank shot and precise shot so that I could comfortably be an archer. Sure, shortbows dont' do that great of damage but it's something to do while you're busy walking aroudn the battlefield doing different things.

Anyway, onto more of things that a bard can do in battle: Illusions in battle to distract monsters (it's fun when several of the monster's attack your illusions instead of party members, you might want to have your DM read up on disbelieving illusions though) healing (through potions wands and spells) to pick people up letting the cleric focus on the people who are REALLY hurt, the occasional purely offensive spell.

And, after all is said and done: most people will STILL really appreciate the +X/+X to hit and damage from your song.

Somethign I never got to play with that your character IS, is suggestion. This spell is great, and as a bard you can expend one of your bardsong uses for it. You can suggest great things, "I suggest you put that sword down and head back to the village where you'll have a nice refreshing brunch, and maybe a picnic later on." or simply "Here's a suggestion, walk into the next room and play dead for the next X hours"

Anyway, these are more of suggestions for what you can probably do with your bard already. Some of these I'm sure you've already figured out, but hope it does you some good.

Oh, and if you HAVE already pushed the limits of what a bard can do and it simply isn't meshing with the campaign: Talk to the DM about and ask if you can change your character in some way. Sure, if he wants to make a story about it you can go by the retraining rules, but in my experience most DMs will let you make small changes without issue. But talk to him and see what he thinks.
Cyresss
11-07-06, 10:53 AM Hey, Bards are support characters, deal with it. That said:

The Dragon disciple would give you some added hp and bonuses to stats that could be helpfull. Also, remember, that while you are not a front line fighter you make great bait. Be the one to offer to run up to the cave entrance and get the monsters to chase you into an ambush.

Weapon finess and weapon focus make you a more able fighter, but as Escher said, The bow feats make you able to run arround and support your party while getting in a few well placed shots. a few levels of fighter would give you a bunch of bonus feats, but would take away from your spell casting ability.

Remember, the bard is at it's best when it can help occupy and charm its opponents. Summon monster 4 is very useful to set up flanking and act as damage magnets. and don't underestimate a sonic cone of cold!!! that ability could do a lot of damage and it ignores hardness! You are the skeleton key!

good luck!
mlund
11-07-06, 02:40 PM Sublime Chord is the way to go. You suddenly have Orb spells and stuff like Dispel Magic, Greater and the like at your fingertips.

Invest in the Complete Arcane if you have a Bard over level 10. If you haven't played at level 11 yet, see if you can't take Sublime Chord 1 as your 11th level. Talk to your DM about retraining your Skills with PHBII if necessary.

- Marty Lund
KurenaiYami
11-07-06, 05:36 PM Complete Mage. Lyric Thaumaturge.

You get far more spells per day and you get Wizard/Sorcerer spells of your choosing to add to your spell list, as well as still getting more Bardic Music per day.
Marendithas_the_Necro
11-07-06, 05:58 PM I played a half-elf(with drow kin) with a lute who was a powerful musician. I played it until my DM restarted his campaign. What I could say, is that a bard is a very fun character class with a lot interpersonal skills and you could be somewhat usefull in combat.
Deacon Liadon
11-07-06, 07:33 PM Looking at the flavour behind your character, I'd be more inclined to go for the Seeker of the Song prestige class myself. It has some great abilities which can be used both in combat and outside of combat.

As for spells, if you have a good perform check and can find a copy of the issue of Dragon with the spell Fugue of Tvash-Prull in it, you may want to try it. It's a fourth level spell the effects of which vary depending on your perform check. he higher, the better. I once played a bard with this spell and, variously, killed everything on an airship in the first round of combat (nat 20 + a perform check of around +40), and the next two rounds smashed the airship up rather badly. Other effects of the spell include ability drain, negative levels, adn confusion.
Morrowner
11-08-06, 08:08 AM If you go into Sublime Chord or Lyric Thaumaturge some cool spells
Cloud of Bewilderment: 2nd level, nauseates for 1d6 rounds. Loved this spell in 3.0 when it blinded and stunned people on a failed save. Anything with a bad Forty was boned completely.
Ray of Dizziness: If this is still second level take it.
4th level spells
Hold Monster
Improved Invisibility
Fugue of Tvash-Prull If you've seriously jacked your Perform score with Circlets, items, max ranks, and a high Charisma score and can reasonably expect to get about a 30+ after a roll this is a very nice versatile spell. Nauseate or Stun everyone in a 30 foot spread, possibility for a huge roll or a natural 20 resulting in it working as Slay Living.:cool:
5th level has some nice spells, too.
Cacaphonic Burst(5th Level) 1d6 sonic damage a level in a 30 foot burst, caps to 15d6
The real 5th Level "money evocation" is Wail of Doom 1d4 damage a level(15d4) in a spread, all take -2 on saving throws, everyone flees on a failed save.
Fanfare to me is the capstone 6th level spell bard spell. Everyone in a 100 foot cone is stunned and deafened (1d4 rounds, deafened twice as long) NO SAVE and they take 4d6 damage.
Those last ones were so you'd stay straight Bardic. Keep the faith!
AlanBruce
11-08-06, 09:29 AM If your bard has a high Charisma and Intelligence, why not take a few levels in Warmage, from Complete Arcane? You will be able to contribute some damage to the battlefield while boosting your allies.
Morrowner
11-08-06, 01:22 PM Because at 5th level on up the Bard already gets several good offensive spells? Going for a class that ups his bardic casting is better than taking Warmage, hands down. Plus he'd lose out on bardic progression and uses.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Davram_Natael 11-05-06, 12:44 AM	Hi everyone! I'm new to the boards, and still fairly new to the D&D world (I played years ago, but just joined in a campaign last week...now played twice so far). I decided on the Bard class, and while I'm not unhappy with my choice at all, it seems our DM is a little too combat-happy and not very into the social interactions that a bard needs to really shine. The problem is this: I pumped a lot of my skill points, spell choices, etc., into a character who can talk his way out of anything, talk someone else into anything, and basically be an all-out master when it comes to any kind of social interactions. I've got lots of points in all kinds of Knowledge, quite a bit in two kinds of Perform (Sing, and Dulcimer as my main instrument, as well as some in all the other types of Perform), a little in some of the DEX-type moves (Jump, Tumble, etc), as well as in things like Bluff, Sense Motive, etc. My spells include things like Charm Person, Whispering Wind (it sounded good at the time :P ), Glibness (which the other players NEVER give me a chance to use!), Scrying, Legend Lore, along with basic stuff like Detect Magic, Remove Fear...you know, supporting spells. While my character is by no means a wimp when it comes to actual combat, I do have Sound Burst, which is effective as long as everyone else is out of range, and a modified version of Shout (5d6 5 times a day...my DM describes it as Cone of Cold, but, with sonic damage rather than cold damage). I'm also no easy meat when it comes to hand-to-hand combat (I'll spare the stats unless anyone wants 'em). So, basically, here's my question...I just levelled up to level 11 tonight, and had to start thinking with my fists rather than my mind (my ONE 4th level spell I got to pick ended up being Summon Monster IV). I need to come with a good way for my character to do more than Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness for every fight. I feel so useless sometimes (although those songs do come in handy, and my Bardic knowledge has helped quite a bit). I need to know what someone may propose I do to help beef up his combat (either melee or magical), without having to sacrifice the type of character I made in the first place (one who is big on social interaction). If anyone has any suggestions, or knows of a website or book I can reference so that I may add some good stuff, or have some good stuff ready when the time comes to level up again, it would be greatly appreciated! I've rambled on quite a bit, so I'll end this for now! Thanks in advance for any and all help I may get! P.S. My character is a straight-up Bard, no multi-class. However, the way things are going, I think I may end up having to multi-class, although only as a last resort (most likely a Bard/Mage type thing).
Deep Blue 9000 11-05-06, 01:11 AM	Do you have access to complete arcane? There's a prestige class in called sublime chord that is ideal for the Bard/Mage archetype. They get 4 skill points a level and several bardic songs but also gain spells at the same rate and spell list as wizards/sorcs. You can enter it at your 11th level so you might want to reconsider taking that last level in Bard. It is a very powerful PrC that goes a long way to make the combat weak Bards more deadly.
Morrowner 11-05-06, 11:50 AM	n00b+bard=doubleplusungood. There was a really nice thread about bard builds and equipment choosing that I thought was really fantastic, wish I would have bookmarked it.
MerlintheTuna 11-05-06, 11:52 AM	The Sublime Chord is a great Prestige Class for those that want a more magical bard. It's certainly one solution to your problem. You may also want to look into the PHB2's retraining rules, which will let you get skill points out of the social skills you're not getting a chance to use and into more combat-y things. Really though, I think the biggest issue here is initiative. Clearly, your DM favors fighting over intrigue. You've got basically 3 solutions. The first is adapt out-of-game, by changing your class/skills/spells, as we just covered. The second is trying to make your DM change out of game. Talk to him. Say "So, I've got about a million ranks in Knowledge: Local, Diplomacy, and Gather Information. It'd be swell to get some use out of them." The third, and probably the one I favor, is for you to adapt in-game. You really hit the nail on the head when you said you can talk your way out of things or other people's way into things. Try to stress the latter. Don't wait for trouble to come -- go make some of your own! When the group is about to fastforward through a scene, hold your hand up and say, "Hold on, I've got to go talk to someone," and run a dialogue sequence. Obviously, it's best to bring this up out of game as well. If you suddenly become very proactive and no one is ready for it, you're likely to get a few angry scowls, and your DM might resort to fiat to imprison you/etc. so the rest of the group can go back to hitting trolls in the junk with warhammers. But if you let the DM know ahead of time that he might have to do some improv then make the moves yourself, you could enrich the experience for the entire table and afford them key situational advantages in the next combat. You'd do well to read (and direct your DM to) Wolfgang Baur's Adventure Builder series on the Articles page. Specifically, read through the Roleplaying and Switch Encounters article. It's a great resource for learning how to influence combat in ways that aren't combat.
EscherEnigma 11-05-06, 02:35 PM	My experience with a bard (only got to level 4 before the DM couldn't DM anymore due to class conflicts.) Was that even in combat I had alot to add. For myself, I took the archery feats point blank shot and precise shot so that I could comfortably be an archer. Sure, shortbows dont' do that great of damage but it's something to do while you're busy walking aroudn the battlefield doing different things. Anyway, onto more of things that a bard can do in battle: Illusions in battle to distract monsters (it's fun when several of the monster's attack your illusions instead of party members, you might want to have your DM read up on disbelieving illusions though) healing (through potions wands and spells) to pick people up letting the cleric focus on the people who are REALLY hurt, the occasional purely offensive spell. And, after all is said and done: most people will STILL really appreciate the +X/+X to hit and damage from your song. Somethign I never got to play with that your character IS, is suggestion. This spell is great, and as a bard you can expend one of your bardsong uses for it. You can suggest great things, "I suggest you put that sword down and head back to the village where you'll have a nice refreshing brunch, and maybe a picnic later on." or simply "Here's a suggestion, walk into the next room and play dead for the next X hours" Anyway, these are more of suggestions for what you can probably do with your bard already. Some of these I'm sure you've already figured out, but hope it does you some good. Oh, and if you HAVE already pushed the limits of what a bard can do and it simply isn't meshing with the campaign: Talk to the DM about and ask if you can change your character in some way. Sure, if he wants to make a story about it you can go by the retraining rules, but in my experience most DMs will let you make small changes without issue. But talk to him and see what he thinks.
Cyresss 11-07-06, 10:53 AM	Hey, Bards are support characters, deal with it. That said: The Dragon disciple would give you some added hp and bonuses to stats that could be helpfull. Also, remember, that while you are not a front line fighter you make great bait. Be the one to offer to run up to the cave entrance and get the monsters to chase you into an ambush. Weapon finess and weapon focus make you a more able fighter, but as Escher said, The bow feats make you able to run arround and support your party while getting in a few well placed shots. a few levels of fighter would give you a bunch of bonus feats, but would take away from your spell casting ability. Remember, the bard is at it's best when it can help occupy and charm its opponents. Summon monster 4 is very useful to set up flanking and act as damage magnets. and don't underestimate a sonic cone of cold!!! that ability could do a lot of damage and it ignores hardness! You are the skeleton key! good luck!
mlund 11-07-06, 02:40 PM	Sublime Chord is the way to go. You suddenly have Orb spells and stuff like Dispel Magic, Greater and the like at your fingertips. Invest in the Complete Arcane if you have a Bard over level 10. If you haven't played at level 11 yet, see if you can't take Sublime Chord 1 as your 11th level. Talk to your DM about retraining your Skills with PHBII if necessary. - Marty Lund
KurenaiYami 11-07-06, 05:36 PM	Complete Mage. Lyric Thaumaturge. You get far more spells per day and you get Wizard/Sorcerer spells of your choosing to add to your spell list, as well as still getting more Bardic Music per day.
Marendithas_the_Necro 11-07-06, 05:58 PM	I played a half-elf(with drow kin) with a lute who was a powerful musician. I played it until my DM restarted his campaign. What I could say, is that a bard is a very fun character class with a lot interpersonal skills and you could be somewhat usefull in combat.
Deacon Liadon 11-07-06, 07:33 PM	Looking at the flavour behind your character, I'd be more inclined to go for the Seeker of the Song prestige class myself. It has some great abilities which can be used both in combat and outside of combat. As for spells, if you have a good perform check and can find a copy of the issue of Dragon with the spell Fugue of Tvash-Prull in it, you may want to try it. It's a fourth level spell the effects of which vary depending on your perform check. he higher, the better. I once played a bard with this spell and, variously, killed everything on an airship in the first round of combat (nat 20 + a perform check of around +40), and the next two rounds smashed the airship up rather badly. Other effects of the spell include ability drain, negative levels, adn confusion.
Morrowner 11-08-06, 08:08 AM	If you go into Sublime Chord or Lyric Thaumaturge some cool spells Cloud of Bewilderment: 2nd level, nauseates for 1d6 rounds. Loved this spell in 3.0 when it blinded and stunned people on a failed save. Anything with a bad Forty was boned completely. Ray of Dizziness: If this is still second level take it. 4th level spells Hold Monster Improved Invisibility Fugue of Tvash-Prull If you've seriously jacked your Perform score with Circlets, items, max ranks, and a high Charisma score and can reasonably expect to get about a 30+ after a roll this is a very nice versatile spell. Nauseate or Stun everyone in a 30 foot spread, possibility for a huge roll or a natural 20 resulting in it working as Slay Living.:cool: 5th level has some nice spells, too. Cacaphonic Burst(5th Level) 1d6 sonic damage a level in a 30 foot burst, caps to 15d6 The real 5th Level "money evocation" is Wail of Doom 1d4 damage a level(15d4) in a spread, all take -2 on saving throws, everyone flees on a failed save. Fanfare to me is the capstone 6th level spell bard spell. Everyone in a 100 foot cone is stunned and deafened (1d4 rounds, deafened twice as long) NO SAVE and they take 4d6 damage. Those last ones were so you'd stay straight Bardic. Keep the faith!
AlanBruce 11-08-06, 09:29 AM	If your bard has a high Charisma and Intelligence, why not take a few levels in Warmage, from Complete Arcane? You will be able to contribute some damage to the battlefield while boosting your allies.
Morrowner 11-08-06, 01:22 PM	Because at 5th level on up the Bard already gets several good offensive spells? Going for a class that ups his bardic casting is better than taking Warmage, hands down. Plus he'd lose out on bardic progression and uses.