bards and multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

bards and multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
technodemon
06-05-05, 10:59 AM I have a delima about defciding a class for a new charcater several people suggested a bard to multiclass with a sorcercer. My question is why would a bard multiclass into any other arcane-caster class?
Super Guy
06-05-05, 12:12 PM I certainly wouldn't. I hate being an arcane caster without full casting ability.
Asciiman
06-05-05, 01:13 PM Go fighter or barbarian. This way you can play the role of a Skald. A warrior-poet that were very respected in the time of vikings.

As for stats, get your Power Attack and cleave if you are going to melee, and maybe barbarian. But if you want to do range, go with fighter and take point blank shot and rapid shot and so on.

Only switch to heavier armor if you aren't going to take much more bard, because you can't cast without a penalty in medium or heavy armor. But if you are looking for something to just complement a bard, then just go with fighter. Pick up some extra combat feats. Essentially just play a more battle inclined bard, and use a heavy two handed weapon. Greatsword or something with reach like a polearm.

And remember, you are support, not the lead tank. Help the lead tank, or if the group has to fight in two directions, you hold back the weaker attacks.

If you do go with the polearm or a weapon with reach, get improved trip and combat reflexes. This way you can essentially start knocking people over to delay them from getting near the casters in the group or help out the lead tank by making it so he only has to fight one enemy at a time.
Torack
06-05-05, 01:23 PM For the same reason it would want to multiclass into a Rogue or Fighter.

Bards are great characters on their own, and have a decent spell-list in and of itself.

There are however certain people that believe the bard is underpowered(be it skill, spell or BAB wise). Since both the Bard and the Sorcerer use the Charisma modifier to determine the number/level of spells they can get, there's a synergy between the two classes. Just as with the Wizard/Psion.

Ideally, I'd stick with a normal bard, but if you feel the need to multiclass into anything pick out a PrC that adds to your bard abilities(Seeker of Song, Warchanter, Fochlucan Lyrist come to mind.)
The Man from Uncle
06-05-05, 01:36 PM My newest character will be a bard and i have to say that apart from a level as a rogue (1 in 8-10 levels) I don't know what else might work (build or character-wise). Truth is, the bards spell progression means you ain't going to get far if you move to another core class. There may be some good prestige classes but I don't know them and my brief trip to the character optimisation board left me baffled and confused. People there don't speak in English, they speak in abbreviations.

If you want to go as a bard, it may be best to just stick at it unless your character idea involves something else.
Kintara
06-05-05, 02:13 PM I have a delima about defciding a class for a new charcater several people suggested a bard to multiclass with a sorcercer. My question is why would a bard multiclass into any other arcane-caster class?Don't know. A far better solution would be to take the Prestige Class Sublime Chord, from Complete Arcane.

As far as mulitclassing a Bard with other core classes, there are only a couple I'd do. A couple or four levels of Fighter can make a Bard into a decent combatant, and you can always take Practiced Spellcaster to get back some of the lost spellcasting oomph. Also, splashing a level of Rogue might be good, if you need to be a Trapfinder. Most every group should have one.
The Half-Orc Wizard
06-05-05, 02:27 PM Continuing with Asciiman's idea, look in Unearthed Arcana. There's a Bard variant which does that idea of a Bard/Barbarian in one class. I think it's called "Savage Bard". Not sure how good it is, though.
Lana "Silvertongue"
06-05-05, 06:05 PM Whats the character concept? What do you want your character to aspire to. Build around that.
ReBell48
06-05-05, 06:37 PM Bard mixes well with a number of classes IMO (mostly non-caster). If you want a casting bard, look at Prestige Classes. As far as base classes, I really like the synergy between Bard and Marshall. A few level dip in Marshall can give the bard a couple Auras that give bonuses based on his charisma score. This can be very beneficial considering they (aura) are easy to keep active and affect all allies within a radius (I think 60'). I'm a big fan of the diplomat bard using the marshall aura that adds to cha checks. I also like the dex aura that adds to dex checks (hide, move silently, tumble, and some other good ones) and initiative.
Flushmaster
06-05-05, 06:43 PM Unless you have a specific in character reason to multiclass or want to go for some specific PrC (like the Fochlucan Lyrist), I suggest you don't. A bard is a jack of all trades, and does a little bit of everything; good ad almost everything but great at nothing. If you wanted to be a powerful caster then you should have been a sorceror or wizard (or, using splatbooks, a warmage or wu jen). If you wanted to be a super sneaky infiltrator/assasin type then you should have been a rogue (or ninja). If you wanted to kill everything in sight with weapons then you should have went with just about anything with a d10 or d12 hit die. A bard does a little of each of these things with a few extras to boot (like healing spells and bardic music).

If you read Order of the Stick, a great example of this is when Elan first meets his long lost twin brother and tells him that he's a bard.

"A bard? Father always told me that bards were weak!"
"Well what are you?"
"I'm a multiclassed fighter/rogue/sorceror specializing in enchantment spells."
"Umm, isn't that a bit overcomplicated?"

Multiclassing is done to gain abilities not inherent to your first class. Bard is effectively a "premixed" class and it's usually a dumb idea to mix after that. Unless of course you want to go for a bardic prestige class like seeker of the song or sublime chord or such, but those are specifically designed for bards and their varied abilities.

Don't forget the inherent flexibility of the bard class either. While the point of the class, mechanically, is to be able to do a little bit of everything your skills and feats can make you notably better at one aspect. Battle Caster, Proficiency: greatsword, and Power Attack can make you a half decent backup to the party's tank, and a couple of archery feats can make you great combat support when combined with your music (I had a greatbow wielding bard once, and she did make a notable difference in combats). Spell Focus: Enchantment, selecting enchantments as most of your spells, and maxing your ranks in bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate might allow you to avoid some combats entirely (or end them faster) and has a lot of use with NPCs, you'd basically be a fast talking enchanter. Hide, move silently, listen, and tumble make you ready to join the rogue, ninja, scout, or ranger while they go scouting ahead or sneaking into an enemy stronghold or such; the Track feat and survival skill makes you a decent replacement for a ranger or scout if you're in a wilderness campaign and the party doesn't have one. Several of these "focuses" might be done simultaneously, if you have enough skill points.
kirellagen
06-05-05, 06:54 PM Better yet, be a human bard and multi-class into a Chameleon at 6th level. The Chameleon URL is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1
That way, your a bard/just about anything at any given time! :cool:

Kire
ninjarabbit
06-05-05, 07:14 PM I like a level of fighter for martial weapons, more armor (take the battlecaster feat), +2 to fort saves, and the bonus feat
Flushmaster
06-05-05, 10:39 PM Yeah, I will admit that fighter is pretty much the best multiclass option for most non-melee classes if you want to do a single level of multiclassing to pick up some useful abilities. Even a wizard can benefit from gaining proficiency with a longbow (if not an elf), the extra hit points, fort save bonus, and the bonus feat includes enough defensive oriented choices as well as the various ranged combat feats that can be applied to ray spells. All this for the loss of only one level of spellcasting; not really my thing since I'm a bit of a spell *****, but I can easily see the merit. Of course, if you're a barbarian or such, the only real bonus you get is an extra feat at the cost of a level's worth of rage or other class features so it's better to stick to the other class (makes sense since it's a different way of doing the same thing, more or less).

If you wanted to dip in for two levels in another class then you might go for monk or rogue. Both get evasion at level 2 and the monk has strong bonuses to all saves, wisdom bonus to AC, plus a few other things that aren't particularly useable for spellcasters (though a touch spell can be delivered with an unarmed strike, so a shocking grasp spell could become a shocking left hook if you hit with it, but bards don't use such attack spells) and the rogue's sneak attack can help out as well. But two caster levels is usually way too much for me to give up and a bard can't go into monk due to alignment restrictions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
technodemon 06-05-05, 10:59 AM	I have a delima about defciding a class for a new charcater several people suggested a bard to multiclass with a sorcercer. My question is why would a bard multiclass into any other arcane-caster class?
Super Guy 06-05-05, 12:12 PM	I certainly wouldn't. I hate being an arcane caster without full casting ability.
Asciiman 06-05-05, 01:13 PM	Go fighter or barbarian. This way you can play the role of a Skald. A warrior-poet that were very respected in the time of vikings. As for stats, get your Power Attack and cleave if you are going to melee, and maybe barbarian. But if you want to do range, go with fighter and take point blank shot and rapid shot and so on. Only switch to heavier armor if you aren't going to take much more bard, because you can't cast without a penalty in medium or heavy armor. But if you are looking for something to just complement a bard, then just go with fighter. Pick up some extra combat feats. Essentially just play a more battle inclined bard, and use a heavy two handed weapon. Greatsword or something with reach like a polearm. And remember, you are support, not the lead tank. Help the lead tank, or if the group has to fight in two directions, you hold back the weaker attacks. If you do go with the polearm or a weapon with reach, get improved trip and combat reflexes. This way you can essentially start knocking people over to delay them from getting near the casters in the group or help out the lead tank by making it so he only has to fight one enemy at a time.
Torack 06-05-05, 01:23 PM	For the same reason it would want to multiclass into a Rogue or Fighter. Bards are great characters on their own, and have a decent spell-list in and of itself. There are however certain people that believe the bard is underpowered(be it skill, spell or BAB wise). Since both the Bard and the Sorcerer use the Charisma modifier to determine the number/level of spells they can get, there's a synergy between the two classes. Just as with the Wizard/Psion. Ideally, I'd stick with a normal bard, but if you feel the need to multiclass into anything pick out a PrC that adds to your bard abilities(Seeker of Song, Warchanter, Fochlucan Lyrist come to mind.)
The Man from Uncle 06-05-05, 01:36 PM	My newest character will be a bard and i have to say that apart from a level as a rogue (1 in 8-10 levels) I don't know what else might work (build or character-wise). Truth is, the bards spell progression means you ain't going to get far if you move to another core class. There may be some good prestige classes but I don't know them and my brief trip to the character optimisation board left me baffled and confused. People there don't speak in English, they speak in abbreviations. If you want to go as a bard, it may be best to just stick at it unless your character idea involves something else.
Kintara 06-05-05, 02:13 PM	I have a delima about defciding a class for a new charcater several people suggested a bard to multiclass with a sorcercer. My question is why would a bard multiclass into any other arcane-caster class?Don't know. A far better solution would be to take the Prestige Class Sublime Chord, from Complete Arcane. As far as mulitclassing a Bard with other core classes, there are only a couple I'd do. A couple or four levels of Fighter can make a Bard into a decent combatant, and you can always take Practiced Spellcaster to get back some of the lost spellcasting oomph. Also, splashing a level of Rogue might be good, if you need to be a Trapfinder. Most every group should have one.
The Half-Orc Wizard 06-05-05, 02:27 PM	Continuing with Asciiman's idea, look in Unearthed Arcana. There's a Bard variant which does that idea of a Bard/Barbarian in one class. I think it's called "Savage Bard". Not sure how good it is, though.
Lana "Silvertongue" 06-05-05, 06:05 PM	Whats the character concept? What do you want your character to aspire to. Build around that.
ReBell48 06-05-05, 06:37 PM	Bard mixes well with a number of classes IMO (mostly non-caster). If you want a casting bard, look at Prestige Classes. As far as base classes, I really like the synergy between Bard and Marshall. A few level dip in Marshall can give the bard a couple Auras that give bonuses based on his charisma score. This can be very beneficial considering they (aura) are easy to keep active and affect all allies within a radius (I think 60'). I'm a big fan of the diplomat bard using the marshall aura that adds to cha checks. I also like the dex aura that adds to dex checks (hide, move silently, tumble, and some other good ones) and initiative.
Flushmaster 06-05-05, 06:43 PM	Unless you have a specific in character reason to multiclass or want to go for some specific PrC (like the Fochlucan Lyrist), I suggest you don't. A bard is a jack of all trades, and does a little bit of everything; good ad almost everything but great at nothing. If you wanted to be a powerful caster then you should have been a sorceror or wizard (or, using splatbooks, a warmage or wu jen). If you wanted to be a super sneaky infiltrator/assasin type then you should have been a rogue (or ninja). If you wanted to kill everything in sight with weapons then you should have went with just about anything with a d10 or d12 hit die. A bard does a little of each of these things with a few extras to boot (like healing spells and bardic music). If you read Order of the Stick, a great example of this is when Elan first meets his long lost twin brother and tells him that he's a bard. "A bard? Father always told me that bards were weak!" "Well what are you?" "I'm a multiclassed fighter/rogue/sorceror specializing in enchantment spells." "Umm, isn't that a bit overcomplicated?" Multiclassing is done to gain abilities not inherent to your first class. Bard is effectively a "premixed" class and it's usually a dumb idea to mix after that. Unless of course you want to go for a bardic prestige class like seeker of the song or sublime chord or such, but those are specifically designed for bards and their varied abilities. Don't forget the inherent flexibility of the bard class either. While the point of the class, mechanically, is to be able to do a little bit of everything your skills and feats can make you notably better at one aspect. Battle Caster, Proficiency: greatsword, and Power Attack can make you a half decent backup to the party's tank, and a couple of archery feats can make you great combat support when combined with your music (I had a greatbow wielding bard once, and she did make a notable difference in combats). Spell Focus: Enchantment, selecting enchantments as most of your spells, and maxing your ranks in bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate might allow you to avoid some combats entirely (or end them faster) and has a lot of use with NPCs, you'd basically be a fast talking enchanter. Hide, move silently, listen, and tumble make you ready to join the rogue, ninja, scout, or ranger while they go scouting ahead or sneaking into an enemy stronghold or such; the Track feat and survival skill makes you a decent replacement for a ranger or scout if you're in a wilderness campaign and the party doesn't have one. Several of these "focuses" might be done simultaneously, if you have enough skill points.
kirellagen 06-05-05, 06:54 PM	Better yet, be a human bard and multi-class into a Chameleon at 6th level. The Chameleon URL is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1 That way, your a bard/just about anything at any given time! :cool: Kire
ninjarabbit 06-05-05, 07:14 PM	I like a level of fighter for martial weapons, more armor (take the battlecaster feat), +2 to fort saves, and the bonus feat
Flushmaster 06-05-05, 10:39 PM	Yeah, I will admit that fighter is pretty much the best multiclass option for most non-melee classes if you want to do a single level of multiclassing to pick up some useful abilities. Even a wizard can benefit from gaining proficiency with a longbow (if not an elf), the extra hit points, fort save bonus, and the bonus feat includes enough defensive oriented choices as well as the various ranged combat feats that can be applied to ray spells. All this for the loss of only one level of spellcasting; not really my thing since I'm a bit of a spell *****, but I can easily see the merit. Of course, if you're a barbarian or such, the only real bonus you get is an extra feat at the cost of a level's worth of rage or other class features so it's better to stick to the other class (makes sense since it's a different way of doing the same thing, more or less). If you wanted to dip in for two levels in another class then you might go for monk or rogue. Both get evasion at level 2 and the monk has strong bonuses to all saves, wisdom bonus to AC, plus a few other things that aren't particularly useable for spellcasters (though a touch spell can be delivered with an unarmed strike, so a shocking grasp spell could become a shocking left hook if you hit with it, but bards don't use such attack spells) and the rogue's sneak attack can help out as well. But two caster levels is usually way too much for me to give up and a bard can't go into monk due to alignment restrictions.