Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Netjack 01-01-08, 07:01 PM	So I have a character who has two weapon fighting, and a sneak attack of 6d6, with the ability to faint a group of foes as a free action, cause them too all be flat footed on the same turn. So I thought I could technically I could sneak attack 4 people on the same turn as a full around action, each getting a different blow of 6d6. However, my DM says that I can only attack one target with a full round attack. On D20srd it reads as this. "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones." He states this is meant for feats that allow you to do so, like multi-shot. He also states that since i multi classed, my highest base attack is +8/+1, However, I thought the base attack modifier where set depending on your highest base attack, so the moment I have a +8, i would also get a second attack of +3. If there is a feat that is needed to attack multiple people, then please tell me. However, if you can simply do it wit ha high enough base attack, tell me, and show me the specific page number if you can. :)
DarkRhystar 01-01-08, 07:08 PM	So I have a character who has two weapon fighting, and a sneak attack of 6d6, with the ability to faint a group of foes as a free action, cause them too all be flat footed on the same turn. The Invisible Blade's Feint Mastery ability was errata'd (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/CompleteWarrior_Errata08022005.zip) to once per round. Feinting does not cause the enemy to be flat-footed, only denied its Dex AC. So I thought I could technically I could sneak attack 4 people on the same turn as a full around action, each getting a different blow of 6d6. However, my DM says that I can only attack one target with a full round attack. You may attack multiple people with a full attack if you are able. He states this is meant for feats that allow you to do so, like multi-shot. Multishot allows you to fire multiple times with a standard action instead of a full round action. That's its purpose. He also states that since i multi classed, my highest base attack is +8/+1, However, I thought the base attack modifier where set depending on your highest base attack, so the moment I have a +8, i would also get a second attack of +3. Each iterative attack is at -5. If your BAB is +8, your iterative attack set is +8/+3. Keep in mind, though, that AB is not BAB. Do not confuse the two. If there is a feat that is needed to attack multiple people, then please tell me. However, if you can simply do it wit ha high enough base attack, tell me, and show me the specific page number if you can. :) You need no feat to attack multiple people on a full-attack. This is implied on page 143, Phb with the phrase: You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time.
Anyr 01-01-08, 07:09 PM	You're correct. If you perform a Full Attack then you can not only choose separate targets for each of your attacks, but can also see the results of each one before deciding where the next one goes. The BaB of a multiclass character is found by adding those of his individual classes together. If the value is +6 or higher then they're entitled to the same amount of extra attacks, at the same bonus, as a single class character. As for page references, the one you have just quoted seems to be about as unambiguous as it gets. If the passage was referring to feats as opposed to normal attacks then it would specifically say so.
Netjack 01-01-08, 11:51 PM	I was aware of it being able to be only used once per round. I was using it with the skill trick group fake out. :) I'm even more amazed that you knew what it was by that description, is this a popular idea? :eek: I just had another question, does fainting also make a monk lose thier wisdom bonus to their AC, or just their dex? While we are on the subject of monks, can a monk furry of blows multiple targets as well? As in, could a level 10 monk hit 3 different targets?
kuonji 01-02-08, 02:13 AM	As long as you can reach the enemies, you can attack as many different opponents as you have attacks. This is true for any race/class/monster/whatever. AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. Feinting does not make a monk helpless or immobilized, so no, Feinting does not remove the wisdom bonus to AC
DarkRhystar 01-02-08, 08:32 AM	I was aware of it being able to be only used once per round. I was using it with the skill trick group fake out. :) I'm even more amazed that you knew what it was by that description, is this a popular idea? :eek: Not necessarily popular, but I've seen it before. :) I just had another question, does fainting also make a monk lose thier wisdom bonus to their AC, or just their dex? While we are on the subject of monks, can a monk furry of blows multiple targets as well? As in, could a level 10 monk hit 3 different targets? See kuonji's post above.
Cifer 01-02-08, 11:03 AM	You do realize you can use a skill trick only once per encounter, don't you? Unless attacks specify they do have to go to the same target, they can be shared around freely.
Netjack 01-02-08, 12:45 PM	Cifer You do realize you can use a skill trick only once per encounter, don't you? I thought it was once per encounter, or once per a minute, which ever came first. Yes I do, but doing something like that could be dang useful, even once, for example, with certain ambush feats. I've seen people go out of their way to get feats they can only do once per day, sometimes for something even less useful. Two skill points for that would be well worth it.
Netjack 01-02-08, 05:18 PM	So my DM still refuses to believe me, he states that it is still only meant for feats, such as whirled wind attack, and roundhouse kick, or circle kick, "I forgot what he said for that one". Apparently he wants a line the specifically says you can attack multiple times with a full round action. He also called everyone here wrong. I don't know what I can say to tell him otherwise. He sees the writing, but refuses to believe what it says, this might be one thing for a spell in one of the many books out there, but when its a core rule, its just frustrating. He might as well change all classes hit die to 1d2, except when he wants to kill the players.
Merestil Haye 01-02-08, 06:57 PM	Let's start with the FAQ :My DM thinks that if you have four attacks in a round, and you’re using the full attack action, you have to designate all your targets at the beginning of the round, and that you can’t switch your targets once you start rolling your attacks. I think you choose the target for any attack after you have seen the effect of your last attack. Please help us. Well, your DM is always right, but the rules are on your side. You pick a target for each of your attacks as you make the attacks, not at the beginning of your turn; see the description of the full attack action in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook.Since this refers us to the PHB, we can look it up in the SRD. (I'm temporarily without my PHB, sorry.)Full Attack If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones. The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks. If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.(Bolding mine.) There, that should be explicit enough. It says so right in the printed rules. Refer to the Full Attack description in the PHB if you want it on paper.
DrMorganes 01-02-08, 06:58 PM	A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack. Combine that with what's been quoted before, and *poof* proof of both multiple attacks AND the ability to assign attacks "on the fly". Pretty clear, in my opinion... Understand, however, that you must be able to reach your targets. You get ONE 5' step as part of your full attack. (Reference link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack)) If you're surrounded and using a melee weapon, you would be able to attack as many targets as you can reach, i.e., those in adjacent squares, up to the number of attacks allowed by your BAB and feats. In your case this amounts to THREE attacks, not FOUR. TWF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponFighting) grants ONE offhand attack as part of a Full Attack. Your iterative attacks are made with your primary hand. If you were using a missile weapon, like a bow, you'd get TWO attacks for the targets you select, based on your iterative attacks. Using thrown weapons, you'd still only get two attacks (one primary, one offhand) unless you have Quick Draw. Then you'd get to throw three weapons: two primary, one offhand. In each case, Sneak Attack damage would apply to all targets within 30' that are denied their DEX bonus. That said, your DM has the final say at his table. You can like it or not, but if he insists on modifying the rules there's little you can do other than suck it up and play, or walk. Edit: D'oh! Missed it by that much....
Merestil Haye 01-02-08, 07:09 PM	Edit: D'oh! Missed it by that much....Yes, but I missed the lack of reference to ITWF. ;)
DarkRhystar 01-02-08, 08:51 PM	So my DM still refuses to believe me, he states that it is still only meant for feats, such as whirled wind attack, and roundhouse kick, or circle kick, "I forgot what he said for that one". Apparently he wants a line the specifically says you can attack multiple times with a full round action. He also called everyone here wrong. I don't know what I can say to tell him otherwise. He sees the writing, but refuses to believe what it says, this might be one thing for a spell in one of the many books out there, but when its a core rule, its just frustrating. He might as well change all classes hit die to 1d2, except when he wants to kill the players. Sounds like your DM has reached the point where he will ignore even logical proof such as above. That's a shame.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-02-08, 09:24 PM	Ask your DM to find the rules text which states that you are required to make all of your attacks against the same target. In the absence of such rules text, the limitation does not exist. -- Now, it's possible that your DM is freaking out at the prospect of you making four sneak attacks like that, thinking that it's far too powerful, and is using this rules debate as a way to try to prevent it. If so, it isn't too powerful. The developers of 3E intended that the rogue would be able to use sneak attack with pretty much every attack he makes, and that includes the ones who get lots of attacks due to two weapon fighting. In practice, what you're doing is actually probably less powerful than if you were landing four sneak attacks against one target - unless you're using this techniques to clear away mooks, it's usually better to take down one target at a time as fast as possible rather than to damage several ones somewhat. Or is this another area where he's a bit confused? A rogue who is flanking, or a rogue who is attacking a target who is denied their Dex bonus, can make as many sneak attacks against that target as he has attacks. This is explicitly different from old-E, where you could only make one, ever.
Cifer 01-03-08, 07:50 PM	He also called everyone here wrong. Please do ask him why it is that on WotC's very own forum, which should be the forum for all things D&D, five posters have agreed with you with not a single person agreeing with him. Of course the majority is not always right, but being a one-man-minority should be reason to overthink one's position.
ToastedAmphibian 01-03-08, 11:43 PM	Also, keep in mind that you can make a 5ft step with a full atack. So they dont all have to be within reach when you start, you can hit four of them, then 5ft step next to a fourth and proceed to hit him as well.
Dalzig 01-04-08, 04:28 AM	Feinting does not cause the enemy to be flat-footed, only denied its Dex AC.I know this is true, but what are the actual differences? For every case I can think of, the two are practically the same.
Merestil Haye 01-04-08, 08:58 AM	I know this is true, but what are the actual differences? For every case I can think of, the two are practically the same.In addition to being denied Dex bonus to AC, a flat-footed character cannot take attacks of opportunity and cannot take an immediate action.
Zherog 01-04-08, 10:07 AM	In addition to what Merestil said, Uncanny Dodge protects against being flat-footed, but does not protect against simply losing your Dex to AC.
Cifer 01-04-08, 09:43 PM	In addition to what Merestil said, Uncanny Dodge protects against being flat-footed, but does not protect against simply losing your Dex to AC. So does foresight and probably some more effects. Being flatfooted is a condition which causes effects (no AoOs, no Dex to AC) while being denied Dex to AC is an effect caused by some conditions (flatfooted, climbing/balancing without 5 ranks)
Netjack 01-08-08, 07:34 PM	Something I didn't know, you can also sneak attack as an AOP, so could i sneak attack multiple people if they where all around me getting back up from prone, and I had combat reflexes and a high dex?
Thubby 01-08-08, 08:07 PM	Something I didn't know, you can also sneak attack as an AOP, so could i sneak attack multiple people if they where all around me getting back up from prone, and I had combat reflexes and a high dex? prone does not take dex from AC, so you could attack them, not sneak attack them
Cifer 01-08-08, 08:15 PM	prone does not take dex from AC, so you could attack them, not sneak attack them Unless of course you're for example invisible at the time. However, Thubby is correct in saying that being prone does not make one vulnerable to sneak attacks.