Post/Author/DateTime	Post
J_Riley 08-11-04, 09:43 AM	Our party consists of 3rd-4th level PCs as follows: 4th Dwarf Fighter (tank) 4th Human Monk 3rd 1/2 Elf Cleric 3rd Human Druid 3rd Elf Archer2/Wizard1 3rd Human Rogue Last session, we got smoked by a well planned Gnoll ambush. Initially, it was just 4 of them in the middle of the road ahead of us demanding our gold. We dismounted and basically said **** off. The Dwarf charges, the Cleric casts a spell (Bless) the archer shoots his bow, the Druid summons a monster. (the Rogue and Monk were absent from the session) Then, the fit hit the shan. Gnoll archers up in the trees and at least one magic user casting flaming sphere (there were actually 2 flaming spheres cast). Our spot checks sucked, we only ever spotted one archer in a tree, though from the number of attacks, we know there were at least 4. The Gnoll archers peppered the archer and the Druid, the Dwarf got swarmed and knocked out after 3 consecutive hits. The Cleric was burned and chased by one flaming sphere. The other burned the archer, who was down to about 25% HP before drinking a potion. We survived the combat by *****ing out and giving up our gold. Was just wondering if anyone had any decent 'escape' plans from a situation such as this? I think we should have stayed on our horses and charged those mofos in the road and plowed past them...but hindsight is 20/20. Once you are in the fight and get outnumbered, how do you get away???
Krelios 08-11-04, 09:47 AM	Run. Let them take a few pot shots at you, but if the Dwarf could have Expeditious Retreat cast on him, you could all outrun the Gnolls. If they stop to shoot, you get an extra 90 feet on them (you're running at x4, they move 30' and shoot). If they don't stop, then you're not getting shot at. If the Dwarf couldn't get ER'd, then he gets left behind and probably loses his gold (or dies). The party can compensate him for his lost gold when they come back--it's better than losing everything. Besides, if you track the gnolls after the robbery, then you can ambush them.
Ilium 08-11-04, 10:02 AM	Hmm. 8 well-prepared gnolls against 4 3rd-level PCs? I believe that's an EL of about 6. Maybe 7 given that it was a prepared ambush. I'm not surprised you lost. It's hard to comment on your options without knowing equipment/spellse/etc. available, but I think staying on the horses would have been a good idea. Is there a reason you didn't get back on the horses when you realized you were outnumbered? Too many AoO? When you say "We survived the combat by *****ing out and giving up our gold." what does that mean? You surrendered or you fled, dropping gold behind you?
Naeron 08-11-04, 10:12 AM	Originally posted by J_Riley <snip> Then, the fit hit the shan. Gnoll archers up in the trees and at least one magic user casting flaming sphere (there were actually 2 flaming spheres cast). Our spot checks sucked, we only ever spotted one archer in a tree, though from the number of attacks, we know there were at least 4. <snip> This may have been a mistake. Remaining hidden after shooting comes under the sniping section of the skill and it is a -20 on the hide check. If they were standard Gnolls out of the MM they have a Hide check of +0 so they would have checks between -19 and 0. Your spot checks would take -1/10ft and possibly the -5 for spotted distracted (for those actually in melee) so I think your rolls would have had to be truly, and consistently, abysmal not to see the archers once they had fired. You get to spot them after each shot as well.
Harmor 08-11-04, 10:29 AM	Stay at range when starting a combat. No need to commit directly while you're low levels. Your 'tanks' can't really tank when they have less than 50 hit points. Heck 1 critical from a Greataxe can do upwards of 30 points of damage so your tanks won't be very effective. Stay at range, and in your case, say on your horses. If you stay on your horses you get a +1 to hit :D Also horses move alot faster than you, especially your dwarf. Many encounters (I've played several dwarves), we couldn't run away from because I was a slow dwarf, or we had a halfing rogue in our party with the same problem. The rogue, however, would usually hide since he couldn't outrun encounters, I on the other hand often got pelted by arrows til I found total cover. Perhaps nexttime if you spot them before they spot you then you take 20 on your spot check while you guys hide in the brush off the road, if possible. /shrug, I'm not sure our party would had done the same. The encounter sounds a little difficult for you guys at your level. Also I would add at least a +1 to the ECL because it was an ambush. Good luck and hope you guys live.
J_Riley 08-11-04, 12:58 PM	Originally posted by Naeron This may have been a mistake. Remaining hidden after shooting comes under the sniping section of the skill and it is a -20 on the hide check. If they were standard Gnolls out of the MM they have a Hide check of +0 so they would have checks between -19 and 0. Your spot checks would take -1/10ft and possibly the -5 for spotted distracted (for those actually in melee) so I think your rolls would have had to be truly, and consistently, abysmal not to see the archers once they had fired. You get to spot them after each shot as well. Well, they were not MM Gnolls. They are an indigenous super (opposite of sub) race (homebrew world), they are significantly tougher and smarter than regular gnolls. Our DM hinted that before we encountered them that not every situation/encounter is one that we can win. We should have taken the hint. Having said that, Naeron, you are correct, I'm quite sure our DM didn't apply the -20 penalty after they fired. I have +5 to my spot checks and I came up with nothing on a Spot check of 24, so I had the feeling something was amiss. I will bring this up with the DM this weekend. What I was trying to come up with was a standard retreat plan, like covering our escape with Obscuring Mist or something similar. Maybe using Silent Image with Ghost sounds to create some significant distractions, but I'm a little unsure of the limitations of Silent Image.
Tasaleen 08-11-04, 04:47 PM	Well Druids are great for this. Cast entangle and run. If followed SNA and slow them down. The archers in the trees would be lucky to get out of an entangle spell.
netwilly 08-11-04, 11:54 PM	Originally posted by Tasaleen Well Druids are great for this. Dwarves are even better for this. While all the gnolls pound the slow Dwarf, the rest of the party can make good their escape.
Sae Cael Oanar 08-12-04, 12:10 AM	smokesticks and caltrops are your friends. added together correctly and you have a bunch of stumbling blind enemies. I make sure to carefully place caltrops outside of a door before drawing the enemies out into the open, where i also prefer to fight. also if your enemy is in said room a strategy i sometimes use is sticking smokesticks underneath it, smoking my enemies out, and perhaps doing some good damage with the smoke. another good thing is oil. oil burns well with lots of smoke, it can make a wall for you to hide behind, enemies may not want to forego the fire or the thick smoke. this again can be combined with caltrops to make flaming caltrops, another useful gadget. you can use trip lines too, thats a very effective way to get a hand up on your opponent. they make a failed spot and a failed dex check and they are flat on their face. i suppose this is not the most manly way to fight, but i prefer to know about and prepare for my enemies.
Zilred 08-12-04, 03:28 AM	This is proof as to why even low-CR creatures, played intelligently, can be dangerous. I had a 10-person party (levels 8 to 4) assault a bunch of Hobgoblins in a narrow guardroom. The hobgoblins saw them coming and flipped a table and placed their two archers (Rogue1) behind it. The two sergeants (Fighter2) were at the sides of the door, and a lesser minion (Warrior1) was between the table and the wall, barring the party from going around the table. The end result was the cleric getting severely wounded, the paladin nearly getting killed (due to prior injuries), two fighters being brought to half health, and the bard taking a good beating. They were about half their number and less than half their level, and they still were challenging. For low-level characters, they will need to play just as smart to take on tough opponents. They will also need to learn to recognize encounters that are just too tough to deal with. The gnoll encounter fits this, especially when ambushed by superior numbers. However, the encounter was also difficult to see coming. Failed spot checks can do that sometimes.
Sae Cael Oanar 08-12-04, 03:49 AM	adding to zilred. basically position is vital. if you can come up with some good battle formations (considering so many characters) with some good "plays" then youre set. you should have a couple scouts. the rogue being sneaky or the monk being fast work well for this. any battle can be overcome with proper planning. the trick to winning is really knowing about your opponent before they know about you.
J_Riley 08-12-04, 09:30 AM	Originally posted by Ilium Is there a reason you didn't get back on the horses when you realized you were outnumbered? Too many AoO? Well, by the time we realized we were in trouble, the dwarf got knocked out, and he was about 60 ft from the horses. There were also 2 flaming spheres between him (and the Cleric) and the horses. Originally posted by Ilium When you say "We survived the combat by *****ing out and giving up our gold." what does that mean? You surrendered or you fled, dropping gold behind you? I mean, we b*tched out, yelled stop, stop! Here, take our gold! Then they let us pass. It was a very humiliating experience, one I hope to never have to repeat. But we had at least killed 2 of them...