Becoming Large. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Becoming Large. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mentaner
09-28-06, 02:36 PM Hello! I'm Mentaner and I'm looking for some help, since my DM and I are trying to find out what will happen when my character, an Astral Deva, will, any time now, gain his 19th HD, which in effect means becoming Large. My DM has suggested that this will only incur a -1 to AC and attack rolls, plus a-4 to hide checks and a +4 to grapple. But then I pointed out that according to page 12 of the Monster Manual my character should also get a +8 bonus to Str, a +4 to Con, a +2 to natural armor, and suffer a -2 to Dex. He suggested, on the other hand that such ability adjustments have already taken place, but I argued that these were with regard to my early stages, up to 12th HD. So, I would very much appreciate your insight, since we have decided to take matters to arbitration.
Aeromus
09-28-06, 02:50 PM His 19th hit die is a level Hit Die from a class?

If so he doesn't become large. The MM size progression is for classless versions that a DM needs to beef up to be a challenge for a higher level party.
tizonacampeador
09-28-06, 04:54 PM Is this monster levels or are you just advancing HD like levels?
Gauze Fireforge
09-29-06, 12:14 AM Hello! I'm Mentaner and I'm looking for some help, since my DM and I are trying to find out what will happen when my character, an Astral Deva, will, any time now, gain his 19th HD, which in effect means becoming Large. My DM has suggested that this will only incur a -1 to AC and attack rolls, plus a-4 to hide checks and a +4 to grapple. But then I pointed out that according to page 12 of the Monster Manual my character should also get a +8 bonus to Str, a +4 to Con, a +2 to natural armor, and suffer a -2 to Dex. He suggested, on the other hand that such ability adjustments have already taken place, but I argued that these were with regard to my early stages, up to 12th HD. So, I would very much appreciate your insight, since we have decided to take matters to arbitration.

I presume you are using the savage species progression and if so, you gain your large status and thats it. You dont get the additional strength and what not because that has already been incorporated into the progression so that you have the same stats as an average deva as described in the MM.
runestar
09-29-06, 05:01 AM Note that the progression of the astral deva in SS is erronous. You should not become large at ECL19, since a MM astral deva still remains medium sized at that juncture.

I would advise you to just ignore it.

Also, you might want to retabulate your racial ability adjustments. IIRC, the SS progression is missing the dex bonus you should get. An astral deva should get +8 dex, you have probably already been shortchanged by about 6 points.:(

You will want to compare the progression with the current version in the MM3.5 and make restitution for any statistical discrepancies.:)

However, if you still want to become large, you will not get the stat modifiers. You simply get -1AC, -1to hit, in exchange for reach.:P
Kradlo
09-29-06, 05:56 PM To be precise, I take it you're gaining the 19th level in the Astral Deva class from Savage Species, which actually is your 12th hit die. At that point you become Large, as listed in SS.

The size change means a -1 size penalty to attack rolls, a -1 size penalty to Armor Class, a +4 size bonus to Grapple checks, and a -4 penalty to Hide checks, plus you gain a 10-foot natural reach.

You don't change your other ability scores due to the size change; those are already factored into the ability score increases in the savage progression levels.

As this is your 12th hit die, you will gain another feat. Note that the DR for an astral deva in 3.5 is DR 10/evil. Runestar is also correct that the standard astral deva is still Medium sized, not Large, and that it should have a Dex bonus of +8 by that level. Your GM may wish to review this and make a ruling.
Chrono Nexus
09-29-06, 06:22 PM Enlarge Person
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 1, Strength 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.
A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target’s speed.
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,.
Enlarge person counters and dispels reduce person.
Enlarge person can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
Material Component: A pinch of powdered iron.

As a side note, increasing size also increases weight.
Your DM is correct to want to base enlargement off of this spell... but since you are playing a monster character, the MM takes presedence. Of course, I would also rule that an increased size increases a creatures LA, and an increase in size may merit an entire levels worth of exp.
Kradlo
09-29-06, 09:07 PM The GM did not base the size modifiers off the spell enlarge person. Those are part of the basic rules for size.

He won't gain any ability score changes from the size change; those are already factored into the savage progression. There's no level adjustment for a savage progression; the monster levels take the place of a LA.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mentaner 09-28-06, 02:36 PM	Hello! I'm Mentaner and I'm looking for some help, since my DM and I are trying to find out what will happen when my character, an Astral Deva, will, any time now, gain his 19th HD, which in effect means becoming Large. My DM has suggested that this will only incur a -1 to AC and attack rolls, plus a-4 to hide checks and a +4 to grapple. But then I pointed out that according to page 12 of the Monster Manual my character should also get a +8 bonus to Str, a +4 to Con, a +2 to natural armor, and suffer a -2 to Dex. He suggested, on the other hand that such ability adjustments have already taken place, but I argued that these were with regard to my early stages, up to 12th HD. So, I would very much appreciate your insight, since we have decided to take matters to arbitration.
Aeromus 09-28-06, 02:50 PM	His 19th hit die is a level Hit Die from a class? If so he doesn't become large. The MM size progression is for classless versions that a DM needs to beef up to be a challenge for a higher level party.
tizonacampeador 09-28-06, 04:54 PM	Is this monster levels or are you just advancing HD like levels?
Gauze Fireforge 09-29-06, 12:14 AM	Hello! I'm Mentaner and I'm looking for some help, since my DM and I are trying to find out what will happen when my character, an Astral Deva, will, any time now, gain his 19th HD, which in effect means becoming Large. My DM has suggested that this will only incur a -1 to AC and attack rolls, plus a-4 to hide checks and a +4 to grapple. But then I pointed out that according to page 12 of the Monster Manual my character should also get a +8 bonus to Str, a +4 to Con, a +2 to natural armor, and suffer a -2 to Dex. He suggested, on the other hand that such ability adjustments have already taken place, but I argued that these were with regard to my early stages, up to 12th HD. So, I would very much appreciate your insight, since we have decided to take matters to arbitration. I presume you are using the savage species progression and if so, you gain your large status and thats it. You dont get the additional strength and what not because that has already been incorporated into the progression so that you have the same stats as an average deva as described in the MM.
runestar 09-29-06, 05:01 AM	Note that the progression of the astral deva in SS is erronous. You should not become large at ECL19, since a MM astral deva still remains medium sized at that juncture. I would advise you to just ignore it. Also, you might want to retabulate your racial ability adjustments. IIRC, the SS progression is missing the dex bonus you should get. An astral deva should get +8 dex, you have probably already been shortchanged by about 6 points.:( You will want to compare the progression with the current version in the MM3.5 and make restitution for any statistical discrepancies.:) However, if you still want to become large, you will not get the stat modifiers. You simply get -1AC, -1to hit, in exchange for reach.:P
Kradlo 09-29-06, 05:56 PM	To be precise, I take it you're gaining the 19th level in the Astral Deva class from Savage Species, which actually is your 12th hit die. At that point you become Large, as listed in SS. The size change means a -1 size penalty to attack rolls, a -1 size penalty to Armor Class, a +4 size bonus to Grapple checks, and a -4 penalty to Hide checks, plus you gain a 10-foot natural reach. You don't change your other ability scores due to the size change; those are already factored into the ability score increases in the savage progression levels. As this is your 12th hit die, you will gain another feat. Note that the DR for an astral deva in 3.5 is DR 10/evil. Runestar is also correct that the standard astral deva is still Medium sized, not Large, and that it should have a Dex bonus of +8 by that level. Your GM may wish to review this and make a ruling.
Chrono Nexus 09-29-06, 06:22 PM	Enlarge Person Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 1, Strength 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid creature Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size. A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target’s speed. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size. All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell. Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,. Enlarge person counters and dispels reduce person. Enlarge person can be made permanent with a permanency spell. Material Component: A pinch of powdered iron. As a side note, increasing size also increases weight. Your DM is correct to want to base enlargement off of this spell... but since you are playing a monster character, the MM takes presedence. Of course, I would also rule that an increased size increases a creatures LA, and an increase in size may merit an entire levels worth of exp.
Kradlo 09-29-06, 09:07 PM	The GM did not base the size modifiers off the spell enlarge person. Those are part of the basic rules for size. He won't gain any ability score changes from the size change; those are already factored into the savage progression. There's no level adjustment for a savage progression; the monster levels take the place of a LA.