beguiler in a draconic campaign. [Archive] - Wizards Community

beguiler in a draconic campaign. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
invaladuser
11-23-06, 12:15 PM Im planning on being a beguiler in a campaign heavly based on fighting things with the dragconic blood or aspects. How do you make your illousins more powerfull against a dragon. It has all of those senses so it should be able to figure out that most of them are fake. How can I make him more usefull. Im thinking either human or halfling. That and starting level is 3rd or 4th. Can I get a hand. I looked at some of the treads on how to help fool the senses and such that have been posted. I need a hand.
Nimbus
11-23-06, 02:03 PM Let's see...

Gnomes get a +1 on the DC of their illusions.
The spell focus and greater spell focus feats will get you another +1 each.
invaladuser
11-23-06, 07:15 PM Im talking about a way to fool a dragon. They would get the will save right after it is casted. Blind sense, sent (I think). some can even detect thoughts. It could easly spot out the differnces. So im looking for hints and confusing dragons. I like to envoce common sense in a charater.
MareltEkiran
11-23-06, 07:54 PM The Major Image spell creates illusions that have thermal and scent components, as well as all the usual audial, visual, etc... So nothing short of a True Sight would see through them... I believe Major Image was specifically made to foil Blindsight, as opposed to the lesser Minor Image spell. Perhaps Detect Thoughts would do the trick, but that requires the dragon to concentrate on the image, wasting his precious turns in combat. Furthermore... It would be useless against illusions of non-living things, such as walls.

Also, the Beguiler has party buffing spells. If you can't confound the dragon anymore, then a Haste, Dispel Magic, Freedom of Movement, See Invisibility, etc. would make the battle easier on those that are busy beating it up.
And if the Dragon decides to bring non-undead minions, then the beguiler will show him the error of his ways, with a few well-placed suggestions or dominations.
invaladuser
11-24-06, 12:47 PM its starting at low level so I wouldnt be able to cast it for a while. Any other ideas? please.:D
MareltEkiran
11-24-06, 01:33 PM Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat, Grease (if you use the corrected spell list).

Although, I think that the appropriate question would be: Why on earth is a low-level beguiler fighting true dragons in the first place?
Xaktsaroth
11-24-06, 02:45 PM Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat, Grease (if you use the corrected spell list).

Although, I think that the appropriate question would be: Why on earth is a low-level beguiler fighting true dragons in the first place?

I have to agree there.

I know the silence spell on yourself would mean he can't hear you, a solid fog-ish type spell means he wouldn't see you, and I'm fairly sure there is a spell that foils tremermorse was well, just can't think of it, ATM.

I know the Hordestealer PrC from Dragonomicon makes YOU invisible to dragons.

Major image seems to be your best bet. If you only need to get past him, a scroll of it would do. :)
Derren S.
11-24-06, 02:51 PM The Major Image spell creates illusions that have thermal and scent components, as well as all the usual audial, visual, etc... So nothing short of a True Sight would see through them...

And Blindsense/sight as they rely on air pressure/waves and some other things. At least the dragon would get an immediate saving throw for the illusion when in blindsense range.
MareltEkiran
11-24-06, 04:19 PM That's the odd thing with blindsense/blindsight. The description states that even though the ability has the same name, different creatures use different manners to manifest it.

For example, a bat can blindsense because of echolocation. Because an illusion is not physical, the blindsense would beat it, in this case. However, the description in the DMG states that some creatures use a very acute sense of smell or heat-location in order to find their prey, in which case Major Image would show up on their sensors.

Unfortunately, the MM description of dragons does not state what their blindsense is based on, so that makes it hard to judge. I somehow doubt that they use echolocation. They don't use tremorsense (because that's a different ability altogether) and sharp eyes don't beat illusions (unless it is True Seeing, which they don't have).
The only thing I can base my judgement on is from the description in Tolkien's "The Hobbit", where Smaug manages to pinpoint Bilbo through his extremely acute sense of smell... It's a good of a source as any, given that D&D was at least in it's most basic forms based off the works of Tolkien.

It pretty much comes down to your DM's ruling. I would rule that Major Image would fool a dragon's senses, but it may differ, depending on who's ruling.

To get back to the original question... Wyrmling and Very Young dragons have decent, but not extremely high will saves, nor do they have SR. So you can at least risk an illusion or enchantment attack spell... you'll still have a decent chance of pulling it off.
And if you're fighting any dragons older than that as a low-level beguiler who can't even cast Major Image... Then the only spell you should be casting is Expeditious Retreat and run like hell.
invaladuser
11-24-06, 07:39 PM Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat, Grease (if you use the corrected spell list).

Although, I think that the appropriate question would be: Why on earth is a low-level beguiler fighting true dragons in the first place?

Yeah the dragons are low level like wyrmling around there. Im keeping distance with my trusty gnome cross bow. Gonna use stuff from races of stone.
X-Codes
11-24-06, 07:47 PM Yeah the dragons are low level like wyrmling around there. Im keeping distance with my trusty gnome cross bow. Gonna use stuff from races of stone.
If you're using stuff from Races of Stone, then you can just throw around some Shadow Evocations when you find yourself unable to fool a Dragon's senses.

The Draconomicon has lots of spells designed to combat creatures with the strengths typical to Dragons: high NA, DR, SR, and extraordinary senses, along with more.

Lords of Madness also has the Darkstalker feat. This forces dragons to still make Spot checks regardless of whether or not you're within range of their Blindsense.
invaladuser
11-24-06, 10:47 PM If you're using stuff from Races of Stone, then you can just throw around some Shadow Evocations when you find yourself unable to fool a Dragon's senses.

The Draconomicon has lots of spells designed to combat creatures with the strengths typical to Dragons: high NA, DR, SR, and extraordinary senses, along with more.

Lords of Madness also has the Darkstalker feat. This forces dragons to still make Spot checks regardless of whether or not you're within range of their Blindsense.

yeah i looked thought the spells in dracomicon and none of them were in the enchentment or illousin schools so a bugiler cant learn them with advanced learning. Also what shadow evocations are in races of stone i just looked thought the spell which were surprisingly low. Oh and the dragons were fighting at are level are very young, wyrmling like.
Sphyre
11-25-06, 01:25 AM Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat, Grease (if you use the corrected spell list).

Although, I think that the appropriate question would be: Why on earth is a low-level beguiler fighting true dragons in the first place?

Corrected spell list? Is that something that someone on the forums cooked up or something? Seems in line with the beguiler... but I don't see anything about it anywhere... mind pointing me in the right direction to see what that's all about?
X-Codes
11-25-06, 02:14 AM yeah i looked thought the spells in dracomicon and none of them were in the enchentment or illousin schools so a bugiler cant learn them with advanced learning. Also what shadow evocations are in races of stone i just looked thought the spell which were surprisingly low. Oh and the dragons were fighting at are level are very young, wyrmling like.
No spells, but one class: Shadowcraft Mage. Lookup the Killer Gnome thread on the CO Boards for the run-down on why it's the most versatile illusionist in the game.
MareltEkiran
11-25-06, 03:34 AM Corrected spell list? Is that something that someone on the forums cooked up or something? Seems in line with the beguiler... but I don't see anything about it anywhere... mind pointing me in the right direction to see what that's all about?

It is a discord within the description of the beguiler itself. In the Combat section of the beguiler description, it states that beguilers can "control the terrain with spells such as grease and fog cloud."
However, in the beguiler spell list, the spell is not mentioned and since it is a conjuration spell, beguilers have no way of learning it. So the question then becomes: which one of the two was wrong? The combat description or the spell list.

Given that beguilers generally have decent battlefield control and grease is such a battlefield staple spell, a fair amount of people consider the spell list to have accidentially omitted the grease spell and added it in.
Sphyre
11-25-06, 03:25 PM Ah i see. Thanks for that clear up. I agree, it is much in line with it. There are other spells that the beguiler has that are not of the school of enchantment and illusion, or universal that fit the beguiler, I would agree that grease would be a reasonable spell for them to have, too.
ravenshrike
11-26-06, 07:07 PM yeah i looked thought the spells in dracomicon and none of them were in the enchentment or illousin schools so a bugiler cant learn them with advanced learning. Also what shadow evocations are in races of stone i just looked thought the spell which were surprisingly low. Oh and the dragons were fighting at are level are very young, wyrmling like.
The Shadow Evoc, Conj spells allow you to cast any evoc/conj spell of the level lower than the shadow spell. Just hope they fail their will save, which as a beguiler they probably will, especially if you go gnome or grey elf beguiler with SF and GSF. This gets you a +3. Then you get another 2 DC added by 20th level. There's the benefits of Cloaked Casting as well. Grey elf would probably be better because it nets you an extra bonus spell, which is always useful, and you get proficiency with a bunch of weapons and the 30ft land speed, however if you are planning on multiclassing your beguiler instead of going straight 20, the gnome would give a few more illusion possibilities.
invaladuser
11-26-06, 08:04 PM Yeah I was looking in the beguilers spell list and the only shadow spell is shadow walk, the only way for them to learn more is by using advanced learning. And with that It would take 11th level to either learn shadow evoc or shadow wall I think were there names. Thanks for the ideas. Have a druid and scout on the team and so far my roll is either lead the enemy into a trap or tomrent the other players and npcs in down time with my hand of the mage and advanced learning of ventrelquism. Yeah and im a gnome.
Delfedd
11-26-06, 08:14 PM There are actually a few things you can do.

Don't make physical creatures.

When you get spells like silent image, simply summon up a storm of shadows. This explains why the dragon cannot touch them, smell them, hear them, or taste them.

Once you get Major image, you can make creatures and effects outside the dragons blindsense range. And of course, there are always shadow conjuration spells.

Also, an excellent feat to take to gain more offensive spells would be Arcane Disciple from Complete divine. This can give you access to more offensive spells, more buffing spells, or more healing spells. A beguiler or warmage with Arcane Disciple (Healing) is just as potent as a cleric with her heal spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
invaladuser 11-23-06, 12:15 PM	Im planning on being a beguiler in a campaign heavly based on fighting things with the dragconic blood or aspects. How do you make your illousins more powerfull against a dragon. It has all of those senses so it should be able to figure out that most of them are fake. How can I make him more usefull. Im thinking either human or halfling. That and starting level is 3rd or 4th. Can I get a hand. I looked at some of the treads on how to help fool the senses and such that have been posted. I need a hand.
Nimbus 11-23-06, 02:03 PM	Let's see... Gnomes get a +1 on the DC of their illusions. The spell focus and greater spell focus feats will get you another +1 each.
invaladuser 11-23-06, 07:15 PM	Im talking about a way to fool a dragon. They would get the will save right after it is casted. Blind sense, sent (I think). some can even detect thoughts. It could easly spot out the differnces. So im looking for hints and confusing dragons. I like to envoce common sense in a charater.
MareltEkiran 11-23-06, 07:54 PM	The Major Image spell creates illusions that have thermal and scent components, as well as all the usual audial, visual, etc... So nothing short of a True Sight would see through them... I believe Major Image was specifically made to foil Blindsight, as opposed to the lesser Minor Image spell. Perhaps Detect Thoughts would do the trick, but that requires the dragon to concentrate on the image, wasting his precious turns in combat. Furthermore... It would be useless against illusions of non-living things, such as walls. Also, the Beguiler has party buffing spells. If you can't confound the dragon anymore, then a Haste, Dispel Magic, Freedom of Movement, See Invisibility, etc. would make the battle easier on those that are busy beating it up. And if the Dragon decides to bring non-undead minions, then the beguiler will show him the error of his ways, with a few well-placed suggestions or dominations.
invaladuser 11-24-06, 12:47 PM	its starting at low level so I wouldnt be able to cast it for a while. Any other ideas? please.:D
MareltEkiran 11-24-06, 01:33 PM	Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat, Grease (if you use the corrected spell list). Although, I think that the appropriate question would be: Why on earth is a low-level beguiler fighting true dragons in the first place?
Xaktsaroth 11-24-06, 02:45 PM	Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat, Grease (if you use the corrected spell list). Although, I think that the appropriate question would be: Why on earth is a low-level beguiler fighting true dragons in the first place? I have to agree there. I know the silence spell on yourself would mean he can't hear you, a solid fog-ish type spell means he wouldn't see you, and I'm fairly sure there is a spell that foils tremermorse was well, just can't think of it, ATM. I know the Hordestealer PrC from Dragonomicon makes YOU invisible to dragons. Major image seems to be your best bet. If you only need to get past him, a scroll of it would do. :)
Derren S. 11-24-06, 02:51 PM	The Major Image spell creates illusions that have thermal and scent components, as well as all the usual audial, visual, etc... So nothing short of a True Sight would see through them... And Blindsense/sight as they rely on air pressure/waves and some other things. At least the dragon would get an immediate saving throw for the illusion when in blindsense range.
MareltEkiran 11-24-06, 04:19 PM	That's the odd thing with blindsense/blindsight. The description states that even though the ability has the same name, different creatures use different manners to manifest it. For example, a bat can blindsense because of echolocation. Because an illusion is not physical, the blindsense would beat it, in this case. However, the description in the DMG states that some creatures use a very acute sense of smell or heat-location in order to find their prey, in which case Major Image would show up on their sensors. Unfortunately, the MM description of dragons does not state what their blindsense is based on, so that makes it hard to judge. I somehow doubt that they use echolocation. They don't use tremorsense (because that's a different ability altogether) and sharp eyes don't beat illusions (unless it is True Seeing, which they don't have). The only thing I can base my judgement on is from the description in Tolkien's "The Hobbit", where Smaug manages to pinpoint Bilbo through his extremely acute sense of smell... It's a good of a source as any, given that D&D was at least in it's most basic forms based off the works of Tolkien. It pretty much comes down to your DM's ruling. I would rule that Major Image would fool a dragon's senses, but it may differ, depending on who's ruling. To get back to the original question... Wyrmling and Very Young dragons have decent, but not extremely high will saves, nor do they have SR. So you can at least risk an illusion or enchantment attack spell... you'll still have a decent chance of pulling it off. And if you're fighting any dragons older than that as a low-level beguiler who can't even cast Major Image... Then the only spell you should be casting is Expeditious Retreat and run like hell.
invaladuser 11-24-06, 07:39 PM	Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat, Grease (if you use the corrected spell list). Although, I think that the appropriate question would be: Why on earth is a low-level beguiler fighting true dragons in the first place? Yeah the dragons are low level like wyrmling around there. Im keeping distance with my trusty gnome cross bow. Gonna use stuff from races of stone.
X-Codes 11-24-06, 07:47 PM	Yeah the dragons are low level like wyrmling around there. Im keeping distance with my trusty gnome cross bow. Gonna use stuff from races of stone. If you're using stuff from Races of Stone, then you can just throw around some Shadow Evocations when you find yourself unable to fool a Dragon's senses. The Draconomicon has lots of spells designed to combat creatures with the strengths typical to Dragons: high NA, DR, SR, and extraordinary senses, along with more. Lords of Madness also has the Darkstalker feat. This forces dragons to still make Spot checks regardless of whether or not you're within range of their Blindsense.
invaladuser 11-24-06, 10:47 PM	If you're using stuff from Races of Stone, then you can just throw around some Shadow Evocations when you find yourself unable to fool a Dragon's senses. The Draconomicon has lots of spells designed to combat creatures with the strengths typical to Dragons: high NA, DR, SR, and extraordinary senses, along with more. Lords of Madness also has the Darkstalker feat. This forces dragons to still make Spot checks regardless of whether or not you're within range of their Blindsense. yeah i looked thought the spells in dracomicon and none of them were in the enchentment or illousin schools so a bugiler cant learn them with advanced learning. Also what shadow evocations are in races of stone i just looked thought the spell which were surprisingly low. Oh and the dragons were fighting at are level are very young, wyrmling like.
Sphyre 11-25-06, 01:25 AM	Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat, Grease (if you use the corrected spell list). Although, I think that the appropriate question would be: Why on earth is a low-level beguiler fighting true dragons in the first place? Corrected spell list? Is that something that someone on the forums cooked up or something? Seems in line with the beguiler... but I don't see anything about it anywhere... mind pointing me in the right direction to see what that's all about?
X-Codes 11-25-06, 02:14 AM	yeah i looked thought the spells in dracomicon and none of them were in the enchentment or illousin schools so a bugiler cant learn them with advanced learning. Also what shadow evocations are in races of stone i just looked thought the spell which were surprisingly low. Oh and the dragons were fighting at are level are very young, wyrmling like. No spells, but one class: Shadowcraft Mage. Lookup the Killer Gnome thread on the CO Boards for the run-down on why it's the most versatile illusionist in the game.
MareltEkiran 11-25-06, 03:34 AM	Corrected spell list? Is that something that someone on the forums cooked up or something? Seems in line with the beguiler... but I don't see anything about it anywhere... mind pointing me in the right direction to see what that's all about? It is a discord within the description of the beguiler itself. In the Combat section of the beguiler description, it states that beguilers can "control the terrain with spells such as grease and fog cloud." However, in the beguiler spell list, the spell is not mentioned and since it is a conjuration spell, beguilers have no way of learning it. So the question then becomes: which one of the two was wrong? The combat description or the spell list. Given that beguilers generally have decent battlefield control and grease is such a battlefield staple spell, a fair amount of people consider the spell list to have accidentially omitted the grease spell and added it in.
Sphyre 11-25-06, 03:25 PM	Ah i see. Thanks for that clear up. I agree, it is much in line with it. There are other spells that the beguiler has that are not of the school of enchantment and illusion, or universal that fit the beguiler, I would agree that grease would be a reasonable spell for them to have, too.
ravenshrike 11-26-06, 07:07 PM	yeah i looked thought the spells in dracomicon and none of them were in the enchentment or illousin schools so a bugiler cant learn them with advanced learning. Also what shadow evocations are in races of stone i just looked thought the spell which were surprisingly low. Oh and the dragons were fighting at are level are very young, wyrmling like. The Shadow Evoc, Conj spells allow you to cast any evoc/conj spell of the level lower than the shadow spell. Just hope they fail their will save, which as a beguiler they probably will, especially if you go gnome or grey elf beguiler with SF and GSF. This gets you a +3. Then you get another 2 DC added by 20th level. There's the benefits of Cloaked Casting as well. Grey elf would probably be better because it nets you an extra bonus spell, which is always useful, and you get proficiency with a bunch of weapons and the 30ft land speed, however if you are planning on multiclassing your beguiler instead of going straight 20, the gnome would give a few more illusion possibilities.
invaladuser 11-26-06, 08:04 PM	Yeah I was looking in the beguilers spell list and the only shadow spell is shadow walk, the only way for them to learn more is by using advanced learning. And with that It would take 11th level to either learn shadow evoc or shadow wall I think were there names. Thanks for the ideas. Have a druid and scout on the team and so far my roll is either lead the enemy into a trap or tomrent the other players and npcs in down time with my hand of the mage and advanced learning of ventrelquism. Yeah and im a gnome.
Delfedd 11-26-06, 08:14 PM	There are actually a few things you can do. Don't make physical creatures. When you get spells like silent image, simply summon up a storm of shadows. This explains why the dragon cannot touch them, smell them, hear them, or taste them. Once you get Major image, you can make creatures and effects outside the dragons blindsense range. And of course, there are always shadow conjuration spells. Also, an excellent feat to take to gain more offensive spells would be Arcane Disciple from Complete divine. This can give you access to more offensive spells, more buffing spells, or more healing spells. A beguiler or warmage with Arcane Disciple (Healing) is just as potent as a cleric with her heal spells.