Beguiler/Duskblade, Cool, but... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beguiler/Duskblade, Cool, but... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tyrandor
12-29-07, 12:45 PM ... are they actually viable class?

We just got the PHB2, and to be honest, reading the Beguiler's intro more or less felt like they were talking about my current Wizard character. He lies and cheat frequently and use his magic to make it look good.

In battle he uses his magic to enfeeble the enemy and change the battleground to his allies' advantage (typical level 1 spell line up is: Sleep, Ray of Enfeeblement and Grease) so that they can do the slashing and dicing. I see him as a trickster, a con-man and a battleground controller.

Problem is... the Beguiler's ability look a bit gimmicky. Sure, you can wear light Armor and you got slightly more Hit Points - but to me, that doesn't make getting in close combat in order to get a Feint off seems really appealing. Not to mention that it comes at the cost of limited spell selection and slower spell acquisition - doesn't seem worth the trade off. Especially since our party already has a Rogue in it.

I can play my Wizard like a Beguiler regardless... but is the Beguiler actually a viable class through out? Does his power scale well with those of other class? How about prestige class? Or is he just a gimmick, made to sucker in people who couldn't figure out if they wanted a wizard or a rogue?

As for the Duskblade, he's pretty far from my current character concept obviously. And since our party is so damn melee heavy (I'm the only one not in the frontline), I don't see the point in being one...

But there's something just incredibly cool about the idea of channeling arcane powers through your blade and dealing out death that way. Not to mention that spell like Jump or Swift Expeditious Retreat allows you pull off all those Jedi tricks :P - while wearing armor! The character damn near sounds like something out of a comic book more then a fantasy novel (which I guess must annoy some, but I'm a comic book fan :P).

But much of the same question come to mind... how viable is the character class? How do they compare to similar level melee class when it come to ass-kickery? What about Prestige Class? For some reason I'd imagine Duskblade face a 'lose-lose' situation - either they pick a melee PrC and lose out on their spell abilities, or they pick a Caster PrC and lose out on their melee abilities...
DarkRhystar
12-29-07, 12:57 PM Duskblade - One trick pony. It may have some magic, but it's no spellcaster. Treat it like you would a Fighter. Early on it's pretty strong but it gets weaker as time passes. 13th level is the pinnacle level and the point at which point you should probably be looking into multiclassing away if you haven't already.

Beguiler - This is a Mage replacement for the Rogue. Notice that it gets 6 skillpoints per level and has Search/Disable Device on the skill list as well as Trapfinding. It's a great party face too. The spell list won't make it a major player in combat damage-wise, but it's very good at what it does. You also have every spell on it so you have plenty of options. Add in UMD and you have direct damage and other types of spells via wands. Also remember that the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration line of spells is Illusion and can be gained through Advanced Learning...

Good classes. I'd rate the Beguiler above the Duskblade though.
tyrandor
12-29-07, 01:37 PM 13 level seems a like good long way to go >_>

I keep hearing that Wizard is one of the most powerful class in the game, yet most people say it's only a 5 level class (5 wiz/10PrC/5Archmage seems to be the vogue).

Are they better way to go about making a Fighter/Mage type then?

What PrC work with both Beguiler/Duskblade?
DarkRhystar
12-29-07, 02:27 PM 13 level seems a like good long way to go >_>

It is, but Arcane Channeling (Full Attack) is the last really good ability the class gets.

I keep hearing that Wizard is one of the most powerful class in the game, yet most people say it's only a 5 level class (5 wiz/10PrC/5Archmage seems to be the vogue).

It's definitely one of the top classes. The reason the Wizard is a 5 level class though is that by then you usually can get into a Prestige Class and the Wizard lacks any meaningful class features of its own to encourage taking 20 levels of it.

Are they better way to go about making a Fighter/Mage type then?

Not really. They lose out on too many really good spells to replace the more conventional Fighter/Mage builds.

What PrC work with both Beguiler/Duskblade?

That depends on what you want to do with the character. If you're looking to have someone help you build one to show you what it can do, allow me to suggest the CharOps board.
Cold Napalm
12-29-07, 02:49 PM You want a gish?

Standard gish stub for wizard.

Fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 1/AC 5/EK 7

However, I personally like

Fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 5/AC 5/unseen seer 3.

You get spell channel out of this which blows arcane strike out the window(especially if you use defenestring shere) since you can channel ANY spell you know to affect JUST the creature struck (think solid fog based spells or AMF or shapechange the fighter for basic funness). You can wear a good chunk of armor with 20% ASF reduction (mithril full plate + thistledown for one).
Salla
12-29-07, 07:57 PM Beguiler is probably the best class to mix with Wizard for Ultimate Magus, as you only need to worry about your Intelligence instead of Intelligence and Charisma.
kuonji
12-30-07, 02:21 AM One of my players played a beguiler in my last campaign. I think your observations are pretty good; you certainly can play a regular old wizard along the lines of a beguiler and do just fine. The class doesn't really bring much that's new to the table, but it does at least bring something a little different.

In the group, the beguiler was the only arcane spellcaster, so they didn't have much in the way of heavy firepower, but the utility of illusions, buffs, debuffs, and (thanks to spontaneous casting) nearly unlimited dispel magic made for a quite effective character.

I'm not terribly interested in having them be a regularly available class in my games, but it was nice to see something different.
Varia
12-31-07, 11:25 AM Beguilers make a superb cohort for the right group. Excellent buffing/utility spells, and trapmonkey or trapmonkeys assistant skills as needed. I loved my beguiler cohort and want to have his babies, so-to-speak. :) Haste every fight, and displacement as needed were worth the price of admission alone.
Belkar
12-31-07, 12:15 PM I'm playing a beguiler right now. Started at lvl 1, currently at 13. I love it.

The group was missing both an arcane caster and a rogue. Made sense. You're not as good a caster as a wizard, nor as good a trapmonkey as a rogue, but you're better than a multiclassed wizard/rogue by a long shot.

If you like illusion/enchantment (which I do...) I daresay the beguiler is the best choice for you... The biggest advantage to casting (which I like) is the huge spell list, which you constantly know. It may only be illus/ench with a dash of utility, but you can pick and choose at wil. Can a wiz or sorc say the same? No.

As far as the rogue-ish skills go... you're sub-par to the rogue himself - but have better skills than any other caster. Wearing light armor is nice, too.

The biggest advice (and pratfall) of the class I can mention: Don't get suckered into getting into melee. The feinting abilities are so tempting - but there are just too many other ways (much safer ways) to deny your enemy his Dex to AC. Improved Initiative is an under-realized boon. Go first. Everyone is flat-footed if the go after you. :D But avoid melee at all costs. A d6 is better than a d4, but you're still squishy.

Also, I agree, max out UMD. It's nice to toss an evocation or heal from a wand or scroll. UMD is one of the best skills in the game... be glad you're a character who has it.
Cartigan
12-31-07, 12:30 PM There is also the Distract Assailant spell you can learn at 3rd level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tyrandor 12-29-07, 12:45 PM	... are they actually viable class? We just got the PHB2, and to be honest, reading the Beguiler's intro more or less felt like they were talking about my current Wizard character. He lies and cheat frequently and use his magic to make it look good. In battle he uses his magic to enfeeble the enemy and change the battleground to his allies' advantage (typical level 1 spell line up is: Sleep, Ray of Enfeeblement and Grease) so that they can do the slashing and dicing. I see him as a trickster, a con-man and a battleground controller. Problem is... the Beguiler's ability look a bit gimmicky. Sure, you can wear light Armor and you got slightly more Hit Points - but to me, that doesn't make getting in close combat in order to get a Feint off seems really appealing. Not to mention that it comes at the cost of limited spell selection and slower spell acquisition - doesn't seem worth the trade off. Especially since our party already has a Rogue in it. I can play my Wizard like a Beguiler regardless... but is the Beguiler actually a viable class through out? Does his power scale well with those of other class? How about prestige class? Or is he just a gimmick, made to sucker in people who couldn't figure out if they wanted a wizard or a rogue? As for the Duskblade, he's pretty far from my current character concept obviously. And since our party is so damn melee heavy (I'm the only one not in the frontline), I don't see the point in being one... But there's something just incredibly cool about the idea of channeling arcane powers through your blade and dealing out death that way. Not to mention that spell like Jump or Swift Expeditious Retreat allows you pull off all those Jedi tricks :P - while wearing armor! The character damn near sounds like something out of a comic book more then a fantasy novel (which I guess must annoy some, but I'm a comic book fan :P). But much of the same question come to mind... how viable is the character class? How do they compare to similar level melee class when it come to ass-kickery? What about Prestige Class? For some reason I'd imagine Duskblade face a 'lose-lose' situation - either they pick a melee PrC and lose out on their spell abilities, or they pick a Caster PrC and lose out on their melee abilities...
DarkRhystar 12-29-07, 12:57 PM	Duskblade - One trick pony. It may have some magic, but it's no spellcaster. Treat it like you would a Fighter. Early on it's pretty strong but it gets weaker as time passes. 13th level is the pinnacle level and the point at which point you should probably be looking into multiclassing away if you haven't already. Beguiler - This is a Mage replacement for the Rogue. Notice that it gets 6 skillpoints per level and has Search/Disable Device on the skill list as well as Trapfinding. It's a great party face too. The spell list won't make it a major player in combat damage-wise, but it's very good at what it does. You also have every spell on it so you have plenty of options. Add in UMD and you have direct damage and other types of spells via wands. Also remember that the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration line of spells is Illusion and can be gained through Advanced Learning... Good classes. I'd rate the Beguiler above the Duskblade though.
tyrandor 12-29-07, 01:37 PM	13 level seems a like good long way to go >_> I keep hearing that Wizard is one of the most powerful class in the game, yet most people say it's only a 5 level class (5 wiz/10PrC/5Archmage seems to be the vogue). Are they better way to go about making a Fighter/Mage type then? What PrC work with both Beguiler/Duskblade?
DarkRhystar 12-29-07, 02:27 PM	13 level seems a like good long way to go >_> It is, but Arcane Channeling (Full Attack) is the last really good ability the class gets. I keep hearing that Wizard is one of the most powerful class in the game, yet most people say it's only a 5 level class (5 wiz/10PrC/5Archmage seems to be the vogue). It's definitely one of the top classes. The reason the Wizard is a 5 level class though is that by then you usually can get into a Prestige Class and the Wizard lacks any meaningful class features of its own to encourage taking 20 levels of it. Are they better way to go about making a Fighter/Mage type then? Not really. They lose out on too many really good spells to replace the more conventional Fighter/Mage builds. What PrC work with both Beguiler/Duskblade? That depends on what you want to do with the character. If you're looking to have someone help you build one to show you what it can do, allow me to suggest the CharOps board.
Cold Napalm 12-29-07, 02:49 PM	You want a gish? Standard gish stub for wizard. Fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 1/AC 5/EK 7 However, I personally like Fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 5/AC 5/unseen seer 3. You get spell channel out of this which blows arcane strike out the window(especially if you use defenestring shere) since you can channel ANY spell you know to affect JUST the creature struck (think solid fog based spells or AMF or shapechange the fighter for basic funness). You can wear a good chunk of armor with 20% ASF reduction (mithril full plate + thistledown for one).
Salla 12-29-07, 07:57 PM	Beguiler is probably the best class to mix with Wizard for Ultimate Magus, as you only need to worry about your Intelligence instead of Intelligence and Charisma.
kuonji 12-30-07, 02:21 AM	One of my players played a beguiler in my last campaign. I think your observations are pretty good; you certainly can play a regular old wizard along the lines of a beguiler and do just fine. The class doesn't really bring much that's new to the table, but it does at least bring something a little different. In the group, the beguiler was the only arcane spellcaster, so they didn't have much in the way of heavy firepower, but the utility of illusions, buffs, debuffs, and (thanks to spontaneous casting) nearly unlimited dispel magic made for a quite effective character. I'm not terribly interested in having them be a regularly available class in my games, but it was nice to see something different.
Varia 12-31-07, 11:25 AM	Beguilers make a superb cohort for the right group. Excellent buffing/utility spells, and trapmonkey or trapmonkeys assistant skills as needed. I loved my beguiler cohort and want to have his babies, so-to-speak. :) Haste every fight, and displacement as needed were worth the price of admission alone.
Belkar 12-31-07, 12:15 PM	I'm playing a beguiler right now. Started at lvl 1, currently at 13. I love it. The group was missing both an arcane caster and a rogue. Made sense. You're not as good a caster as a wizard, nor as good a trapmonkey as a rogue, but you're better than a multiclassed wizard/rogue by a long shot. If you like illusion/enchantment (which I do...) I daresay the beguiler is the best choice for you... The biggest advantage to casting (which I like) is the huge spell list, which you constantly know. It may only be illus/ench with a dash of utility, but you can pick and choose at wil. Can a wiz or sorc say the same? No. As far as the rogue-ish skills go... you're sub-par to the rogue himself - but have better skills than any other caster. Wearing light armor is nice, too. The biggest advice (and pratfall) of the class I can mention: Don't get suckered into getting into melee. The feinting abilities are so tempting - but there are just too many other ways (much safer ways) to deny your enemy his Dex to AC. Improved Initiative is an under-realized boon. Go first. Everyone is flat-footed if the go after you. :D But avoid melee at all costs. A d6 is better than a d4, but you're still squishy. Also, I agree, max out UMD. It's nice to toss an evocation or heal from a wand or scroll. UMD is one of the best skills in the game... be glad you're a character who has it.
Cartigan 12-31-07, 12:30 PM	There is also the Distract Assailant spell you can learn at 3rd level.