Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Serrin 01-16-06, 07:03 PM	Okay, so I'll start at the beginning. There's basically a core of four people, myself included, who play D&D as a group. There's me, my girlfriend, my best friend in college, and another girl. We have a few other players who come and go based on what our schedules allow and how many people the DM wants. We've all DMed for a bit. My campaign was often poorly prepared, and when it was well prepared, it was too serious, RP-intensive and had too much critical thinking for most players. Some people just want to kill kobolds. My girlfriend tried a couple campaigns, including World's Largest Dungeon, and a new Slayers-based one. WLD was a bit repetitive for us, and we've only had one session of the new one. I hope it turns out well. The other girl had a campaign for a while that was okay, but it fizzled and I'm really not sure why. The person who DMs the most since I ran my campaign to teach everyone to play, however, is my best friend. Unfortunately, this is where the troubles begin. My idea of a good campaign and his are very different. First of all, he likes bigger games, with around 7 players. Personally, I don't like playing with more than 4, or 5 if everyone's awesome. I like my games to be on the serious side. I guess I'm a bit of a narrativist, to use fancy pretentious terms. He, and the players he brings in to bulk up the group, see it as more of a social event, and suggested I do the same. I don't even like social events. Our first game of his latest campaign went something as follows: We're in a caraven. We get dropped into a huge pit trap. Goblins capture everyone but us. We slaughter our way through the caverns. Scenario over. Final tally: 32 or so dead goblins, 3 dead orcs, 1 NPC who was placed as a heal vending machine and gave out 3 CLWs before he died of mummy rot. After the first two rooms, I just wrote on my character sheet "Charge nearest enemy. Take even share of loot. AC 22 after soulmelds", and handed it to my girlfriend, who proceeded to play me the rest of the session as I lay down on a chair away from the loud, obnoxious, off-topic players. If I had written down "stay with group" and "run towards nearest enemy if out of charge distance", my character could've been played without any player initiative at all. I suggested that I simply retire from the campaign, but the DM is resistant to this. I think our playstyles are too different, and rather than try to change things for everyone to accomodate me, it'd result in more enjoyment for more people if I simply left, allowing them to play in the way that they please, and save myself the headaches of dealing with it. On the other hand, it seems he's taking this a little personally, even though I told him it wasn't. Are there any other options? Edit: I think I got sidetracked. Let me iterate the reasons I'm not enjoying the campaign: players and DM not taking it very seriously, some players don't pay attention, missing things the first four times the DM tells them. Players spend more effort making lame jokes than playing. Then again, they seem to be amused enough. Lack of either roleplaying or combat that requires thought. Lack of preparation (the last game started two hours late. I felt bad because I had to make a character. That took 15 minutes. I had to wait around another 1.75 hours after that for the game to begin), lack of DM rule knowledge (had to explain 5 foot steps don't draw AoOs if you don't move more after that, and also that running does draw AoOs). And for the love of d20, "I want to cast magic missile at the darkness" is only funny so many times.
Karada 01-16-06, 07:32 PM	Rule number one of D&D is to have fun. You are not but everyone else is. So i would suggest not playing. Problem solved.
DrakeAnaya 01-16-06, 07:41 PM	Karada, what you say about "rule #1" is true, but as the girlfriend mentioned, I have to add: We enjoy D&D too much to simply "not play", and the fact that we are not social people greatly hinders our ability to find other people to play with instead. Trust me, this group took a long time to scrounge up as it is. The social aspect of the game is important to me, and I enjoy it. Hell, I also enjoy humor in the games I play. The bulk of the issue here is that the DM is one of those people who seems to live on the "please as many people as possible at the sacrifice of few" mentality. We play with a group of 7 players because we're all his friends (if not mutually amongst ourselves) and he doesn't want to exclude anyone. So, when Serrin and/or myself voluntarily exclude ourselves, he starts feeling bad about it, and seems at a loss of what to do. I like his campaigns, for the most part. He makes some pretty interesting settings and random encounters, unique NPCs, and so on. It just seems sometimes like nobody else is fully appreciating it, because they're not paying attention. I personally would resolve this problem by having two separate playgroups: 1) our four "core" members + one of the "fringers", 'cause he's awesome, and 2) the social players, which may well be everyone but Serrin and myself. Apparently and unfortunately, the DM doesn't see this as an option. Of course, it also sucks for Serrin and myself because it means there are nights when we don't get to play, either, and I know that it can be a pain in the ass to run one campaign at a time, let alone two. If "not playing" were an option, we'd have done it by now.
WhylniaPendragon 01-16-06, 08:30 PM	I'm not sure I have an answer to your problem, but can definitely sympathize. Our gaming group, right now, consists of myself, my husband, our best friend/roomate, and another friend who is quite infrequent. My husband and I aren't very social, either, and it's extremely difficult to find people to game with. I've had an "ad" for a DM up in the classifieds for almost a month and just got the first reply to it the other day. Our friend whom we game with infrequently is more of a hack 'N' slasher than we are. My husband and I are much more into the RPing aspect, but we love a good fight, especially if it's well thought out and satisfying. Just killing random things just because their there isn't as much fun as it sounds, usually. Our roomate is The Storyteller. He comes more from the background of VTM than D&D. So together we have one guy saying "Can we get on with it, I wanna kill something, already." and my husband and I thinking, "if we could just RP our character's a littl, perhaps we'd understand them better and be able to play them more effectively." and our Roomie, who is by far, much more social than we are, trying to be a go between, I guess you'd say. Back to your problem,( sorry to ramble, I tend to do that.) I think that unless you friend/DM changes something, that it might be best that you both try running a campaign between both of you. Maybe then you could get something you both are obviously needing from the game. I don't know your friend, but I feel that by not taking your feelings into consideration, he's doing a major disservice to both of you and the game he's running. IMHO, if a DM doesn't listen to all of his/her players, then they are neglecting an integral part of what a DM is. I know some people think when they are starting out as a DM, "oh goody, I get to play God and tell people what to do. This is going to rock!" In my personal experience, and I've not been DMing too long, it's fun for me and rewarding, when I know all my players are happy and things are going smoothly, and I'm not having to refer to the books too often for what I'm unsure about. Also, in my game, we sit down and since we've all been busy, we end up spending a while just shooting the breeze before playing and hopefully after that we are into our characters and not being all silly or giggly. Maybe, if your friend would announce ahead of time, "ok, we have alot tocover this game session. We can chat after the game or get it out of our system, now." If yor friend is unwilling to take control of his game, then the only advice I know to give is to perhaps split yourself off from the group. Maybe ask that other player you said was awesome to make a character in a Campaign you three could play in? Like I said before, sorry this is not more helpful. It's probably something you've already thought of. I hope it helps. Apart from that, I can only say how much I can commiserate. Good luck with whatever decision you both finally come to.
Dag 01-17-06, 05:04 AM	Silliness does tend to crop up when you get people together, even for D&D, so some of that will have to be tolerated, but as the last person said the DM might want to give them time before the game starts to get it out of their system or to mention it when it starts getting out of hand and rein those people in, but only if it gets out of hand - people are going to crack silly comments on the fly regardless, and if he gets too severe with stopping it then the fun will be soaked away from the other players. Hopefully a middle ground can be reached or you may have to find more mature players... The main reason I responded however was about your attitude. Enough with the snobbery you bring to the table, were I DM and I had you lying down on a chair because we were not playing at a level equal to your standards I'd be pretty ticked off, and if I took a read at your character sheet I'd be even more insulted. It seems that being there and playing is important to you since you dont seem to want to stop, yet you insist on displaying your arrogance to the others by laying down in a manner that says 'your silliness and inferior style of play bores me, but I'll keep coming even if it's just to lie here in a way that insults all of you especially my friend the DM.' It's pathetic that attitude, if you dont like the style of game then change it by your force of character. Obviously one with your intelligence and roleplaying superiority can make a character with such presence that he changes the style of the game. Think outside the box and convince the group that the party does not need to Charge nearest enemy. Take even share of loot... every time. If things are getting redundant or boring then have the sense to let your convictions guide you to act in a way that will improve the game and will keep you involved rather than slighting your DM and other players with your rather childish antics. I do see this as a problem mind you. I doubt I would enjoy the game as you describe it and I think you should try to work something out with your DM or with your fellow players to maybe make things a little more serious and to consider other options in and out of game - That is maybe not the best advice but I think it is more posative and constructive than flopping down and snubbing the game as you have been doing. I know that as a DM nothing annoys me more than when a player is off lying down while I am running a session. It ticks me off knowing I put work and time into a game and some jerk is snoozing or blowing me off; those types of people dont stay in my game long because I dont tolerate it, yet your DM seems to be trying very hard to reach out to interest you and is very adamant about wanting you in the game. I think it's very poorly done on your part to treat him the way you have been, grow up and quit the game or adapt to it, but show a little more class and respect to your friends and your DM.
DrakeAnaya 01-17-06, 09:22 AM	The issue with this group is that the silliness/off-topic chatter is distracting and disruptive to the entire game, where attempting anything beyond "Charge nearest enemy. Take even share of loot..." is difficult. Example: The party has just cleared out most of a cavernous dungeon thing. We enter a room near the back of it. Inside the room is an Orc with Feathery Things on His Head. We get both a surprise round and a regular attack round, and we beat the orc up pretty badly. When it gets to his turn, he starts crying and asks us not to kill him. My (LN) character decides to talk to him to gather some information, and I decide we're going to bring him back with us, alive, so that he can meet some proper justice after being interrogated more thoroughly. We won't even need ropes or shackles to accomplish this task, as 6 of our 7 party members have crossbows and similar things and he's not likely to try anything given the situation. Someone shouts "I shoot him again!!!", having not paid attention to a single word I had just exchanged with the DM. Major plot points, decent IC RPing, fffffpt out the window because he wasn't paying attention. This kind of thing is neither cute nor appreciated, but it happens on a regular basis. I've told the DM that he needs to make the group smaller or try a *lot* harder to make people pay attention. We've told him this, and he has yet to bring in any significant change. but he'll guilt-trip us and come over uninvited to play with us. I know the attitude we give him is poor, but we've tried everything in our power to tell him what we think needs to be fixed, and he hasn't successfully altered anything. I can't see us as being totally unjustified. Of course, that's why we're asking here for input... and for the record, I'm the only one who saw his character sheet, but even after making it very apparent that he didn't have any ranged attacks, the other players kept moving themselves in ways that made it impossible for him to attack anything effectively (like standing in front of him so he couldn't charge). I even made myself very clear about this problem, but nothing changed. And then they complained when they got hurt too much. :confused:
Serrin 01-17-06, 02:32 PM	I think you're reading a bit far into it. First of all, I wasn't removing myself from the table because things weren't "up to my standards". There's no right or wrong way to play. I just wasn't having fun. That doesn't mean I think they were doing anything wrong. It's their game even more than mine. Secondly, I don't want to stop playing D&D. I'm perfectly willing to quit this campaign. The day after, the DM asked what was up, and I told him straight up that the scenario was rather repetitive, I felt like my character was just another warm body to throw at the goblins rather than an important part of the group, and the players were more interested in socializing to the point that combat rounds took upwards of ten minutes and things had to be repeated four or more times. I'm sure they enjoyed it very much, but that's really not my cup of tea. I hold no animosity towards them. I suggested that I seemed to be the only one not having fun with the game (Anaya seems to be of the mind that the problems are with the players, not the game. I won't claim to speak for her, though), and that the logical course of action was for me to resign, but the DM tried to talk me into continuing to play. I wish you had been the DM. Then you could've gotten angry at me and overreacted, asked me to leave, and I would've made myself scarce, and the problem would be over and done with. I don't claim to have vast intelligence or roleplaying superiority. Many of the other players can roleplay quite well, when they want to. In another campaign, the other girl we game with roleplayed my character getting her homosexual bard addicted to drugs, hitting on the warmage, working her way towards becoming a distinguished musician, and subsequently kicking her addiction. It was good stuff. The DM and I have a bit of a history. Basically, his last campaign was every bit as unenjoyable, and we've talked for hours and hours on how to improve the game, both for me, and for the rest of the players. What it boils down to, I feel, is that the DM can't manage 7-8 players, and half the players can't manage themselves. Solitaire/Minesweeper at the table, looking up the rules for setting a spear vs a charge when you're supposed to be taking your turn, not listening, splitting off from the party preparing to enter the dungeon in order to...steal an alligator head from the mayor of a small hamlet. I still don't understand that one. The more I write, the more I realize that it's mostly the players I should be taking issue with. The last game was simply a linear room-by-room slaughter, but everyone has their bad games. The DM usually writes pretty cool stuff. Had it been a different group, we could've been done with it in half an hour and gone on to RP or something. Like I said, I've talked with the DM on how to make things better. I love discussing D&D even more than playing, probably. The conversation usually ends up with us concluding that half the players are too inattentive, the DM is too nice a guy to cut anyone, he says he'll talk with them, their behavior doesn't change, we conclude that he can't manage 8 players. Conversation ends there because the only solution is to change DMs or cut people, and most people won't accept either. I could also talk with the players, but if they don't listen to the DM, I doubt they'll listen to me, and I'll just be provoking hostility since they'll think (not altogether unjustifiably) that I'm trying to tell them how to play. Summary: With our easily distracted players, a full frontal assault is about the most complex plan we can execute. Roleplaying usually consists of one or two interested people getting information from NPCs as everyone chats OOC. Nobody's willing to cooperate, and as a result, nobody even really tries any longer. I do not enjoy this kind of game. Most of the players seem to do. The DM really, really wants to keep me in his game, but I wish to resign. The DM cannot make the game fun for me without making it boring for most of the other players. I really don't see a way in which everyone can be happy. The options I see are keep playing, so everyone is happy except for me, who's miserable. Quit, and then everyone is happy except for the DM. Cajole the DM into making the campaign awesome for me, which makes the other players bored and unhappy, which then makes the DM unhappy. Honestly, I'd like to quit. Edit: Anaya, by "he comes over uninvited to play", are you referring to the DM, or our least favorite player? I'm a little confused to be honest.
Minauros 01-17-06, 03:35 PM	I don't feel it's fair for you to ask everyone else to accomodate your playing style if they aren't going to have fun with it, and if you cannot bend enough to enjoy the game the way they play it, your only choice is to go no matter the protests of you friend. Otherwise, you are only making yourself miserable (obviously) which is really detrimental to everyone else's experience too. Just tell your friend that you love him and it's not about him, and invite him out to a movie with you and your girlfriend. If he's really your friend, and I have seen nothing to suggest he isn't, you guys will get past this in no time. Then go find some other folks who do play the kind of game you enjoy.
The Phantom Flan Flinger 01-17-06, 05:53 PM	Sound like this group is bringing out the high-maintenance player in you. I'm all for constructive criticism but the way you say you're treating your DM both in and between sessions must be incredibly demoralising for him. First piece of advice, give the guy a break. Despite everything you say, I don't get the feeling that you want to leave the group. And the long and short of it is, since everyone else is having a great time apart from you (and since they're not doing it maliciously), if you want to stick around it's you who needs to compromise - unless you want to spend every session in self-imposed isolation. Treat this as an evening out with a little bonus D&D and get your RP fix elsewhere, be it in solo campaigns DM'd by your other half, online D&D, maybe even give NWN a try if any of their pure-RP servers are still around. Try to put a new group together. The passage of time may help - in a couple of years, many of the people who are currently loving the hack'n'slash might decide they want something more serious too, and you'll be glad then that you didn't tell them to get stuffed. Or the group might be down to the DM and four players through natural wastage. A nice compromise might be to treat the game sessions as simply an episode in your PC's life rather than the whole thing. Outside the game, you and your other half take it in turns to DM for each other, using other PC's and NPC's, locations and un-followed plot hooks from the main game. That way you get a fleshed-out character who spends most of his time following his own goals but every now and then finds himself agreeing to go dungeon-crawling with his old mates from the tavern near where he grew up. You might even be able to talk your DM into running a between-sessions campaignette like this for the pair of you (it will take up no more of his time than listening to you complain about his game must take up!). There would be no XP or loot, of course, but I don't think you're in it for that.
deltadave 01-17-06, 06:42 PM	If you aren't having fun, it may be time to take up the reins as DM again. then run a game you would like to play in. Incompatible play styles is the most common reason that players/DM's leave one group and go to or found another.
Bruunwald 01-18-06, 03:45 PM	If "not playing" were an option, we'd have done it by now. Nobody understands how hard it is to simply not play than myself, so I totally sympathize with what you're saying. But to add my buck-and-a-quarter, and this is real life experience talking, now: Giving up this game now, as hard as it is, is much preferable to lingering in a situation that is likely to continue frustrating its participants until it explodes, damaging relationships possibly forever. Your DM buddy seems at least vaguely aware that his party game style is a bummer for you guys. Even if he is bummed by your non-participation, at least explaining it gently is something he can get over, in time. Waiting until you have to flay the skin from his bones out of sheer pent-up frustration is really the thing that should be "not an option."
DrakeAnaya 01-18-06, 05:40 PM	Bruunwald, We've talked to him directly. We've even given him a written essay on what we think needs work. Might seem pretty ballsy to do such a thing, but we only did it after we'd already spoken about it (and that was before the most serious of problems came up, too). :/ I do agree with you 100%, though. I'm looking into starting a game of Paranoia. It's better suited to the group dynamic, I think, and Serrin can have fun killing off the players he doesn't like. :D Still, I'm hoping we can find some way to keep playing D&D as well... the flavor is significantly different. Thanks to everyone for their input so far, I'm hoping we can still get some more insight into this matter.
Serrin 01-18-06, 05:46 PM	Player*
DrakeAnaya 01-18-06, 06:52 PM	Player* yes, yes, you can have fun killing the player you don't like. :rolleyes: :P
akaroads 01-18-06, 11:12 PM	Here's two cents, let your gaming flow as it will, or should I say "Go with the flow". Given time everything changes and so will those that play. If you are truly a friend than you should encourage him. Sacrifice is a mature quality, and I'm sure he will see that you care for his needs and maybe he will also care for yours. This may sound somewhat mushy, but it's true!
Dag 01-19-06, 03:56 AM	We've even given him a written essay on what we think needs work. Why don't you just tell him? Seems a bit more personal that way and can be done more sensatively, though sensativity to how your friend might be upset by all of this doesn't seem to be of any concern to you. So you go with the written essay? I always appreciate them from my friends when we're having problems, or from my players when they have a problem with how I am DMing. Sorry but it just seems like you two have handled this thing terribly all the way through, and you don't seem to get the fact that alot of the things you are doing are insensative and disrespectful and might hurt your friend's feelings. Just quit the campaign already instead of delivering this guy insult followed by disappointment followed by written essays telling him how badly he is handling his campaign. I can appreciate the problem you are having with the group, but I sympathize with your DM because you two (his so called friends, or his best friend if I read correctly the initial post) are really making him suffer for the fact that you prefer a different D&D style than he runs. This goes beyond D&D issues and is about common decency toward one's friend - you two come across so arrogant, so judgemental and so dismissing toward any concept of a thing that is not your own. That written essay, though it might have been written with good intentions (and it probably was) is condescending and rude in my opinion. I advise that your work on the friendship thing then worry about the D&D issues which seem to have become more important to you.
Andrew_980 01-19-06, 04:47 AM	Your DM is a tool. I have delt with this before and it sucks. If the DM is a pushover that has no controlof the game, you cannot save it. Your freinds are not interested in playing D+D. they want to hang out and sorta play, the way many of us pop in a DVD and start talking insted of listening to plot. Many of you are giving this guy greif because *gasp* he wants role playing in D+D :eek: Ignore them dude, i bet half of them ARE the disruptive players. you two come across so arrogant, so judgemental and so dismissing toward any concept of a thing that is not your own. That written essay, though it might have been written with good intentions (and it probably was) is condescending and rude in my opinion You come across the same, just from a differant side. You think that it is fine for them to spend a half hour laughing at the word member and yell out actions from the fridge. He doesn't. He has the right to enjoy the game, just as they do. They really seem to have an issue, but telling him to act juvenile to fit in or be called arogant by you is, well, arogant and rude. He tried talking to the dm. The guy takes no control over his group, they are about as organized as a tub of drunk cats, so why should the roleplayer feel guilty about wanting more depth than kill, loot wheres the snacks, repeat. He tried talking, the dm is not convinced but says ok, nothing changes so the guy writes it out plainly, hell i know i would appreciate that much input from my players. My suggestion is take over and put your foot down, I know i am thinking about doing that to my second group because my DM sounds too much like yours. Hell, do it your way and the players will stay and the problems are likely to leave.
Dag 01-19-06, 05:21 AM	You come across the same, just from a differant side. You think that it is fine for them to spend a half hour laughing at the word member and yell out actions from the fridge. He doesn't. He has the right to enjoy the game, just as they do. They really seem to have an issue, but telling him to act juvenile to fit in or be called arogant by you is, well, arogant and rude. He tried talking to the dm. The guy takes no control over his group, they are about as organized as a tub of drunk cats, so why should the roleplayer feel guilty about wanting more depth than kill, loot wheres the snacks, repeat. He tried talking, the dm is not convinced but says ok, nothing changes so the guy writes it out plainly, hell i know i would appreciate that much input from my players. I don't know if I am being arrogant and rude, if so that's fine, but I am being arrogant and rude with a complete stranger not with my best friend as is the case with this fellow. I am certainly being judgemental and critical with these people, but I think they wanted judgemental or they would not have posted their problem here. I never said he should act juvenile, in fact, if you read my posts you have seen that I think he does have a problem on his hands with this playing style as I stated thusly: the DM might want to give them time before the game starts to get it out of their system or to mention it when it starts getting out of hand and rein those people in, but only if it gets out of hand - people are going to crack silly comments on the fly regardless, and if he gets too severe with stopping it then the fun will be soaked away from the other players. Hopefully a middle ground can be reached or you may have to find more mature players... I mainly took issue with the way he has been treating his friend concerning this problem, which in the long run is a very petty matter when compared to a good friendship. Many of you are giving this guy greif because *gasp* he wants role playing in D+D. I can not stress enough times that I am not giving this fellow any grief based on his desire for less adolescent behavior from his gaming group. I would have serious problems with such a group myself but would certainly handle it in a more classy manner. I have said repeatedly that I take issue with the way he disrespects his DM who happens to also be his best friend. Ignore them dude, i bet half of them ARE the disruptive players. I know I am giving these people some grief on this matter but I don't think I come across as juvenile as this comment would suggest.
Templetroll 01-19-06, 12:29 PM	From what I've read here the OP has spoken to the DM on several occasions to try and resolve it. The essay was not rude, it was an attempt to get the DM to pay attention to the points after the conversation ended. THe OP has gotten the DM to agree that some more control of the group was needed, but the DM has not done so. Why? because the DM cannot or will not do it. That is, imnsho, why the DM wants the OP to be in the game - to provide what the DM does not want to do - get structure in the group, have an adult voice to push the game beyond "I attack the darkness!". The DM will say anything to keep the OP in the game, and it will all be lies. Don't walk back into that game. Let the DM know you will not be attending and that he already knows why from previous conversations and the essay. If the DM can trim the group, and that is essential, then you will try it again. IF the DM says he cannot trim the group then you have done your part to help him by not showing up again.
Bruunwald 01-19-06, 01:10 PM	...they are about as organized as a tub of drunk cats... LOL! For some reason, that strikes me as a particularly funny image. Okay, sorry... back to business... I think we shouldn't be so hard on the DM. Obviously, these two players like the guy. He seems like a pushover, but DMing can be hard. Some people try too hard to please everybody. They can't help it. But trying to please people or trying to be social, are a really minor offenses in the Grand Scheme of Things, and D&D is just a game, after all (though I admit I take it seriously, too). I still think the players ought to bow out gracefully, as hard as it is, just to keep things from becoming estranged. And that's really the point here, I think. This is their friend, and they ought to protect that first.
Templetroll 01-19-06, 07:51 PM	LOL! For some reason, that strikes me as a particularly funny image. Okay, sorry... back to business... I think we shouldn't be so hard on the DM. Obviously, these two players like the guy. He seems like a pushover, but DMing can be hard. Some people try too hard to please everybody. They can't help it. But trying to please people or trying to be social, are a really minor offenses in the Grand Scheme of Things, and D&D is just a game, after all (though I admit I take it seriously, too). I still think the players ought to bow out gracefully, as hard as it is, just to keep things from becoming estranged. And that's really the point here, I think. This is their friend, and they ought to protect that first. The OP has tried to do that and the DM convinces him by agreeing there need to be changes and then never makes the changes. THe OP needs to not be there; he needs to have his stated action to not show up start by not showing up. He can be very polite and friendly but my advice would be to not attend a game session until after he knows changes have occurred. When they don't occur he will know he should be seeking entertainment elsewhere. Heck, show the DM this thread and at least he'll realize what a treasure the OP is. ;)