über skills = FUN! [Archive] - Wizards Community

über skills = FUN! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
robot flux
02-18-04, 07:02 AM Have you ever done a character that has some skill ridicilously high? I'm now playing a sorceress with:

lvl 5 (or was it 6?)
CHA 18
skill focus: Bluff
Familiar: Tiny Viper (+3 to bluff)
As many ranks as possible in Bluff
Choker of Eloquence (Greater, +10 to Bluff)
Skill synergy: +2 Bluff

and maybe some other stuff. The final score is +32 (!). That means I could literally say that I'm a fish and some commoners would believe that. Of course they get all the potential DC bonuses, but still. The DM checked from one of his Pantheon books and noticed that I could lie to a demi-god and they could actually believe my lie.

But anyways, I really like my character. I enjoy playing her. She is so arrogant and kinda honky.

Back to the Q, you've ever done anything like this?
VirgilCaine
02-18-04, 07:47 AM There's no way you should have the choker. You're level five.
jokotoko
02-18-04, 08:16 AM Yep..sure did...once played a bard with a pretty big charisma (even though he never got further than 8th level). I pretty much focussed on all social interaction skills (bluff, sense motive, gather information and so on) In the end I had at least a +20 to all these skills and even more (I believe +28) to my perform check. I stopped playing the character since my DM couldn't handle this....I literally got all the stuff I wanted for free (including all kinds of magical stuff) My party members were annoyed since, in combination with the bard skills most encounters with humanoids ended without a a single blow....our fighter got mad and I decided to bring in a diviner instead...still play him now...He's cool as well...we have now reached level 12 and his knowledge modifiers are pretty high as well...it's always nice to know the secret password to some dungeon or whatever...!
robot flux
02-18-04, 08:49 AM There's no way you should have the choker. You're level five.

Well that's true, but what I did was I bought the choker and gave it to one of the grandwizards at a wizard school. They enchanted it. I was going to take the craft wondrous item -feat, but I dont think I'll take it afterall.
robot flux
02-18-04, 08:58 AM In addition, you're absolutely right jokotoko.
Here's a clip from the adventures:

The PC and her friend wanted to enter this build in order to meet the king.

Guard: No no, you're not going in, the king's busy.
Sorc: Well ahum, you know, you HAVE to let us in, we're from the...umm...RFII (roughly translated: Recently Founded Inner Investigation) and we're checking this castle now (Followed by a bluff check: 12+32=44)
Guard: Right....well then, let *name* escort you around (the "butler")

Now how easy it that? Bluffing is FUN FUN FUN!!!
Myrridin
02-18-04, 09:13 AM It's amazing how that can be curbed by requring role-playing, instead of just rolling the dice and determining the result. Roll the dice to determin how likely they are to listen to you, and react towards you, and then actually force the role-player to come up with something.
mythandra
02-18-04, 11:00 AM Originally posted by Myrridin
It's amazing how that can be curbed by requring role-playing, instead of just rolling the dice and determining the result. Roll the dice to determin how likely they are to listen to you, and react towards you, and then actually force the role-player to come up with something.

I am not my character. As a result, I (player) have a different level of social skill than my character. In real life, I do not have a charisma of 18. In real life I do not have 7 ranks in bluff and diplomacy at level 4. In real life, i am different person. I have no problem roleplaying (indeed, I would PREFER to role play social interaction), but at the end, a roll should be required to determine outcome

If a player puts points into something other than the key 5, it should be obvious that they're trying to produce a well rounded PERSON who is 3 DIMENSIONAL. Why would you want to use positive reinforcement to discourage such behavior?

When they put points into non-combat/non-key-5, nothing happens. When they put points into combat/key-5 skills, they get higher rolls and beat the baddies more often. THAT is, pure and simple, positive reinforcement.

Another way to look at it is that the DM who participates in the aforementioned "bad behavior" is directly contributing to the creation of a munchkin power gamer.

That's not something I'd want on my resume...
Goreg Skullcrusher
02-18-04, 11:25 AM I made a core 3.5 Halfling Ranger/Horizon Walker with this:

Hide
+4 size
+6 Dex (18 + 2 racial + 2 bonus at lvl 8)
+1 Dex enhancement (gloves)
+3 Skill Focus(Hide)
+2 Sneaky feat
+10 Shadowed armor
+11 ranks
+4 Horizon walker terrain mastery

+41 Hide. At lvl 8. Core. (If you can somehow grab the shadowed armor early enough, you can have about +37 or so at lvl 6 :) )

So, who wants to snipe? :D
VirgilCaine
02-18-04, 01:08 PM Well that's true, but what I did was I bought the choker and gave it to one of the grandwizards at a wizard school. They enchanted it. I was going to take the craft wondrous item -feat, but I dont think I'll take it afterall.

An Improved Ring of Climbing that grants +10 to Climb checks is 10,000 GP Market Price. A 5th level character has 9000GP total equipment. So, no you wouldn't be able to afford it, at least IMC.

As for you "charming" your way into this grandwizards heart, no wizard makes things "for his friends" unless the friend knows he owes a favor to the wizard now...
Gedrin
02-18-04, 05:03 PM Here's the thing...

Could you use Bluff to convince the jeweler that you're just borrowing the necklace for the ball and will bring it back?
Sure.

Could you convince the same jeweler to give you the necklace even though loosing it will cost him 5,000 gp?
No. He's not putting himself out of business just because you're nice.

A really good solution to these sorts of things can be found relating to the Leadership feat. It appears that you can take permanent penalties to your Leadership score for mistreating your followers or getting them killed. I imagine that someone known to be a total mooch in spite of the fact they're wealthy would produce a similar reputation penalty. Also, if you're continually borrowing things and not bringing them back, the town guard will eventually come looking for you on charges of theft. I imagine that suspected thieves get at least a -10 on attempts to persuade guards positively, and that's just for starters.
Ranthanas
02-18-04, 08:22 PM Originally posted by robot flux
Have you ever done a character that has some skill ridicilously high? I'm now playing a sorceress with:

lvl 5 (or was it 6?)
CHA 18
skill focus: Bluff
Familiar: Tiny Viper (+3 to bluff)
As many ranks as possible in Bluff
Choker of Eloquence (Greater, +10 to Bluff)
Skill synergy: +2 Bluff

and maybe some other stuff. The final score is +32 (!).

You haven't even started.

Core Bard. Level 8
Cha 19
11 ranks in Bluff
Persuasive (Feat: +2)
[No synergies add to bluff in core]
Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to all Cha based skills)
Glibness (3rd level bard spell: +30 to bluff- and it's core!)

+50 (!)

11 ranks in Diplomacy
Negotiator (Feat: +2)
Synergies from Bluff, Sense Motive and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty: +6)
Circlet of Persuasion

+26

11 Ranks in Disguise
Synergy from Bluff
Circlet of Persuasion
Alter Self

+28

All on the same character. And people wonder why I think that bards are slightly overpowered. (His hide score was only in the twenties, but he had invisibility on top of that- and sculpt sound to deal with moving silently)
VirgilCaine
02-18-04, 09:05 PM A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell.

This is from the Bluff skill description in the 3.5 SRD. So, what did he make the "grandwizard" believe? Why would he need such a magic item, when he obviously is able to

I wouldn't allow a "grandwizard" to be defrauded this easily.

I would apply the +5 "some risk" or perhaps the +10 "significant risk" Sense Motive modifiers, in light of the fact that this Grandwizard is going to take ten days working hard to make this item, and spend 5,000 GP in materials (hardly ever an insignificant cost, except to very high level characters) and spend XP to make it.
BlaineTog
02-18-04, 09:15 PM Originally posted by Ranthanas
You haven't even started.

Core Bard. Level 8
Cha 19
11 ranks in Bluff
Persuasive (Feat: +2)
[No synergies add to bluff in core]
Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to all Cha based skills)
Glibness (3rd level bard spell: +30 to bluff- and it's core!)

+50 (!):devil:

*Slightly* Non-Core Bard. Level 13
Cha 26 (put another +1 into it at 12th level, Cloak of Cha +6)
16 ranks in Bluff
Persuasive (Feat: +2)
Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to all Cha based skills)
Glibness (+30)
Improvisation (+26. This is from Song and Silence)

Total" + 85. Averaging in at 95.5.
VirgilCaine
02-18-04, 09:20 PM Um, aren't you forgetting Skill Focus and Greater Skill Focus?
Beamup
02-18-04, 09:24 PM Really high Bluff can be REALLY fun when it's on somebody other than a PC... say, a BBEG who cons PCs into doing his dirty work for him...
Blackswordsman
02-18-04, 11:15 PM we had pc in our group like this who though bluff would let him triple/quadruple his gold with single checks.

Sure the npc you just bluffed thinks the item is great and really wants to make it/ buy it fromyou. But people still have common sence.

I mean when i go to buy tires from wal-mart, and the guy says "blah blah blah, these tires a better then those ones but they will come to $XXX dollars."

And i say i don't know that much, they pretty much screwd his bluff didn't it? I mean sure i really like those tires, but i just can't afford em.

Sure i really think you are part of the FFII (or what ever the name was) but i still think the king is busy, and when he told us loser guards to not be interrupted, well sorry pal your not getting in. The buttler will go check first.
Ranthanas
02-19-04, 06:45 AM Originally posted by Blackswordsman
we had pc in our group like this who though bluff would let him triple/quadruple his gold with single checks.

Sure the npc you just bluffed thinks the item is great and really wants to make it/ buy it fromyou. But people still have common sence.

I mean when i go to buy tires from wal-mart, and the guy says "blah blah blah, these tires a better then those ones but they will come to $XXX dollars."

And i say i don't know that much, they pretty much screwd his bluff didn't it? I mean sure i really like those tires, but i just can't afford em.[/b]

Firstly, you don't haggle in wall-mart. I can quite believe it happening in magic item shops.

Secondly, you are making an unbelievable bluff. In D&D this gives the person sensing motive either a +10 or a +20- which is good enough to stop almost any real world bluff. We are dealing with characters here with bluff scores in excess of +30- and from the Dificulty Class examples table (3-21) in the (3.0) DMG, DC 43 is "Track a goblin that passed over hard rocks a week ago, and it snowed yesterday"- something much harder than swindling a shopkeeper even out of the shirt on his back.

Thirdly, unless the wall mart has a "find something cheaper and we'll match it" offer, they are just going to say "Get it there, then". The bluff is wrong (a better one would be to accuse the shopkeeper of selling damaged goods so they give a refund, and people get away with that in the RW a lot- even when they haven't bought anything).

Fourthly, the problem is quite simply the plain stupid levels you can reach in bluff rather than the uses to which the skill will be put. There are mechanics for increasing the dificulty for bluffs that are hard to believe- +10 DC for a bluff that is hard to believe and +20 for a bluff that is almost too incredible to consider. This is cold comfort for NPCs facing PCs with bluff scores in excess of +30 anyway. To get the unfortunate NPC to commit suicide on the grounds that it is safe (e.g. by jumping in acid) is listed in the Epic Level Handbook as +50 to DC. A pretty dificult task to overcome, you might think. Blainetog's bard has a +85 modifier- he could almost certainly get the king (or the BBEG) to jump off the battlements of his castle and not cast Featherfall on the way down.

Yes, this is very hard to do RW- but we have modifiers in play that shouldn't appear until epic levels. It can be done in the real world (although it is incredibly hard) and relies on magic (glibness, improvisation etc.) no less than fireballs do in D&D. Are you calling them unrealistic??

Sure i really think you are part of the FFII (or what ever the name was) but i still think the king is busy, and when he told us loser guards to not be interrupted, well sorry pal your not getting in. The buttler will go check first.

So you bluff again. "There's no point and no time. Let me in now or I'll have you strung up and thrown in the oubliette". DC: +10 for a hard to believe bluff, but it is not an impossible one (except with a very soft king- and he would be unlikely to have such gate guards). We have skill modifiers here that can eat that without any trouble.
robot flux
02-19-04, 06:57 AM Yes, I have noticed the DC modifiers for NPC's. the last one with +20 (?) had something like:

"The halfkoblin form was transformed by an evil sorceress. Y'know, I'm really a lammasu and you know lammasus are reliable. So go ahead, you can trust me."

And this had like +20 only. Now with +32 in Bluff, not so easy to beat... unless they have extreme high sense motive and all that.

PS. I forgot to mention that the sorceress has all bluff feats possible. Still need

Street wise...and some other, I guess...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
robot flux 02-18-04, 07:02 AM	Have you ever done a character that has some skill ridicilously high? I'm now playing a sorceress with: lvl 5 (or was it 6?) CHA 18 skill focus: Bluff Familiar: Tiny Viper (+3 to bluff) As many ranks as possible in Bluff Choker of Eloquence (Greater, +10 to Bluff) Skill synergy: +2 Bluff and maybe some other stuff. The final score is +32 (!). That means I could literally say that I'm a fish and some commoners would believe that. Of course they get all the potential DC bonuses, but still. The DM checked from one of his Pantheon books and noticed that I could lie to a demi-god and they could actually believe my lie. But anyways, I really like my character. I enjoy playing her. She is so arrogant and kinda honky. Back to the Q, you've ever done anything like this?
VirgilCaine 02-18-04, 07:47 AM	There's no way you should have the choker. You're level five.
jokotoko 02-18-04, 08:16 AM	Yep..sure did...once played a bard with a pretty big charisma (even though he never got further than 8th level). I pretty much focussed on all social interaction skills (bluff, sense motive, gather information and so on) In the end I had at least a +20 to all these skills and even more (I believe +28) to my perform check. I stopped playing the character since my DM couldn't handle this....I literally got all the stuff I wanted for free (including all kinds of magical stuff) My party members were annoyed since, in combination with the bard skills most encounters with humanoids ended without a a single blow....our fighter got mad and I decided to bring in a diviner instead...still play him now...He's cool as well...we have now reached level 12 and his knowledge modifiers are pretty high as well...it's always nice to know the secret password to some dungeon or whatever...!
robot flux 02-18-04, 08:49 AM	There's no way you should have the choker. You're level five. Well that's true, but what I did was I bought the choker and gave it to one of the grandwizards at a wizard school. They enchanted it. I was going to take the craft wondrous item -feat, but I dont think I'll take it afterall.
robot flux 02-18-04, 08:58 AM	In addition, you're absolutely right jokotoko. Here's a clip from the adventures: The PC and her friend wanted to enter this build in order to meet the king. Guard: No no, you're not going in, the king's busy. Sorc: Well ahum, you know, you HAVE to let us in, we're from the...umm...RFII (roughly translated: Recently Founded Inner Investigation) and we're checking this castle now (Followed by a bluff check: 12+32=44) Guard: Right....well then, let name escort you around (the "butler") Now how easy it that? Bluffing is FUN FUN FUN!!!
Myrridin 02-18-04, 09:13 AM	It's amazing how that can be curbed by requring role-playing, instead of just rolling the dice and determining the result. Roll the dice to determin how likely they are to listen to you, and react towards you, and then actually force the role-player to come up with something.
mythandra 02-18-04, 11:00 AM	Originally posted by Myrridin It's amazing how that can be curbed by requring role-playing, instead of just rolling the dice and determining the result. Roll the dice to determin how likely they are to listen to you, and react towards you, and then actually force the role-player to come up with something. I am not my character. As a result, I (player) have a different level of social skill than my character. In real life, I do not have a charisma of 18. In real life I do not have 7 ranks in bluff and diplomacy at level 4. In real life, i am different person. I have no problem roleplaying (indeed, I would PREFER to role play social interaction), but at the end, a roll should be required to determine outcome If a player puts points into something other than the key 5, it should be obvious that they're trying to produce a well rounded PERSON who is 3 DIMENSIONAL. Why would you want to use positive reinforcement to discourage such behavior? When they put points into non-combat/non-key-5, nothing happens. When they put points into combat/key-5 skills, they get higher rolls and beat the baddies more often. THAT is, pure and simple, positive reinforcement. Another way to look at it is that the DM who participates in the aforementioned "bad behavior" is directly contributing to the creation of a munchkin power gamer. That's not something I'd want on my resume...
Goreg Skullcrusher 02-18-04, 11:25 AM	I made a core 3.5 Halfling Ranger/Horizon Walker with this: Hide +4 size +6 Dex (18 + 2 racial + 2 bonus at lvl 8) +1 Dex enhancement (gloves) +3 Skill Focus(Hide) +2 Sneaky feat +10 Shadowed armor +11 ranks +4 Horizon walker terrain mastery +41 Hide. At lvl 8. Core. (If you can somehow grab the shadowed armor early enough, you can have about +37 or so at lvl 6 :) ) So, who wants to snipe? :D
VirgilCaine 02-18-04, 01:08 PM	Well that's true, but what I did was I bought the choker and gave it to one of the grandwizards at a wizard school. They enchanted it. I was going to take the craft wondrous item -feat, but I dont think I'll take it afterall. An Improved Ring of Climbing that grants +10 to Climb checks is 10,000 GP Market Price. A 5th level character has 9000GP total equipment. So, no you wouldn't be able to afford it, at least IMC. As for you "charming" your way into this grandwizards heart, no wizard makes things "for his friends" unless the friend knows he owes a favor to the wizard now...
Gedrin 02-18-04, 05:03 PM	Here's the thing... Could you use Bluff to convince the jeweler that you're just borrowing the necklace for the ball and will bring it back? Sure. Could you convince the same jeweler to give you the necklace even though loosing it will cost him 5,000 gp? No. He's not putting himself out of business just because you're nice. A really good solution to these sorts of things can be found relating to the Leadership feat. It appears that you can take permanent penalties to your Leadership score for mistreating your followers or getting them killed. I imagine that someone known to be a total mooch in spite of the fact they're wealthy would produce a similar reputation penalty. Also, if you're continually borrowing things and not bringing them back, the town guard will eventually come looking for you on charges of theft. I imagine that suspected thieves get at least a -10 on attempts to persuade guards positively, and that's just for starters.
Ranthanas 02-18-04, 08:22 PM	Originally posted by robot flux Have you ever done a character that has some skill ridicilously high? I'm now playing a sorceress with: lvl 5 (or was it 6?) CHA 18 skill focus: Bluff Familiar: Tiny Viper (+3 to bluff) As many ranks as possible in Bluff Choker of Eloquence (Greater, +10 to Bluff) Skill synergy: +2 Bluff and maybe some other stuff. The final score is +32 (!). You haven't even started. Core Bard. Level 8 Cha 19 11 ranks in Bluff Persuasive (Feat: +2) [No synergies add to bluff in core] Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to all Cha based skills) Glibness (3rd level bard spell: +30 to bluff- and it's core!) +50 (!) 11 ranks in Diplomacy Negotiator (Feat: +2) Synergies from Bluff, Sense Motive and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty: +6) Circlet of Persuasion +26 11 Ranks in Disguise Synergy from Bluff Circlet of Persuasion Alter Self +28 All on the same character. And people wonder why I think that bards are slightly overpowered. (His hide score was only in the twenties, but he had invisibility on top of that- and sculpt sound to deal with moving silently)
VirgilCaine 02-18-04, 09:05 PM	A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell. This is from the Bluff skill description in the 3.5 SRD. So, what did he make the "grandwizard" believe? Why would he need such a magic item, when he obviously is able to I wouldn't allow a "grandwizard" to be defrauded this easily. I would apply the +5 "some risk" or perhaps the +10 "significant risk" Sense Motive modifiers, in light of the fact that this Grandwizard is going to take ten days working hard to make this item, and spend 5,000 GP in materials (hardly ever an insignificant cost, except to very high level characters) and spend XP to make it.
BlaineTog 02-18-04, 09:15 PM	Originally posted by Ranthanas You haven't even started. Core Bard. Level 8 Cha 19 11 ranks in Bluff Persuasive (Feat: +2) [No synergies add to bluff in core] Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to all Cha based skills) Glibness (3rd level bard spell: +30 to bluff- and it's core!) +50 (!):devil: Slightly Non-Core Bard. Level 13 Cha 26 (put another +1 into it at 12th level, Cloak of Cha +6) 16 ranks in Bluff Persuasive (Feat: +2) Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to all Cha based skills) Glibness (+30) Improvisation (+26. This is from Song and Silence) Total" + 85. Averaging in at 95.5.
VirgilCaine 02-18-04, 09:20 PM	Um, aren't you forgetting Skill Focus and Greater Skill Focus?
Beamup 02-18-04, 09:24 PM	Really high Bluff can be REALLY fun when it's on somebody other than a PC... say, a BBEG who cons PCs into doing his dirty work for him...
Blackswordsman 02-18-04, 11:15 PM	we had pc in our group like this who though bluff would let him triple/quadruple his gold with single checks. Sure the npc you just bluffed thinks the item is great and really wants to make it/ buy it fromyou. But people still have common sence. I mean when i go to buy tires from wal-mart, and the guy says "blah blah blah, these tires a better then those ones but they will come to $XXX dollars." And i say i don't know that much, they pretty much screwd his bluff didn't it? I mean sure i really like those tires, but i just can't afford em. Sure i really think you are part of the FFII (or what ever the name was) but i still think the king is busy, and when he told us loser guards to not be interrupted, well sorry pal your not getting in. The buttler will go check first.
Ranthanas 02-19-04, 06:45 AM	Originally posted by Blackswordsman we had pc in our group like this who though bluff would let him triple/quadruple his gold with single checks. Sure the npc you just bluffed thinks the item is great and really wants to make it/ buy it fromyou. But people still have common sence. I mean when i go to buy tires from wal-mart, and the guy says "blah blah blah, these tires a better then those ones but they will come to $XXX dollars." And i say i don't know that much, they pretty much screwd his bluff didn't it? I mean sure i really like those tires, but i just can't afford em.[/b] Firstly, you don't haggle in wall-mart. I can quite believe it happening in magic item shops. Secondly, you are making an unbelievable bluff. In D&D this gives the person sensing motive either a +10 or a +20- which is good enough to stop almost any real world bluff. We are dealing with characters here with bluff scores in excess of +30- and from the Dificulty Class examples table (3-21) in the (3.0) DMG, DC 43 is "Track a goblin that passed over hard rocks a week ago, and it snowed yesterday"- something much harder than swindling a shopkeeper even out of the shirt on his back. Thirdly, unless the wall mart has a "find something cheaper and we'll match it" offer, they are just going to say "Get it there, then". The bluff is wrong (a better one would be to accuse the shopkeeper of selling damaged goods so they give a refund, and people get away with that in the RW a lot- even when they haven't bought anything). Fourthly, the problem is quite simply the plain stupid levels you can reach in bluff rather than the uses to which the skill will be put. There are mechanics for increasing the dificulty for bluffs that are hard to believe- +10 DC for a bluff that is hard to believe and +20 for a bluff that is almost too incredible to consider. This is cold comfort for NPCs facing PCs with bluff scores in excess of +30 anyway. To get the unfortunate NPC to commit suicide on the grounds that it is safe (e.g. by jumping in acid) is listed in the Epic Level Handbook as +50 to DC. A pretty dificult task to overcome, you might think. Blainetog's bard has a +85 modifier- he could almost certainly get the king (or the BBEG) to jump off the battlements of his castle and not cast Featherfall on the way down. Yes, this is very hard to do RW- but we have modifiers in play that shouldn't appear until epic levels. It can be done in the real world (although it is incredibly hard) and relies on magic (glibness, improvisation etc.) no less than fireballs do in D&D. Are you calling them unrealistic?? Sure i really think you are part of the FFII (or what ever the name was) but i still think the king is busy, and when he told us loser guards to not be interrupted, well sorry pal your not getting in. The buttler will go check first. So you bluff again. "There's no point and no time. Let me in now or I'll have you strung up and thrown in the oubliette". DC: +10 for a hard to believe bluff, but it is not an impossible one (except with a very soft king- and he would be unlikely to have such gate guards). We have skill modifiers here that can eat that without any trouble.
robot flux 02-19-04, 06:57 AM	Yes, I have noticed the DC modifiers for NPC's. the last one with +20 (?) had something like: "The halfkoblin form was transformed by an evil sorceress. Y'know, I'm really a lammasu and you know lammasus are reliable. So go ahead, you can trust me." And this had like +20 only. Now with +32 in Bluff, not so easy to beat... unless they have extreme high sense motive and all that. PS. I forgot to mention that the sorceress has all bluff feats possible. Still need Street wise...and some other, I guess...