Best LA+0 race in the game? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best LA+0 race in the game? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rillek_Denar
04-07-07, 05:32 PM Start with Warforged (optionally, Warforged Scout).
La+0, +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha.

Add the Phrenic Template
LA+2, +Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha.

Add the Incarnate Construct Template
LA-2, No stat adjustments.

At the end of this you have:
Incarnate Phrenic Warforged
Medium Humanoid (Psionic)
LA+0, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha.

You've lost all the special qualities of both Warforged and Phrenic, although you do retain the Phrenic Psi-like abilities.

This is a race with no level adjustment, a compliment of Psi-like abilities that become more powerful as you do, and a +2 to three stats. For a wizard or sorcerer, this is a pretty optimal choice. A +2 to your spellcasting stat, and a +2 to Con for extra hardiness. Also, the lack of any penalties makes it particularly attractive if you rolled low stats, or are playing with a low point buy.

Using a scout yields a similar result, but with the addition of a -2 Str and +2 Dex.

For a more combat-oriented version:

Start with any LA+0 race.

Add the Dustform Template
LA+2, +4 Str, -2 Dex. Also, +5 natural armor, and a natural slam attack.

Add the Incarnate Construct Template
LA-2, No stat changes. Reduce natural armor to +3 (if base creature was medium).

At the end of this you have: Incarnate Dustform X
Medium Humanoid (possible subtype)
LA+0, +4 Str, -2 Dex, (+ base creature's adjustment). And you still have +3 natural armor and a slam attack.

Using a Half-Orc as the base creature:

Incarnate Dustform Half-Orc
Medium Humanoid (Orc?)
LA+0, +6 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha.
+3 natural armor and a slam attack.

Whaddya think?
Prator_the_Legendary
04-07-07, 06:09 PM I think I'm wondering if adding templates doesn't somehow add to the LA. It really doesn't?

If not, congratulations, you've discovered one of those twinks which can help you win D&D. You've also given me a fair warning about something which I would forbid any of my players to use.
Evil DM Mk3
04-07-07, 06:12 PM One could argue that you cannot make a living construct alive in the way you can make a golem alive, thus making incarnte warforged impossible. (ie the DM get out clause for this twinkarama)
Soluphobe
04-07-07, 06:30 PM Where's Incarnate Construct from?

I harbor a suspicion that the kobold's LA is, in fact, -2 (and goblin is -1). Just look at the CRs! Yes, I know CR=/=LA, but based on same stats and class:

Elf (LA+0): 1/2
Dwarf (LA +0): 1/2
Goblin: 1/3
Kobold: 1/4

If I am correct, then a half-vampire kobold with Charming Gaze (or whatever it's called) is pretty impressive.
Rillek_Denar
04-07-07, 06:40 PM I think I'm wondering if adding templates doesn't somehow add to the LA. It really doesn't?

Well, Dustform and Phrenic both have +2 Level Adjustments, but they are balanced out by Incarnate Construct's -2 LA.

If not, congratulations, you've discovered one of those twinks which can help you win D&D. You've also given me a fair warning about something which I would forbid any of my players to use.

I don't know about forbidding it. Granted, either variant is powerful, but there are certainly far more efficient ways to break a game (if that is your goal; it is not mine).

One could argue that you cannot make a living construct alive in the way you can make a golem alive, thus making incarnte warforged impossible. (ie the DM get out clause for this twinkarama)

Obviously, it is a DM's prerogative to use house rulings to keep his game balance intact, but based just on the RAW (always a bad justification, I know) Warforged have the Construct type and so they are a viable target. For a more flavor-based justification, using Incarnate Construct converts a construct's metal or stone into flesh and bone. Since a Warforged is made of metal... you get the idea.

And of course, that still leaves the Dustform idea viable, since dustforms are most definitely pure constructs.

Where's Incarnate Construct from?

Savage Species, Pg 120
kelvinaw273
04-07-07, 11:50 PM Incarnate Construct applies a -2 LA because it removes some of a construct's features, some of which a Warforged does not have (for example, warforged use character class hit dice, not d10s which this template reduces to d8s), so is clearly not applicable to them. I don't know about dustform, but I suspect if it is only LA+2 (and presumably no hit dice) the same might well apply. It's clearly one of those "DM must rule" areas that a sane DM will immediately rule against you, even though by RAW it is technically correct.

If you want to talk REAL LA+0 races without cheating on templates, then it depends what class you want.

Kalashtar are IMHO the best LA+0 race for psionic characters of any description. Sun or Grey elves make for excelent wizards, dwarves and half orcs do good as fighting classes, shifters are excelent rangers and druids, etc. It's really a case of selecting horses for courses ....
KillerGM
04-07-07, 11:59 PM Humans.

:D
Kitaki
04-08-07, 12:06 AM Half-Golem
Majick
04-08-07, 03:02 AM Seriously, almost anything from savage species don't quite work for 3.5
Rillek_Denar
04-08-07, 06:49 AM Incarnate Construct applies a -2 LA because it removes some of a construct's features, some of which a Warforged does not have (for example, warforged use character class hit dice, not d10s which this template reduces to d8s), so is clearly not applicable to them. I don't know about dustform, but I suspect if it is only LA+2 (and presumably no hit dice) the same might well apply. It's clearly one of those "DM must rule" areas that a sane DM will immediately rule against you, even though by RAW it is technically correct.

But you're forgetting that Incarnate Construct also removes all special attacks and special qualities. If that weren't the case, I'd agree that it's not applicable. But it's no small thing to lose your special qualities.
MagicMouth
04-08-07, 07:25 AM The Whisper Gnome´s official LA is +0, making it a superior choice for any Rogue.

I harbor a suspicion that the kobold's LA is, in fact, -2 (and goblin is -1). Just look at the CRs! Yes, I know CR=/=LA, but based on same stats and class:

Elf (LA+0): 1/2
Dwarf (LA +0): 1/2
Goblin: 1/3
Kobold: 1/4

If I am correct, then a half-vampire kobold with Charming Gaze (or whatever it's called) is pretty impressive.
Actually, Goblins and Kobolds are pretty damn good.

Goblins make great Rogues thanks to their size, bonus to Move Silently, Darkvision, and 30 feet movement despite their size.
Kobolds make good spellcasters thanks to their higher Dexterity, size bonus and natural armor, giving them a higher chance of survival. They also have 30 feet movement.
danielinthewolvesden
04-08-07, 01:34 PM The Whisper Gnome´s official LA is +0,

Where's that race?
KillerGM
04-08-07, 02:02 PM Where's that race?

Races of Stone.
AZNsupermarket
04-08-07, 02:26 PM Without going into negative level adjustment or weird templates that never mention level adjustments, here is my broken races breakdown:

First Tier (most broken): Venerable Dragonwrought kobold/Anthropomorphic Animals/Lesser Planetouched of races that usually have an LA over +1)

Second Tier (2nd most broken): Lesser Aasimar/tieflings

Third Tier (3rd most broken): Lesser Genasi of races that usually are an LA +1, Dragonborn Pseudo-template with the correct race

Questionable Balance: Whisper Gnome, Strongheart Halfling, Dragonborns in general, and Snow Elves.
Karish
04-08-07, 02:31 PM Kobolds might be LA +0, -1, or -2, whatever, but they still win.
kelvinaw273
04-08-07, 04:10 PM But you're forgetting that Incarnate Construct also removes all special attacks and special qualities. If that weren't the case, I'd agree that it's not applicable. But it's no small thing to lose your special qualities.

Then rework the finalised result from the guidelines in SS, and you will get a +1 LA for unbalanced scores to say the least. The problem is that warforged special abilities aren't worth a 2 LA gain, so they aren't worth a 2 LA loss either. If I was asked for this as a DM I would probably award it a +1 LA, which is not unreasonable.
Rillek_Denar
04-08-07, 04:43 PM Then rework the finalised result from the guidelines in SS, and you will get a +1 LA for unbalanced scores to say the least. The problem is that warforged special abilities aren't worth a 2 LA gain, so they aren't worth a 2 LA loss either. If I was asked for this as a DM I would probably award it a +1 LA, which is not unreasonable.

To be fair, if one of my players brought this to me, I'd have a tough time picking between +1 and +2. Adding Incarnate Construct to the Phrenic Warforged drops their power resistance (which has more value if you play with magic/psionics transparency, a power point reserve of one (no loss at all), and the living construct traits (so you now have all the options of any other humanoid). If it was just the unbalanced stats, a +1 would be fair. But the second template also doesn't take away the psi-like abilities. You get almost the whole benefit of Phrenic with no LA; most competent DMs will see the unfairness of this.
Reyemile
04-09-07, 12:42 AM Without going into negative level adjustment or weird templates that never mention level adjustments, here is my broken races breakdown:

First Tier (most broken): Venerable Dragonwrought kobold/Anthropomorphic Animals/Lesser Planetouched of races that usually have an LA over +1)

Second Tier (2nd most broken): Lesser Aasimar/tieflings

Third Tier (3rd most broken): Lesser Genasi of races that usually are an LA +1, Dragonborn Pseudo-template with the correct race

Questionable Balance: Whisper Gnome, Strongheart Halfling, Dragonborns in general, and Snow Elves.Also on the "Questionable Balance" level are several of the elemental races from UA; Water Halflings get a swim speed and +2 con, and all they give up is -2 to saves versus fire. Likewise, if I had a choice I would pick Water Orcs and Fire Elves over Orcs and Gray Elves every single time.
AZNsupermarket
04-09-07, 07:25 AM Also on the "Questionable Balance" level are several of the elemental races from UA; Water Halflings get a swim speed and +2 con, and all they give up is -2 to saves versus fire.
Wow! I wrote the only complete list of LA +0 races in the ever created (see sig) and I missed that gem! Good catch!
-On a glance, I would probably put them on the second tier, but I woud need more time to look them over.
Likewise, if I had a choice I would pick Water Orcs and Fire Elves over Orcs and Gray Elves every single time.
I don't really see how you could compare water orcs to fire elves and gray elves, but if you want to see a broken version of an orc, check out the dragonborn wood elf. A dragonborn wood elf gains basically everything a half-orc would gain, plus more.
Now, comparing fire elves to gray elves is a pretty even match IMO. What would rather have a penalty to str or cha? Most of the time, it doesn't matter. Now don't get me even started on dragonborn gray elves and dragonborn fire elves. The brokeness of those races make the third tier.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rillek_Denar 04-07-07, 05:32 PM	Start with Warforged (optionally, Warforged Scout). La+0, +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. Add the Phrenic Template LA+2, +Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha. Add the Incarnate Construct Template LA-2, No stat adjustments. At the end of this you have: Incarnate Phrenic Warforged Medium Humanoid (Psionic) LA+0, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha. You've lost all the special qualities of both Warforged and Phrenic, although you do retain the Phrenic Psi-like abilities. This is a race with no level adjustment, a compliment of Psi-like abilities that become more powerful as you do, and a +2 to three stats. For a wizard or sorcerer, this is a pretty optimal choice. A +2 to your spellcasting stat, and a +2 to Con for extra hardiness. Also, the lack of any penalties makes it particularly attractive if you rolled low stats, or are playing with a low point buy. Using a scout yields a similar result, but with the addition of a -2 Str and +2 Dex. For a more combat-oriented version: Start with any LA+0 race. Add the Dustform Template LA+2, +4 Str, -2 Dex. Also, +5 natural armor, and a natural slam attack. Add the Incarnate Construct Template LA-2, No stat changes. Reduce natural armor to +3 (if base creature was medium). At the end of this you have: Incarnate Dustform X Medium Humanoid (possible subtype) LA+0, +4 Str, -2 Dex, (+ base creature's adjustment). And you still have +3 natural armor and a slam attack. Using a Half-Orc as the base creature: Incarnate Dustform Half-Orc Medium Humanoid (Orc?) LA+0, +6 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha. +3 natural armor and a slam attack. Whaddya think?
Prator_the_Legendary 04-07-07, 06:09 PM	I think I'm wondering if adding templates doesn't somehow add to the LA. It really doesn't? If not, congratulations, you've discovered one of those twinks which can help you win D&D. You've also given me a fair warning about something which I would forbid any of my players to use.
Evil DM Mk3 04-07-07, 06:12 PM	One could argue that you cannot make a living construct alive in the way you can make a golem alive, thus making incarnte warforged impossible. (ie the DM get out clause for this twinkarama)
Soluphobe 04-07-07, 06:30 PM	Where's Incarnate Construct from? I harbor a suspicion that the kobold's LA is, in fact, -2 (and goblin is -1). Just look at the CRs! Yes, I know CR=/=LA, but based on same stats and class: Elf (LA+0): 1/2 Dwarf (LA +0): 1/2 Goblin: 1/3 Kobold: 1/4 If I am correct, then a half-vampire kobold with Charming Gaze (or whatever it's called) is pretty impressive.
Rillek_Denar 04-07-07, 06:40 PM	I think I'm wondering if adding templates doesn't somehow add to the LA. It really doesn't? Well, Dustform and Phrenic both have +2 Level Adjustments, but they are balanced out by Incarnate Construct's -2 LA. If not, congratulations, you've discovered one of those twinks which can help you win D&D. You've also given me a fair warning about something which I would forbid any of my players to use. I don't know about forbidding it. Granted, either variant is powerful, but there are certainly far more efficient ways to break a game (if that is your goal; it is not mine). One could argue that you cannot make a living construct alive in the way you can make a golem alive, thus making incarnte warforged impossible. (ie the DM get out clause for this twinkarama) Obviously, it is a DM's prerogative to use house rulings to keep his game balance intact, but based just on the RAW (always a bad justification, I know) Warforged have the Construct type and so they are a viable target. For a more flavor-based justification, using Incarnate Construct converts a construct's metal or stone into flesh and bone. Since a Warforged is made of metal... you get the idea. And of course, that still leaves the Dustform idea viable, since dustforms are most definitely pure constructs. Where's Incarnate Construct from? Savage Species, Pg 120
kelvinaw273 04-07-07, 11:50 PM	Incarnate Construct applies a -2 LA because it removes some of a construct's features, some of which a Warforged does not have (for example, warforged use character class hit dice, not d10s which this template reduces to d8s), so is clearly not applicable to them. I don't know about dustform, but I suspect if it is only LA+2 (and presumably no hit dice) the same might well apply. It's clearly one of those "DM must rule" areas that a sane DM will immediately rule against you, even though by RAW it is technically correct. If you want to talk REAL LA+0 races without cheating on templates, then it depends what class you want. Kalashtar are IMHO the best LA+0 race for psionic characters of any description. Sun or Grey elves make for excelent wizards, dwarves and half orcs do good as fighting classes, shifters are excelent rangers and druids, etc. It's really a case of selecting horses for courses ....
KillerGM 04-07-07, 11:59 PM	Humans. :D
Kitaki 04-08-07, 12:06 AM	Half-Golem
Majick 04-08-07, 03:02 AM	Seriously, almost anything from savage species don't quite work for 3.5
Rillek_Denar 04-08-07, 06:49 AM	Incarnate Construct applies a -2 LA because it removes some of a construct's features, some of which a Warforged does not have (for example, warforged use character class hit dice, not d10s which this template reduces to d8s), so is clearly not applicable to them. I don't know about dustform, but I suspect if it is only LA+2 (and presumably no hit dice) the same might well apply. It's clearly one of those "DM must rule" areas that a sane DM will immediately rule against you, even though by RAW it is technically correct. But you're forgetting that Incarnate Construct also removes all special attacks and special qualities. If that weren't the case, I'd agree that it's not applicable. But it's no small thing to lose your special qualities.
MagicMouth 04-08-07, 07:25 AM	The Whisper Gnome´s official LA is +0, making it a superior choice for any Rogue. I harbor a suspicion that the kobold's LA is, in fact, -2 (and goblin is -1). Just look at the CRs! Yes, I know CR=/=LA, but based on same stats and class: Elf (LA+0): 1/2 Dwarf (LA +0): 1/2 Goblin: 1/3 Kobold: 1/4 If I am correct, then a half-vampire kobold with Charming Gaze (or whatever it's called) is pretty impressive. Actually, Goblins and Kobolds are pretty damn good. Goblins make great Rogues thanks to their size, bonus to Move Silently, Darkvision, and 30 feet movement despite their size. Kobolds make good spellcasters thanks to their higher Dexterity, size bonus and natural armor, giving them a higher chance of survival. They also have 30 feet movement.
danielinthewolvesden 04-08-07, 01:34 PM	The Whisper Gnome´s official LA is +0, Where's that race?
KillerGM 04-08-07, 02:02 PM	Where's that race? Races of Stone.
AZNsupermarket 04-08-07, 02:26 PM	Without going into negative level adjustment or weird templates that never mention level adjustments, here is my broken races breakdown: First Tier (most broken): Venerable Dragonwrought kobold/Anthropomorphic Animals/Lesser Planetouched of races that usually have an LA over +1) Second Tier (2nd most broken): Lesser Aasimar/tieflings Third Tier (3rd most broken): Lesser Genasi of races that usually are an LA +1, Dragonborn Pseudo-template with the correct race Questionable Balance: Whisper Gnome, Strongheart Halfling, Dragonborns in general, and Snow Elves.
Karish 04-08-07, 02:31 PM	Kobolds might be LA +0, -1, or -2, whatever, but they still win.
kelvinaw273 04-08-07, 04:10 PM	But you're forgetting that Incarnate Construct also removes all special attacks and special qualities. If that weren't the case, I'd agree that it's not applicable. But it's no small thing to lose your special qualities. Then rework the finalised result from the guidelines in SS, and you will get a +1 LA for unbalanced scores to say the least. The problem is that warforged special abilities aren't worth a 2 LA gain, so they aren't worth a 2 LA loss either. If I was asked for this as a DM I would probably award it a +1 LA, which is not unreasonable.
Rillek_Denar 04-08-07, 04:43 PM	Then rework the finalised result from the guidelines in SS, and you will get a +1 LA for unbalanced scores to say the least. The problem is that warforged special abilities aren't worth a 2 LA gain, so they aren't worth a 2 LA loss either. If I was asked for this as a DM I would probably award it a +1 LA, which is not unreasonable. To be fair, if one of my players brought this to me, I'd have a tough time picking between +1 and +2. Adding Incarnate Construct to the Phrenic Warforged drops their power resistance (which has more value if you play with magic/psionics transparency, a power point reserve of one (no loss at all), and the living construct traits (so you now have all the options of any other humanoid). If it was just the unbalanced stats, a +1 would be fair. But the second template also doesn't take away the psi-like abilities. You get almost the whole benefit of Phrenic with no LA; most competent DMs will see the unfairness of this.
Reyemile 04-09-07, 12:42 AM	Without going into negative level adjustment or weird templates that never mention level adjustments, here is my broken races breakdown: First Tier (most broken): Venerable Dragonwrought kobold/Anthropomorphic Animals/Lesser Planetouched of races that usually have an LA over +1) Second Tier (2nd most broken): Lesser Aasimar/tieflings Third Tier (3rd most broken): Lesser Genasi of races that usually are an LA +1, Dragonborn Pseudo-template with the correct race Questionable Balance: Whisper Gnome, Strongheart Halfling, Dragonborns in general, and Snow Elves.Also on the "Questionable Balance" level are several of the elemental races from UA; Water Halflings get a swim speed and +2 con, and all they give up is -2 to saves versus fire. Likewise, if I had a choice I would pick Water Orcs and Fire Elves over Orcs and Gray Elves every single time.
AZNsupermarket 04-09-07, 07:25 AM	Also on the "Questionable Balance" level are several of the elemental races from UA; Water Halflings get a swim speed and +2 con, and all they give up is -2 to saves versus fire. Wow! I wrote the only complete list of LA +0 races in the ever created (see sig) and I missed that gem! Good catch! -On a glance, I would probably put them on the second tier, but I woud need more time to look them over. Likewise, if I had a choice I would pick Water Orcs and Fire Elves over Orcs and Gray Elves every single time. I don't really see how you could compare water orcs to fire elves and gray elves, but if you want to see a broken version of an orc, check out the dragonborn wood elf. A dragonborn wood elf gains basically everything a half-orc would gain, plus more. Now, comparing fire elves to gray elves is a pretty even match IMO. What would rather have a penalty to str or cha? Most of the time, it doesn't matter. Now don't get me even started on dragonborn gray elves and dragonborn fire elves. The brokeness of those races make the third tier.