Best Marching order in dark tunnel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Marching order in dark tunnel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ingtar17
02-20-04, 07:13 PM We are in dark goblin tunnels that only fit one person wide (barely). Is it better to lead with your half-elf rogue who can find traps or with half-orc fighter who can fend off anything that comes our way? They seem to be goblin tunnels.

Our party consists of
Human Cleric
Human Fighter
Half Orc Fighter
Half Elf Rogue
Elven Wizard

Any suggestions on marching order?

Ing
Beamup
02-20-04, 07:50 PM Half-Orc Fighter
Half Elf Rogue
Human Cleric
Elven Wizard
Human Fighter

would by my order. In dark tunnels, you can be attacked from any direction at any time - so you need tanks in front and behind. If your DM's being reasonable, you generally don't find traps in inhabited areas since the inhabitants would be too likely to set it off. Not to mention, unless you're actively searching, you won't find any traps anyway. And while you're searching, you're not moving - so you're moving VERY slowly if you're actually trying to find traps while moving.

An excellent strategy, however, if your wizard can cast Darkvision, is to cast it (and possibly Invisibility as well) on the Rogue and have him scout ahead so you know what you're getting into.
Ingtar17
02-20-04, 08:06 PM Hmm.. I was thinking that the cleric should be second so that he can heal the first fighter if he takes damage. What do you think about that?
Beamup
02-20-04, 08:16 PM What if the trailing fighter takes damage? At least as likely in most situations.

Putting the Rogue near the front also puts the guy who almost certainly has the best Spot and Listen skills where he can do some real good with them. Also, it makes it easier for him to slip past the big guy in front if he needs to deal with something specific.
fruits and vegetables
02-20-04, 10:48 PM thief: searching
fighter 1/paladin/barbarian: frontliner
cleric/druid: heal
wizard/sorcerer: nestled and protected
fighter 2/monk/ranger: rear cover

i do not factor bards, sorry.

searching is not as long as you think. searching takes one round for every 10 feet increment. that is only 6 seconds per 10 feet. say a room is 40'x40'. that is 1600 feet. that would only be 16 minutes to search a really large room for traps and what have you (actually probably much shorter but i have not grided this). this is for a large room mind you. typically a dungeon corridor is no more than 10 feet wide. if a corridor is 100 feet long then it would only take 2 minutes to search the corridor (10 feet wide, moving 5 feet per round forward). DM's will trap corridors, beleave it.

i would argue that rogues should be first in formation as their intrinsic role as trapspringer. the new addition has made it so that searching for traps is not the long, laborious exercise that some think it is. the rogue can also make use of their hide and move silently while doing so without holding up the party because they are waiting for him to search. the player of the rogue is not unduely compromising his position this way either. he can of course reposition himself during combat.

EDIT: formation note and math.
cleric is also where he is located in my formation for their proximity to the wizard. not only is the wizard snug and protected but also beside the cleric in the chance that the wizard takes damage.
The Concrete Dragon
02-21-04, 03:23 AM Originally posted by fruits and vegetables
... i do not factor bards, sorry. ...
Your loss really. They are among the more versatile party members, being suited to both mid rank healing duties or rear guard, depending on the status of other characters. In a pinch they can also scout ahead, though they are more vulnerable to traps than a rogue is, obviously.
Beamup
02-21-04, 11:12 AM Originally posted by fruits and vegetables
searching is not as long as you think. searching takes one round for every 10 feet increment.

Try again. It'd be 4-6 rounds for every 5' increment. You can search a 5' by 5' area as a full-round action (see the description of the search skill, and the discussion on page 65 under taking 20 stating that you count walls and ceiling too). Thus the floor of one square is one round. The ceiling (there can be traps there too!) would be another. The walls would be at least another two if the corridors are really cramped, three if they're reasonably sized. So multiply all your searching times by 10 and you're good to go.

At the MOST lenient you could possibly get, a kind DM could ignore the walls/ceiling and it'd only take twice as long as you think.
fruits and vegetables
02-21-04, 12:25 PM okay, say a factor of three.

that is 6 minutes for a 100 feet corridor.

and if math is right for a 40'x40' room (an 8x8, 5 foot grid), 6.4 minutes to search a the room's floor, 6.4 minutes to search the ceiling, and 3.2 minutes to search the walls.

total: 16 minutes.
fruits and vegetables
02-21-04, 12:31 PM the point is the same. rogues role as trapspringer is not an encumberance to the party's exploration. it's a benifit if you ask me. you may be able to discover some secret passages hidden within corridors that you otherwise would have walked by.

P.S.
i did not know my math would come up the same using the process you told me about searching. that was a shock to me when i totalled it.:)
Beamup
02-21-04, 01:05 PM Originally posted by fruits and vegetables
the point is the same. rogues role as trapspringer is not an encumberance to the party's exploration. it's a benifit if you ask me. you may be able to discover some secret passages hidden within corridors that you otherwise would have walked by.

P.S.
i did not know my math would come up the same using the process you told me about searching. that was a shock to me when i totalled it.:)

Note that the square room's walls should be more than 32 5'x5' tiles unless the ceiling is only 5' high. If it's 10' (for simplicity's sake) each "wall" tile consists of 2 5'x5' tiles. Thus the walls would be 64 tiles (4 walls x 8 tiles long x 2 tiles high)

And I would argue that, in many cases, even 6 minutes to travel 100' can be very bad. Often your enemies will be coordinating and preparing for you if you move slowly. In the original poster's case, this is particularly likely. You don't want to give them more time to get set than you have to.
fruits and vegetables
02-21-04, 02:11 PM Originally posted by Beamup
Note that the square room's walls should be more than 32 5'x5' tiles unless the ceiling is only 5' high. If it's 10' (for simplicity's sake) each "wall" tile consists of 2 5'x5' tiles. Thus the walls would be 64 tiles (4 walls x 8 tiles long x 2 tiles high)

oh yeah.

19.2 minutes if walls are 10 feet high.

And I would argue that, in many cases, even 6 minutes to travel 100' can be very bad. Often your enemies will be coordinating and preparing for you if you move slowly. In the original poster's case, this is particularly likely. You don't want to give them more time to get set than you have to.

if the rogue is making use of hiding and moving silently as i said earlier while also at a nice distance (not too far mind you) ahead of the party then it is likely the enemy may not know you are approaching.
Beamup
02-21-04, 02:32 PM Originally posted by fruits and vegetables
if the rogue is making use of hiding and moving silently as i said earlier while also at a nice distance (not too far mind you) ahead of the party then it is likely the enemy may not know you are approaching.

I don't think I'd allow Hide while Searching. You have to be moving all over to examine things to Search, which kinda disallows Hiding.

Also, rogue going ahead to scout is a totally different case - any "marching order" assumes everyone stays together (and note I suggested it in my first post)

Beyond that, as soon as you encounter a few Goblins and don't kill them instantly, at least one is highly likely to run away shrieking. Goodbye surprise.
Agent_Nolan
02-21-04, 03:10 PM Marching Order (5 by X Hallway)
Human Fighter
Half Elf Rogue
Human Cleric
Elven Wizard
Half Orc Fighter

Marching Order (10 by X Hallway)
Human Fighter Half Elf Rogue
Human Cleric Elven Wizard
Half Orc Fighter

Formation (Advantageous Fight)
Fighter Fighter
Cleric Wizard Rogue

Formation (Disadvantageous Fight)
Fighter Fighter
Rogue Cleric Wizard
fruits and vegetables
02-21-04, 03:13 PM before this obviously degenerates into a forseeable tactical arguement thread let us just call a truce.

truce?

besides, we can agree on two things i am sure.

every situation is circumstantial.
the DM ultimately decides if what you do is a good idea or a bad idea.
fruits and vegetables
02-21-04, 03:15 PM Originally posted by Agent_Nolan
Marching Order (5 by X Hallway)
Human Fighter
Half Elf Rogue
Human Cleric
Elven Wizard
Half Orc Fighter

specific there are we not?
Beamup
02-21-04, 03:18 PM Originally posted by fruits and vegetables
before this obviously degenerates into a forseeable tactical arguement thread let us just call a truce.

truce?

besides, we can agree on two things i am sure.

every situation is circumstantial.
the DM ultimately decides if what you do is a good idea or a bad idea.

Sure, we absolutely agree on those two things. I don't, however, see this degenerating into an argument - just a civil discussion of the desirability of different tactics in different situations.

But if you'd prefer to drop the discussion here, that's fine with me.
Ingtar17
02-21-04, 06:29 PM Hey guys.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Ingtar
celloshane
02-21-04, 08:05 PM Heres my question, what kind of light source and whos holding it? I tend to suggest the Half-orc in front b/c darkvision.
Naeron
02-23-04, 05:58 AM One very important think to remember is not to bunch up, leave a couple of 5ft squares in the party so that you can shift positions.

Personally I would put the Rogue about 10ft out front to search for traps and spot hidden enemies. Unless you are of a level to encounter glyph traps searching the floor is generally all that you need to do. What the Rogue is looking for are the Triggers for a trap. A trap that triggers only if you touch the ceiling is harmless as long as no one touches anything the Rogue hasn't looked over.

In travelled tunnels traps will be rare so taking 10 or rolling should be an acceptable trade of accuracy over time taken. But if you are creeping into an entrance to a complex (often trapped), have the time and the enemy are unaware creep down taking 20. Better to spend an hour creeping down a 150ft tunnel than alert the enemy by stumbling into a trap.
fruits and vegetables
02-23-04, 06:22 AM exactly.

we share the same approach.

thank you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ingtar17 02-20-04, 07:13 PM	We are in dark goblin tunnels that only fit one person wide (barely). Is it better to lead with your half-elf rogue who can find traps or with half-orc fighter who can fend off anything that comes our way? They seem to be goblin tunnels. Our party consists of Human Cleric Human Fighter Half Orc Fighter Half Elf Rogue Elven Wizard Any suggestions on marching order? Ing
Beamup 02-20-04, 07:50 PM	Half-Orc Fighter Half Elf Rogue Human Cleric Elven Wizard Human Fighter would by my order. In dark tunnels, you can be attacked from any direction at any time - so you need tanks in front and behind. If your DM's being reasonable, you generally don't find traps in inhabited areas since the inhabitants would be too likely to set it off. Not to mention, unless you're actively searching, you won't find any traps anyway. And while you're searching, you're not moving - so you're moving VERY slowly if you're actually trying to find traps while moving. An excellent strategy, however, if your wizard can cast Darkvision, is to cast it (and possibly Invisibility as well) on the Rogue and have him scout ahead so you know what you're getting into.
Ingtar17 02-20-04, 08:06 PM	Hmm.. I was thinking that the cleric should be second so that he can heal the first fighter if he takes damage. What do you think about that?
Beamup 02-20-04, 08:16 PM	What if the trailing fighter takes damage? At least as likely in most situations. Putting the Rogue near the front also puts the guy who almost certainly has the best Spot and Listen skills where he can do some real good with them. Also, it makes it easier for him to slip past the big guy in front if he needs to deal with something specific.
fruits and vegetables 02-20-04, 10:48 PM	thief: searching fighter 1/paladin/barbarian: frontliner cleric/druid: heal wizard/sorcerer: nestled and protected fighter 2/monk/ranger: rear cover i do not factor bards, sorry. searching is not as long as you think. searching takes one round for every 10 feet increment. that is only 6 seconds per 10 feet. say a room is 40'x40'. that is 1600 feet. that would only be 16 minutes to search a really large room for traps and what have you (actually probably much shorter but i have not grided this). this is for a large room mind you. typically a dungeon corridor is no more than 10 feet wide. if a corridor is 100 feet long then it would only take 2 minutes to search the corridor (10 feet wide, moving 5 feet per round forward). DM's will trap corridors, beleave it. i would argue that rogues should be first in formation as their intrinsic role as trapspringer. the new addition has made it so that searching for traps is not the long, laborious exercise that some think it is. the rogue can also make use of their hide and move silently while doing so without holding up the party because they are waiting for him to search. the player of the rogue is not unduely compromising his position this way either. he can of course reposition himself during combat. EDIT: formation note and math. cleric is also where he is located in my formation for their proximity to the wizard. not only is the wizard snug and protected but also beside the cleric in the chance that the wizard takes damage.
The Concrete Dragon 02-21-04, 03:23 AM	Originally posted by fruits and vegetables ... i do not factor bards, sorry. ... Your loss really. They are among the more versatile party members, being suited to both mid rank healing duties or rear guard, depending on the status of other characters. In a pinch they can also scout ahead, though they are more vulnerable to traps than a rogue is, obviously.
Beamup 02-21-04, 11:12 AM	Originally posted by fruits and vegetables searching is not as long as you think. searching takes one round for every 10 feet increment. Try again. It'd be 4-6 rounds for every 5' increment. You can search a 5' by 5' area as a full-round action (see the description of the search skill, and the discussion on page 65 under taking 20 stating that you count walls and ceiling too). Thus the floor of one square is one round. The ceiling (there can be traps there too!) would be another. The walls would be at least another two if the corridors are really cramped, three if they're reasonably sized. So multiply all your searching times by 10 and you're good to go. At the MOST lenient you could possibly get, a kind DM could ignore the walls/ceiling and it'd only take twice as long as you think.
fruits and vegetables 02-21-04, 12:25 PM	okay, say a factor of three. that is 6 minutes for a 100 feet corridor. and if math is right for a 40'x40' room (an 8x8, 5 foot grid), 6.4 minutes to search a the room's floor, 6.4 minutes to search the ceiling, and 3.2 minutes to search the walls. total: 16 minutes.
fruits and vegetables 02-21-04, 12:31 PM	the point is the same. rogues role as trapspringer is not an encumberance to the party's exploration. it's a benifit if you ask me. you may be able to discover some secret passages hidden within corridors that you otherwise would have walked by. P.S. i did not know my math would come up the same using the process you told me about searching. that was a shock to me when i totalled it.:)
Beamup 02-21-04, 01:05 PM	Originally posted by fruits and vegetables the point is the same. rogues role as trapspringer is not an encumberance to the party's exploration. it's a benifit if you ask me. you may be able to discover some secret passages hidden within corridors that you otherwise would have walked by. P.S. i did not know my math would come up the same using the process you told me about searching. that was a shock to me when i totalled it.:) Note that the square room's walls should be more than 32 5'x5' tiles unless the ceiling is only 5' high. If it's 10' (for simplicity's sake) each "wall" tile consists of 2 5'x5' tiles. Thus the walls would be 64 tiles (4 walls x 8 tiles long x 2 tiles high) And I would argue that, in many cases, even 6 minutes to travel 100' can be very bad. Often your enemies will be coordinating and preparing for you if you move slowly. In the original poster's case, this is particularly likely. You don't want to give them more time to get set than you have to.
fruits and vegetables 02-21-04, 02:11 PM	Originally posted by Beamup Note that the square room's walls should be more than 32 5'x5' tiles unless the ceiling is only 5' high. If it's 10' (for simplicity's sake) each "wall" tile consists of 2 5'x5' tiles. Thus the walls would be 64 tiles (4 walls x 8 tiles long x 2 tiles high) oh yeah. 19.2 minutes if walls are 10 feet high. And I would argue that, in many cases, even 6 minutes to travel 100' can be very bad. Often your enemies will be coordinating and preparing for you if you move slowly. In the original poster's case, this is particularly likely. You don't want to give them more time to get set than you have to. if the rogue is making use of hiding and moving silently as i said earlier while also at a nice distance (not too far mind you) ahead of the party then it is likely the enemy may not know you are approaching.
Beamup 02-21-04, 02:32 PM	Originally posted by fruits and vegetables if the rogue is making use of hiding and moving silently as i said earlier while also at a nice distance (not too far mind you) ahead of the party then it is likely the enemy may not know you are approaching. I don't think I'd allow Hide while Searching. You have to be moving all over to examine things to Search, which kinda disallows Hiding. Also, rogue going ahead to scout is a totally different case - any "marching order" assumes everyone stays together (and note I suggested it in my first post) Beyond that, as soon as you encounter a few Goblins and don't kill them instantly, at least one is highly likely to run away shrieking. Goodbye surprise.
Agent_Nolan 02-21-04, 03:10 PM	Marching Order (5 by X Hallway) Human Fighter Half Elf Rogue Human Cleric Elven Wizard Half Orc Fighter Marching Order (10 by X Hallway) Human Fighter Half Elf Rogue Human Cleric Elven Wizard Half Orc Fighter Formation (Advantageous Fight) Fighter Fighter Cleric Wizard Rogue Formation (Disadvantageous Fight) Fighter Fighter Rogue Cleric Wizard
fruits and vegetables 02-21-04, 03:13 PM	before this obviously degenerates into a forseeable tactical arguement thread let us just call a truce. truce? besides, we can agree on two things i am sure. every situation is circumstantial. the DM ultimately decides if what you do is a good idea or a bad idea.
fruits and vegetables 02-21-04, 03:15 PM	Originally posted by Agent_Nolan Marching Order (5 by X Hallway) Human Fighter Half Elf Rogue Human Cleric Elven Wizard Half Orc Fighter specific there are we not?
Beamup 02-21-04, 03:18 PM	Originally posted by fruits and vegetables before this obviously degenerates into a forseeable tactical arguement thread let us just call a truce. truce? besides, we can agree on two things i am sure. every situation is circumstantial. the DM ultimately decides if what you do is a good idea or a bad idea. Sure, we absolutely agree on those two things. I don't, however, see this degenerating into an argument - just a civil discussion of the desirability of different tactics in different situations. But if you'd prefer to drop the discussion here, that's fine with me.
Ingtar17 02-21-04, 06:29 PM	Hey guys. Thanks for the suggestions. Ingtar
celloshane 02-21-04, 08:05 PM	Heres my question, what kind of light source and whos holding it? I tend to suggest the Half-orc in front b/c darkvision.
Naeron 02-23-04, 05:58 AM	One very important think to remember is not to bunch up, leave a couple of 5ft squares in the party so that you can shift positions. Personally I would put the Rogue about 10ft out front to search for traps and spot hidden enemies. Unless you are of a level to encounter glyph traps searching the floor is generally all that you need to do. What the Rogue is looking for are the Triggers for a trap. A trap that triggers only if you touch the ceiling is harmless as long as no one touches anything the Rogue hasn't looked over. In travelled tunnels traps will be rare so taking 10 or rolling should be an acceptable trade of accuracy over time taken. But if you are creeping into an entrance to a complex (often trapped), have the time and the enemy are unaware creep down taking 20. Better to spend an hour creeping down a 150ft tunnel than alert the enemy by stumbling into a trap.
fruits and vegetables 02-23-04, 06:22 AM	exactly. we share the same approach. thank you.