Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BloodDragon 01-11-07, 01:39 PM	Hey all. Looking to Speicalize in Transmutation. As a Melee/Caster Have no clue what schools I should Prohibit. Any suggests on which two schools you beleive are the best to prohibit and why? Thanks all. :) Edit: Should also note that I don't think I'll be looking at any spells of 7th, 8th or 9th level.
CzarGarrett 01-11-07, 01:45 PM	I'd be tempted to say Enchantment and Illusion. Or possibly Evocation. If you plan on doing Melee stuff, Abjuration is something you'll want to keep, as well as Necromancy. Divination you never want to drop. And Conjuration can give you allies to flank with and the like.
Seerow 01-11-07, 01:50 PM	Evocation for sure. From there it's mostly personal choice, though Im inclined to agree with Enchantment.
Silversheen197 01-11-07, 02:10 PM	I have a focused transmuter/sorcerer/ultimate magus, and his prohibited schools are abjuration, illusion, and necromancy. Just my two cents (or copper).
Echo_that_Pains 01-11-07, 02:11 PM	I would say enchantment and evocation. IIRC, illusion allows you to use spells such as mirror image. Since there are no really major spells that would help with combat it would be your call. As Czar said, Abj, Necro, and Conj are ones that would help you out either way. Since it is not allowed to prohibit div, that is out of the question. If you want to be more caster than melee then Evo might be a bad one to drop and vice-versa.
Cifer 01-11-07, 05:27 PM	Abjuration is one of the schools you should never drop - there's just too much useful stuff inside, beginning with Dispel Magic, the probably most important spell the third level can grant you. With melee, necromancy seems to have some synergies... enchantment could be done away with - its useful, but can be dropped. Evocation can partially be replaced by the Orbs, so you might want to drop it.
mlund 01-11-07, 07:13 PM	When I built my Conjurer, I took barred schools of Enchantment and Abjuration. Both of these schools have most of their best spells overlapped with the Cleric and/or Bard spell lists anyway. If you have a Fighter / Rogue / Cleric / Wizard / Bard mix of some sort going, Abjuration and Enchantment really aren't as much as key a niche at the table as the Wizard's exclusive spells in Transmutation, Conjuration, Illusion, and Evocation can be. - Marty Lund
Sabo 01-11-07, 11:22 PM	Divination you never want to drop. This is never a problem as you are not able to drop Divination as a prohibited school, ever.
Sabo 01-11-07, 11:28 PM	Hey all. Looking to Speicalize in Transmutation. As a Melee/Caster Have no clue what schools I should Prohibit. Any suggests on which two schools you beleive are the best to prohibit and why? Thanks all. :) Edit: Should also note that I don't think I'll be looking at any spells of 7th, 8th or 9th level. I would ditch Illusion and Evocation.
claypigeons 01-11-07, 11:49 PM	I would ditch Evocation and Enchantment.
JasonOrlandoHawk 01-12-07, 01:38 AM	Honestly (preparing for imminent flame war), I'd probably drop Conjuration and Evocation. You're building a melee/caster w/ emphasis on Trasmutation. The philosophy of Trans. is to improve (in this case) yourself as much as possible so that you can tear through enemies as quickly as possible. Conjuration focuses on making something else appear, eating up your valuable spell slots that could be spent improving YOU. Evocation is a good drop b/c your damage source is the magically enhanced greatsword, not *boom!* effects. Also, both suffer from a list of powerful spells that are unfortunately area of effect, which means you can't use them w/o endangering yourself. Divination can't be dropped. Abjuration, Illusion, Necromancy, and even (forgive me for saying it) Enchantment are all more viable because they improve the most important thing in the fight: YOU! Conj. & Evoc. are too focused on doing things that don't outright benefit/improve you. Don't get me wrong. I, personally, am a huge proponent of the Evocation school. I sincerely believe that there is nothing, and I mean nothing, that can't be solved with the right combination of Divination and Evocation magic. But, In your case, Conjuration and Evocation just don't fit the build.
claypigeons 01-12-07, 02:39 AM	In your case, Conjuration and Evocation just don't fit the build. Would you rather have Teleport, Greater... or Power Word Blind... ? While conjuration doesnt do a ton for you in combat, it is AMAZING outside of combat. "Travel time is going be 1 month?"... "Eh.. hope... how about we get there Nnn *zap* ooow.. That was fast!"
cog_n_taz 01-12-07, 04:58 AM	Abjuration is one of the schools you should never drop - there's just too much useful stuff inside, beginning with Dispel Magic, the probably most important spell the third level can grant you. With melee, necromancy seems to have some synergies... enchantment could be done away with - its useful, but can be dropped. Evocation can partially be replaced by the Orbs, so you might want to drop it. nonsense! Fireball is the most useful spell! If you say otherwise, I shall smite you with my empowered maximized fireball and wis score of 3!:P
CzarGarrett 01-12-07, 09:31 AM	This is never a problem as you are not able to drop Divination as a prohibited school, ever. Works either way
Sabo 01-12-07, 10:29 AM	nonsense! Fireball is the most useful spell! If you say otherwise, I shall smite you with my empowered maximized fireball and wis score of 3!:P My friend, take a trip over to the Character OP or Magic and Spells boards. At either one the fine people there will educate you on the folly, of thinking fireball is the most useful spell.
GSonic7 01-14-07, 12:42 AM	And remember that you can always take Diversified Casting as a feat.
cog_n_taz 01-14-07, 01:03 AM	My friend, take a trip over to the Character OP or Magic and Spells boards. At either one the fine people there will educate you on the folly, of thinking fireball is the most useful spell. It was a joke, nevermind...
Cold Napalm 01-14-07, 02:26 AM	Umm as a melee caster NEVER EVER DROP ILLUSION. It has like 70% of the spells that's gonna keep you alive. Evocation is a pretty good school to drop since conjuration has the best blasty spells anyways...especially at the levels your talking about. Other then that, I usually drop enchantment, but necrmancy can also be fairly safely dropped along with abjuration.
draco1119 01-14-07, 07:45 AM	I always keep Enchantment for the handy-dandy Hold... spells. :D
Sabo 01-14-07, 03:53 PM	It was a joke, nevermind... Well that is what my foot tastes like. :confused:
Toloran 01-14-07, 10:25 PM	I second this notion: As a melee type caster/gish you need transmutation and abjuration to keep your physical abilities high (HP, Dex, Con, Str, AC, etc). Illusion is useful since it can be used to divert enemies away from your actual body (or make your actual body invisible). That leaves Enchantment, Necromancy, Evocation, and Conjuration. Conjuration has mage armor and also has all the teleportation school spells which improve your mobility. So it is probably a keeper. That leaves necromancy, enchantment, and Evocation. Since you are going to be in melee mostly, you don't really need evocation. Granted, there will be times where you'll have to fight an ememy at range but for those situations you can just use shadow evocation. So evocation is probably going to be a dump school. That leaves Necromancy and Enchantment. From here, it is mostly preference. Do you want more offensive based spells or utility based spells? If the former, keep necromancy. If the latter, keep enchantment.
itwasntme 01-14-07, 10:53 PM	While many people State Evo Is a School to dump i kinda find this agest my taste For one i keep Evo with my Melee guy doing the same thing its great to get thouse Targets ferther away or while im running away i could still be doing something agest my target (Sense most offince spells are Evo) This is more of a Hit n Run type of character tho I would say Necro and something eles Necro has nice spells but most are VS Fort and most monsters (Or Melee Type people which you'll be fighting) Has a strong Fort Save so i dount see that being big Except Vs Caster but if your fighting casters and not Melee type people? Then thats fine But heck Necro can be good if you can pass there Save Evo useoly has a Ref Sav and while you may not do much damage with the Spell your not looking for a kill im looking for a disrupt with my spell Its a caster i rather Disrupt him and not pop up next to him and his Big Beefy Shield golem or w/e eles is guarding him As Mention before with Necro your Save DC Is going to be lower then most casters with your level so having Evo (where spells still do something even on a save vs it inless vs Rouge But agest them just have Some short of Cover/Concelment to protect you from there SA) Face it your DC isnt going to be as good as other Casters (Inless good rolls or something eles is going on) Im talking about point buy or elite format (15,14,13,12,10,08) So Necro isnt the greatest pick in my favor You should have your Str/Dex/Con pretty high if your going to be in melee if you want a good Save DC you need 4 stats now While you could buff up Str/Dec/Con/Hp/Defence with spells thats a lot of pre buffing going on before hand and you dount have many spells to waste sense your not a pure caster So in my choice Keep Evo and have it be a "Disrupt" Type of spell you know the thing that dosnt realy Hurt/Kill anyone its just there to keep your opinits busy so you can deal the killing blow Thats just my mind tho but i think im out voted so go with w/e you want
RellenMarn 01-15-07, 12:30 AM	Well personally I think you can get by with virtually any prohibited schools. I usually drop Necromancy purely for flavor purposes, as I generally play good pcs. I would advise against dropping Illusion or Conjuration, they are very versitile schools that can aide the whole party. I would also advise against dropping Evocation, but this one is DM dependent. If you have not got access to the Spell Compendium, or your DM abhors the Orb Spells the Evocation is a handy school. I would not suggest becoming an Evoker, or wasteing any feats on it, but though they are hardly godly fireball and its ilk can still be very useful, especially at lower levels. I find Enchantment to be another easy drop choice, but this is more an RP choice than a power one. Abjuration is very useful and you need it if you want to enter the wonderful Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil PRC. Hope that helps!
Cold Napalm 01-15-07, 01:57 AM	Well evocation as a dropped school stems from the fact that not only the orb spells, but things like vitrolic shpere makes it rather a poor choice if damage if what you want. These conjuration spells go through SR and evocation doesn't...AND they do more damage. Somebody at wizards really REALLY has a conjuration fetish. I mean it gets STRONGER in 3.5 where all the schools are suppose to be balance now?!? It was already a top tier school in 3.0. Whatever... As a melee caster, abjuration actually doesn't bring much for you since most of the protection from that school other then shield ONLY protects from magical attacks. Dispel magic is a big miss if the build retains CL...but otherwise that kinda becomes useless pretty quickly. I prefer to keep this school, but it is one that is acceptable to lose. Necro...ah necro...it bring vamp touch and the stat penalty rays...and that's about it. Sure you can use it lower saves and what not, but that's what a caster does, melee casters generally don't. So it really does once again depend on build, but easily liveable without. Enchantment has hold person and some nice morale boosting buffs...once again, pretty easy to live without. Illusion...invis, greater invis, mirror image, blur, displacement...love the miss chance. It's what lets a melee caster live past the first round which is why you should not give up this school. Conjuration...You'd have to be a bloody moron to give this school up. It has summons spells, good utility spells (like oh teleport spells and shelter spells), good defensive spells and some of the best offensive spells. You could lose all the other schools and still be a good caster with just this school.
RellenMarn 01-15-07, 02:16 AM	Well yes, Conjuration is better than Evocation for damage dealing..... BUT ONLY if you have access to non core books and a DM who does not nerf it. Personally I feel that Evocation should be the damage school, conjuration is already a top contender for most powerful school even without those danged Orbs, etc. By RAW with access to the Spell Compendium, evocation becomes eminently more droppable.
Cold Napalm 01-15-07, 01:34 PM	Well when discusiing rules mechanics...like say the power of various schools, you always go by RAW unless the OP says otherwise. Without this assumtion, all discussion on this board would be meaningless as one player goes well my dm does x while another players dm does y and none of that applies to the OP who's DM is going via RAW like most cases. That said, I generally assume that at least the 4 first complete books are allowed if nothing else (which is where the orb and vitrolic sphere comes from). But I could be wrong and this could be a core game...but these days, people generally say core game if it is.
interpretivechaos 01-15-07, 06:44 PM	Once again, if you have access to Complete Arcane or Spell Compendium drop Evocation. Don't drop Conjuration. It has most battlefield control spells that a tactically minded spellcasting fighter will need, plus damage, plus the crucial teleport spells for mobility. If you fancy your fighter as the kind that chew threw a half dozen Kolbolds a comes face to face with a heavily armored barbarian staring at you menacingly, wave your hands a little and watch him drop to the ground, keep enchantment. Illusion has a lot of defensive spells that make sure you aren't hit (mirror image, invisibility). Furthermore, the hallmark illusion spells are good at battlefield control and can cover some evocation when you really need it with the shadow spells. Necromancy is really not my favorite. It has a few very useful spells, but they don't synergize very well all that often with damage dealers, and I prefer the other save or dies. Abjuration has a lot of nice spells. Shield is nice at low levels if you wield a two handed weapon, If you don't have two other people who can cast dispel magic, do not give this up. It will make a lot of encounters easy, and a few possible. I would drop Evocation and Necromancy, but Necromancy could be exchanged with enchantment or if you really really want to illusion.
ravenshrike 01-16-07, 02:28 AM	Honestly, I'd drop ench. before necro for the reason of a single spell. Bestow Curse. Combine with a limited wish(wish if epic level) and a fly spell and it's guaranteed to **** with any dragon. Can't do anything for a round? Damn, say goodnight gracie.
Cold Napalm 01-16-07, 02:51 AM	Well abjuration does have shield, but honestly you can live without that. The dispel magic will only be worthwhile IF the OP's build retains enough CL...otherwise, it will be rather useless. Other wise it has a lot of protection from other magic spells...which may or may not be issue depending on build. So the usefulness of this class is very VERY build dependent. But yeah, generally I like my dispel magic :) .
Harrowdroth 01-16-07, 03:21 AM	My favorite wizard has been a... Conjuror/Red wizard/demologist (I'd take diabolist, but its a damned pointless class imho), I get rid of Abjuration and Enchantment, heh, I wander around throwing little balls of Deathflame :D and having my demons mop up the rest.
BloodDragon 01-16-07, 10:56 AM	Hmn, sounds like a short heated disscussion. Well to answer some questions, All books (And Dragon Mags) are allowed (Execpt Vile Dark). So Spell Compendium is a go. I'll have 18 CL (19 for Transmutation spells) at level 20... still working on how to keep all my caster levels though. And I'll also probably be taking Abjuration Champion from Complete Mage so not sure I should drop Abjuration. (WHY doesn't Abjuration Champion require Spell focus!? It's so broken) Evocation is dropped. Not even an arguement before I made this thread. So I guess I'm leaning on Necro, or Enchantment. I know what Enchantment has to offer, what does Necro have for me? Keeping in mind this character will probably have low saves. Yes he'll probably be using two handed weapons (ofcourse that changes with whatever the DM throws at me.) And I'll be focusing mainly on melee as I've already said. Spell casting will be more self/party buffing.
Cold Napalm 01-16-07, 12:43 PM	Necro has vampiric touch, stat reducing rays (ray of stupidily is stupidly broken...a 2nd level spell that kills a roc with no save) and many status effects. I personally prefer it over enchantment. If you have spell channel in your build, definately keep necro since using a spell channeled vamp touch is a great way to start off a fight :) .
Mechnomancer 01-16-07, 04:06 PM	the decision between enchantment and necromancy is tough. Both can stop a fight before it starts. the question is what kind of enemies does the dm like to throw at you? Enchantment is all will saves while most necromancy spells require fortitude saves. I would go with necromancy since it seems more versitile. It has show stoppers as well as debuffers. Plus a number of no save spells. try starting combat against the big bad no-neck with a ray of enfeeblement. It is going to be tough swinging that sword with 1d6+1/2 levels less strength.
NiteCyper 01-19-07, 12:40 AM	Going for a Gnome Illusionist 5/ScM 5/Inx 10, I cannot get rid of Abjuration and Illusion (and Divination too, obviously). I took out Necro, Evoc and Trans. Why? Well, I used to have Conj. for Trans. but this thread made me rethink it. Spells from 1st level to 3rd to start at versatility. Also, keep in mind some of the spells I don't check so you may be missing out on how much it depends on the enemie's saves too. Necro's goodies are Ray of Enfeeblement, Blindness/Deafness, Touch of Fatigue, Ghoul Touch, Spectral Hand, Ray of Exhaustion and don't forget Vampiric Touch. Touchy subject, n'est-ce pas? Hmm... quite the touchy one. Being me and not a melee caster, I dinnae like it lad. Trans has stuff useful for creative utilitilizers. Lawl. Tool spells. One who shoots sparkly creative happy magic buffers. Yeah. Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Reduce Person, Alter Self, Buff spells that make you fast like tree, strong like mouse, quiet like cricket and smart like cow. Rope trick, Haste, Slow, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge, Fly and blink. Look people, I don't DO buff, mmkay? Let's leave it at that... Thirdly, Evocation. Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Flaming Sphere?, Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Again, me no melee. AT least not until level 11 when I get ScM 3 and I obtain Shadow Illusion. Look at the thread Top spells from level 1-9. Conjuration has Grease and Glitterdust. I have Headband of Intellect +4 and total int of 24. Illusion and Enchantment fo rizzle! I can't drop Abjuration either. That's about it. I can freaking permanent any spell worth permanency without XP cost. In jo face, MMM! REAL GOOD. Just had to say that. I dunno if I'll be back to this board, prolly no. I'm searching for the Nerfiest Campaign Ever thread.
Edymnion 01-19-07, 11:56 AM	Honestly? None of them. Specialization is a lousy thing to do, as you always lose far more than you gain, reguardless of what you do.