Post/Author/DateTime	Post
burning_blood 10-16-04, 12:52 AM	What, in all of your opinions, is the best combat style for a pure rogue (ie a character with no non-rogue levels)? Reading the threads over the last few months, there seem to be three main options: ranged, spring-attack, and TWF. I'm looking for a little discussion on which one you think is generally the most effective. Obviously they all have their advantages and disadvantages, and they all involve making the most of sneak attack damage while living to tell about it. Ranged: The best in terms of survivability, since you can try to stay out of harm's way. Of course, it's not too hard for an opponent to move 30 ft. in one round to get at you, if they have a clear path. Unfortunately you don't get many sneak attacks - after the first round (when the enemy is probably flat-footed for your first attacks), you can get at best one SA per round, and that's only when sniping with -20 on your hide. Spring attack: Run in, flank, get one SA, run away. You're probably still just out of reach of your enemy, but not by very much; and you're still only getting one SA per round, but at least you're pretty much guaranteed that one - no need to make checks with massive penalties every round. This is rather heavy on the feats, too. TWF: Can deal terrific amounts of damage. However, this style forces you to stand and fight your opponent toe-to-toe, and the average rogue has neither the AC nor the HP to act like a tank. So, the choices seem to be either to hide safely in the back while doing pathetic damage; or to run in, do massive damage, and then get pulverized into bloody goo. (I'm exaggerating, of course). Which method do you find the most successful?
Telperion 10-16-04, 01:55 AM	What, in all of your opinions, is the best combat style for a pure rogue (ie a character with no non-rogue levels)? I prefer a little bit of everything. The spring attack usually comes in only after 10th level, but by that time I will have picked up a rogue special ability to make my enemies life a whole lot harder. Unlike, probably, most other PC rogues I tend not to get Improved Evasion at 10th level, because Opportunist is great for dealing loads of damage. There's also Skilled Opportunist in Player's Guide to Rogues and Rangers, which is a great addition. I only enter close combat when there is more than one ally to help me against a foe. Flanking is essential and making sure the opponent doesn't decide to concentrate on the rogue is another must for survival. Unfortunately I haven't the time to write any more now, but I'll come back later.
friedmad 10-16-04, 02:10 AM	TWF definitely, and another melee party member so you can get flank attacks. even at low level, a flanking rogue is lethal. at 5th or 6th level (i forget at which one your BaB is +6/+1) with TWF, thats 3 attacks on a flanked opponent. good chance of scoring 3 hits, and with a 14 strength, you can deal 17-81 points of damage a round (sweeeeet)
Shadowmagyk 10-16-04, 02:47 AM	TWF definitely, and another melee party member so you can get flank attacks. even at low level, a flanking rogue is lethal. at 5th or 6th level (i forget at which one your BaB is +6/+1) with TWF, thats 3 attacks on a flanked opponent. good chance of scoring 3 hits, and with a 14 strength, you can deal 17-81 points of damage a round (sweeeeet) ROG does not get +6/+1 BAB until 8th level. I like TWF. However, I do not use a high STR. DEX is always first for me, followed by CON. The SA damage more than makes up for a low STR score. (By low, I mean 12 STR.)
darczero 10-16-04, 03:09 AM	I would have to say Spring Attack is a good one, but like you said, it limits you to one attack per round. Do you really need more than that? Most DM's will only give you one Sneak Attack per round, regardless of how many attacks you could otherwise be making (18th level rogue with greater two-weapon fighting and a pair of shortswords, making six sneak attacks per round? I'm playing a Rogue next!), although I don't know if there's any official ruling on the subject. Also, go with Weapon Finesse and something like a Rapier. You don't have to spend an extra feat to gain proficiency (unlike the spiked chain many of these people swear by), and it's one of the higher damage output finessable weapons out there. A regular increase to Dex is a great idea, especially after you're satisfied with how many skill points you're getting per level (I personally find that any more than 20 is just annoying).
philopharynx 10-16-04, 01:23 PM	The spring attack option is enhanced by taking a few levels of dervish from the complete warrior. For one thing, it gives you the feat for free, and it increases your move. (I'd also get dash to add +5 to move from the complete warrior) It also allows you to essentially spring attack with a full attack when you dance. Then you get to take ten on tumble - very useful when you can tumble at full speed without worrying about rolling a 1. Well work losing a couple of sneak attack dice.
Shadowmagyk 10-16-04, 01:50 PM	I would have to say Spring Attack is a good one, but like you said, it limits you to one attack per round. Do you really need more than that? Most DM's will only give you one Sneak Attack per round, regardless of how many attacks you could otherwise be making (18th level rogue with greater two-weapon fighting and a pair of shortswords, making six sneak attacks per round? I'm playing a Rogue next!), although I don't know if there's any official ruling on the subject. .......... About which part are you unsure? Rogues can take the TWF tree. They can use short swords. Under the section Sneak Attack, it specifically states that anytime an opponent is denied their DEX bonus, or when the ROG is flanking, SA occurs. What one has to remember about SA is that it is no longer Backstab damage. The Rogue does not need to hide. In 2e, the Sneak part of the attack was the Rogue sneaking up to the opponent to deliver a deadly strike. In 3e, the Sneak part is the actual attack. (I am not being rude.)
Mirtek 10-16-04, 04:06 PM	(18th level rogue with greater two-weapon fighting and a pair of shortswords, making six sneak attacks per round? I'm playing a Rogue next!), Of course, being a rogue, most attacks won't hit. And even worse: Even the few hits will be enough to let any intelligent monster notice who is hurting it the most with a single attack, and note that the rogue is the one wearing the least steel, it will be a matter of fact who to kill first. A rogue can deal devasting damage in melee, but he can't take damage as well as he inflicts it.
JabberWocky 10-16-04, 04:37 PM	But do you know what wins? Rogue/Invisible Blade. I don't know why anyone would go for any other Prestige Class if they want their rogue to be an active participant in combat. For me, if I go purely rogue, I almost always go for the TWF line. Well, depending on my scores. If I get a good Dex but a crap Str, I'm going the be the one hiding somewhere behind the enemy while our tanks smack on them, firing one crossbow bolt or arrow a round. Hopefully, the big nasty won't care for a little 1d6+1d6 when compared to 1d12+11 or 5d6 fireballs. :P
burning_blood 10-17-04, 01:50 AM	Of course, being a rogue, most attacks won't hit. And even worse: Even the few hits will be enough to let any intelligent monster notice who is hurting it the most with a single attack, and note that the rogue is the one wearing the least steel, it will be a matter of fact who to kill first. This, in my experience, is exactly what happens to rogues who stick around in melee; one round of devastating sneak attacks makes the rogue the main target of every enemy in melee. Yet there still seem to be a lot of TWF fans. How do those characters survive?
Arak the mighty 10-17-04, 02:00 AM	Just because they're wearing the least amount of steel doesn't mean the Rogue has the lowest AC. Rings and Cloaks of Protection, coupled with high DEX bonuses, coupled with buying or finding magical studded leather (and a displacer cloak!) can make a rogue capable of taking a few rounds of damage. Granted, when I play a rogue, I take a few levels in fighter here and there, just for the HP and combat bonuses. I tend to hang around the periphery of a battle, and look for weaker or badly hurt opponents, and SA them, letting the big guns do the majority of the damage to the front line fighters of the enemy. I use ranged attacks as long as possible, stay out of sight if it's feasible, and pick my targets carefully.
BOK2 10-17-04, 07:25 AM	Surprise Round: use range attacks, deal SA damage 1st Round: keep using range attacks if opponent is still flatfooted, or move in for a flanking SA If youve got the opportunist ability, this will allow you to make 1 morre flanking SA during your ally's turn. :)
The Man from Uncle 10-17-04, 07:28 AM	I don't normally speak in abreviations, so it took me a while to work out what TWF meant. Two Weapon fighting, right? Well, assuming am correct, i used to think that was the best path (in terms of combat) for a rogue, especially when combined with Ranger or Fighter levels. But now i have to go for ranged. The rogue in the current group i am playing is devastating with a bow (though in all fairness its a good bow he inherited from my last ranger). We're level 18 now (took 3 years) and he is the only character to have made it from level 1. He dabbles with a bit of SA (sneak attack?) using whatever half decent melee weapon he has, but less and less frequantly now that hes got pretty much all the bow feats. I think if you want to go with the melee rogue, you really got to back it up with a lot of other levels in other classes (fighter, barbarian or ranger). But then are you really a rogue who likes combat, or a warrior class who can sneak attack?
Silimaure 10-18-04, 04:20 PM	You forget the best type, Reach weapons. If a Rogue uses a halberd or other reach weapon, he can still flank from a distance, which means Sneak Attacks in places most combatants would forget about. And since he's not right next to the enemy, he's got a smaller chance of getting mauled.
meabolex 10-18-04, 04:32 PM	Best rogue in terms of pure damage balanced with survivability? TWF + Quick Draw with thrown weapons. . . if you don't want to throw them, simply use them in melee. This gives you the flexibility to avoid having to run up to big toughs AND lets you benefit from Rapid Shot (and possibly Improved Rapid Shot), TWF, and possibly flurry of blows (if you're using shuriken and have a level in monk). Note that while all these attacks may not hit well, the Master Thrower prestige class (CW) can make them all touch attacks . . . which are extremely powerful. But the build is fine even without the Master Thrower.
Shadowmagyk 10-18-04, 07:12 PM	You forget the best type, Reach weapons. If a Rogue uses a halberd or other reach weapon, he can still flank from a distance, which means Sneak Attacks in places most combatants would forget about. And since he's not right next to the enemy, he's got a smaller chance of getting mauled. I agree. I am currently playing in a campaign using a whip-dagger. That 15ft reach gives me a little room to attack an enemy. Best rogue in terms of pure damage balanced with survivability? TWF + Quick Draw with thrown weapons. . . if you don't want to throw them, simply use them in melee. This gives you the flexibility to avoid having to run up to big toughs AND lets you benefit from Rapid Shot (and possibly Improved Rapid Shot), TWF, and possibly flurry of blows (if you're using shuriken and have a level in monk). Note that while all these attacks may not hit well, the Master Thrower prestige class (CW) can make them all touch attacks . . . which are extremely powerful. But the build is fine even without the Master Thrower. Thrown weapons count as ranged attacks. So, only in certain conditions will the SA work. It must be within 30ft, and the defender must have a condtion that denies DEX. The reason it must be these two conditions is that flanking requires a melee attack.
Thalos 10-21-04, 06:23 PM	Um... I don't know why no one seems to have thought of this, but I have an epic character (designed only, not played) that, well, is not a pleasant person to meet in a dark alley. He's a human half-dragon Rogue multiclass with Fighter & Ranger levels - love the human "any" favoured class... He does this: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting & (Improved) Whirlwind Attack.... Needless to say, put him in the middle of an army woth one-handed reach weapons, and watch the fun begin... He was originally designed to be a rough approximation of a character in one of my in-progress literary works. It was calculated that it would take about 800 human skeletons (basic) to take him out, and that would involve them ALL rolling twenties... A Marilith would have a tough time One on one with this dude... Needless to say, I have way too much time on my hands. Now, as for my prefered method of fighting with the rogue I have played, I go with two weapon fighting, with maximized ability in feinting... Why beat an opponent in a straight fight, when you can out smart him and get him to beat himself? :smirk: :smirk: :smirk: :schemes: :schemes: :schemes: :D :D :D
StrangeFish 10-22-04, 04:06 AM	If you're proficient with a bow (take levels in fighter if you can) and a ring of blinking, a rogue makes an excellent archer. While blinking, you fight as if you're invisible! Sneak attack city without all that dangerous melee :) And blinking is also a big advantage defensively. 50% miss chance, 20% chance most targeted spells wont affect you. The down side is that it isn't so great for hiding, and there's a 20% chance your shots will miss, but you get all of your attacks every round, and they all get sneak attack damage (unless the opponent is immune or can see invisible). If you can't afford the ring, blink is a 3rd level spell, so getting a wizard or bard to cast it on you should be easy, or buy a wand. Below 6th level melee isn't so dangerous, so melee and flanking is often a better deal. This also works for melee, but I've found the average rogue just can't survive a full round attack by most creatures, and being 30' away limits them to one swing in most cases, which is usually survivable. Being an archer also gives you something to do when the enemy is immune to sneak attacks. You may not do as much damage, but you can still shoot from relative safety.
starfire311 10-22-04, 09:19 AM	Most DM's will only give you one Sneak Attack per round, regardless of how many attacks you could otherwise be making (18th level rogue with greater two-weapon fighting and a pair of shortswords, making six sneak attacks per round? I'm playing a Rogue next!), although I don't know if there's any official ruling on the subject. I have never played a game in which the DM hasn't allowed SAs on every attack that qualified. As for official Rulings From SRD The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. It seems easy enough to figure out to me.
meabolex 10-22-04, 09:48 AM	Thrown weapons count as ranged attacks. So, only in certain conditions will the SA work. It must be within 30ft, and the defender must have a condtion that denies DEX. The reason it must be these two conditions is that flanking requires a melee attack. I wish we had a smiley of an idea flying way over someone's head. . . I guess that would be hard to draw (: No, I don't get what you're saying. My point was with throwing weapons, you can use ranged attacks with rapid shot and TWF and all at once. . . then move up to melee combat and use the same weapons to dish out melee attacks (using TWF, the throwing weapon's Weapon Focus, if any, and possibly Weapon Finesse). Rather than box yourself in with ranged attacks or TWF, why not have both with throwing weapons? BTW, throwing weapons usually have a pretty short range increment, so you're most likely going to be within 30 ft. to get the sneak attack anyway. To be really successful with this though, you'll probably have to multiclass with fighter to pick up enough bonus feats. YMMV. . .
starfire311 10-22-04, 09:53 AM	As for best comabt style...there are mainly 2 options and I have done them both, but I personally ranged and 2 weapon... I personally prefer ranged, but both can be very strong especially 2 weapons with the invisible blade.
Hero of Sshamath 10-22-04, 11:17 AM	Typically, when playing a non-multiclassed rogue. I stick to straight out two-weapon fighting and put my highest scores into Dex and Con, (in that order) even without a strength bonus to damage...*if you can it one it's nice but not needed* you'll deal nasty damage per round...Let the tanks charge in head first and go for the sneak attack, if you start to get smacked around, move out of the way...In all likelihood. you're going to have a faster rate of movement than anything you're fighting, barring animals and flying nasties...But, I digress, With a shortsword and dagger or longsword and shortsword (depending on your size catagory) you'll be devistating in the flank position...add in an item that gives you blink or any form of invisibility will have you flanking almost constantly...*greater invisibility is the best because then ALL attacks deny Dex bonus*...and as far as feats go, I'd focus mainly on TWF feats in the first levels, but take improved critical...( but use the same type of weapon in both hands with the penalties are not so high) Then you can deal stupid huge amounts of damage on a sneak attack, and make several of them a round...More often than not, when this is the case, by the time your toughie realizes your there...They are already dead or well on the way to it. Thus, removing the threat of having low HP. :smirk:
Belaraphon 10-22-04, 11:54 AM	this can really only work for gnomes and halflings all you need is a nifty mechanism that as you push the toe of your boot in - a blade ejects out of it. while on a rather eventfull mission to recover some stolen good my parts was confrunted by a bugbear. this was quite the challenge for 3 lvl 1 characters. when his attention was focused away from me i dashed in and made a jump and grapple check. succeeding both rather easily the result ment that i jumped onto his back and then pushed the toe of my boot into its lower back causing the blade to come out and keep me secure. i then proceeded to stab him in the back until he fell.
Marros 10-22-04, 03:35 PM	A build I was going to try was a Rogue 10/ Monk 6/ Duelist 4 An extra attack from Flurry of blows at only -1, along with Two Weapon Fighting, can allow you to make Sneak Attack after Sneak Attack every round (albeit with a monk weapon, though they can be Finessed) The +20 speed bonus, +1 AC bonus, 30 ft slow fall, Wisdom Bonus to AC, and excellent saves don't hurt either. The levels of Duelist are for bonuses to AC (inteligence), Initiative, the Mobility Feat, and Reflex saves. I stopped before Precise Strike (not good for TWF)
devinmdp 10-22-04, 08:48 PM	This, in my experience, is exactly what happens to rogues who stick around in melee; one round of devastating sneak attacks makes the rogue the main target of every enemy in melee. Yet there still seem to be a lot of TWF fans. How do those characters survive? Rogues have to be played smart. You are correct, rogues have the tendency to get in one devestating attack and then get the crud beaten out of them, since they have low ACs and low hp. In fact, a rogue player in my own campaign was complaining of this. Even moreso in my campaign, because after he would sneak attack his foes, they would almost uniformally begin to attack him exclusive to all other foes. So he would really get the smackdown. He asked me how he could hope to survive. Here is what I told him: Rogues must be opportunists. While it may be tempting to try to get that lovely sneak attack damage every single round of combat by simply walking up and flanking an opponent, that just cannot happen without the rogue dying often. Sneak attack is a devestating ability. It does as much damage as most comparable level wizard spells will do on a successful save (i.e. 6th level rogue does +3D6 and a 6th level fireball does half of 6D6 on a save). To expect to be able to generate that type of damage every round is expecting too much. What a thief should do is wait on the edge of combat, just out of harm's way. He should time his attacks to go after his fighter companions attack and only go in for a strike if he is relatively certain that his foe will fall from it. If the foe doesn't fall, then at worst the thief will take 1 round of counter striking. He should then run away and heal up. While it may seem lame to try to wait to get the telling blow on your foes, if you do it right it will actually become quite cool. For most encounters with a suitable EL for your party, unless there is a single BBEG, you should be able to pretty much strike at a foe that is about to fall every single round. Just follow the fighters around. In most parties, concentration of firepower is a paramount tactical technique. Since wounded foes in D&D do not degrade in combat ability, a troll with 1 hp is just as dangerous as one with full hp. Even in an iconic party, by the time the fighter and cleric and wizard get done working on one of your opponents, he should be wobbly enough that a single sneak attack can finish him off. Once a rogue gets Spring Attack, it doesn't matter much anymore. While some here have pointed out that Spring Attack sometimes leaves a rogue too close to the melee to survive, by the time you get SA, you should have plenty of means to increase your speed. At the very minimum any rogue worth his salt should have an Expeditious Retreat wand and enough Use Magic Device to cast it on himself. Mobility is a rogue's friend! Add to that a friendly Haste spell from the party wizard or boots of speed, and your rogue with Spring Attack should be popping all over the place with almost no chance of getting whacked. Yes, you lose multiple attacks, but who cares? With your retarded BAB and lack of Str, you shouldn't be hitting too much at your CR on your secondary strike anyways, and since your sneak attack does far more than attacking twice anyways, you still remain potent even at 1 attack per round. Devin
starfire311 10-25-04, 08:03 AM	Rogues must be opportunists. While it may be tempting to try to get that lovely sneak attack damage every single round of combat by simply walking up and flanking an opponent, that just cannot happen without the rogue dying often. Sneak attack is a devestating ability. It does as much damage as most comparable level wizard spells will do on a successful save (i.e. 6th level rogue does +3D6 and a 6th level fireball does half of 6D6 on a save). To expect to be able to generate that type of damage every round is expecting too much. Devin Why is it too much to expect.... wizards can do that much damage if not more every round, so why should the rogue be punished and not the wizard... using that same logic as soon as the party wizard casts a spell that does some damage, all of the enemies should go after him. A rogue doing an extra 3d6 a round is nothing really... Example 6th level rogue BAB +4 has strength 14, Dex 18 and Weapon Focus and weapon finesse rapier with sneak attack deals a total of 4D6+2 damage on a hit, average of 16 points 6th level Fighter BAB +6 has strength 18, Weapon Focus and specialization Great Sword and Power Attack. Lets say the fighter Power attacks for 2 so that he has the same chance of hitting as the Rogue. This is 2D6+12 Damage or an average of 19 points of damage. So even under the best circumstances for the rogue he is still dealling less damage than the fighter.
devinmdp 10-25-04, 01:55 PM	Why is it too much to expect.... wizards can do that much damage if not more every round, so why should the rogue be punished and not the wizard... using that same logic as soon as the party wizard casts a spell that does some damage, all of the enemies should go after him. A rogue doing an extra 3d6 a round is nothing really... Well, my monsters do usually try to go after wizards first. But the problem often is that unless the player playing the wizard is an idiot, the wizard is usually situated safely away from easy melee contact, and even if not, the enemy would likely have to take AoO to disengage from melee to get to the wizard. On the other hand, a sneak attacking thief is adjacent to the enemy and in easy bashing range. Devin
Son of Khoron 10-28-04, 11:37 PM	Depends on taste. I prefer TWF all of the way. True, straight rogues will not see +6/+1 for awhile, compared to fighters. Thats why you take a couple of ranger levels to jack up the BAB and gain TWF, or a couple of fighter levels for BAB points and get 2 more feats. Spring Attack is good to get the drop on a foe and jump back, better if you are flanking when you do so you get the extra sneak attack dice thrown into your damage dice...and yes, it allows only one attack with additional damage. However, TWF is an assetwhen you look at it from a support position or a surprise position. The rogue is not designed to go upfront...he is the stelathy killer and the cleaner-upper. Killer: good at hiding and moving silently to plunge multiple attacks into the vitals of your unsuspecting victim. Cleaner-upper: flank the wounded opponent of your comrade to finish it off with a well-placed much-damaging blow. Sneak attacks occur on the round you have the advantage and it does apply to all of the rogue's attacks for that one round. Multiple sneak attack damage...ouch! ouch! ouch! TWF, Greater TWF, Expert Tactician, Improved Critical, Weapon Finesse, Arterial Strike, and many more to compliment a series of bleeding and hurting attacks with your greater-than-normal-chance-to-crit-weapon
BronzeBeard 11-06-04, 08:30 PM	are you sure the only choices are the three you mentioned? As for me, I prefer to use single bladed and unarmored ( :uh-huh: ) The rogue, as it is - I mean - not with varients, doesn't have the right BaB for melee combat or the armor nithere the HP (I remember all the times that I stiked first for sneak attack damage and the next round I was already dead). So, basiclly, what I do is using ranged attacks (crossbow) at low-levels. By the time I get 6 BaB I take the duelist PrC, which gives me +Int. Mod. for the AC (superb) and from there I enchance a bit the single blade attacks and along this way I get springs (pereq.). Bottom line is that I use all of the above methods.
burning_blood 11-07-04, 02:18 AM	are you sure the only choices are the three you mentioned? ... By the time I get 6 BaB I take the duelist PrC... Well, as I said, I was wondering specifically about pure rogue characters who don't take levels in any other class, i.e. characters who on level 20 have 20 levels of rogue. Interesting stuff so far though, everyone.
delroland 11-07-04, 02:31 AM	Try this on for size: Halfling Rogue Max out Hide, as high as it can go. Put your lowest stat in Strength. Get Rapid Reload (light crossbow) and use one. Snipe. A lot. "Hey," some people would say, "if you are sniping, you can only make one attack, so why get rapid reload?" That's because it takes a move action to hide while sniping, and so you can't spare the time to reload. Also, this build lets you penalize a stat that is almost totally worthless to this build. The only thing you miss out on is carrying capacity. Yes, you only get one attack a round, but once you hit 10th level, they will never be able to find you, because you can take Skill Mastery (Hide), and always take 10.
trapspringer 11-07-04, 05:49 PM	If you are using the facing varient from UA, ranged is superior.
BronzeBeard 11-13-04, 06:30 PM	Well, as I said, I was wondering specifically about pure rogue characters who don't take levels in any other class, i.e. characters who on level 20 have 20 levels of rogue. Interesting stuff so far though, everyone. In that case I must say that I'd prefer range, or sniping (crossbows) or thrown objects. The rogue as it is cannot give me the sufficient edge I need in my DM's adventure. The monsters are just too damn though.
Molitor 11-13-04, 06:57 PM	I'm probably going against the norm when I say this: You would get the best out of using a weapon that allows two-handed use, as well as one-handed. Lets look at it shall we.....take a battle axe for example, with the power attack feat you could reduce your attack and 2handed get twice that amount on damage as per the power attack feat. On sneak attacks that would be very helpful, the victim is already losing some AC due to your surprise. Even if you were to give up only 2 on your attack, that still equates to 4 points of damage. I think you understand what I'm saying. TWF is a joke unless you are a fighter. Most people will say have "high dex, take weapon finesse, more attacks," etc. That works, but, how many games have you been in where you had wished your rogue could have done even just a couple more points of damage each attack. TWF sounds like this at the table.....swing, hit...swing, hit...swing, swing...miss, miss. Make every hit count more with a bigger weapon. It is that simple. Add a buckler on your off hand and you really have a better chance of surviving those toe to toe combats. If your going the "spring attack" route you will have dodge and mobility anyways. Also max out your tumble and get extremely familiar with the delay action in the PHB. Go last on some rounds when your allies can grant the flank, move into position and attack. When they no longer grant the flank get out of there. It is that simple. And the flank bonus of +2 use as power attack damage(+4).
Falkus 11-13-04, 09:31 PM	What, in all of your opinions, is the best combat style for a pure rogue (ie a character with no non-rogue levels)? Whatever you find the most fun.