Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mtrpcic 02-25-07, 03:57 AM	What spellcasters are the best, in your opinion. It can be anything; Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock, Spell Thief, Cleric, Favored Soul...the list goes on. What do you think is the overall BEST spellcaster, and why?
BW0222 02-25-07, 04:30 AM	mtrpcic, Most folks assume the druid, if you mean most powerful. * Good hit points - especially compaired to most spell casting classes. * Good fort and will saves. * Fair BAB. * Best mix of spells. Healing, buff, reasonably good offensive spells, etc. * Divine caster. Ability to gain lots of specialized and healing spells with rest. For example, cure disease or neutralize poison. * Spontaneous casting. Summoning spells are generally the most powerful. In many cases, you can summon creatures equal to the CR you are fighting. * Full spellcasting. 2nd level spells at 3rd, 3rd-level at 5th, etc. * An animal companion. Free body guard. * Wildshape. Turns you into a reasonable fighter, flying, underwater, spying, stealth, etc. * Reasonable skill points and class skills -- including dipomacy.
Sareld 02-25-07, 08:44 AM	Druid, everything is only 2nd. To add a little to the above list, druids have acces to the most potent damage spell ever created.... creeping doom. At 3rd level, a druid can cast it as a 2nd level spell for 6d6 cold damage. At 5th level, a druid can cast it with 'extend spell' for 21d6 cold damage. At 15th level, a druid can cast it with 'persistant spell' for... hundreds of thousands of d6. I dont even want to calculate the total max. Combine with 'Energy Substitution: Sonic' to bypass all resistance.
runestar 02-25-07, 08:55 AM	I will take cleric, if only for the cheater of mystra build.:) Ability to cast spells in AMF Dweomerkeeper lets them cast key spells like limited wish and miracle as supernatural abilities(no xp components etc) Initiate of mystra adds anyspell/greater anyspell to clerical spell list. This nets them polymorph(post errata wildshape? Not interested:P ), among other choice arcane spells to (ab)use. Divine metamagic. I could go on, but those are just icing on the cake.:D
Finfreeze 02-25-07, 11:39 AM	Druid, everything is only 2nd. To add a little to the above list, druids have acces to the most potent damage spell ever created.... creeping doom. At 3rd level, a druid can cast it as a 2nd level spell for 6d6 cold damage. At 5th level, a druid can cast it with 'extend spell' for 21d6 cold damage. At 15th level, a druid can cast it with 'persistant spell' for... hundreds of thousands of d6. I dont even want to calculate the total max. Combine with 'Energy Substitution: Sonic' to bypass all resistance. Wait...what? Isn't that the 7th level spell that lets you summon mundane centipede swarms and takes an entire round to cast? Flavor-wise, I like Battle Sorcerers the most overall. I in general prefer spontaneous casting to prepared casting, and I like the sorcerer list more than the cleric list (although I wish there was something akin to the NES FFI-style Red Wizard). To be honest, I like the Psion's casting style the best, but I hate the forced specialization, restricted spells, lack of published spells, and fragility. If they just got rid of the the barred spells rules and made a battle psion (or even wilder—I kinda like wild surge) variant, I probably would never leave it. As for what's the most powerful spellcaster class, I'm not going there.
Sareld 02-25-07, 05:49 PM	Wait...what? Isn't that the 7th level spell that lets you summon mundane centipede swarms and takes an entire round to cast? DOH! Creeping COLD! The 2nd level spell that lets you dish out insane amounts of cold damage. I keep mixing up spell names, sorry. Also, Im not too sure that it can be used with persistant spell anyway, so I guess that the maximum amount you can dish out is a mere 78d6 (fort half) points of damage with a greater extended creeping cold spell. Bugger.
LaserBear 02-25-07, 07:54 PM	For me it's the Cleric: Good Fort/Will, 3/4 BAB, proficiency with all armors and shields (other than tower), Divine Metamagic, and it leads into my favorite prestige class: the RSoP.
Zoycitenega 02-26-07, 01:19 AM	For me it's the Warmage/SpellWarp Sniper Combo; Spontaneos casting, armored mage, D6 HD, and if you channel your spell into a ray, there is no save. My favorite character was a Pixie/Warmage/SpellWarp Sniper. She had AC in the 50s(level 16), and could fly above the battle to get a good aim.
Prator_the_Legendary 02-26-07, 05:47 PM	Binders all the way, baby! Oh, sure, I know they can't technically cast spells, but there's nothing else they can't do. 1. Unlimited nuking power, especially if you arrange it so you can alternate vestige attack powers during your recharge periods between attacks. 2. Pretty good base stats. 3. Can transform into a rogue/assasin by binding the right vestiges. 4. Can transform into a fighter by binding the right vestiges. 5. Can imbue themselves with energy immunities by binding the right vestiges. 6. Only need a few ranks in Knowledge: Planes, Religion, and/or Arcana, and shoplift once in order to use any vestige at all. 7. Become immune to fear at lvl 6, can make unlimited will save at lvl 9, become immune to negative energy and level drain at lvl 16, and become completely immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities at 19. The only weakness they really have is a notable inability to heal themselves effectively. Frankly, pretty much all arcane casters have that problem, and Binders get better hit dice.
DarkRhystar 02-27-07, 02:42 AM	1. Unlimited nuking power, especially if you arrange it so you can alternate vestige attack powers during your recharge periods between attacks. 2. Pretty good base stats. 3. Can transform into a rogue/assasin by binding the right vestiges. 4. Can transform into a fighter by binding the right vestiges. 5. Can imbue themselves with energy immunities by binding the right vestiges. 6. Only need a few ranks in Knowledge: Planes, Religion, and/or Arcana, and shoplift once in order to use any vestige at all. 7. Become immune to fear at lvl 6, can make unlimited will save at lvl 9, become immune to negative energy and level drain at lvl 16, and become completely immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities at 19. Binders are awesome as "Jack of all Trades" characters and awesome in the sense of "today I fight, tomorrow I sneak, the day after I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down." The problem is that they can't pull it all off at the same time and they're usually kind of inferior to someone specializing in doing one thing.
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 11:38 AM	Very true. They're rather like bards, in that respect. BUT, unlike bards, they can change their specialization more or less at will. As such, they're not subject to any of the major weaknesses of more standard casting and fighting classes. The only thing they miss out on is healing powers and (arguably) skill points. And they CAN pull it all off at the same time, once they're at a high enough level. Remember, a lvl 20 binder can summon 4 (or was it 5?) vestiges all at once, and their powers stack. So, with the right bindings, you can get infinitely reusable 20d6 tornado breath (Orthos), +4 heavy fortification full plate (Savnok), d20 damage for unarmed attacks (Monk vestige, name forgotten), and a sneak attack (Several vestiges give this, take your pick) all at once.
NeoTiamat 02-27-07, 12:32 PM	I'd say that Druids are best, although I think Wizards are a close second. They get a lot of very powerful spells, so I like.
kelvinaw273 02-27-07, 12:53 PM	In terms of numbers and powers of spells, all the main casters are much of a muchness, really. Arcane casters get some slightly more powerful spells, but divine casters get better hp, armour, powers etc. The overall most powerful casting class are druids, pretty much without exception. But if what you want to do is dish out reall whup-ass with spells, a well-focussed wizard or sorcerer has the edge.
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 01:19 PM	Hmmm... This gives me an idea. In theory, all classes are equal. Therefore, there's ways for any given class to bypass or counter the abilities of any other class. Hmmm... I wonder what would happen if you made the casting classes duel eachother, with all participants given full knowledge of what their enemies are capable of... Ex. My binder could trounce the druidic magic of Creeping Cold by Binding Acererak, who grants cold immunity. The druid counters by shapeshifting into something fierce and attacking head on. Binder binds Savnok (Armor calling) and Eligor (Elemental attacks + natural armor) and does likewise. Druid heals. Binder uses Halphax's Imprisonment power. And so it goes indefinitely. Maybe I could start a seperate thread for that...
Lord_Tirian 02-27-07, 01:25 PM	The overall most powerful casting class are druids, pretty much without exception. But if what you want to do is dish out reall whup-ass with spells, a well-focussed wizard or sorcerer has the edge. True. A druid is universal... look at it that way: A rogue's base attack. Spells like a wizard -1 caster level. Can use healing wands. Can fix his own stats (by wildshape). Has a companion that is at low levels almost as good as a fighter. Gains some nifty abilities. ________________________ That's a load of goodness - the druid has almost no standard situation where he cannot perform well. The wizard, well, the wizard has more access to the *big* spells. With Scribe Scroll, metamagic, and preparation time (for stuff like Contingency and scrollcrafting), he will have the perfect counter for everything that can happen, but he needs time.
Novabomb 02-27-07, 01:46 PM	Hmmm... This gives me an idea. In theory, all classes are equal. Therefore, there's ways for any given class to bypass or counter the abilities of any other class. Hmmm... I wonder what would happen if you made the casting classes duel eachother, with all participants given full knowledge of what their enemies are capable of... Ex. My binder could trounce the druidic magic of Creeping Cold by Binding Acererak, who grants cold immunity. The druid counters by shapeshifting into something fierce and attacking head on. Binder binds Savnok (Armor calling) and Eligor (Elemental attacks + natural armor) and does likewise. Druid heals. Binder uses Halphax's Imprisonment power. And so it goes indefinitely. Maybe I could start a seperate thread for that... Um where did you get that idea? ALL classes are not created equal, not even close. cough fighter cough sorcerer cough.... I guess you have never heard of the energy substitution feat. And your strategy has many other holes in it...i reccommend you do start that thread. Unfortunately the OP's question is a bit open ended. Personally I would go with IotSV..for great survivability, and debuff(literally)
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 02:13 PM	I didn't say they were equal. I said they were THEORETICALLY equal. And I'm aware that my strategy has holes. It's just an example, something you might actually see in real life from real people who don't do everything flawlessly. Take it from someone who has seen many fighters get nuked, many sorcerers get axed, many druids just plain get shredded by all sorts of things, and many binders who lose all their vestiges and powers with a couple spells and THEN get shredded, every class has flaws. Flaws that other classes seem very much able to exploit. Maybe not all classes are exactly equal, but everyone has some weakness that someone else can strike at. Bad fortitude saves. Lack of abilitity diversity. Absence of both healing power and toughness. Lack of melee skill. Lack of ranged skill. Poor armor class. All of these things can have a direct relationship to character death. With all that in mind, Class Equality doesn't sound so far-fetched.
Soluphobe 02-27-07, 02:28 PM	I may be a Complete Arcane fanatic, but I seriously think that Warmage is best for pure casting. In battle, that is. Yes, his list is limited, but it's a lot bigger than the Sorcerer's and there's none of those 'Oops, I forgot to prepare fireball,' moments that makes us love/hate the wizard. And to top it off, you get some free metamagic feats! Of course, this is balanced by the fact that you can only make things blow up. Oh, well. I'm assuming the Artificer doesn't count for this, so I'll pick the Warlock for all around casting greatness. (I'm not sure whether the OP specified only spellcasting as the criteria) Imbue Item + Extract Demonic Essence (FC1) is one of the best combinations in the game, and there isn't really a difference between the guy who casts fireball and the guy who just shoots it from a wand. Also, just because no one else has: :mage::mage::mage::mage::mage:
DM_V2 02-27-07, 04:47 PM	Let me just say the Op should have been more specific. Clerics are the best at helping out the party, because they have easy acsess to healing spells, and buffs. Druids are pretty versitile, but I dont like them because they don't really exel at anything. Wizards trounce, annihilate, and frankly beat the crap out of ANY other casting class in a duel situation. I don't know why every one seems to think that druids are the best. Id' put them just above bards and just below sorcerors. Heres how I justify this: A wizard can do any thing they can at higher levels and much more. 1.Wildshape polymorph, or polymorph any object. 2.Healing Polymorph heals to full health, or failing that you could planeshift to the positive energy plane. 3.Base attack, and hitpoins There are to many spells to list that will take care of this problem. 4.Animal companion Summon monster, charm monster, dominate, or my personal favorite Reprogram memory. 5.Creeping Cold damage try shrinking 2000+lb ball of steel with shrink item. then use telekinesis to hurl this now tiny and light ball into an enemy, the ball will expand on impact thus causing 80d6 or more damage instantly. And more? The wizard has many more spells, and some truly unbeatable prestige class options such as the aformentioned Initiate of the seven fold veil (complete arcane).
Novabomb 02-27-07, 07:33 PM	Let me just say the Op should have been more specific. Clerics are the best at helping out the party, because they have easy acsess to healing spells, and buffs. Druids are pretty versitile, but I dont like them because they don't really exel at anything. Wizards trounce, annihilate, and frankly beat the crap out of ANY other casting class in a duel situation. I don't know why every one seems to think that druids are the best. Id' put them just above bards and just below sorcerors. Heres how I justify this: A wizard can do any thing they can at higher levels and much more. 1.Wildshape polymorph, or polymorph any object. 2.Healing Polymorph heals to full health, or failing that you could planeshift to the positive energy plane. 3.Base attack, and hitpoins There are to many spells to list that will take care of this problem. 4.Animal companion Summon monster, charm monster, dominate, or my personal favorite Reprogram memory. 5.Creeping Cold damage try shrinking 2000+lb ball of steel with shrink item. then use telekinesis to hurl this now tiny and light ball into an enemy, the ball will expand on impact thus causing 80d6 or more damage instantly. And more? The wizard has many more spells, and some truly unbeatable prestige class options such as the aformentioned Initiate of the seven fold veil (complete arcane). Polymorph does not heal you, and takes time and spellslots. Planeshift also takes time, you have to make saves while on the positive energy plane. Druid will have better health, this is unavavoidable. Summoning takes time ans spellslots. Wizards are better at killing things with spells. All in all, to have the durability a druid has will cost the wizard a bunch of spellslots where it costs the druid none. Spellslots that would be better dedicated to killing things.
KurenaiYami 02-28-07, 03:13 AM	What spellcasters are the best, in your opinion. It can be anything; Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock, Spell Thief, Cleric, Favored Soul...the list goes on. What do you think is the overall BEST spellcaster, and why? Oooh..."best," eh? That's broad enough for me to assert opinion. I'm a big fan of Shadowcasters, but that's really more of a flavor thing than mechanical superiority. Depending on your definition of "Spellcaster," I'd probably say the things from the Tome of Battle. Most familiar with the system I believe would agree when I say it's closer to a form of magic than a "martial" class. Either way, fun stuff.
SunTzuWarmaster 02-28-07, 07:08 AM	"Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead." from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm Heals like crap, but it heals. Summoning takes spell slots is a fairly generic statement that is always true... This is why you polymorph the barbarian into a raging pyrohydra... and then cast greater invisibility. I say nothing beats a well-prepared specialist wizard. They are able to cast spella all day without running out at around level 11. Once longevity is no longer an issue, it is simply a matter of which spells.
runestar 02-28-07, 08:59 AM	All classes are equal. Some are just more equal than others...;)
Zoycitenega 02-28-07, 09:59 AM	I may be a Complete Arcane fanatic, but I seriously think that Warmage is best for pure casting. In battle, that is. Yes, his list is limited, but it's a lot bigger than the Sorcerer's and there's none of those 'Oops, I forgot to prepare fireball,' moments that makes us love/hate the wizard. And to top it off, you get some free metamagic feats! Of course, this is balanced by the fact that you can only make things blow up. Oh, well. Making things blow up is not the only thing you can do! You can also bludgeon them with hail, have mighty fists and beat them up, crispify them with a ray - Warmages are great at dealing all kinds of damage!
Hellstormz 02-28-07, 12:43 PM	Best Spell caster? A live one....hehe. My preference is Wizard. Being able to prepare for most anything is nice, and the bonus feats for metamagic/crafting/spell mastery are nice. But any spell caster can be powerful, just depends on how you play your character and how prepared you are to battle.
DM_V2 02-28-07, 05:59 PM	No offense novabomb but, well you really didn't bother to counter many of my arguments. as for the ones you did decide to counter. Like SunTzuWarmaster said polymorph does heal, as well as being an amazing combat spell. A normal positive energy plane site requires a DC 15 fortitude save to resist being blinded for 10 rounds. OH NO TEN ROUNDS BLINDED THAT I'LL PROBABLY SPEND HEALING AND SAFE FROM ENEMYS(IF I fail the easy fortitude save).you only die if your hit poinst are already full and you continue to stay in the positive energy plane. Another perk is that you are safe from non plane-shifting enemys while you heal, and cast all sorts of defensive buffs. Your argument for the fact that my spells will take alot of spell slots is moot because at high levels a wizard has ALOT of spell slots that he has nothing better to do with. Yes summoning takes one round :weep: :rolleyes:, but it's not even my favorite form of companion recruiting. I accidentaly called it reprogram memory in my original post, but its actually called programed amnesia(complete arcane 118). With enough patience a high level wizard can get a couple balor bodyguards that think their names are herbet, bob, and sillywussypants, who will think you are their loving and benevolent father(I'm not even exagerating.). I'm pretty sure three balors could eat any animal companion, and his druid master for breakfest. Oh and as for a druids FREE extra health and base attack, it dosn't matter against a wizard who can easily get others to do his dirty work or kill with one spell. Health dosn't even matter if you cant hit the wizard. The initiate of the seven fold viel( complete arcane 44) is pretty much unable to be hit without terrible repercussions for the attacker.