Best way to sneak attack?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best way to sneak attack?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Faellan
01-24-05, 03:33 PM What is the best way for my thief to make a sneak attack once the fighting has started?? For instance, can I hide again, to deny someone their Dex bonus? I know about flanking, and such, I was wondering mostly what the rules are about hiding after everyone has taken their turn in Init order.
cambric
01-24-05, 03:41 PM Yes, you can try to hide again, but if someone is watching you, you can't...and my exerience of playing a rogue for over 20 years is this: You sneak attack and unless you flat out kill the creature...you will be WATCHED!!

If you have a good dm, that creature, if it can speak, that got SA, will yell: "HEY, HE'S A THIEF" or something to that effect...with our group, casters get taken down first...clerics second...thieves third. BUT, if one does get in and SA's, all focus goes to the thief, and that usually means they're dead shortly afterwards.

Best situation is in a dungeon type setting...get set up, wait for your fighter to engage the creature and let him get hit a few times...then strike...fade back into the shadows. That is ideal...but not too likely, at least not from my dm! :mad:

Cam
Draco Strang
01-24-05, 03:47 PM FLANKING!!!!!

As a rogue, you can get off sneak attacks when you and another member of your party flank.

Hopefully you have a monk or ranger buddy to team up with, and they can soak up some hits and provide you with that +2 to hit, and you'll be able to deal that sneak attack damage.

If you pair up with a fighter even, it's not too bad. I would tend to discourage it though as fighters are good at dishing damage all on their own, wheras rogues and the secondary combatants (rangers, clerics, bards, monks) have no problem accepting a little assistance from you, and even helping to make your abilities shine.

Lemme tell you, a rogue and monk working in conjunction will have you rocking the party 8 days a week.
Aliquid
01-24-05, 04:12 PM You can hide after the battle has started, and after they have seen you... but it isn't easy.

The main thing you have to do is a Bluff roll. Basically the concept is, your character says "Hey look over there!", the bad guy looks, and you hide while he is distracted. I can't remember what the DC is.... but it isn't overly easy.

Another reason to have a good bluff... is by using it for feinting. Feinting is also a bluff role. The basic concept behind it, is that you fake an attack in one direction, the opponent goes to block this fake attack, and then you suddenly change direction and attack them somewhere else. If you pull this off, you get a sneak attack bonus. (read about it under the Bluff skill in the players handbook).

Hope this helps.
Nom
01-24-05, 10:18 PM The other way to hide is total cover (or total concealment). Retreating behind a tree will often allow you to re-take your hide check. Some DM judgement is required - there's a difference between standing behind the only tree in the field and sneaking from tree to tree.
allenchan
01-24-05, 10:40 PM yea, seriously, why dont you just flank? mutliple SAs a round
ck2001wendt
01-24-05, 11:38 PM Three ways we do it in my campaigns:

1. Hit yourself with a Wand of Invisibility (or cast it, or Blink, or whatever). Wait a round. Whip out your crossbow and do a full attack. You turn visible. Repeat.

2. Go the Spring Attack route. Be 15 ft away from an opponent your friend is attacking. On your turn jump in, attack from your flanking position and jump out.

3. Go the TWF route. Wait for your friends to go after someone, then get in there 5 ft from your opponent and shoot them with ranged attacks. Next round, 5ft move, pull your TWs and SA the heck out of a flanked target.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable
01-25-05, 12:59 AM Tripped foes are your best friends. They are like candy.

With a few archery feats, you can be very dangerous. Ranged trip is nothing to be laughed at :)

You can also use a ranged weapon and have a fighter trip foes for you.

Grappling can also work, but it's VERY risky.

Take improved ini. The first flatfooted round is a god-send to rogues.
DrMorganes
01-25-05, 02:13 AM there's a difference between standing behind the only tree in the field and sneaking from tree to tree.
Rules for sneaking from tree to tree (or between other areas of cover) are presented in Complete Adventurer, by the way. If you're playing a rogue of any sort, I STRONGLY encourage you to buy this book.

As far as hiding after the battle has started: If memory serves, you take a whopping -20 to your Hide Check unless you somehow manage to get yourself behind total cover. Flanking is a far better option in most instances. Ranged is better still, but effective use requires burning at least two feats (for Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot). Recall that ranged attacks vs flanked opponents do not get the attack bonus and you get whapped with that pesky -4 attack penalty for firing at an engaged opponent. Precise Shot negates that penalty and Point Blank Shot gets you +1 to hit and damage when within 30' (which you need to be for Sneak Attack damage).
paradoxmage
01-25-05, 03:00 AM Party with a Monk/grapple Fighter. The Grab and Stab meathod works great. The monk grapples, you stab. Just that simple.
Run from anything huge or bigger.
SiruisBlack
01-25-05, 09:01 AM I would go the TWF route and bone up on Improved Feint. When you combine hiding, feinting and flanking, you get a lot of SA chances plus a high DEX is crucial. I believe Bluffing is a Charisma based skill.
Asche
01-25-05, 10:08 AM While on the subject, how often can you successfully feint against the same opponent in a fight ?

I seem to recall only once, cause they dont fall for it again this fight.
Kelyme
01-25-05, 12:06 PM I think if they are stupid enough not to be able to sense your motive then you can feint multiple times.

Though if you take the feat flick of the wrist you can only do it to an opponent once. Maybe you are thinking of that.
lurch_E_bean
01-25-05, 01:48 PM While on the subject, how often can you successfully feint against the same opponent in a fight ?

I seem to recall only once, cause they dont fall for it again this fight.
I believe you can do it as many times as you want in a fight. Remember that Feinting is a standard action, though. If you have Improved Feint, it becomes a move action. And if you have 5 levels of Invisible Blade, then it's a free action, and the only way you could possibly feint multiple times in one round.

Flanking is the easiest way to Sneak Attack, but the most effective (no ways that I can think of to counter it) is to immobilize your opponent through grappling (somebody else grappling it that is), Hold Monster spells, etc.
Arthur Dayne
01-25-05, 02:44 PM For some reason the idea of attacking multiple times in a round with a sneak attack ever even occured to me. I always kind of thought that once you SA'ed them they would face you and I always thought of that as a free action.

Am I wrong?
Cardinal Teplin
01-25-05, 03:19 PM Yes, you're wrong on that one. The old 2nd ed backstab ability worked that way, but sneak attack is much more generous.

You sneak attack any time you flank, or they lose their dex modifier (even if they never had one). You flank, and all your attacks are sneak attacks. They are grappled and you aren't? All your attacks are sneak attack. You are invisible? Your first attack is a sneak attack, and then you become visible again. (greater invisiblity is VERY useful here - try and get a spellcaster to get it for you). You win initiative at the start of a fight? They are flat footed, and all your attacks are sneak attacks.

However, make sure you are 30feet or less from your target, and remember that many kinds of creature can't be sneak attacked at all, including plants, undead, oozes, constructs, and so on.

Flanking is obviously the easiest way to get sneak attack. If the rest of the party aren't cooperative, you could always get a trained attack dog or something to flank with you. The big problem with flanking is that, in almost any combat, a rogue is going to be the easiest and least tough target for enemy attacks. It's actually quite difficult to get multiple attacks off on an enemy without giving him a chance to do the same and while a fighter can take that kind of punishment, you probably can't.

For this reason my rogue usually carries around a loaded crossbow. At the start of the combat anyone who goes after you is flatfooted, and can be sneak attacked with that. Then your party fighters charge in, and then next round you can try and join them if you can find a flank. But you don't want to be the first one into the fight.

Alternatively you could just get an eversmoking bottle, create a cloud of smoke and hide under cover of that. When the smoke clears, you're gone. Then sneak attack as before.
Faellan
01-25-05, 11:07 PM All good stuff. Thanks for all your help.
clarkvalentine
01-25-05, 11:09 PM Feinting and flanking are my two favorites. They work with the best reliability, in my experience.
Loopy
01-26-05, 01:04 AM Side note.....

+20, I belive is the bonus the opponent has to spot check to notice someone who just attacked them... and that is assuming there is something nearby for the Rogue to hide in or around.
green_yawgmoth
01-26-05, 02:25 AM This is why I like my warlock/rogue. Retributive (improved+) Invisibility and a SA with EB. Really fun when you have quicken spell-like ability, maybe maximize/empower it too. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Iver Gearsham
01-26-05, 06:46 PM Illusions that fill an area of combate are perfect for sa, blind sight is a must for sneaking in the dark and geting an sa. on loner missions an amulate of adaption and an ever smoking bottle with blind sight is a killer.
All your foes will need to make fort save dc 15 every rnd and the dc increases by 1 for every round they remain in the smoke and if they fail two rounds they choke for 1d6 subdual spend the round choking and coughing.
Your foes get a 20% miss chance in the smoke from concelment allowing you to hide as you need.
MJ the Prophet
01-26-05, 06:57 PM If you're willing to go into various other classes, there's also Hide in Plain Sight. Useful for getting sneak attacks, and for getting away as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Faellan 01-24-05, 03:33 PM	What is the best way for my thief to make a sneak attack once the fighting has started?? For instance, can I hide again, to deny someone their Dex bonus? I know about flanking, and such, I was wondering mostly what the rules are about hiding after everyone has taken their turn in Init order.
cambric 01-24-05, 03:41 PM	Yes, you can try to hide again, but if someone is watching you, you can't...and my exerience of playing a rogue for over 20 years is this: You sneak attack and unless you flat out kill the creature...you will be WATCHED!! If you have a good dm, that creature, if it can speak, that got SA, will yell: "HEY, HE'S A THIEF" or something to that effect...with our group, casters get taken down first...clerics second...thieves third. BUT, if one does get in and SA's, all focus goes to the thief, and that usually means they're dead shortly afterwards. Best situation is in a dungeon type setting...get set up, wait for your fighter to engage the creature and let him get hit a few times...then strike...fade back into the shadows. That is ideal...but not too likely, at least not from my dm! :mad: Cam
Draco Strang 01-24-05, 03:47 PM	FLANKING!!!!! As a rogue, you can get off sneak attacks when you and another member of your party flank. Hopefully you have a monk or ranger buddy to team up with, and they can soak up some hits and provide you with that +2 to hit, and you'll be able to deal that sneak attack damage. If you pair up with a fighter even, it's not too bad. I would tend to discourage it though as fighters are good at dishing damage all on their own, wheras rogues and the secondary combatants (rangers, clerics, bards, monks) have no problem accepting a little assistance from you, and even helping to make your abilities shine. Lemme tell you, a rogue and monk working in conjunction will have you rocking the party 8 days a week.
Aliquid 01-24-05, 04:12 PM	You can hide after the battle has started, and after they have seen you... but it isn't easy. The main thing you have to do is a Bluff roll. Basically the concept is, your character says "Hey look over there!", the bad guy looks, and you hide while he is distracted. I can't remember what the DC is.... but it isn't overly easy. Another reason to have a good bluff... is by using it for feinting. Feinting is also a bluff role. The basic concept behind it, is that you fake an attack in one direction, the opponent goes to block this fake attack, and then you suddenly change direction and attack them somewhere else. If you pull this off, you get a sneak attack bonus. (read about it under the Bluff skill in the players handbook). Hope this helps.
Nom 01-24-05, 10:18 PM	The other way to hide is total cover (or total concealment). Retreating behind a tree will often allow you to re-take your hide check. Some DM judgement is required - there's a difference between standing behind the only tree in the field and sneaking from tree to tree.
allenchan 01-24-05, 10:40 PM	yea, seriously, why dont you just flank? mutliple SAs a round
ck2001wendt 01-24-05, 11:38 PM	Three ways we do it in my campaigns: 1. Hit yourself with a Wand of Invisibility (or cast it, or Blink, or whatever). Wait a round. Whip out your crossbow and do a full attack. You turn visible. Repeat. 2. Go the Spring Attack route. Be 15 ft away from an opponent your friend is attacking. On your turn jump in, attack from your flanking position and jump out. 3. Go the TWF route. Wait for your friends to go after someone, then get in there 5 ft from your opponent and shoot them with ranged attacks. Next round, 5ft move, pull your TWs and SA the heck out of a flanked target.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 01-25-05, 12:59 AM	Tripped foes are your best friends. They are like candy. With a few archery feats, you can be very dangerous. Ranged trip is nothing to be laughed at :) You can also use a ranged weapon and have a fighter trip foes for you. Grappling can also work, but it's VERY risky. Take improved ini. The first flatfooted round is a god-send to rogues.
DrMorganes 01-25-05, 02:13 AM	there's a difference between standing behind the only tree in the field and sneaking from tree to tree. Rules for sneaking from tree to tree (or between other areas of cover) are presented in Complete Adventurer, by the way. If you're playing a rogue of any sort, I STRONGLY encourage you to buy this book. As far as hiding after the battle has started: If memory serves, you take a whopping -20 to your Hide Check unless you somehow manage to get yourself behind total cover. Flanking is a far better option in most instances. Ranged is better still, but effective use requires burning at least two feats (for Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot). Recall that ranged attacks vs flanked opponents do not get the attack bonus and you get whapped with that pesky -4 attack penalty for firing at an engaged opponent. Precise Shot negates that penalty and Point Blank Shot gets you +1 to hit and damage when within 30' (which you need to be for Sneak Attack damage).
paradoxmage 01-25-05, 03:00 AM	Party with a Monk/grapple Fighter. The Grab and Stab meathod works great. The monk grapples, you stab. Just that simple. Run from anything huge or bigger.
SiruisBlack 01-25-05, 09:01 AM	I would go the TWF route and bone up on Improved Feint. When you combine hiding, feinting and flanking, you get a lot of SA chances plus a high DEX is crucial. I believe Bluffing is a Charisma based skill.
Asche 01-25-05, 10:08 AM	While on the subject, how often can you successfully feint against the same opponent in a fight ? I seem to recall only once, cause they dont fall for it again this fight.
Kelyme 01-25-05, 12:06 PM	I think if they are stupid enough not to be able to sense your motive then you can feint multiple times. Though if you take the feat flick of the wrist you can only do it to an opponent once. Maybe you are thinking of that.
lurch_E_bean 01-25-05, 01:48 PM	While on the subject, how often can you successfully feint against the same opponent in a fight ? I seem to recall only once, cause they dont fall for it again this fight. I believe you can do it as many times as you want in a fight. Remember that Feinting is a standard action, though. If you have Improved Feint, it becomes a move action. And if you have 5 levels of Invisible Blade, then it's a free action, and the only way you could possibly feint multiple times in one round. Flanking is the easiest way to Sneak Attack, but the most effective (no ways that I can think of to counter it) is to immobilize your opponent through grappling (somebody else grappling it that is), Hold Monster spells, etc.
Arthur Dayne 01-25-05, 02:44 PM	For some reason the idea of attacking multiple times in a round with a sneak attack ever even occured to me. I always kind of thought that once you SA'ed them they would face you and I always thought of that as a free action. Am I wrong?
Cardinal Teplin 01-25-05, 03:19 PM	Yes, you're wrong on that one. The old 2nd ed backstab ability worked that way, but sneak attack is much more generous. You sneak attack any time you flank, or they lose their dex modifier (even if they never had one). You flank, and all your attacks are sneak attacks. They are grappled and you aren't? All your attacks are sneak attack. You are invisible? Your first attack is a sneak attack, and then you become visible again. (greater invisiblity is VERY useful here - try and get a spellcaster to get it for you). You win initiative at the start of a fight? They are flat footed, and all your attacks are sneak attacks. However, make sure you are 30feet or less from your target, and remember that many kinds of creature can't be sneak attacked at all, including plants, undead, oozes, constructs, and so on. Flanking is obviously the easiest way to get sneak attack. If the rest of the party aren't cooperative, you could always get a trained attack dog or something to flank with you. The big problem with flanking is that, in almost any combat, a rogue is going to be the easiest and least tough target for enemy attacks. It's actually quite difficult to get multiple attacks off on an enemy without giving him a chance to do the same and while a fighter can take that kind of punishment, you probably can't. For this reason my rogue usually carries around a loaded crossbow. At the start of the combat anyone who goes after you is flatfooted, and can be sneak attacked with that. Then your party fighters charge in, and then next round you can try and join them if you can find a flank. But you don't want to be the first one into the fight. Alternatively you could just get an eversmoking bottle, create a cloud of smoke and hide under cover of that. When the smoke clears, you're gone. Then sneak attack as before.
Faellan 01-25-05, 11:07 PM	All good stuff. Thanks for all your help.
clarkvalentine 01-25-05, 11:09 PM	Feinting and flanking are my two favorites. They work with the best reliability, in my experience.
Loopy 01-26-05, 01:04 AM	Side note..... +20, I belive is the bonus the opponent has to spot check to notice someone who just attacked them... and that is assuming there is something nearby for the Rogue to hide in or around.
green_yawgmoth 01-26-05, 02:25 AM	This is why I like my warlock/rogue. Retributive (improved+) Invisibility and a SA with EB. Really fun when you have quicken spell-like ability, maybe maximize/empower it too. :D http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Iver Gearsham 01-26-05, 06:46 PM	Illusions that fill an area of combate are perfect for sa, blind sight is a must for sneaking in the dark and geting an sa. on loner missions an amulate of adaption and an ever smoking bottle with blind sight is a killer. All your foes will need to make fort save dc 15 every rnd and the dc increases by 1 for every round they remain in the smoke and if they fail two rounds they choke for 1d6 subdual spend the round choking and coughing. Your foes get a 20% miss chance in the smoke from concelment allowing you to hide as you need.
MJ the Prophet 01-26-05, 06:57 PM	If you're willing to go into various other classes, there's also Hide in Plain Sight. Useful for getting sneak attacks, and for getting away as well.