Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kazabubuu 09-03-04, 12:11 PM	hi all, i'm playing with a party of 4 players plus dm. i'v known d&d since i was 8 but only now i'v learned to play it well (with good roll playing). and with this party that amazingly kept playing while all other parties i'v been in stopped playing around lvl 5 , we have now reached lvl 9. And thus we are starting to encounter more and more powerfull undead. our DM is now running "Night Fang Spire". and we are found almost helpless when dealing with undead , each combat is really hard. I mean either u are lvl drained , either u are ability drained. My party consists of cleric,fighter,wizard and a bard. In one room we were suprised by shadows that hid in coffins. in another room we guessed there are shadows in coffins too but we couldnt do much except enter the room and let them come (couldnt suprise them). In another room we were almost killed by 6 vampire spawns, they have dominated the fighter and wizard (bad dice), used magic circle aginst evil in another battle. and we ended up fighting 2 lvl 9 chars plus the other 6 vampire spawns. Are there better ways when dealling with undead????? :confused: I'll apriciate any help.
Darrett 09-03-04, 12:21 PM	Make sure your Cleric is using Turn Undead. The Bard should load up on Party Buffing Spells, (Magic Circles, Bull's Strength) perhaps Summon Monster 2 in order to get some meat shields out there for you. Your Cleric should have Detect Undead. That'll help you know when you're getting near some enemies, and get yourself combat ready. Also look into Consecrate, Lesser Restoration or Restoration, some Healing, and Dispel Evil. The Cleric's really going to be your powerhouse in a fight with the undead. The Bard will be a support caster (As he usually is), the Rogue's going to be of less use thanks to the lack of sneak attacks, but can still give the Fighter some flanking bonuses. Just remember hat the best way to take down Undead is to not let them get into a boxing match with you. Keep away from them as long as you can, casting heal spells on them if you've got an abundance. (Our Cleric is usually specialized for Healing).
Kalanth 09-03-04, 12:21 PM	You have one of the best available weapons available to you in the cleric, just (aparently) a hint of better preperation. Obvioulsy, the cleric can attempt to turn the undead, and it is always possible at any lvl, but then there are also spells that they can use in their favor. And if you know you are going out to fight undead, just have the cleric invest some time/money and create a few holy water vials for each person, afterall, that is a splash effect weapon designed to harm the undead. If he/she has knowledge in religion, then he/she can do skill checks to learn of some of the weaknesses, based on the results of their check. Research is, by far, the best way to take on the undead, and this comes from a person that loves clerics, and loves undead as a DM.
kazabubuu 09-03-04, 01:58 PM	Thanks, i will look into it. detect undead is something i havnt thought off. i think it will really help.
BetaFlame 09-03-04, 02:56 PM	Anybody can use Holy Water.
Sildatorak 09-03-04, 04:48 PM	Magic Circle against evil and Protection from Evil will both help deal with domination. They can still dominate you, but they can't exert any control while you are protected against evil, so you'll act normally until the spell is up.
Phrennzy 09-04-04, 06:08 PM	Searing Light is a great undead blasting spell. You can get the wizard to craft a wand of it (with the Cleric's help). Also, circlet of blasting (which fires a searing light 1/day) would be nice for the non casters. Don't for get that Cure spells cause damage to undead. Of course, this might be left as a last resort, because not having healing later on blows. Maybe your wand of Cure Light WOunds. I concur with the Summon Monsters. They help set up flanks, divert monster attention (especially with mindless undead) and help issue damage. The cleric has access to Negative Energy Protection - he should slap that on the fighter when the vampires come, right after a protection from evil. Make sure that you are using tactics when fighting. If you walk into a room with 6 vampire spawn, back up into the hall where they can only come at you 2 at a time. Keep the Cleric & Fighter up front, with the Wizard and Bard providing support thru Buff Spells or ray attacks. If its a room full of shadows DONT retreat to the hallway. They'll be flanking you in no time. Instead, move back into a previous room if possible, or flood into this new room. This allows the Cleric to have mobility to keep the fighter healed. Holy water is a great idea.
krichaiushii 09-04-04, 09:29 PM	Sonic, force, fire and light affect most undead. Have the spellcasters look more closely at their available spells and prepare accordingly. For example, Magic Missile is simply WONDERFUL against incorporeal undead. If possible in your campaign, consider retreating to buy/craft a few undead-specific items/weapons. Ghost Touch, Disrupting, Holy, and Undead-Bane are good weapon choices, with wands/scrolls/miscellaneous magic of anti-undead spells (such as the earlier mentioned Searing Light) can help immensely. As 9th level casters, you potentially have access to the following spells: Arcane: 0 - Disrupt Undead 1 - Protection from Evil 2 - Command Undead 3 - Magic Circle v Evil, Daylight, Halt Undead Divine: 1 - Protection from Evil, Detect Undead, Hide from Undead, Bless Water 2 - Align Weapon (make them holy), Consecrate 3 - Daylight, Magic Circle v Evil, Searing Light 4 - Death Ward, Lesser Planar Ally (see if you can't call up something that can hurt undead). 5 - Dispel Evil, Disrupting Weapon, Hallow The above lists (from 3.5 PHB) don't even cover the more generally useful combat, defense, healing, and utility spells. Or any 3rd party stuff you might be using. The corporeal undead can be affected by slowing tactics, allowing you to stack the odds in your favor. Magical walls, webs, tanglefoot bags - for example - can split or delay enemy reinforcements. Even the oft-ignored Hold Portal or less-ignored Arcane Lock can be used in doorways to buy some time. Just some thoughts.
The Whackmiester 09-04-04, 10:36 PM	If I could just joke a bit here... The best way to get the undead is.... Bigby's All-Purpose Chainsaw!
Kalanth 09-04-04, 11:03 PM	If I could just joke a bit here... The best way to get the undead is.... Bigby's All-Purpose Chainsaw! Oh, I used one of those once. Very effective, killed all my party members too, but it did say to keep out of the reach of children.
frightened fighter 09-04-04, 11:44 PM	Hey it worked on "Evil Dead"
Kaminton 09-05-04, 01:02 AM	Unless you're low level and fighting similar-CR undead, turning is usually a waste of time. Undead HD (and turn resistance) go up faster than their CR, so if you're fighting undead opponents with CR suitable for your level, your chances of successfully turning them are quite low unless you have items that boost your effective cleric level when turning (such as the Rod of Authority from DoTF). I find turning most useful for getting rid of the fodder, so you can focus on the bigger undead without worrying about being surrounded by zombies or skeletons. My suggestions: Cleric: Prepare buffs and restoration spells - in particular, protection from evil/magic circle against evil, death ward, lesser/greater restoration. Try to have restoration in a scroll so that you can use it when energy drained (you lose your highest level spells). Wizard: lose the mind-affecting spells, and anything else that undead are immune to (unfortunately this throws out alot of Fort and Will save-or-die spells). Again you'll probably be better off with buffs, though damage spells become worth using because undead don't have bonus HP from constitution. Fighter: uh, invest in an undead-bane, holy, or disruption weapon? Bard: Well, nothing specific you can do. Most of your offensive magic is useless against undead, so I'd focus on buffing the party.
angryman 09-05-04, 07:24 AM	"There's only one way to deal with zombies- COMPLETE BODILY DISMEMBERMENT!" Use big weapons that do lots of flat damage (as opposed to a high crit range)- two handers are good. My personal choice is a greatsword, or a big flail.
ChaoticGod 09-05-04, 10:07 AM	Have the cleric make some Knowledge (Religon) checks. What does he/she know about the undead? Does the cleric know the weaknesses of vampires and vampire spawn? If so are you using holy symbols to hold them at bay? Do you know what kinds of undead cause 'whatever-drain' and which don't? In Nightfang Spire spells are a precious commodity. Don't waste them. Use them only in their best capacity. If you are facing corporeal undead that don't drain heavily then let the fighter beat them down. Those searing lights and Magic Missiles will be much more useful against incorporeal undead that physical strikes will be less effective against. Also ration Turn Undead. Don't waste it on weak undead that the fighter can destroy. You really need it to thin the ranks of the tough encounters. An Eagle's Splendor cast a the right time (before combat starts) can give you a little edge. The point is don't let the easy combats take up too much of your anti-undead resources. Let the fighter do his work. I also agree with carrying protective spells such as Protection from Evil (vs domination) and Negative Energy Drain. Nightfang Spire is all about ambushes. Detect Undead should give you a real edge. Remember to look at the ceiling before entering a room. Vampire Spawn (among other things) can Spider Climb. Have fun.
Phrennzy 09-05-04, 01:20 PM	:thumbsup:The point is don't let the easy combats take up too much of your anti-undead resources. Let the fighter do his work.:thumbsup:
Puck 09-05-04, 02:25 PM	I have never played in that campaing, but if you have the chance to go to town, take the time and xp to have your wizard and cleric craft a lot of the for-mentioned iteams. Try and get ahold of some tanglefoot bags and alcamists fire. Also, i find useing ranged weapons for the fighter work well. Grab a Glave or something at the smithy. That way your fighter doesnt have to get close to the weaker undead and less chance of takeing dmg that can easly be avoided. And if anything trys to get by him to attack the rest of the group the fighters attacks of opportunity go to 10' too. Just a though.
Ghorticus 09-06-04, 12:32 AM	As it so happens, I'm in a 4-player party that's going through the Heart of Nightfang Spire right now as well (adopted for use in our Forgotten Realms campaign). Our party consists of: 9th-level Human Cleric 8th-level Human Paladin 10th-level Sun Elf Fighter4/Cleric4/Rogue3 8th-level Drow Fighter1/Rogue1/Cleric4 We have not gotten very far yet (just started a couple sessions ago), but we've gone through the mooncalf, a few wights, a few vampires, a bunch of vampire spawn, some shadows, and a shadow mastiff. Here are some strategies that I employ with my 9th-level Cleric: Essential spells: - Light: It's always useful to have magic light down in the dark, without having to carry a torch. - Detect Magic: Definitely handy for finding magic items and magical traps. - Detect Evil: Excellent for finding undead, evil outsiders, and any other evil creatures. - Detect Unead: Similar to Detect Evil, but specifically against undead. I'd recommend Detect Evil over Detect Undead because it's more versatile though. - Divine Favor: At ninth level, you'd get +3 to attack and damage rolls which is very handy. - Gentle Repose: Keep one on hand, just in case something unfortunate happens to one of your fellow party members. - Hide From Undead: Self-explanatory, I think. :) - Magic Weapon: In the case that some of your party members are still carrying around masterwork weapons (like me). - Protection From Evil: Likely one of the most essential spells you could have in the Heart of Nightfang Spire, particularly useful against the vampires's Dominate Person ability. - Summon Monster I/II/III/IV/V: As was mentioned, they serve as good cannon fodder. - Align Weapon: I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess there are going to be some nasty evil outsiders down there. Having a good-aligned weapon would be a big advantage against such foes. - Consecrate/Hallow: I'd recommend spending the time to set-up a shelter for your party where you can retreat to and rest when things get tough. Hallow is obviously the more potent spell, but it depends if you're willing to spend the 5,000 (or more) GP in order to make it work. Consecrate is only a 2nd-level spell, and it'll last for 18-hours (2 hours per level) for a 9th-level cleric, which is more than enough time, I think. Just cast it once a day and you should be fine. - Eagle's Splendor: Excellent for boosting your Charisma for a little while, basically giving you a +2 to your Turn Undead checks and Turning Damage rolls for the duration of this spell. - Shield Other: Especially good if you're a tank, and can earn you the lifelong respect of your fellow party members. - Spiritual Weapon: Useful for attacking at range with a magic weapon. - Dispel Magic: God only knows you're likely to come across something that needs dispelling, such as a summoned creature, a magic ward, etc. Also very useful for counterspelling. - Glyph of Warding: Great to use as a trap, and to protect your base of operations within the spire. - Invisibility Purge: Very useful to have, just in case. - Magic Circle Against Evil: Probably one of your best defensive spells against the baddies in the spire, especially those damn vampires with their Dominate Person ability. - Searing Light: Awesome offvensive spell against the undead, especially vampires. Also harms non-undead creatures, but only for half damage. I'd use the majority of your third level spell slots on this spell and Magic Circle Against Evil. - Death Ward: Could be useful later on. No idea if there's going to be any save-or-die type effects, but it wouldn't hurt to have this spell on hand. - Dimensional Anchor: Very useful against incorporeal/ethereal/teleporting enemies. - Dismissal: Very nice spell against non-Undead, such as evil outsiders, shadows, etc. - Divine Power: Great if you want to go melee crazy once in a while. - Neutralize Poison: I'd keep one memorised just in case. - Restoration: Good against the Wight's level-drain, and ability damage. - Spell Immunity: Really handy spell against evil spellcasters. - Disrupting Weapon: Godly spell for vanquishing hordes of undead. Cast Divine Power and then this spell, and go nuts on mad killing spree. Best 5th-level spell against undead. - Flame Strike: great offensive, area-effect spell against all types of creatures (living and dead). - Raise Dead: Just in case the worst happens, use with Gentle Repose. - Righteous Might: Another combat ability boost, pretty nice. - Scrying: Could be useful later on. - Slay Living: Very useful, possible insta-kill against living creatures (i.e. not undead). - Spell Resistance: Good if you get into a Cleric duel or go up against a high-level caster. - True Seeing: Definitely a nice spell to have, just in case. And remember, mind influencing abilities such as Charm and Hold Person and the like are useless against undead, so don't waste spell-slots by memorisinig them. But the Cleric's most useful ability in this module, is of course Turn Undead. You should have 5 or 6 turn undead attempts per day. Vampires, Shadows, and the like are no match for your Turn Undead ability. Remember, you can't come within 10 ft. of a Turned creature or else the turn ends. While they are turned they either flee or suffer a -2 morale penalty to attack rolls, and they can not attack you in particular. Feel free to bombard it with ranged weapons, ray attacks, or just sit back and cast buff and healing spells on your fellow party members. Don't waste your Turn Undead attempts or high power spells like Searing Light on easy enemies; let your Fighter and Bard take them out. Talk to the wizard and memorise particular spells to cover any possible situation that could arise; don't both memorise the same thing if you'll only need one casting of it in the day or else that spell slot will go to waste. Bring lots of potions, and if you can try to get a Wand of Searing Light or something and give it to the Bard who is pretty much the weakest combat character in the group, so she can defend herself. Be quiet, move siliently regularly, and listen at doors before you enter. Check for traps, detect evil regularly, and retreat if things are going bad. Remember to use bludgeoning weapons against undead, because slashing and piercing weapons only deal half damage. Anyways, that's enough out of me. :D Good luck, and I hope you enjoy the adventure!
Asta Kask 09-06-04, 04:16 AM	Unless you're low level and fighting similar-CR undead, turning is usually a waste of time. Undead HD (and turn resistance) go up faster than their CR, so if you're fighting undead opponents with CR suitable for your level, your chances of successfully turning them are quite low unless you have items that boost your effective cleric level when turning (such as the Rod of Authority from DoTF). I find turning most useful for getting rid of the fodder, so you can focus on the bigger undead without worrying about being surrounded by zombies or skeletons. I'd see if you allow Complete Warrior. There's a feat there called Sacred Vengeance - spend a turning attempt as a free action, do +2d6 versus undead for one round. Cool feat.