Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MoltenDm 12-01-06, 06:06 PM	Hi all I wanted to share something sience it has brought moral issues to my group. The team has 6 players of level 2 each. We have 4 Heironeous followers, one Crusader, one Healer, one Paladin and my Cleric, the other two are neutral, a swordsage and a Wizard. Last session we where in a tower trying to stop a mad wizard from summoning a Demon, we killed the Bugbear guards and the Kobold minions and made our way up to the tower. Our Paladin stayed on the 1st floor cleaning up the mess (He had a soccer game and couldnt play..house rules) (The healer stayed in town sience he wasnt here either) Anyways, on to the top floor we found the wizard we were hired to stop he was in the middle of a spell wich I couldnt tell sience I rolled pretty low on the spellcraft check.. 0.K so before entering melee I noticed the Circle around the Demon and thought it was pretty strange that he didnt rip me to piezes he just stared at me while I confronted the wizard. My team mates were behind me, our wizard was near the stairs, I started talking to the mage and asked him to stop his ritual and come with us (Lawful).. He warned me to back off and to leave right now or else..my team mates started to losse it and our wizard fired a Magic Missile so negotiations dropped like that, next thing I know our Crusader charged and scored a good blow against the poor wizard, he countered using a web spell on us and lucky me I was the only one caught in it, he told us how stupid we were and he was pretty ******, then our crusader managed to score a crit and cut his left foot off, I was thinking damn we are screwed sience the barrier on the demon started to fade, the wizard crawled and teleported to god knows where and we were left to the demon´s mercy, he wasnt out yet so we had time to run like hell, the thing is that I was still caught in the net, the sword sage and wizard said you know what guys will wait downstairs..my fellow crusader didnt left me behind and was triying to cut thru the net by then my character and I were pretty upset as you can Imagine,I was yelling at them about why why didnt the let me talk some sense in to the wizard and why didnt they listen to me when I told them something is wrong..next thing I know the crusader says you know what good luck I dont have to listen to this and he left so I was in a tight spot..they went downstairs and the paladin (I asked the dm to put the paladin there so he could help me sience he was in fact there) he asked what happened to my cleric, the crusader said he is dead lets go and they all left the tower and went to the nearest town. Meanwhile I had only three chances left before the CR 11 demon escaped and I had to roll a 17 or above strenght check to do it..and by Heironeous grace I did on the 3rd roll and jumping out the window and almost killing myself, I survived. I managed to make it to our town and found my friends drinking and talking I was already pretty ****** at the crusader for leaving me behind and then the paladin and I found that he lied about me being dead... SO.................... Should we..? Go ahead and act lawfully ? How?? Or treat him as a traitor and heretic of Heironeous´ Church? One more thing the wizard was stoping the demon and the one who hired us knew he was good..he was evil.
TheChilliGod 12-01-06, 06:35 PM	What, so said in the PHB, does Heironeous teach his followers above all other things? Valor, honor, chivalry. Is running away from a battle while letting a nasty demon loose on the world called valor? Is leaving one's comrade and fellow worshipper to certain death in order to save one's own skin called honor? Is lying to one's other comrade about the fate of one's first comrade called chivalry? No, no and no. I say that you should both act lawfully and treat this guy as a heretic to the church, because at this point, both are simultaneously possible. Take him to a priest of your faith (or something like that), and give him proper justice for his actions (which may or may not be harsh; Heironeous is also about justice and the law, however). If he was a cleric and I was the DM, I'd take away his spellcasting ability and possibly note this event for an alignment change chaotic-ways as well. This kind of betrayal, especially in a primarily(?) LG party is certainly not acceptable in the party, IMO.
alecthemad 12-01-06, 06:58 PM	Valor is all wonderful until it gets you killed. Sometimes you need to run away and warn someone about the big demon. I don't think the player is a heretic, he is merely weak in his faith. Since he is not a paladin he should not lose anything. You said that he did attempt to save you but I am sure he was worried that he would be first on the list to have his bones broken by said demon. Quit complaining that they didn't do it your way and enjoy the game. On the plus side you can play on any guilt for leaving you behind.
MoltenDm 12-01-06, 07:16 PM	Thanks for the posts. Just wanted to point out that Indeed a crusader is as much of a zealot as a Paladin or at least is supposed to be so. And you forgot about the lying part thats probably the biggest problem..maybe we should get him to a local church but the thing is that we are trying to figure out how does a Paladin or Cleric in this situation react?? Its fairly obvious to think that in the heat of the moment the lets get him to justice after betrayal is not such a big idea.
Stoyrm 12-01-06, 07:31 PM	Valor, Honor etc. i Could play a character who had taken oaths of honor and valor and if i was standing alone in a hallway 3 demons charging against me, if i was hurt i'd try to get out of the fight or catch them of guard. There is a difference of being honorable by charging a scarse full of orcs dying a pittiful death, however dying against demon would be a pretty good death, being unatural and all. But if my friend was in between me and a migthy demon, even if i was a Neutral character, i would jump infront of it. Basicly because i love playing characters who take an oath to fight creatures to the death. Fun stuff, but i would say. The character who said you where dead, and left you to die is a traitor, his behaviour is definatly Chaotic Neutral/Evil.
blackjackg 12-01-06, 08:47 PM	Remember, discretion is the better part of valor. There is nothing dishonourable about fleeing a battle you can't win. There is, however, serious dishonour in running off and leaving your companion to die. Even more in subsequently covering up your cowardice. Bad crusader. Bad, bad crusader. How should you treat him? However you feel is approrpriate. It would be thoroughly lawful good to tell him "You abandoned me. Goodbye." and have the party leave him behind. Even lay in a guilt trip if you're so inclined. Same goes for the wizard. He might have been playing his alignment correctly, but he still proved himself an unreliable party member. If nothing else, I certainly wouldn't count on either of them again.
Dei 12-01-06, 09:18 PM	I agree with ChilliGod and Blackjack. His flight was nothing, what was wrong was leaving you to the demon knowing that in all likelihood you were going to die painfully at its hands. Lying to the paladin for the express purpose to stopping him going to your aid is also something that goes utterly against Heironian ideals. I would ask the DM to make healing (either just your or those of lawful good clerics in general) only heal half as much, or nothing at all to signify their disfavour until he completes an attonement (either via the spell or some other suitable medium). The others perhaps just a stern talking to and a bit of righteous fury about what being in a team means and how if you are to trust them you must know you can trust them to the end (afterall, if they'd all stayed to get you out you'd have been free long before the demon got out... probably). But the crusader definately fell short of expectations there and you'd be wholly within Heironius' realm to go "bible black preacher" on him, i.e. "REPENT SINNER!"
green_yawgmoth 12-01-06, 09:40 PM	First off, please PLEASE learn some grammar, syntax, and how to break your thoughts into separate sentences and paragraphs. God that was hard to read. Secondly, I think you all acted poorly. yes, they should have at least let you try to use diplomacy, but think about it: he's summoning a demon. I doubt he's going to have a change of heart at this late in the game. Also, there's a time and a place for everything; webbed in front of a demon ready to tear you to ribbons is not the time to lecture someone on their faith. All in all, you guys need to work on teamwork and planning more than passing the blame. There's enough to go around on this one, with seconds and leftovers for sandwiches the next day. One more thing: since. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/smileys/eng101.gif There's dictionary sites and MSWord to help you spell, use them. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Thubby 12-01-06, 10:22 PM	i think the crusader should recieve SOME form of punishment. his RECKLESS (he attacked rather than try to reason, which was clear the wizard was able and willing to do) behavior got someone else in trouble (web spell), not TERRIBLE in and of itself. in addition, this unleashed an overpowering enemy. even that alone wasnt gastly. the real kicker was, he wasnt willing to make up for his mistakes, a lawful good (even a LN might) character WOULD give his life to save the life of someone else, ESPECIALY if he put that life in danger. its like pushing someone into a grinder, you know they will die, and you caused it, even if you didnt kill them directly. the lie could be iether way. it could be like "charging orcs, one character stays behind, and you run" you dont KNOW he died, but its very likely, and so he was relaying what he believed happened. or this guy is a lying devious jerk, stopping any chance of your rescue, just to assure his escape.
MoltenDm 12-02-06, 12:05 AM	0.K all fine posts Thanks all Lets keep in mind that we are interested in opinions and not so much in grammar, so dont worry to much. One more thing to keep in mind, The crusader doesnt repent and lied becouse the paladin would otherwise learned his dark secret (leaving me behind) so he was covering his tracks. The dm took away his maneuvers I guess its possible sience the are from divine inspiration. He should face his Church and be dealt with as coldly as his actions. That is my righteous opinion..
Krusk 12-02-06, 03:17 AM	If i was the crusader id have left you as well. I spent a few rounds attempting to free you, and the entire time you were ungrateful and simply lectured me. After this point i realized i was completly unable to get you out, i said sorry im not dieing alongside you just because you were unlucky. Ill avenge you ect, but it does'nt do me or anyone anygood if i stand here and die with you. So he leaves. When he sees the palidin he knows "crap this guy is gonna dumbly go back up there and die" so he says " nope hes dead lets go" did the dm rolls bluff diplomacy at this point? would be useful to know. if not id have said something. So when you show up the palidin is like wait i thought you were dead, *turns to me* "why isnt he dead?" " well i couldnt get him out, looked like he was trapped going to die, i didnt want you to go needlessly die alongside him so i said he was dead. your welcome for attempting to save your life." Then I'd turn to you and say, glad you made it out. Then id be pretty unhappy with taking away my manuvers, as dietys were optional for my class anyway my manuvers come from me knowing how to fight through personal training. Not from a diety. But if your campaign is diffrent and thats not true id probably drop it.
MoltenDm 12-02-06, 03:25 AM	ohh comon justifing that sort of behavior doesnt make it right and I understand how you would have your reasons but the fact is that I mentioned that he didnt repent and he didnt have the intentions you mentioned as a L/G Cleric I woudl indeed asked him to run and save himself if such was the case but at the time he left the demon wasnt even a problem, he got mad out of me being upset and I think I had every right in being so.. He knows its pretty messed up and did not have alterior motives so we are trying to determine reactions and punishment here.
CriminalTruth 12-02-06, 08:46 AM	Running away is one thing, But leaving a friend for DEATH is an entirely other thing. Worse WORSE yet.. is the fact that the char was NOT dead and he told the REST of the party he WAS in fact dead. Now lying in and of itself is a chaotic act however it takes more then one act to cause an alignment shift. But the fact that he lied to the party about him being dead. that constitutes almost murder for a LG party. running away is an option. leaving you to die to save himself because he felt he had to? ok i MIGHT BUY that.. But to tell the rest of the group your dead and not allowing the rest of the group to even formulate a plan for to help you, or make their own choice to leave you behind.. CE ( exact opposite of alignment ) that would def. warrent some change toward either N or C or both. where would he end up on the alignment scale? thats for your DM to determine.. as far as a heritic? absolutly.
Aegeu 12-02-06, 09:28 PM	How was the crusader unable to get you out? He has Stone Dragon manuevers, he could have simply hammered you out of the webs. If he invested a feat in Desert Wind, he could have burnt the webs away. Granted, these both cost a bit of HP, but it's better than facing the demon. He could have gone the mundane route and used aid another to bust you out. Did this party not have any alchemist fire? Any torches? The crusader had quite a few ways to get you out of this, but running away should have been a last resort.
Mecha_Pope 12-02-06, 09:29 PM	Lg people do not leave thier friends to die because they got a well deserved tounge lashing. The op says that the guy said' "I don't have to listen to this" and then left. I'm sorry, but no way that he's any where near good or lawful anymore. If he had run to save himself, he would have droped to N CN or LE, his choice. However, in this case, he's LE, E, or CE. Normally one action does not constitute an alighnment shift, but the death of a companion is a very serious thing. Hell, if they would have talked with the wizard, the deamon would be bound and there would have been no problems, it turned out he was good after all. The wizard even cast a non-leathal spell rather than nuke the party, I mean this guy can bind cr 11 deamons and cast teleport, if he wanted the party dead, they'd be dead! So this charichter is Rash and impulsive in incredibly dagerous and important situations Leaves friends to die because they made him mad Dishonest to his other friends to cover his rear This is in no way good, lawful, or even neutral! These things all add up to Evil or Chaotic evil.
Hufish 12-03-06, 02:13 AM	The Crusader in question should be facing whatever sanctions any lawful good order would be able to impose for this behavior. In addition, the other two...yeah. Not Lawful, and not good, apparently. Also, they probably don't belong to any particular order. However, if I were in this party I'd look them dead in the eye and tell them that the next time they pull anything like that, they can just bugger off and you'll find new companions. Their behavior bore no resemblance to anything a paladin-esque character would countenance in his companions. If they do it again, I'd In Character tell them to bugger off and walk away. The downside to this is that you'd have to create another character, unless they just disappeared or something. But, if that's what it takes to play your character accurately, then that's what it takes.
Newpaintbrush 12-03-06, 03:18 AM	No. Running away and lying about a buddy's death is NOT sufficient reason to force an alignment shift. Repeated actions, yes. But a single instance should almost NEVER force alignment shift. They were level 2 characters facing a CR 11 demon. The guy chose to run. It was not brave. It was not heroic. But EVEN A PALADIN could run, without losing paladinhood. KILLING yourself to help a doomed comrade is NOT good, it is NOT lawful. It IS dumb. Lying about it afterwards is a sign of character weakness, but it does NOT mean that the character must lose class abilities. It might. If the character were a paladin, the character would cease to be a paladin WHEN LYING (not when running away, which is only sensible), because violating the paladin's code of conduct causes the loss of class abilities, and lying is SPECIFICALLY against the paladin's code of conduct. You do NOT lose class abilities just because you were "naughty". If a cleric of Heironeous had run and lied about it, that would NOT be good (cowardice and lying), but that shouldn't result in loss of clerical abilities. REPEATED offenses of similar severity (one or two more depending on particulars) would, but the first offense should generally serve as a WARNING, unless there is SPECIFICALLY SOMETHING IN THE CHARACTER CLASS DESCRIPTION PROSCRIBING PARTICULAR ROUTES OF ACTION. You can make the argument that running and lying were "gross" violations, but I consider gross violations to be deliberate and conscious decisions. Example: A cleric of Heironeous steps onto a trap. The trap triggers, killing the cleric's entire party. Is that deserving of loss of clerichood? Example: A cleric of Heironeous is faced with a horrific battle that he can almost certainly not win without direct intervention by an unknown force. The cleric runs away. Is that deserving of loss of clerichood? (And before answering, consider that it is probably MORE impious to think that your deity is going to personally be watching over you, and will wipe your a@@ when you forget to.) Example: A cleric of Heironeous has run away from certain death at the hands of a monster that would shortly slay an argumentative and foolish comrade that attempted to negotiate with an evil and vile wizard. (I'm not saying that's what happened, but maybe that's how the cleric saw it). Example: A cleric of Heironeous has walked away from a situation in which a well-meaning but foolish and abusive ally has been trapped. Since the ally is not in any immediate danger, and is probably not going to BE in any immediate danger, there should be no problem except some slight embarrassment and anger on the part of the abusive ally, who frankly needs a gnomish lesson in humility anyways. Substitute "crusader" in. There you go. -- 1. You all showed a poor ability to work together as a party. In REAL LIFE, not just as characters. 2. Negotiation is generally not what you are doing when you are talking to a wizard. What you are usually doing is giving the wizard time to think of a way out, or to cast a silent and stilled spell, or something nasty that can kill you right away. Usually, you should jump the wizard first, tie him up, gag and blindfold him, and stand over him with spears at his throat while you ask questions to which he can only nod "yes" or "no". This is the approved way to do things. 3. On the other hand, talking to a wizard that "warned me to back off and to leave right now or else" is like asking to die. ESPECIALLY if that wizard has the power to summon and bind a CR 11 demon, and you are only a second level character. Obviously, the whole party should have negotiated, because honestly, that wizard should have been able to kill the whole party with both hands tied behind his back. And before laughing, just think that a wizard that powerful should be very wealthy, with bodyguards or monsters or golems or undead protecting him. So LITERALLY with hands behind his back. Unfortunately, sometimes, you run into role-players that are all about hack and slash, and the DM doesn't want to kill off his real-life friends in the game, so you play really stupid games that has everyone acting recklessly without any consequences.
Newpaintbrush 12-03-06, 03:24 AM	oh yeah, a few things . . . 1. I think negotiation was the RIGHT move. And I think the other party members aren't very good at what they do. 2. I think lecturing was the WRONG move. You guys are there to play and have fun, not to listen to someone lecture! Although you ARE right, honestly, nobody likes lectures. NOBODY. See how much you liked my previous post, mmm hmm 3. A gross violation is like, um, a cleric of Heironeous paying off a troupe of mercenaries to fight alongside his army, then to have his army attack the mercenaries from the rear after the bulk of the fighting was done, just so the cleric could avoid having to pay the mercenaries. Or, you know, sacrificing cute puppies, or burning down the inn because you didn't like their ale, or deliberate, gratuitous, and nasty things like that.
Mecha_Pope 12-03-06, 03:51 AM	No. Running away and lying about a buddy's death is NOT sufficient reason to force an alignment shift. Repeated actions, yes. But a single instance should almost NEVER force alignment shift. So if a Lg cleric raped then murdered a random woman off the streets, he'd get a second chance? The party member said, "I don't have to listen to this" and left him. That is murder. If he ran scared that would be one thing, but he just said good luck and left, and lied to everyone else so no one would help him. That's a fairly gross violation of alignment. KILLING yourself to help a doomed comrade is NOT good, it is NOT lawful. It IS dumb. Not if you can actually, you know, SAVE HIM WITHOUT DIEING! WOULDENT THAT BE NICE! THEN YOUR BOTH ALIVE! You do NOT lose class abilities just because you were "naughty". "naughty" is getting tanked and fooling around with your friend's 17 year old daughter.... ...Leaving you friend to die because you want him to shut up is VILE You can make the argument that running and lying were "gross" violations, but I consider gross violations to be deliberate and conscious decisions. He deliberatly and conciously said "Sod off" and buggered off himself, and lied to prevent help. The fact that he made it back with no help proves that there was ampel time for him to be freed. The only acceptable reason to leave him would have been wetting yourself with terror, if that was the case he wouldn't have stoped to try and help, or trying to save him untill the deamon breaks loose, then running after the circle disolves and the deamon is busy tearing you comrade apart. As long as you can do something to help him, you should if you call yourself good. Sure, your putting yourself in a life threatening situation, but that's all part of your job. Firemen don't pull a child out of a burning building, then drop him halfway out because he was complianing about his teddy bear. They also try to save people until the chance of doing so is nearly zero, giving up only when the situation is rediculously dangerous. They dont go, "I'm not going in there, that building's on FIRE!" 2. I think lecturing was the WRONG move. You guys are there to play and have fun, not to listen to someone lecture! Although you ARE right, honestly, nobody likes lectures. NOBODY. See how much you liked my previous post, mmm hmm That's too bad, noone like to DIE AT THE HANDS OF A WIZARD who, as it turns out, IS THE GOOD GUY! When you do stupid things, getting chewed out is something you have to deal with. For goodness sakes someone could have been killed. You don't make an rear of yourself when doing so can get your closest friends killed. I don't care how bad you want the wizard's treasure, or had to get your daily killing quota. Everyone has to take thier licks from time to time, in real life and in game, or else we fail to grow as people. So do our charichters. (I assume that it was and ic lecture, not ooc)
Flaxxon 12-03-06, 04:03 AM	First off, please PLEASE learn some grammar, syntax, and how to break your thoughts into separate sentences and paragraphs. God that was hard to read. Secondly, I think you all acted poorly. yes, they should have at least let you try to use diplomacy, but think about it: he's summoning a demon. I doubt he's going to have a change of heart at this late in the game. Also, there's a time and a place for everything; webbed in front of a demon ready to tear you to ribbons is not the time to lecture someone on their faith. I have to agree. How the hell are you ever going to pass an English class if you write this bad. Is putting a period in and two spaces that hard of the thing to do. Hell you should be greatfull that they didn't kill you there. Since a quick death has to be better then being slowly tortured by a demon. Just about every character I have would have left you for dead after you started yelling at them and I mainly play CG or NG characters. Talking to an evil mage summoning demons. Whats the point? Do you try to talk zombies out of attacking people to? Maybe you could have tried to talk the demon out of killing you. You never know! Lastly, Neither you or the Paladin decided that Detect evil was a good idea when this guy hired you. You a LG cleric were working for an Evil employer. Hell you should have to repent for helping the cause of evil. You should also apologize to the Wizard that is now footless.
Newpaintbrush 12-03-06, 04:08 AM	"So if a Lg cleric raped then murdered a random woman off the streets, he'd get a second chance? " Is that what I wrote? Because I really don't recall writing anything like that. It's pretty difficult to have a conversation or discussion when one guy is doing all the talking for both sides. "Not if you can actually, you know, SAVE HIM WITHOUT DIEING!" Dying. And you know, the crusader DID try to help the character out at first anyways. Why they both didn't just set the web on fire in the first place is beyond me. "The party member said, "I don't have to listen to this" and left him. That is murder. If he ran scared that would be one thing, but he just said good luck and left, and lied to everyone else so no one would help him. That's a fairly gross violation of alignment." It's just some guy getting fed up with someone else is all. Lawful good characters do not ALWAYS have to be lawful, nor do they ALWAYS have to be good, particularly under provocation. What, if a neutral evil character gives a copper piece to a beggar, he's suddenly neutral good? Also, it is not murder to leave someone to die. It is grossly negligent, and a very bad thing to do, but it is not literally murder. Please stop exaggerating. "2. I think lecturing was the WRONG move. You guys are there to play and have fun, not to listen to someone lecture! Although you ARE right, honestly, nobody likes lectures. NOBODY. See how much you liked my previous post, mmm hmm" Mmm hmm.
YamiSouru 12-03-06, 05:12 AM	....just a bit curious but....lecturing someone on their faith when they are trying to save you from slow,painfull,horrid death at the hands of a disgruntled demon?...you must have rolled low for the int score on that char. anyway. Im going to side with the crusader here. Yes what he did was wrong but honestly who here hasnt thought of leaving a over zealous follower of *insert god here* to die at the hands of a actuall incarnation of evil. Just be happy he didnt decide the best way to free you would be by cutting off your legs and carrying you out :D Also im going to point out that lieing by itself isnt chaotic. you could very easily have a lawfull good charactor who lies his head off weaving a dense web of lies, white lies, and half truths for the greator good. "A determined sword may end a life, but a fake smile and a handshake can save thousands"
Hufish 12-03-06, 01:19 PM	The more I think about it...I'm somewhat curious about the timing of this situation. You had three rounds to get free and out the tower before the demon got out, right? That's 18 seconds. You managed it by jumping out the window of the top floor. Now, the crusader should have had the same amount of time, 18 seconds, to get down the stairs of the tower and out the door, or be in the tower with a freed CR 11 fiend. Or was the fiend going to ignore him as a favor for attacking the wizard binding it? Also, where did the demon go after all this? Did it just go 'Awww, NUTS. They all got away.' and go home?
Mecha_Pope 12-03-06, 03:12 PM	He LEFT TO DIE the FREIND who was justly peeved for getting him in that mess in the first place. What your saying is that if a friend and I were in a room with a twenty minute timebomb, and I attacked the bomb diffusal expert (who my friend was trying to ask what he was doing, and the expert kept saying, "Shut up and get out of here or else something bad is going to happen to you") thinking he was setting the bomb, and killed him, but my friend was shot in the leg because of it and couldnt walk, and he started chewing me out because i got him shot, got a building destroyed, and possibly got both of us killed, that I shoud say, "Too bad" and leave him to die? Would you do that? What kind of monster are you if yes? Part of being good is self sacrafice, giving of yourself and putting yourself into direct danger for the sake of others, regardless of weather or not they peeved you off. Hell, even a neutral person wouldn't leave thier FRIEND to die. You keep saying how one minor infraction wouldn't cause and alignment shift, and how good people can do little bad things here in there, but we are talking about ABANDONING PEOPLE TO A HORRIBLE DEATH BECAUSE IT INCONVIENIENCED YOU TO LISTEN TO THEM! The loss of human life is a serious thing. Also, leaving the kettle on a burning down a house is neglegence, DELIBERATLY leaving someone in a situation of almost certain death is murder.
Thubby 12-03-06, 03:20 PM	i think you ment humanoid, "orcs are people to!" lol. p.s. i found that broom you were talking about (inside joke)
Mecha_Pope 12-03-06, 03:22 PM	The more I think about it...I'm somewhat curious about the timing of this situation. You had three rounds to get free and out the tower before the demon got out, right? That's 18 seconds. You managed it by jumping out the window of the top floor. Now, the crusader should have had the same amount of time, 18 seconds, to get down the stairs of the tower and out the door, or be in the tower with a freed CR 11 fiend. Or was the fiend going to ignore him as a favor for attacking the wizard binding it? Also, where did the demon go after all this? Did it just go 'Awww, NUTS. They all got away.' and go home? I'm wonering how long the actually had to get out. I mean, they were back at the inn drinking when he got back to town, so it had to be more than a few round from when he was abandoned to when he broke free. Just goes to show that there was plenty of time to save him. Good people, even neutral people, when not consumed by terror or in a situation when there is no hope, NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER leave a FREIND to die because they were annoying.
Mecha_Pope 12-03-06, 03:23 PM	The broom would help right now, yes.:P
Flaxxon 12-04-06, 01:36 AM	Good people, even neutral people, when not consumed by terror or in a situation when there is no hope, NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER leave a FREIND to die because they were annoying. Damn what dream world are you living in. The world is full of "Good" people who do mean evil and horrible things on a Daily basis. Its human nature to look out for oneself first and then others.
Archangel62 12-04-06, 03:38 AM	Well, my own guess is closer to he jumped out the window and was badly injured so he was likely limping all the way home. That and he might have been trying to warn people while we moved about what was coming in case the demon managed to get itself free.
Kradlo 12-04-06, 09:58 AM	Number one, I laughed my rear end off reading this post. I was able to wade through the mind-numbingly long run-on sentence (learn some basic grammer, please!) reading how this cleric of Heironeous decided to play Miss Manners with the Evil Wizard with the summoned demon. Good gosh, if you're ability to speak matches your written skills in English, regardless of your character's Charisma score, you might have a hard time persuading a peasant to move his cart, much less a villain to "come along quietly." From your description, you were pretty much no use in the fight, and spent your time whinging and complaining. That's probably what motivated the crusader player to abandon you. This is not justifying his character's actions, mind you; regardless of how obnoxious and annoying your cleric is, it's incredibly wrong to abandon you, and worse still to lie to cover it up. So, the crusader player needs to accept responsibility for his misdeeds, and atone. You need to grow up and stop being having a hissy fit when the other players don't follow your lead when you're acting like Barney Fife. Evidently the bad guys don't take you seriously, nor do your companions. And please, learn some basic rules of English. It will serve you well in your life.
Mecha_Pope 12-04-06, 03:19 PM	Damn what dream world are you living in. The world is full of "Good" people who do mean evil and horrible things on a Daily basis. Its human nature to look out for oneself first and then others. How many of your friends have you left to die? How do you explain firefighters, poliece and the armed forces? They put the lives of others ahead of their own on a daily basis. In the Seals, they risk thier lives to recover the body of a follen comrade, and thier motto is no man left behind. The military as a whole revolves around looking out for your squad while they look out for you, and you risk your life for them as they would for you. Part of being a good person is overcoming human nature to do great things. I know alot of veterans, including one who won several medals for putting himself into the line of fire, of his own free will, to rescue a wounded comrade. Don't judge the rest of the world by yourself, as your moral compass is obviously lacking. People fight and die for others, even those they don't know, all the time. I've honestly done nothing worse in my life than tell a fib or twelve, so I don't know what kind of horrible things most people do that your talking about. I ask you, what sick, dark, and abstract world you live in?
Amon_WinterfallIV 12-04-06, 04:03 PM	Running from an overwhelming encounter, even if the target is highly evil, is self-preservation. As I do not agree with the matryrdom clause in Alignment (which is RAW, but not sensible) Leaving a friend behind--is questionable; but the situation did warrant this--a CR 11 demon is going to eat you. It's harsh, but leaving a friend behind when you're hopelessly screwed falls under the self-preservation exemption to alignment. The problem is lying to their superiors: Now you've got a squarely chaotic act. The problem is that not telling the truth would have prevented a rescue attempt, and might have endangered your friend. Friends may have to flee from each other in desperate circumstances, but they try to help each other when they can; trying to nail the coffin closed on your friend IS LOW and UNBECOMING his character. The DM should ask the character if he wants to slide one step lawful or chaotic; nothing is forced at this point, however.
Thubby 12-04-06, 04:40 PM	Running from an overwhelming encounter, even if the target is highly evil, is self-preservation. As I do not agree with the matryrdom clause in Alignment (which is RAW, but not sensible) Leaving a friend behind--is questionable; but the situation did warrant this--a CR 11 demon is going to eat you. It's harsh, but leaving a friend behind when you're hopelessly screwed falls under the self-preservation exemption to alignment. The problem is lying to their superiors: Now you've got a squarely chaotic act. The problem is that not telling the truth would have prevented a rescue attempt, and might have endangered your friend. Friends may have to flee from each other in desperate circumstances, but they try to help each other when they can; trying to nail the coffin closed on your friend IS LOW and UNBECOMING his character. The DM should ask the character if he wants to slide one step lawful or chaotic; nothing is forced at this point, however. i would agree with you if he had just left him there (maybe), but he is the REASON he got stuck in the first place, if he hadnt been so reckless as to attack the good wizard, who had not done them any harm , and was talking to them (albeit rudely), then the we never would have happened, and the whole situation would have ben moot. he caused him to be stuck, and the demons release, its his responsibilty. hte rigt thing to do (especialy lawful good) is release your friend, who you got stuck, damn the consequences
AegisShade 12-04-06, 05:39 PM	For all those of you who would have refused to save him, Christ, I'd be sorry to ever have to game with you. If any of you have ever had siblings, I'm pretty sure that you've faced one or another of their tantrums. :tantrum: Now say you were facing one of the (rather outdated) problems of that sibling getting their foot stuck in the railroad as a train was looming forth. Would you be content to leave that sibling to his/her own fate just because they were spazzing at you? :waits: Maybe if you five years old and @#$%ing your pants. Now that's just you and me. We're talking about a knightly character with a code of honour who is brother-in-arms with a relatively (in most other cases) nice comrade. Seems to be stretching it a bit to think that they were have any excuse for fleeing (with plenty of time on the clock) to save their own bacon and then lying about it. If he had at least told the paladin the truth and then subdued him for his own sake, then I would have understood, but taking him out for a drink afterwards...? Eh. :nonono:
Mecha_Pope 12-04-06, 10:38 PM	next thing I know the crusader says you know what good luck I dont have to listen to this and he left Alot of people here have made good points about alignment and minor infractions and self presevation and what not, but this is the key sentance, and what makes this case special, and why I think that this case warrents a forced alignment change. Good people do not do that to thier friends.
Papa_duval 12-05-06, 05:06 AM	KILLING yourself to help a doomed comrade is NOT good, it is NOT lawful. It IS dumb. Actually, that is pretty much at the heart of what Good is - being willing to put the welfare of someone else ahead of your own welfare. You're attitude is strongly neutral (in the good/evil axis) in that you'll be willing to help someone if there is no major cost to you, but its 'you first' when it comes to danger. As for the person who said that there are many 'good' people who do evil/horrible things. I'd argue that they are not good, but rather they are neutral, which is what the vast majority of people in this world are. The exceptions either way stand out quite hugely. Now, since this is a religious character, a crusader dedicated to higher ideals than the average person, you could expect that they might risk their own life to save the life of another. Would the crusader had run away if it wasn't the PC trapped in the web, but an innocent child instead. Would your opinion of whether this was a non LG action change if it was an innocent child that the PC had abandoned. It shouldn't, because its exactly the same thing. The Crusader betrayed his religious convictions to save his own life. Those people who think you shouldn't change your alignment because of one thing might want to consider the following. If you were in that situation, and it was your friend that ran away after saying 'I'm not listening to this, good luck and sod you!' would you consider them to be a true and virtuous person, or would you think they were a piece of S***. More importantly, would you EVER trust them again? Think about what he did Friend's life is in danger, reason for abandoning friend wasn't 'I'm terrified here, i'm gonna die' but rather 'god, stop whining, and sort yourself out.' Pretty Chaotic Neutral if you ask me.
Rauric 12-05-06, 09:24 AM	It is possible to kick his PC out of the group if all agree to it. Even though this is a game a character that does stupid acts over and over or just is an ass can be asked to leave at any time.
Hufish 12-06-06, 12:19 AM	Number one, I laughed my rear end off reading this post. I was able to wade through the mind-numbingly long run-on sentence (learn some basic grammer, please!) reading how this cleric of Heironeous decided to play Miss Manners with the Evil Wizard with the summoned demon. Good gosh, if you're ability to speak matches your written skills in English, regardless of your character's Charisma score, you might have a hard time persuading a peasant to move his cart, much less a villain to "come along quietly." From your description, you were pretty much no use in the fight, and spent your time whinging and complaining. That's probably what motivated the crusader player to abandon you. This is not justifying his character's actions, mind you; regardless of how obnoxious and annoying your cleric is, it's incredibly wrong to abandon you, and worse still to lie to cover it up. So, the crusader player needs to accept responsibility for his misdeeds, and atone. You need to grow up and stop being having a hissy fit when the other players don't follow your lead when you're acting like Barney Fife. Evidently the bad guys don't take you seriously, nor do your companions. And please, learn some basic rules of English. It will serve you well in your life. The only problem with this view, in my opinion, is that the crusader and the wizard PICKED THE FIGHT with the (apparently supposedly) evil wizard who was binding a CR 11 fiend. And then, when the person who not only was the first one in the room but also the only one NOT thinking with their swords and spells had the nerve to lay into them (as I see pretty much any Lawful Good cleric of a War deity doing), their response was to run off, telling him to 'stop whining' in the course of this. As well as telling the paladin, 'He's dead, let's go get a drink!' Of course, this /could/ be because they didn't want the paladin telling them they had to deal with the fiend that THEY let loose by the irresponsible actions. Yes, he wasn't necessarily useful in the fight. But NO, it wasn't a fight until the crusader and wizard interrupted the diplomatic efforts of the cleric to attack the wizard. In my humble opinion, neither the crusader nor the wizard had ANY right to complain about the cleric's attitude. If I had been playing the cleric, he'd have walked away from that party, potentially alerting the temples of Heironeous about these adventurers so that an eye could be kept on them.
Kradlo 12-06-06, 10:14 AM	It's one thing to try to command the evil wizard to cease his ritual and surrender, but don't expect instant capitulation. The cleric did his best Barney Fife impression, with the result of being told to go peddle his papers by the unimpressed evil wizard. The PC wizard and crusader both figured that in a game of sword & sorcery fantasy, using swords and sorcery (or wizardry in this case) was the way to go, so they attacked. This was a clearly evil opponent caught in the act of doing something not only evil, but downright unholy, who refused to surrender when confronted. I've no problem at all with that. The cleric failed his save against the web spell - almost karmic in a way. He spent more effort in excoriating his companions for attacking the evil wizard than in extricating himself (ever heard of dispel magic?). In short, he was being an aggravating jerk, and his companions got fed up and left him to his fate. For a crusader of Heironeous, that's not acceptable. Acceptable is pulling your jerk of a friend out of the web, dragging him out of the tower, and perhaps dunking him into a horse trough in town to cool him off. I think both players need to learn from this.
Mecha_Pope 12-06-06, 10:51 AM	Dear Kradlo, First of all the wizard wasn't evil. Second of all, if the wizard is binding a fiend that could wipe you all all over the floor, you should let him finish before you kill him. Third: DIPEL MAGIC???? They were lvl 2 for gods sake! Do you even read posts or just comment on them? Anyways, talking is a free action, so he was probibly trying to free himself and lecture them at the same time. Anyways, I'm pretty sure that the both the guys involved (the guy who was stuck and the guy that left him) were both crusaders. Not sure, the ops post is kinda.... meh.
kelvinaw273 12-06-06, 12:20 PM	My team mates were behind me, our wizard was near the stairs, I started talking to the mage and asked him to stop his ritual and come with us (Lawful).. Also known as the Captain Carrot approach, but reasonable. He warned me to back off and to leave right now or else..my team mates started to losse it and our wizard fired a Magic Missile so negotiations dropped like that, next thing I know our Crusader charged and scored a good blow against the poor wizard, he countered using a web spell on us and lucky me I was the only one caught in it, he told us how stupid we were and he was pretty ******, then our crusader managed to score a crit and cut his left foot off, I was thinking damn we are screwed sience the barrier on the demon started to fade, the wizard crawled and teleported to god knows where and we were left to the demon´s mercy, he wasnt out yet so we had time to run like hell, the thing is that I was still caught in the net, the sword sage and wizard said you know what guys will wait downstairs..my fellow crusader didnt left me behind and was triying to cut thru the net by then my character and I were pretty upset as you can Imagine,I was yelling at them about why why didnt the let me talk some sense in to the wizard and why didnt they listen to me when I told them something is wrong. Note to your character: Next time your life may depend on somebody else, DON'T INSULT THEM. .next thing I know the crusader says you know what good luck I dont have to listen to this and he left so I was in a tight spot..they went downstairs and the paladin (I asked the dm to put the paladin there so he could help me sience he was in fact there) he asked what happened to my cleric, the crusader said he is dead lets go and they all left the tower and went to the nearest town. So this crusader has abandoned a friend and lied about them? Aren't they menat to be Lawful or Good or something? Meanwhile I had only three chances left before the CR 11 demon escaped and I had to roll a 17 or above strenght check to do it..and by Heironeous grace I did on the 3rd roll and jumping out the window and almost killing myself, I survived. I think fleeing something you cannot hope to fight and win is not cowardice as suggested. I managed to make it to our town and found my friends drinking and talking I was already pretty ****** at the crusader for leaving me behind and then the paladin and I found that he lied about me being dead... SO.................... Should we..? Go ahead and act lawfully ? How?? Or treat him as a traitor and heretic of Heironeous´ Church? One more thing the wizard was stoping the demon and the one who hired us knew he was good..he was evil. Well, your colleagues behaved chaotically, IMO. They need to atone. The paladin excepted, as he wasn't there.
Victor_Alaric_Lycoris 12-06-06, 01:17 PM	Re: the behaviour of the players: to me it's a case of the PLAYERS getting ****** off, not the characters, and performing out-of-character actions. The crusader's player was trying to punish the OP for his words by leaving the OP's character to die. I realize this is understood, but I wanted to state this for the record. That being said, I would say the actions of the crusader require atonement from a cleric of the Big H. and a quest to prove his loyalties, at the very least. The crusader's actions were not the actions of a lawful good character, I feel, and they were the player's actions. If the player is shrugging his shoulders about what happened in that tower, saying, "oh well", then I would consider that character Neutral, if not Chaotic Neutral. I would also forever ban him from using class abilities tied to being a follower of H. (I just use the g'd's first letter because I can't bother spelling that name out.) But that's your DM's decision. What your character and the paladin should do: press charges in the church and in civil court. He'd probably be forced to rejoin you to help stop or assist others in stopping the demon, anyway, but there might be a geas or Mark of Justice, is it, (Lawful spell that bars someone from a specific action), placed upon him to "nudge" his behavior appropriately. As for the OP: was your character yelling at the others, or were YOU yelling at them? I think we're missing a some of social history here with your group that would explain the situation more fully from an OOG perspective. Regardless, a LG character leaving a companion to die is a low, bastardly thing to do.
Hufish 12-07-06, 12:18 AM	It's one thing to try to command the evil wizard to cease his ritual and surrender, but don't expect instant capitulation. The cleric did his best Barney Fife impression, with the result of being told to go peddle his papers by the unimpressed evil wizard. The cleric went into a situation where he did not have a solid knowledge of the alignment of the wizard, and TALKED FIRST to someone who was not in a position to immediately harm the party. The wizard and crusader made no effort to ascertain the situation, but rather ran in and attacked while the cleric was in negotiations. The PC wizard and crusader both figured that in a game of sword & sorcery fantasy, using swords and sorcery (or wizardry in this case) was the way to go, so they attacked. This was a clearly evil opponent caught in the act of doing something not only evil, but downright unholy, who refused to surrender when confronted. I've no problem at all with that. The problem with this is that to the PCs, this is NOT A GAME. The players decided that since this is Dungeons and Dragons, hack and slash were the way to go. Negating the point in even taking points in diplomacy for anyone else in the party. And actually the assumption made by the two of them allowed a relatively powerful fiend to go free in the world and wreak havoc. Yay team! This was stupidity at it's finest. The cleric failed his save against the web spell - almost karmic in a way. He spent more effort in excoriating his companions for attacking the evil wizard than in extricating himself (ever heard of dispel magic?). In short, he was being an aggravating jerk, and his companions got fed up and left him to his fate. Please, before you jump to conclusions, read. The levels of the characters counter your point about dispel magic. In character, a Lawful Good cleric of Heironeous who doesn't criticize his companions for attacking without thought and disrupting the efforts to actually know what's going on isn't playing the character properly. Perhaps he was being irritating. Perhaps even annoying...but none of that justifies the behaviors of his fellow party members, who were both ICly and OOCly WRONG. For a crusader of Heironeous, that's not acceptable. Acceptable is pulling your jerk of a friend out of the web, dragging him out of the tower, and perhaps dunking him into a horse trough in town to cool him off. I agree with the first part of this. It isn't acceptable. Potentially, given the irritation provided by the cleric who just had negotiations disrupted by a kill-happy fighter in a crusader's body, the second part is acceptable. However, given the nature of Heironeous, I'd say the crusader could be expecting a VERY stern response by just about every local and church-related authority. The cleric, on the other hand, I think would actually be praised for thinking ahead. Shame the pally wasn't actually in the room with the 'evil wizard'...a detect evil would have proven what was going on. Why didn't he use that ability on the person who sent you after said wizard? I think both players need to learn from this. Yes, the players of the wizard and crusader need to learn from this. The player of the cleric, also known as the OP, hopefully has learned just how well he can trust his fellow players in this particular group to allow him to properly play his character in a ROLE Playing Game, instead of a ROLL Playing Game.
mato_hibiki 12-07-06, 12:25 AM	First of all, for the record, I agree with Kradlo. Drag your buddy out and dunk his head until he's settled, then buy him a drink and have a long talk. Now on to the important part. Good is dumb. It's true, from someone else's point of view. If you're the kind of person who'd pinch something from a store when nobody is looking, or break into lockers during high school for an extra few bucks because you won't feel like getting a job. It's true, what idiot would ever even consider standing between some whiny chump you've been traveling with, and ten feet of mottled skin and fangs? I would. Without hesitation. Not even a heartbeat. Why? That whiny chump is my friend. Even if I get sick of his complaining, and he argues about and does the dumbest things, and I'm so mad I could just punch his lights out, that demon still has to go through ME first. That's the way it is. Always has been, always will be. If you can't understand why I'd do that, then don't ask. You'll never be able to comprehend the reason, even if I explain it to you. Your only hope is to live it for yourself. You don't have to be Lawful, or even Good. And it seems like being a hero is required, but it's not. You don't have to be a great person, just be there, where you belong. Between him, and them. Then, if you're lucky, you'll understand. - "Ours is not to question why. Ours is but to do or die." Creed of a hero. "I don't give a damn about you, or any of this crap. But I'm not letting them go alone." Creed of a friend.
Flaxxon 12-07-06, 01:02 AM	How many of your friends have you left to die? How do you explain firefighters, poliece and the armed forces? They put the lives of others ahead of their own on a daily basis. In the Seals, they risk thier lives to recover the body of a follen comrade, and thier motto is no man left behind. The military as a whole revolves around looking out for your squad while they look out for you, and you risk your life for them as they would for you. Part of being a good person is overcoming human nature to do great things. I know alot of veterans, including one who won several medals for putting himself into the line of fire, of his own free will, to rescue a wounded comrade. Don't judge the rest of the world by yourself, as your moral compass is obviously lacking. People fight and die for others, even those they don't know, all the time. I've honestly done nothing worse in my life than tell a fib or twelve, so I don't know what kind of horrible things most people do that your talking about. I ask you, what sick, dark, and abstract world you live in? Q1. A: At this time I have no friends that have died. Q2. A: Firefighters and police officers and those in the Armed services are very fine upstanding citizens. Although since they are the minority of the people in the USA, many more people work in the private sector. It is much easier to use them as an example. This being said I also know a number of veterans and combat veterans along with police officers and firefighters. This being said not everyone who follows one of these fine and noble professions is a “Good” person. What have they said about most of the major serial killers in the US. Once they are arrested what have neighbors and friends say. I believe the quotes are “He was such a Nice person”, “A really Good neighbor”, Some of them are even fine upstanding citizens in there community. Another example, lets take a large city. Someplace like New York or LA. Somebody gets shot on the street with about 100 people watching. How many of those “Good” people do you think wait to ID the shooter or will even talk to the cops. The percent is pretty low. How many times have you walked past a dirty homeless person who was begging for change? Do you stop and give them all the spare change you have every time? Do you try to help them out by buying them a meal maybe a safe place to stay for the night? I’ll be willing to bet that you walk right past without even giving them a second thought. That’s not a very “Good” thing to do. Q3 A: Southwestern Minnesota. I think you need to remove your self from the happy dappy land of bunnies and ponies and take a look around you. The world is not always wonderful place full of happy things. I have and will do a number of things for those that I consider my Friends. By the way what is the magical plus on that Shiv of Joy? I’m thinking since its prison issue its more then likely a +3 Holy Shiv of Joy. I love the idea of a Shiv of Joy.
Mecha_Pope 12-07-06, 10:52 AM	To tell the truth, every homless person i've met, i've given 20 bucks too. Of course, i've only met two, otherwise i'd be very poor. And I do make a point to give to charity. Your saying that good people do vile evil things all the time though, and really, people doing vile evil things are very rare. Otherwise, the prisions would be overflowing and what not. Your example of New York is flawed, due to the fact that most people are true neutral rather than good, and couldn't give a damn about a total stranger. Anyhow, in most of the cases where people say, "Oh, he was such a nice guy" it is usualy found that he was deeply disturbed and borderline psyco, all under a vineer of normalcy and good intentions. Good people do not do evil things all the time, because then they are not good people. I understand very well that the world isn't the greatest place, but it's a hell of a lot better than most people give it credit for, at least in our country. That's why I've been so adamant most of my life about the need of developed nations to act to resolve the injustices of the rest of the world. It's not right that we sould live such comfertable lives and let others suffer. If you percieve the world as I interpret you do (at least the impression i got from your first post) the world is already doom. You have to see the better side of things, otherwise you won't recegnize the darkness, due to a lack of contrast between the two. Lack of hope and athiesm will mean the death of the world, because if no one cares anymore, how can they preserve everything worth caring about. My point is, for every bad person, there are at least 10 good ones. The impression I got from your first post was an emo kid whining and cutting themself, with a fatal-istic view of the world and a complete lack of empathy. If I was wrong, I appologize. I can't step back from a land of butterflies and bunnies, because the world is full of butterflies and bunnies, even if it also houses lions and tigers and bears. As to sw Minnesota, it's the people that make the place, not the other way around. If you fill an area with good christian people with strong morals and ethics, of course your going to have low rates of crime, poverty and corruptions. This place is nice because we break our backs keeping it that way, and we're damn proud of it. Things **** me off sometimes, like that hurricane katrina crud. They just sat on thier rears and cryed, "Come help us government! Live our lives for us, because we're not capable of doing it ourselves! Clean up this whole mess because we're helpless!" It makes me sick. When a tornado riped through St Peter, we didn't need the government to come help us! The moment the storm was over, people got out of their homes and started cleaning up. They didn't as the government to do it for them. They didn't comlain about how they were being mistreated. They just got up and did it. It was eventually declared a national disaster, but the cleanup was well on the way by the time the feds arived. Because people stoped complaining and did something. If people stop complaining about how awful the world is, and just do something about it, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. Just my two cents.
Mecha_Pope 12-07-06, 10:58 AM	BTW the shiv of joy is an intellegent +1 holy axomatic emo-bane shive of flaming burst. It is LG, and was crafted for the express purpose of shanking the depressed. It has the minor power to affect the target with a joy effect, forcing the target into a euphoric, catatonic state for three rounds if they fail a dc 18 will save, if they pass, they are affected by hidious laughter, as the spell, no save.
Kradlo 12-07-06, 11:14 AM	Dear Kradlo, First of all the wizard wasn't evil. Really? Were you running the game, or are you drawing conclusions of your own? Summoning demons of the abyss sounds pretty evil in most campaigns. Second of all, if the wizard is binding a fiend that could wipe you all all over the floor, you should let him finish before you kill him. The PCs failed their spellcraft rolls. So, they had no way to know the demon was being bound - as you don't, either. The circle could have been for transporting the fiend to another location to wreak havoc. But fiends don't wander about the Prime Material Plane on their own, or so you'd know if you took ranks in Knowledge: the Planes, so it's pretty obvious that the evil wizard summoned him. Third: DIPEL MAGIC???? They were lvl 2 for gods sake! Do you even read posts or just comment on them? Anyways, talking is a free action, so he was probibly trying to free himself and lecture them at the same time. Talking is a free action, up to a point. You can speak a few words, but beyond that it represents your actions. And yes, I do read posts, and even slogged through the abysmally poor English of the OP. I must have missed the part about them being 2nd level, but I'll beg your forgiveness as it was downright painful reading, and my aging eyes must have missed their character levels. Anyways, I'm pretty sure that the both the guys involved (the guy who was stuck and the guy that left him) were both crusaders. Not sure, the ops post is kinda.... meh. The OPs character was a cleric of Heirneous. He tried Diplomacy, and it failed. The others figured that when reason fails, force prevails, and cut off the wizard's foot (interesting critical hit chart, there). The characters had no way of knowing the demon would become freed of the binding - it was in a summoning circle, and everyone had failed their Spellcraft checks, or at least those with the ranks to even try. The wizard refused to surrender, caught in the act. If your game requires all good-aligned characters to quietly sit back for thirty minutes while the party cleric discusses semantics with the BBEG as he completes his infernal ritual, your game is one I'll happily miss. Again, this situation came from one player deciding he was party leader, and the others having none of it. The cleric decided that his vast skills in diplomacy were going to carry the day, and no one was listening, including the evil wizard. So, he spent his actions complaining and yelling at his friends. His friends reacted by leaving him to die. Not a lot of warm fuzzy feelings all around. I think the crusader and wizard need to take some serious atonement, as leaving a party member to die (and lying about it afterward) are not acceptable. The cleric players needs to be on the same page as his fellow players. He's not the leader unless they say so, and he needs to understand that he can't constantly gripe and moan when he doesn't get his way. A little time spent learning the basics of trust, friendship and teamwork would do this party a world of good.
Mecha_Pope 12-07-06, 01:26 PM	The op's post is hard to read, but it says that the wizard in question turned out to be good, and they were supposed to reason with him and join forces. Thier employer was evil. I'm not going to get into how wrong it was of thier paladin to not cast detect evil. Second, they have no idea that the wizard summoned the deamon to begin with. He could have been binding one who was already out and about. The op doesn't specify. So saying that they don't know the wizard is binding it is a cyclical argument, and gets us no where, because one could argue that he may not have even summoned it. It's up to the pcs to figure this stuff out. And I'm fairly sure that I could work to free myself from a web and chew people out at the same time. You can complain and yell and free yourself at the same time. Nowhere in the post does it say that he was not working to free himself, and to assume so is rather hasty. They're all wrong, but the crusader is wronger. (I know this is gramaticly incorecct)
kelvinaw273 12-07-06, 02:05 PM	Well the entire set-up looked like a "DM-testing-how-faithful-you-are-to-your-alignment" scene to me, and I would say the DM succeded all right. The Cleric started with trying diplomacy, but the other characters diod not give this a chance to work - they just attacked. As a result, things went badly as I imagine the DM intended. Now the real issue is the cleric stuck in the web: the LG Crusader should have done the noble thing - tried to help his friend, and stood and faced the demon if he failed. That's the kind of thing that Crusaders and Paladins do. But he's first level, so fleeing in terror was not such a disgrace after all, but I would expect him to visit the temple and atone for his moment of weakness. He didn't do either - he started to help his friend, but then left with time to spare with a 'to hell with you then, jackass' attitude. That's a much more major transgression. Good idn't 'good' if it has conditions attached of this nature, it's neutral.
Flaxxon 12-07-06, 11:32 PM	To tell the truth, every homless person i've met, i've given 20 bucks too. Of course, i've only met two, otherwise i'd be very poor. And I do make a point to give to charity. Well thats good to hear. Although if you ever spent anytime in large urban area you might find your wallet as empty as a Congressmans/womans soul. I understand very well that the world isn't the greatest place, but it's a hell of a lot better than most people give it credit for, at least in our country. That is very true. The impression I got from your first post was an emo kid whining and cutting themself, with a fatal-istic view of the world and a complete lack of empathy. If I was wrong, I appologize. Thats ok I enjoy a good discussion/debate. Thats what I get for having a trial lawyer for a father. As to sw Minnesota, it's the people that make the place, not the other way around. If you fill an area with good christian people with strong morals and ethics, of course your going to have low rates of crime, poverty and corruptions. This place is nice because we break our backs keeping it that way, and we're damn proud of it. Things **** me off sometimes, like that hurricane katrina crud. They just sat on thier rears and cryed, "Come help us government! Live our lives for us, because we're not capable of doing it ourselves! Clean up this whole mess because we're helpless!" It makes me sick. When a tornado riped through St Peter, we didn't need the government to come help us! The moment the storm was over, people got out of their homes and started cleaning up. They didn't as the government to do it for them. They didn't comlain about how they were being mistreated. They just got up and did it. It was eventually declared a national disaster, but the cleanup was well on the way by the time the feds arived. Because people stoped complaining and did something. If people stop complaining about how awful the world is, and just do something about it, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. Just my two cents. I couldn't agree with you more. It seems that to many people are looking for a handout to get by. BTW the shiv of joy is an intellegent +1 holy axomatic emo-bane shive of flaming burst. It is LG, and was crafted for the express purpose of shanking the depressed. It has the minor power to affect the target with a joy effect, forcing the target into a euphoric, catatonic state for three rounds if they fail a dc 18 will save, if they pass, they are affected by hidious laughter, as the spell, no save. Just plain great. I want every cleric I play from now on to have a Shiv of Joy. Thank you for the enjoyable discussion. It has made work much more enjoyable. Enjoy the rest of the Pheasant season in SD this year. Hope the Jackrabbits do well tonight in basketball.
Mecha_Pope 12-08-06, 02:24 PM	Stupid message boards. Sense tone and volume and everything else related to discussing a subject with someone cannot be conveyed through message boards. I almost blew up at an intellegent, reasonable fellew because the text made me feel as if he was insulting me. Oh well, life goes on! I enjoyed the debate, there aren't many reasonable people on the boards to have one with!
Muspelheim 12-08-06, 07:20 PM	To me, this whole thing sounds more of an OOG issue than anything else. If you are just somewhat mature about the game, those things just shouldn't happen - except in games which are explicitly set up to be about betrayals, backstabbing and so on among the PCs. I suspect that the whining/lecturing was as much out of game as in game, which is just a wrong and immature thing to do. After all, most likely you are playing with a group of friends. Also, while you certainly can try diplomacy in a situation like this, the attack on the wizard was totally justified. He's in the process of binding a demon and explicitly threatens the players when they start to talk. In addition to that they had information (though it's false information) that he's an evil wizard. How much more do you need, given the premises of the genre? Sure, the players might have been more careful when accepting the quest/job, but casting detect evil on everybody and not trusting anyone is as much metagaming as attacking the evil wizard just because that's how things generally works in DnD, at least unless all their previous experience have been that people lie to them, betray them and so on (which is generally a DM issue, unless you want to create a very specific mood). It's hard to tell for sure given the limited information in the OP, but the whole scenario seems to me to be pretty much orchestrated by the DM in order to have the PCs 'mess up' in some way or another. If the wizard is good and the party enters and start to talk to him, why is he immediately threatening them - it *is* a fantasy world after all, he should know about adventurers and how it must seem like he's summoning a demon to them. Sure, every good person don't have to a nice guy with good manners etc, but still, if the only possible way the PCs could have discovered that he wasn't evil was to have cast detect magic on their employer or something inane like that, then it really appears like the DM deliberately set the party up to fail, or make a big screw-up. As mentioned, I think alot of the issues stem from out of game issues. I'd say you need to sit down together and discuss exactly what it is you want from the game and how you should go about playing it.
Altar_Boy 12-08-06, 09:08 PM	What kind of Crusader / Paladin can't take a good lecturing of morals? They do it to others all the time. Shoot, it's a spell-like ability, I reckon. :P Anywho, it seems that diplomacy and roleplaying is not your group's forte. That's cool. From now on, ask the DM not to throw anything at you that you can't kill if you want to. BTW, where DID the demon go? Methinks he found a comfy couch, a full fridge and pantry, and the Spice Channel. :devil:
AegisShade 12-10-06, 01:16 AM	The PCs failed their spellcraft rolls. So, they had no way to know the demon was being bound - as you don't, either. Second, they have no idea that the wizard summoned the deamon to begin with. He could have been binding one who was already out and about. The op doesn't specify. So saying that they don't know the wizard is binding it is a cyclical argument, and gets us no where, because one could argue that he may not have even summoned it. It's up to the pcs to figure this stuff out.I'm just thinking here that certain things don't really need a successful Knowledge and/or Spellcraft check. I know a dragon when I see one and I can assume that my 1st-level character can recognize one too even if he's never encountered anything like it before. As a cleric with even 1 rank in Knowledge (the planes), it's reasonable to assume that you can at least have an inkling of what’s going on. Summoning a demon looks a lot different than binding a demon in that in the latter case, the demon is already there. Possibly the wizard may have been transporting it, but that’s less likely IMO. People tend to put a little too much importance on Knowledge and Spellcraft checks to figure out something. This was possibly a case of common sense that went awry (in more ways than one), but hopefully it’s a lesson learned for all involved.
Thubby 12-10-06, 02:17 AM	As a cleric with even 1 rank in Knowledge (the planes), it's reasonable to assume that you can at least have an inkling of what’s going on. Summoning a demon looks a lot different than binding a demon in that in the latter case, the demon is already there. Possibly the wizard may have been transporting it, but that’s less likely IMO. the difference between summoning and binding arent necesarily all that diffferent. how many people have heard the story of the evil wizard in his dark tower using a summoning circle to conjure a demon? i think most people know the basic story. now a binding (for example magic CIRCLE against evil), or other process have used magic circles before, but IME the summoning one is more comon. so think of it this way you enter the room. in the center, you see glowing magical circle, its runes far beyond your understanding. within is a demon. on the outside, directly in front of you, you see a mage, reciting some uninteligable (assume failed spellcraft to identify spell) encantations take a step into your character, or better yet, step out of character, and forget you know dnd rules (which is basicaly what a 1-3 lvl character is), what would you think? wizard in dark tower standing around reciting incantations around a weird gllowing circle with a demon??? i agree that somethings are comon sense, and some people put too much to the spellcraft/know skills. but i also know alot of people value them far too little.