Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Watchdog_of_Hades 05-28-06, 07:58 PM	All right. I'm pretty sure that the people in my D&D party don't read the boards, so... We just got an extremely powerful magical artifact. My guy, the chaotic evil psychopath who'd kill the entire party in their sleeps if there was no risk and one copper in it for him, needs to deliver the artifact to his church of Thieves and Assassins "R" Us. The rest of the party wants to get the artifact to the clergy of a wimpy good god. I also want the rest of the party to not know that I intentionally betrayed them. Unfortunately, they all think I'm a sneaky, shifty, suspicious person, so they'll suspect me. Fortunately, the item was forced to switch hands during a battle with a demon that wanted the item. I was the closest ally-ish person, so the artifact is now in my possession. Abbreviated question in the next paragraph. How do I deliver an item to people the party doesn't want to have the item without the party knowing I gave it over willingly? Pretty much, I need to slip away for an hour or two. I could, maybe, run away when nobody's looking at me, have the church beat me unconcious, then wander around to find the party, missing my valuable possessions (of which there are few; we're low level), claiming that I was forced away quietly at knifepoint, then got beaten up and looted, losing the artifact. Then I could go "shopping" alone, visit the church, and get back my items (which the priests were keeping). Good idea? If you have a better one, please tell me.
Horseshoe_Hermit 05-28-06, 09:00 PM	What's the intelligence of your character? Because unless he's got Int 15, as a DM, I'm not buying any cunning plan like it. Anywho... What I would do is yes.... get some people to beat you up... Unfortunately, they'll probably *actually* beat you up and take all your stuff. Or at least your party will expect it. I'd say you want to blame a random thief, or perhaps a mage who softened you up and was after the magic.... You scared him off, or maybe he scared you off... that would explain why you'd still look in mostly good health and have other items. Say you went to a bar but you got waylaid or something...
Ashok_Lal 05-28-06, 09:07 PM	QUOTE My guy, the chaotic evil psychopath who'd kill the entire party in their sleeps if there was no risk and one copper in it for him, they all think I'm a sneaky, shifty, suspicious person, so they'll suspect me. I see your cannundrum being evil and a creep are not traits for trust. I dont think thay are going to belive you. Especialy if you have a history of betrayal and deceat. How much is this artifact worth to you? Would you be willing to kill the party in there sleep? Well reading the first line of the quote i pulled from your opening post i wold say YES! I beleave that the Artifact would be worth more than the copper piece. There would be risks! If a TPK is not in your plan then??? Do the party know that you are CE? Will thay let you hold it for any length of time? Can you trust the thives & assassins "r" us? (you are going to give them the Artifact, thay will give you a dagger in the back) Wat ever you do proceed with caution!!
STAT 05-28-06, 09:19 PM	Well you could try and get a message to your guild that you have it and for them to send some people to "attack you" and get the item that way. It'd probably be fairly easy to pull your punches and get it to them that way. Although, there is approximately 100% chance the other players will try to track this item down. So it's a tough thing to attempt anyway you slice it.
Watchdog_of_Hades 05-28-06, 09:38 PM	Horseshoe: I'd have the church beat me up and temporarily hold my stuff, not some random bum off the street. Admittedly, my church is full of loopy kleptomaniacs like me, but seeing as my god really wants this thing, I'd bet the clerics would be kind of scared of actually annoying someone who just did their deity a big favor. Ashok: too many risks. There's a level 10 fighter in the group who could shake off my coup de grace (even with sneak attack) and knock me down to about -30 in one hit. Stat: thanks. One problem, though, in the following paragraph. I forgot to mention that we're just outside the city. I can't get in because there's some murderer running around (not me, in case you're wondering), so the gates are closed until sunrise. That means I have to go in with the rest of the party, which will then go immediately to the other church. Also because of this, I cannot arrange anything with the clergy or anyone else inside the city ahead of time.
Reversefigure4 05-28-06, 09:46 PM	If your party aren't 9 INT fools, they're going to suspect you no matter what you do. When the shifty guy in the party disappears with the valuable artifact, comes back without it, and claims he's been robbed, anybody rolling above a 1 on Sense Motive is going to suspect them. I would "get abducted" right in front of your party - step too far into a side alley, shout for help, then go invisible or hide so your party can't find you. Then you run off, contact the church, pretend to be beaten, etc. But don't be surprised if your party still doesn't believe you. I'd stay out of it as far as I could, really. Let it be delivered to the good church, then let the Thieves Guild know that you got it as far as their city, and they should do the rest.
SokenzanMarauder 05-28-06, 09:52 PM	I pose the question: How did a C/E character get into a good party? If I were them I'd have killed you already. -Gene
X-Codes 05-28-06, 09:54 PM	What level are you guys again? What's your build? Blackguard? Do you have a familiar or a companion strong enough to carry the artifact over the city walls unnoticed? I'm thinking Sewer entrance. Any evil church worth a copper piece has at least one secret enterance to their church in the local sewer-ways or some other system that leads out of the city for a stealthy escape. It would also be relatively guard-free. Hurry in through that enterance and come back to the camp with nothing but the clothes on your back with a gang of apparent bandits to rob the rest of the party. Make certain you really outnumber and surround them so it would appear unwise for that fighter to fight back. Tell them you had to sell them out or they woulda killed you, that should make you appear more believable. =P
STAT 05-28-06, 10:11 PM	What level are you guys again? What's your build? Blackguard? Do you have a familiar or a companion strong enough to carry the artifact over the city walls unnoticed? I'm thinking Sewer entrance. Any evil church worth a copper piece has at least one secret enterance to their church in the local sewer-ways or some other system that leads out of the city for a stealthy escape. It would also be relatively guard-free. Hurry in through that enterance and come back to the camp with nothing but the clothes on your back with a gang of apparent bandits to rob the rest of the party. Make certain you really outnumber and surround them so it would appear unwise for that fighter to fight back. Tell them you had to sell them out or they woulda killed you, that should make you appear more believable. =P Using the parties mistrust against them, an excelent disception. :devil: One other idea is if all else fails and you end up going into the city with the party try and find some guy/guys and pick a fight with them. If you have sleight of hand you could try and get the artifact onto the guy's person. Or if you can get away from the party for a second you can drop the artifact someplace inconspicious while in the city. How big is the artifact? Size might be a limiting factor on these plans. *edit* Or you could use the fight as a distraction to give you time to hide the artifact. Man can't believe I didn't think of that when I was writing those.
kelvinaw273 05-28-06, 10:13 PM	All right. I'm pretty sure that the people in my D&D party don't read the boards, so... We just got an extremely powerful magical artifact. My guy, the chaotic evil psychopath who'd kill the entire party in their sleeps if there was no risk and one copper in it for him, needs to deliver the artifact to his church of Thieves and Assassins "R" Us. The rest of the party wants to get the artifact to the clergy of a wimpy good god. I also want the rest of the party to not know that I intentionally betrayed them. Unfortunately, they all think I'm a sneaky, shifty, suspicious person, so they'll suspect me. Fortunately, the item was forced to switch hands during a battle with a demon that wanted the item. I was the closest ally-ish person, so the artifact is now in my possession. Abbreviated question in the next paragraph. How do I deliver an item to people the party doesn't want to have the item without the party knowing I gave it over willingly? Pretty much, I need to slip away for an hour or two. I could, maybe, run away when nobody's looking at me, have the church beat me unconcious, then wander around to find the party, missing my valuable possessions (of which there are few; we're low level), claiming that I was forced away quietly at knifepoint, then got beaten up and looted, losing the artifact. Then I could go "shopping" alone, visit the church, and get back my items (which the priests were keeping). Good idea? If you have a better one, please tell me. Much easier idea for the Church of Horribleness! You sneak off, take them the item, givce it to them, they take your stuff, beat you unconscious .... and they have you murdered, your body stripped and dumped somewhere obvious, maybe branded with the mark of a nearby orc-tribe or something to throw the PCs off the scent. What ... you wanted to live? Well would you trust somebody as evil as you are or worse not to kill you if you are effectively at your mercy and it is the most convenient way of (a) throwing the good guys who will want this item off the scent and (b) getting hold of some cool stuff as well (that is, your stuff). You have to admit, it works a dream for them. Why should they care about you? they are evil, after all. Why should they reward you if they can take the credit? Somehow, the prospect of handing this item over to the wimpy good god does not seem so bad now, does it? :D
fefnir 05-28-06, 10:19 PM	Im not sure if any one else has said this but why don’t you slip away for a little while and then have the church of evil R us kill them in there sleep. If some how they get revived they wouldn’t know you did it. They would just know that some group of evil people killed them and they probably would want revenge.
SoldierOfFortune187 05-28-06, 10:22 PM	Yet another, "I'm evil in a party that is not" thread. You're party is going to suspect you. You said it yourself that what they think of your character. Anything that goes wrong can and will be put squarely on the shoulders of the one party member who doesn't seem to be a team player. And it will be the perfect excuse for any who so want it to eject the character from the party... or plant a knife in the back. A smart party/DM will keep your character's nature in mind, and use any means (natural, magical, etc) available to find out if your character had -any- intent on 'losing' the item, regardless of the circumstance. Your 'best' bet is to get the item back into posession of another, trustworthy party member, and without noticeably trying, fail to bail them out of situations where they could potentially lose the item to a member of "No honor among thieves" church of backstabbers.
Watchdog_of_Hades 05-28-06, 11:33 PM	Some people, I've been to lazy to remember names, have missed these points: I can't get into the city without the party. We'll all be prepared to get into the city as soon as the gates open, so there's no way to sneak in in advance (aside from the sewers; I'll talk to the DM about that, good idea). The people in the church might not want to risk ticking off the god who grants them their spells. Harming the person who just gave the god one awesome artifact might do that. Also not mentioned: the impression the party has of me is a thievy little sneak whose priority list goes like this: 1. Don't die. 2. Don't experience pain (unless #3 applies). 3. Don't do anything that has potential risk or pain unless there's a substantial reward. Getting beat up intentionally would violate rules 2 and 3, since it would involve pain. I have no reason to make the artifact "disappear." Why would I hand it over to a church of thieves and backstabbers who would sneak attack and loot my body as soon as look at me? (That's how I'd portray them to the party, at least.) I'm not particularly devout. (Admittedly, I can't use the artifact, but going to the church is potentially risky; see rule #3.) Sure. I could definitely sell it. But what am I going to do? Set up a stall in the marketplace advertising "Beer! Drugs! Crossbow bolts! Major artifacts!" or something? No way. Go up to a person rich enough to afford having me beat up and looted in public so that I get a good price for the item? No way. And one last thing: SoldierOfFortune, what do you define as an "I'm evil in a party that's not" thread? A thread like, "My party wants to kill me CE PC, what do I do?" This thread asks the question; how do I betray the party? Here's something that a good PC could do: infiltrate the enemy's castle, then betray him. Would you post on that thread, "Oh boy, another 'I'm good in an evil party' thread?" I doubt it. The only difference is an N (PC vs. NPC).
kelvinaw273 05-29-06, 12:26 AM	I can't get into the city without the party. We'll all be prepared to get into the city as soon as the gates open, so there's no way to sneak in in advance (aside from the sewers; I'll talk to the DM about that, good idea). Then if the party has any sense at all they will head straight for the wimpy-god's temple and deposit artifact there at once. Nevermind, maybe you can still go to the evil temple and tell them where it is and get a finder's fee. The people in the church might not want to risk ticking off the god who grants them their spells. Harming the person who just gave the god one awesome artifact might do that. Why? He's an evil god, after all. It might be more kudos, not less, to the one who kills you. Some evil gods are like that. And anyway, why would you want him to have the artefact? If he destroys the world he destroys you with it where are you going to live? The problem you have is that for a betrayal this major it is going to be hard for the party to NOT find out, in the end. And if they do, and they attack the evil temple, what do you do then? I see PKs a-coming and you getting blamed.
SoldierOfFortune187 05-29-06, 12:28 AM	what do you define as an "I'm evil in a party that's not" thread? There have been a number of threads in the very recent past that have been posed as questions, and in some cases rants by players because they are at odds with how to do something or having done something because it conflicts with the rest of the party's alignment. I've gone on record before as saying while I am not necessarily against players having differing alignments, it has to be done without compromising the whole of the party's enjoyment. By this I mean that play shouldn't stop because you (as a player) want to do something you feel is good roleplaying that the rest of the party will be hurt by. This can be anything from 'borrowing' items/money (alright alright, outright STEALING) from the rest of the party, even with the intention of just handing it back when its pointed out (think Kenders), to swiping a choice piece of treasure before its seen by the party (hey, I'm a rogue, its what I do!), and flat out betraying the party. Sure, your goals are furthered by it, but this is a team game (usually) and it typically only serves to upset the other players, most of whom do not take kindly to having to guard from attack both without and within. You are having fun, they are brooding over it, wondering what you will do next to stab them in the back. Things like this can be handled in some teams, and I speak more as a generality than a rule that it can't be pulled off smoothly, it takes knowing your circle of players (which I don't). Final word is that if you must play a character who has tendencies to 'betray' their party, don't be upset if as players and characters they start to turn against you (i.e. Don't think you can/should be able to 'have secrets' from them).
TheFallenWriter 05-29-06, 12:30 AM	Simple. Make a replica with Nystil's Magical Aura and an make it minorly magical. And I wouldn't make a intelligence prequisite, becuase who is to say the orginization he belongs to didn't help him along. ~The Fallen DM
nephtis 05-29-06, 02:06 AM	Oh, I did that once as an undercover Zhentarim... Get a message to your fellows where to find the party, have them play the part of mysterious but helpful contact (the kind that the party might want to keep in contact with), have a nice dinner (poison, not deadly but enough to put them out) and while your comrades are asleep give the item to your true allies. Afterwards, claim you were asleep along with the rest of them and curse the bastards that tricked you. ;-) ---- For me, it didn't turn out that well... The plan itself worked like a charm, but my PC was killed later on and my new character had to go all the way to Zhentil Keep to retrieve the item... Bad luck...
Varia 05-29-06, 03:51 AM	If you go with the mugging, then kiss most of your gear goodbye. You cant get the stuff back later because anybody with an IQ greater than a carrot is going to recognise it. "Wait a minute- thats the sword you claimed was stolen along with the artifact..." You may be able to get equivalent gear in exchange for yours, but you cannot get the exact same gear back without giving yourself away. As for being mugged- can you arrange to be mugged where at least some of the party can see it happen, but are unable to intervene in time? Forinstance if theyre too far away? That would help your credibility, and would mean you wouldnt have to give up all your stuff for a while since the muggers wouldnt have time to loot your armor before fleeing? Especially helpful since the armor is the most recognisable item you have too. *Hugs* Varia
Gauze Fireforge 05-29-06, 04:14 AM	All right. I'm pretty sure that the people in my D&D party don't read the boards, so... We just got an extremely powerful magical artifact. My guy, the chaotic evil psychopath who'd kill the entire party in their sleeps if there was no risk and one copper in it for him, needs to deliver the artifact to his church of Thieves and Assassins "R" Us. The rest of the party wants to get the artifact to the clergy of a wimpy good god. I also want the rest of the party to not know that I intentionally betrayed them. Unfortunately, they all think I'm a sneaky, shifty, suspicious person, so they'll suspect me. Fortunately, the item was forced to switch hands during a battle with a demon that wanted the item. I was the closest ally-ish person, so the artifact is now in my possession. Abbreviated question in the next paragraph. How do I deliver an item to people the party doesn't want to have the item without the party knowing I gave it over willingly? Pretty much, I need to slip away for an hour or two. I could, maybe, run away when nobody's looking at me, have the church beat me unconcious, then wander around to find the party, missing my valuable possessions (of which there are few; we're low level), claiming that I was forced away quietly at knifepoint, then got beaten up and looted, losing the artifact. Then I could go "shopping" alone, visit the church, and get back my items (which the priests were keeping). Good idea? If you have a better one, please tell me. Dont run away with the item, I sugest burying it. Bury it where you know you can find it later or even better, give the location of the artifact to the Assassin guild for them to retrieve. Now the 64 dollar question is do you guys run a watch? If you dont, burying it should be easy. If you do but you only have one party member on watch, it will be easy too as when it is your watch, you do with it as you like. It will be difficult if you have more than a 1 man watch though. I dont know what your character can or cant do and the size of the artifact but presuming you could have it on your person, you can always leave when you are on watch, saying you need some privacy to go to the toilet, dig your hole, put the artifact there, pretend to do a number two and then cover up the hole. The difficult part will be the lying through your teeth part. If you successfully bury the item without being caught, pretend that you are none the wiser and steer away from any conversation relating to the artifact. Also, try to always be within eyesight of one of your party members once the item is buried which will hopefully help defuse any "where did you put it" and "I saw you head off to the Mage shop on our way into town" questions. "The best lie is one where they believe they already know the answer" and "Never lie, merely withhold the whole truth" are two ideaologies of most characters I play (well non-good ones at least). When someone asks "Where is the artifact?" You reply, "well it was on me when the group gave it to me last but now..." or "When did you see the artifact last?" "I last saw it in my hand" You get the drift. Trying to make the party believe they know the answer is more difficult but would be easier if you have a random encounter during the night. I suggest early on in the discussion throwing up many plausible scenario's where you could have lost the artifact or it was stolen from you. "hey, when we were walking into town this guy bumped into me, and then apologised, and quickly walked away, I didn;t think anything was amiss.." "Those damn theives guild members are everywhere you know" Anyways, good luck and let us know how it goes
Drachasor 05-29-06, 04:17 AM	Hmm, are you sure your group is alright with having another player and party member behave this way? If they aren't and if they never play this way then you are just going to be ******* your friends (and quite possibly the DM) off to no end. I know that personally I'd hate playing a D&D game where this sort of thing goes on*. The problem is that D&D essentially assumes that the players are going to cooperate with each other. Certainly many groups also assume this. Hence this is very much like stabbing someone in the back if you are in such a group. They trust you, the player, not to behave in such a way, so they will not expect your character to behave in that manner. So I'd talk to the DM and make very, very certain you are in a group that will be alright with you acting like this. -Drachasor *There are other roleplaying games focused on this sort of activity, and I'd definitely prefer one of those for this.
X-Codes 05-29-06, 04:24 AM	Hmm, are you sure your group is alright with having another player and party member behave this way? If they aren't and if they never play this way then you are just going to be ******* your friends (and quite possibly the DM) off to no end. I know that personally I'd hate playing a D&D game where this sort of thing goes on*. The problem is that D&D essentially assumes that the players are going to cooperate with each other. Certainly many groups also assume this. Hence this is very much like stabbing someone in the back if you are in such a group. They trust you, the player, not to behave in such a way, so they will not expect your character to behave in that manner. So I'd talk to the DM and make very, very certain you are in a group that will be alright with you acting like this. -Drachasor *There are other roleplaying games focused on this sort of activity, and I'd definitely prefer one of those for this. D&D doesn't assume anything. It's a set of rules, nothing more. Metagaming is also a really stupid reason to not do this. If the DM didn't think that this was OK then why did he tell the player that the assassins guild would pay for the item? Each character makes their own impact on the storyline. Just because your character makes one that isn't expected doesn't mean that he's automatically an ***hat, and if people hold a real-life grudge against him because of this then they need to grow up and spend some time out of the basement.
Witch 05-29-06, 04:37 AM	What's the intelligence of your character? Because unless he's got Int 15, as a DM, I'm not buying any cunning plan like it. Int 15 is a lot higher than average. If your intelligence, or anyone on these boards were translated into D&D terms, I doubt a lot of people would have higher than 15 intelligence.
Drachasor 05-29-06, 04:48 AM	D&D doesn't assume anything. It's a set of rules, nothing more. Metagaming is also a really stupid reason to not do this. If the DM didn't think that this was OK then why did he tell the player that the assassins guild would pay for the item? Each character makes their own impact on the storyline. Just because your character makes one that isn't expected doesn't mean that he's automatically an ***hat, and if people hold a real-life grudge against him because of this then they need to grow up and spend some time out of the basement. No D&D, the books, most definitely assume the party pretty much cooperates on everything. That is why there is really nothing detailing how to handle players that backstab other players, betray the party, etc. Take a look at the PHB and DMG. In addition, many groups have an unwritten understanding that this is the case as well, and betraying that understanding is much, much worse than breaking a rule the group doesn't really care about (even if it is RAW). If you go against the unwritten, but understood, agreements that group has then you are violating their expectations for the game and ruining their time. There is every reason to expect the players to get angry at you for doing that. In a very real sense it is just like cheating in the game by fudging rolls; it is understood that people won't do this, but that doesn't mean it is said aloud. Now I am not saying every group out there has this unwritten rule about backstabbing other party members, but merely that many do. It is wise to make sure your group is not one of these if you plan on doing some sort of backstab. This sort of problem, a misunderstanding and lack of communication concerning WHY everyone is coming to the table is a primary source of friction in D&D games. Best to try to figure this out before you do anything that could cause a bunch of friends to get annoyed. Lastly, as far as I can tell, Watchdog has not mentioned any of his plans to his DM yet. At least that is what I gather from his posts (perhaps he just didn't mention it). Please correct me if I am wrong on that.
stealth_monkey 05-29-06, 06:43 AM	The people in the church might not want to risk ticking off the god who grants them their spells. Harming the person who just gave the god one awesome artifact might do that. That's the major flaw in your plan. You're talking about an evil god, one that thieves and assassins find fit to worship. Explain why they would be punished for killing you? Are you getting paid for this service? If the answer is yes, then I would have no doubt that killing you, and thus giving their god the item for free would have them favoured by their god, not punished. If I were the dm, and you were getting paid for the service, you'd be dead before you reached the door. If you weren't paid, then you're now a servant of the god, whether you like it or not. Refuse a mission from the church and they'll kill you. This reminds me why I don't allow neutral/chaotic evil in my campaigns
Radijs 05-29-06, 08:03 AM	It could work but it would be a bit far-fetched and if the party already suspects you then its not going to work. Now an alternative I thought of was this: Get a copy made of the artefact. A good forgery thats going to fool your friends and the wimpy church, at least initially. You can use Nyrstull's magic aura to give it the appropriate magical aura in case they scrutinize it more carefully. It won't hold up to Identify but it will past a detect magic. So you hand it over telling the other characters that it should be brought to the wimpy church. Leaving you with plenty of time to deliver the real artefact at your leisure.
boytbpc 05-29-06, 08:16 AM	Sorry, I skipped half the thread, but here is my idea. Pull a Judas. First thing, give it to the weakest guy in the party. Then go and tell your thieves guild who has it, then have them rough you up (non-lethal damage), tell your party that the local guards caught you picking someones pocket and beat you up, but because you paid them off the let you go, then one good wack will put you under your current hp and you will be unconcious, but not dead because of the non-lethal damage. When you come to, half your party is dead, the item is where you want it, and you obviously aren't guilty because you were there fighting with your party, and you didn't even have the item. Boytbpc P.S. I've played the CE in a N/NE party, and I think it is childish and not enjoyable.
Watchdog_of_Hades 05-29-06, 01:37 PM	Some people are forgetting this: I can't get into the city without the party! I have about two hours to do whatever it is I'm going to do before we are inside the city! I CANNOT talk to the church about hey can you help me or do anything else that involves being inside the city! Exception: I might be able to go in through the sewers, but even then, there are only about 10 hours before we enter the city. I also have to make sure the church gets it myself. Burying it was a good idea, but then people I don't want to get it might find it. Boytbpc: good idea. The problem is in big words, above. And I find it extremely enjoyable, as does the rest of the party, whose players know that I intend to betray them. Most kids, on the other hand, wouldn't even think of betraying the party. Stealth_Monkey: I'm not getting paid for it. I'm just hoping that the god will be grateful and maybe grant me a favor.
kelvinaw273 05-29-06, 03:13 PM	Some people are forgetting this: I can't get into the city without the party! I have about two hours to do whatever it is I'm going to do before we are inside the city! I CANNOT talk to the church about hey can you help me or do anything else that involves being inside the city! Exception: I might be able to go in through the sewers, but even then, there are only about 10 hours before we enter the city. I also have to make sure the church gets it myself. Burying it was a good idea, but then people I don't want to get it might find it. Boytbpc: good idea. The problem is in big words, above. And I find it extremely enjoyable, as does the rest of the party, whose players know that I intend to betray them. Most kids, on the other hand, wouldn't even think of betraying the party. Odds of you managing it are good, but getting away with it? No, I think under circumstances I think you are probably going to have to burn your bridges. Stealth_Monkey: I'm not getting paid for it. I'm just hoping that the god will be grateful and maybe grant me a favor. So, the wimpy-god temple will almost certainly reward you all, although it might not be huge (or even just favours owed like a Raise Dead when you need one), whereas the Big Ugly God of Nastiness might reward you with a lot ... or might not ... or might killl you (ask yourself what you would do in their shoes - yes, that's right: scream that the item is fake and have you beaten up and thrown out of the temple under threat of reporting you to the authorities for fraud and confiscate the item and most of your stuff). Remember, these guys are evil and you don't know them. You are nothing to them, save that you might have something that they want. If you are prepared to betray the party for it, your friends, what might they do? Just how smart if your character? It strikes me that this is a choice between zero-risk, good gains OR high risk, high gains/high losses. Now ask yourself this: what is your character's bigger motivation - self-preservation or greed? If he normally takes insane risks to gain a little, go for it. If he doesn't, forget it.
Watchdog_of_Hades 05-29-06, 04:03 PM	The good people won't give us a single copper for giving them the artifact. Why we're supposed to give them the item: they resurrected us and laid a geas on us to get them this artifact. The geas has long since worn off. I doubt that it's impossible to get the artifact to the evil temple without the party blaming me. I just have to get away, get caught stealing, pay off the guards to let me go, and say I was mugged.
Zheon 05-29-06, 04:29 PM	hmm. try to get your hands on a 'quaals feather token (bird)' or similar magic. send it to the evil church and tell them to cast a geas spell on you as soon as you walk into the city. then, technically, it wasnt your fault. (i never checked to see if this idea was already posted. sorry if it was.)
Watchdog_of_Hades 05-29-06, 06:04 PM	Good idea. However, if I can get to a wizard that can cast Whispering Wind, a merchant with a Feather Token, or another fairly long-range messaging item/spell, it would take just as long to do that as to get to the church.
Ashok_Lal 05-29-06, 09:09 PM	Quite the problem! CONS 1. You are a coward (don't take that the wrong way. Just from your own discription of your charicter. I like it) 2. You can't get a message to the evils 3. Your party, for good reason don't trust you. 4. Greed drives you to surrender the artifact to the evils 5. Even if you get the artifact to the evils your safety is far from secure. 6. You can't get into the city without the party 7. The party will want to go straight to the good's 8. The evils don't know you have it & have no way to back you up in the time available. PRO'S 1. You are in possesion of the artifact 2. You may be well compensated for the atrifact. OPTIONS 1. Take the pro/con list and say its not worth it. 2. This is left field.... Don't worry what the party thinks. Make a run for it once in the gate. If you get away you can take the artifact to the evils. You will NOT be welcome back to the party. The DM could use your charicter as an NPC. You make another charicter that is not evil and play nicely with the rest of the party. Also giving the game a great flavor and hook 3. Tell the evils that due to circumstances beyond your control, the artifact had to be taken to the goods but you know where. You can then come up with a new plan, that does not put you right in the fireing line.
Edwind 05-29-06, 09:53 PM	You could contact said evil church, give them the item and all that and then fake your own death...How can that NOT be great. After giving them the item bring some back with an already dead body, Yell for them to help you and drink a potion of invisibility then run like hell away, have the body burned to avoid identification, and there you go. You're set. Random Edit: Or you could do the above, go off at night, kill some random guy defile his body dress him up in your clothes and run away, they'll blame it on that murderer guy running around and the party will think HE has the artifact.
Watchdog_of_Hades 05-29-06, 10:39 PM	Just for the sake of keeping my level 5 character, as opposed to being bumped down to level 1, I'd like to be able to get back into the party later.
kelvinaw273 05-30-06, 01:13 AM	Then don't betray them, and rest safe in the knowledge that if you get killed again there is a good church that will extend you credit on resurrections. I know it may sit badly with your character to not be able to screw them to get more money, but if you want to stay in with your friends and have that security, that's the price you pay for it. You are in a classic bind of the evil player in a good party, where your instincts for self-interest and your real best interests lie in opposite directions. Swallow it down and live with it. Maybe the goodies will reward you anyway, you never know.
_ecco_ 05-30-06, 03:34 PM	Fun discussion, looks like I'm done lurking... Seems to me like the biggest problem on your hands is time. With more time you could potentially contact your evil church or create some sort of diversion to distract your party from the artifact. There certainly have been some good ideas: using the party's mistrust of you againt them for one. The key I think, is that murder who was fortunately forced to make camp nearby (assuming that the gates have been closed to keep him out). Not sure what kind of items/equipment you have access to, but depending how tough this murderer is, you may be able to strike a deal with him. First, hide the artifact someplace, then leave your party, sneak up on him and cut him a little bit. Say that the dagger was poisoned and you will give him the antidote so long as he does exactly what you say. Tell him that there are a group of rich adventurers sleeping nearby. Offer to let him keep their gold/items/whatever so long as he does not kill them. (to make it more believable, say you guys can split the spoils or something). Head back to camp and lie down, but dont go to sleep. from there one of three things could occur. 1. The murder honours his word, sneaks in, steals peoples items and leaves. the party wakes up furious and goes on a fruitless search for the murdered/artifact while you have all the time you need to arrange the pickup/delivery of the real artifact. 2. The muderer honours his word, sneaks in but somebody wakes up. You can take the opportunity to kill him, and say he must have already been here once and taken the artifact. (if he wanted to steal lots of gear, it would take a few trips.) 3. You're awake, so you can start a ruccus if he sneaks in and tries to kill the lot of you instead. If he flees (it is unlikley he would want to fight the lot of you) claim he took the artifact. Again you are forced to hunt him down buying time to arrange pickup/delivery _________________________________ Alternatively you could just run up to the gates and beg to be let in, claiming that the murderer has kiled your group and is only a short distance off. I doubt the guards would stand there and watch you be killed below the gates (especially if money is offered). Then go in, deliver your object. When the party asks where you have been, say that while you moved off to relieve yourself, the murderer attacked you, forcing a knife to your back, taking the artifact and running off.
Watchdog_of_Hades 05-30-06, 06:35 PM	Alternatively you could just run up to the gates and beg to be let in, claiming that the murderer has kiled your group and is only a short distance off. I doubt the guards would stand there and watch you be killed below the gates (especially if money is offered). Then go in, deliver your object. When the party asks where you have been, say that while you moved off to relieve yourself, the murderer attacked you, forcing a knife to your back, taking the artifact and running off. ... ... You're a genius. :bow:
kelvinaw273 05-30-06, 08:13 PM	... ... You're a genius. :bow: And if the party find out from the gate guards that you were alone?
STAT 05-30-06, 08:40 PM	And if the party find out from the gate guards that you were alone? Or he could disguise himself as someone else and when the party finds out from the guards that someone had begged to be let in the OP can say, "Hey, that must have been the murderer!" Would still probably be suspicious but it might throw enough doubt in that the party wouldn't kill him.
Lincoln Hills 05-31-06, 03:12 PM	Sophisticated treachery might win the day for you here. Don't try to outfox the rest of the party, just exploit their good natures! 1. Go along with the party. Deliver the artifact to the Good-aligned church. Receive all the benefits that you would if you were one of the good guys. 2. While you are at the church, case the joint thoroughly (using the usual excuses). Determine the likeliest places for them to keep the artifact. However, you should show absolutely no interest in the artifact once it's out of your hands. Leave the temple with the other PCs. Wave good-bye. The quest is over! On to the next adventure! 4. Now you plan the heist. That very night is ideal - the longer the good clerics have this artifact, the heavier the security. During the early evening, leave the inn, assume a disguise and go hire some underlings (any local mercenaries will do for this part). Their orders are to infiltrate the good church and steal something (a publicly known object, not the artifact!) to be returned to "you". The priests will be alert for efforts to steal the artifact and will almost certainly catch this group, spend a great deal of time interrogating them, and disbelieve any claims they make that they don't even know about any 'artifact'. If the church's security looks really heavy, you might want to use your fellow PCs as a second distraction - hire a messenger to summon certain PCs to the church. ("No, don't go wake your companion - the High Priest wants to speak with you away from his ears.") The time they waste in argument with the priests is just more time for you to finish your work. 5. While their High Priest and his bodyguards are off interrogating prisoners (and the Number Two Priest is off talking with your fellow PCs), you'll have the best odds of sneaking in from a different approach, infiltrating their vault and making off with the artifact. 6. Sneak back to the inn. (If necessary, hire another gang of thugs back in Step 4 to involve the PCs in a street brawl on their way back to your inn, so that you can be sure of being snug in bed before they come back to check on you.) Concealing the artifact somewhere outside the inn building keeps it out of the way of locate object and similar sniffing: I'd advise waiting to retrieve it and turn it over to the evil church until the heat is entirely off. 7. End result - The good church rewards you: the evil church rewards you: the other PCs have nothing tangible tying you to the artifact: and you get to go on being a greasy little vomit-blob.
Kraleck 06-01-06, 09:30 AM	If your party can't search worth ****, toss the thing over the walls (if possible) and find it later. If that is not an option, swipe your party's weapons (hope there are no Monks/Imp. Unarmed Strikers) and bury them as fast and as discreetly as possible (with other valuables and non-valuables as well). Remember that sleeping characters take -10 penalties on Listen checks. If grappling hooks and climbing gear are in your possession, scale the walls and try not to get caught.
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-01-06, 10:32 AM	Ooph. Man, that's a good idea, Lincoln. Sadly, there's a problem. I didn't mention... this temple of the good god is the one with the priest that cast a True Resurrection on me. I'm 5th level.
Sereno 06-01-06, 12:27 PM	Just for the sake of keeping my level 5 character, as opposed to being bumped down to level 1, I'd like to be able to get back into the party later. Unless you *completely* snow them, why would they let you back in? Even if you got "mugged" and the artifact "stolen", I still wouldn't let you back in the party because you were stupid enough to get separated and mugged of an important artifact that the party was contracted to retrieve. And, this is all aside from the fact that I would suspect you (obviously OOC, but IC, too). If you're going to do this ... I say do it up big! Burn your bridges! Then turn over your sheet to the DM to become a recurring NPC villain and make a new character.
9JACK9 06-02-06, 10:49 AM	... you know that the evil church that you're working with isn't going to let you live, right? The second that they have it, you are now what BBEG's like to call "a loose thread". See, in books and movies, these little hirelings/ thugs/ cannon fodder are left alive, so the heros can find out where the BBEG's hideout is. You, on the other hand, might not be so lucky. Dude, I got news for you, they're evil. They're not gonna "beat you up, and 'make it look like' they took your lunch money". What are you, Chaotic Stupid? You really think they're going to PAY you? In case you didn't know this, you're not the only person in the world who would kill people in their sleep. My guy, the chaotic evil psychopath who'd kill the entire party in their sleeps if there was no risk and one copper in it for him ... ya... you're character has no emotional attachment to people he's been working with for the past three weeks, and you think 3 or 4 EVIL clerics are just gonna cut you a check for a couple thousand gold on their temple doorstep? How's your 5th level Will Save, buddy? Enough to hold off 1 or 2 castings of "Hold Person"? You fail one of those, a cleric's gonna cut your neck open while you stand there like a dumb***. Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked. How bout' this? Does the artifact glow under "Detect Magic"? If it dosn't, can you make a copy of it, and keep that in the party? If it's a small box of some sort, a decent "Forgery" check to make a duplicate might not be a bad idea. Give the copy to the fighter in the party, somebody with a sucktastic "Spot" check, and bide your time till you can get rid of the real one. That would also help to shift the blame when they deliver it to the good clerics... But only if the artifact didn't show up magical... (because you can't fake that if the wizard casts "Detect Magic" again. Still, he might not! You never know.) Still, it's a moot point. Unless your DM is a boyscout, you're not going to live long enough to ever see the outcome.
TarlSS 06-02-06, 12:31 PM	Intelligence of 15? Uh. An intelligence and wisdom of 10, even 9 is enough for someone to make up a good and cunning plan, and is reasonable to expect from any player. Unless your player is exceptionally good at larceny or competant at military tactics (Say, an officer of the military or a mafia boss) Then there's really no reason to assume why his plans would be any smarter than a normal persons. Anyone with an average intelligence can get into a decent state school, and in many cases an Ivy League school, and be quite capable of forming devious plans. It's really higher level thought, such as science and math where IQ becomes significant. Only at 6 does a person become "Uh, where did he go George?" and mentally retarded. An 8 intelligence person is probably a hick who didn't graduate from highschool and lives on a farm. Even than such people are capable of good planning.
Tormsskull 06-02-06, 01:07 PM	I need more info to give you the perfect plan. 1.) What does this artifact do? 2.) What class are you? 3.) Any magical items at your disposal? Now, fooling your fellow party mates is an artform, you have to be very good at it. First of all, do you have the cooperation of your DM? If not, this plan is never going to work. If you do, ask the DM to pass you a note when you are about to enter the city. The note will be blank, but you will respond with "Guys, I think there is something up with this artifact. It is communicating with me in my mind. It says that the church isn't what we really think it is. It has be infiltrated at the higher levels by an evil presence." When your teammates start to respond with their blabber, you say "Wait, its saying something else." Then the Dm says "Do you want to listen?" To which you say "Yeah." The DM says makes a will save. You roll (hopefully you don't roll outstanding) fail the save that doesn't really exist, and go running off towards the evil temple. Now, I am assuming you're a rogue or someone with some stealth skills. Once you are out of range of the party, you hide and lay low for a while. Then you travel to evil group, make the hand-off. This, as I said, all requires the assistence of your DM. He isn't actually doing anything except for verbal cues. As a DM I have done this before for some players that wanted to be more mysterious in the group, and even once when a player was trying to flee the other PCs that captured him. Be forewarned: Some players aren't very good at separating game knowledge from player knowledge, and will even treat you negatively IRL for game actions. If you're dealing with a mature group of people, this will be a lot of fun when you finally get to tell them how you orchestrated the whole thing (after the campaign ends or your character dies or whatever). As far as the evil group killing you, it is definitely a possibility. If you come off as a dedicated "I'll do anything you tell me to Dark Master" type character they'll probably keep you around. Anyway, good luck.
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-02-06, 06:53 PM	Look; the church temporarily sent a 15th-level to help us out of a tight spot. I'm tempted to say that because he didn't kill us all and take the artifact, the church thinks that I'm doing a better job than anyone else they can spare and they should let me keep on travelling with this party to get the other 2 artifacts they want. Oh, I didn't mention that. They need two more items and our party's doing a great job securing them. They're going to kill me to loot my body? Here's what I have aside from the artifact: clothes, a rapier hilt (stupid demon burned off the blade), and a crossbow. Hey, we just got a major art- Whoa! That guy has clothes! Let's kill 'im! Gonna kill me to keep a secret? What secret? There are people in my party who can find the church, piece of cake, without my help. Besides, as soon as I give them the artifact, I bet that someone's gonna open a Gate to my god's plane and hand it over. No point to go to the church then. Tormsskull: 1: It enhances divination magic, but it only functions at very specific locations. 2: Rogue 5, on the path to assassin 1. 3: No magical items, even if I steal from the party.
kelvinaw273 06-03-06, 03:32 AM	They're going to kill me to loot my body? Here's what I have aside from the artifact: clothes, a rapier hilt (stupid demon burned off the blade), and a crossbow. Hey, we just got a major art- Whoa! That guy has clothes! Let's kill 'im! Gonna kill me to keep a secret? What secret? There are people in my party who can find the church, piece of cake, without my help. Besides, as soon as I give them the artifact, I bet that someone's gonna open a Gate to my god's plane and hand it over. No point to go to the church then. They may well not want the possession of the artefact to be common knowledge - and why would they give it to their god? Why wouldn't they use it themselves for their own advantage? Wake up and smell the cooking, these guys are EVIL. They are not the 'same as the good guys, just on a different team'. They are power-hungry, selfish 'we owe nothing to anybody' types. They will kill you just to be able to say "look what WE found", they will kill you so that nobody will say "the church of X had Y". When dealing with evil people you are dealing with a group whose intention to reward you lasts as long as they are benefitting more from the arrangement than you are, and stops there. They are also the people whose desire not to kill you and relieve you of your valuables (especially if they just paid you said valuables) lasts only as long as your ability to stop them. Good may be stupid, but good guys can TRUST each other. Evil may be smart, but stands alone or else lies with a knife in the back.
Jaerys 06-03-06, 05:54 AM	When first we practice to deceive . . . Judging by the sheer number of people capable of comming up with variations of the, "thieves mugged me" cover story I don't see why it would require a high int. No offense to the people that came up with it. All I mean is that it is a common ruse and somewhat problematic due to his time constraints. I take it that the other player's know that you plan to betray them? If so I think you're pretty much out of luck. It's basic psychology, the hindsight bias. Once a person knows you're lying they'll tend to believe that your lies are obvious frabrications. They may go along with it but they'll all want to believe that their character is "strongly suspicious" of you. Judging by your previous posts your character is considering this betrayal for the posibility of a reward. I have to agree with some of the other people here. Evil organizations/gods do reward service, but only to those who can demand it. You bring them the artifact now, as a level 5 rogue with no magic items and you're essentially a minion. Expected to hand over the artifact because you are not strong enough to keep it. My advice is to turn the artifact in to the good church. It's really the most self-serving choice. There's no clear reward for treachery so you might as well turn this situation into a pr opportunity. Sneak off from the party and return the artifact to the good church alone. When the party finds you are missing the players will naturally assume you have betrayed them and go off looking for you. When they catch up to you at the church have your character explain to them that he knows they don't trust him and just wanted to show them that he could have run off with the artifact at any time. But that you're a team and the team has to stick together. Hopefully, by making them believe you betrayed them and then proving you didn't it will guilt trip them into trusting your character more and then the next time there is an opportunity to be evil you hopefully won't have to contend with so much scrutiny. PS I believe that either you or your DM have misinterpreted the duration of the Geas spell. The spell lasts 1 day per level if the task set to the creature can't be completed by their own actions "Guard this spot until I return" etc. If the Geas/Quest can be completed, like say bring me Torm's Skull, "The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no mater how long it takes." (emphasis added)
Andorxor 06-03-06, 10:52 AM	Or the geas was badly worded,like "Retrieve the artifact",without a word about bringing it back to the church.
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-03-06, 03:38 PM	kelvinaw273: they owe their spells to their god. If they keep the artifact, their spells go bye-bye and even the non-divine casters may find that Mask no longer smiles on their heists and murders. Jaerys: if I can't hand over the artifact to the evil church, my fate is sealed. Somehow, I just don't think that Mask will take the fact that I had the artifact and didn't hand it over lightly. If I give it to the good church, my days are numbered. In the single digits. Thanks for the information about the geas, though. Andorxor: heh, heh. Thanks. I'll ask the DM how specifically the geas was worded. I have two new things: 1. I suppose that if I have to choose between not handing over the artifact and being excised from the party, I'll leave the party. I'll be knocked down to first level, but I'm dedicated to role-playing... Maybe the DM will reward me by letting my new character be 5th level, but I doubt it. Oh, well. Anyway, getting back to the party is not a must. 2. What does everyone think of this plan? I sneak off, get into the city by some means or other, hand over the artifact, sneak out of the city, sneak back to the party, and leave my bag looking rifled-through-looking. I didn't awaken the next watch because I fell asleep. :thumbsup:? :thumbsdow?
Stonehinge 06-03-06, 09:16 PM	Since they do not trust you, play that up. Look down the road for your character, could the item be of any use to further your goals. Since the party is mostly good aligned tell them some half truths about the artifact and find ways to keep the item for yourself. You could tell your party that the evil temple knows that the artifact is coming and that your party has it and will do anything to prevent it from being delivered to the good temple. Give them a very vague idea on what they want to use it for. Try and convince the party that it is in everyone best interest to eliminate the priests etc. from the evil temple. You can try and pass off some way during the fight or eliminate all and keep it. With dealing with the good temple you can tell them that it was lost during the fight and tell them where it is. Just an idea. Basically find a way to use your party to further your goals without them knowing it.
BeerMan5000 06-03-06, 09:26 PM	What's the intelligence of your character? Because unless he's got Int 15, as a DM, I'm not buying any cunning plan like it. Character stats and character plans have nothing to do with player ability scores. Otherwise, here's my contribution to what you should do to get paid for that artifact. Unless you just really really like this church because they are evil... screw them over too. Give them the item, get paid... then, come back to the players saying, "Those son's of curs! They robbed me and I barely escaped with my life... but if we charge back in force tonight... they'll never know what hit them and we can get this artifact plus wipe out their little den of villainy and evil! What say you men?" And that's exactly how I'd do it, if i were in your shoes. Plus, gravely injure yourself before you come back... and maybe cut off one of your fingers or something to show they tortured you. eh... regeneration spell works wonders if you can afford it. Then, not only do you get to keep your filthy lucre you also get to lay your hands on all that great nice equipment made for... evil characters... that you know will likely be in that little den of sin. heh...
BeerMan5000 06-03-06, 09:30 PM	I'd also like to add that protection vs. good... doesn't work against other evil people... very ironic that. Protection vs. evil... however, works just fine when an evil man uses it against other evil men.
BeerMan5000 06-03-06, 09:31 PM	Rule number ONE of evil PC's: Eliminate the competition.
kelvinaw273 06-04-06, 03:28 AM	kelvinaw273: they owe their spells to their god. If they keep the artifact, their spells go bye-bye and even the non-divine casters may find that Mask no longer smiles on their heists and murders. Why? Mask is a god of thieves. If they use the artefact to further their thievery, then they are furthering his cause. My point is that there are a hundred and one reasons they might not want anyone to know that mask has the item, or that his priests have it - especially a secretive deity like Mask. Your continued existance is a threat to this. Jaerys: if I can't hand over the artifact to the evil church, my fate is sealed. Somehow, I just don't think that Mask will take the fact that I had the artifact and didn't hand it over lightly. If I give it to the good church, my days are numbered. In the single digits. Thanks for the information about the geas, though. You never mentioned this before. Is your character a worshipper of Mask? Mask is a god of thievery, he does not demand that averything stolen is his - he knows what his worshippers are like! Clearly there is a bit more backstory than you have told us. Andorxor: heh, heh. Thanks. I'll ask the DM how specifically the geas was worded. If it was worded correctly, you don't have a choice. I have two new things: 1. I suppose that if I have to choose between not handing over the artifact and being excised from the party, I'll leave the party. I'll be knocked down to first level, but I'm dedicated to role-playing... Maybe the DM will reward me by letting my new character be 5th level, but I doubt it. Oh, well. Anyway, getting back to the party is not a must. I still do not understand why you HAVE to hand over the artefact. You state earlier that it is purely for a the reward from the tmeple of Mask (ha ha!), then later that your days are numbered if you don't. Which is it? 2. What does everyone think of this plan? I sneak off, get into the city by some means or other, hand over the artifact, sneak out of the city, sneak back to the party, and leave my bag looking rifled-through-looking. I didn't awaken the next watch because I fell asleep. :thumbsup:? :thumbsdow? And if they awaken while you were gone? If something attacks while you are 'on watch?' Has your character fallen asleep before on watch? What if they set a double watch?
Jaerys 06-04-06, 05:47 AM	@Kelvinaw273: I got the impression that this is a crime of opportunity rather than premeditated, and that he assumes that the temple will kill him if he doesn't turn the item in, rather than there being a specific arrangement to that effect. Mask likes to use intrigue, manipulation, and overly complicated ruses to acheive his plan. This has been curved somewhat since it has cost him in recent years but I just can't see him or his clergy using a direct threat to get their way. Despite this, he knows his situation and the DM better than us so he may be right *shrugs*. @The OP: If the Geas is still in effect then you can count the number of days you have to live on one hand if you don't return the artifact to the good temple. Even if the Maskarran church does come after you it's a less certain death than trying to ignore a geas at level 5. In fact, if they aren't the BBEG of the game anyway something much worse is going to be trying to kill you before long anyway . . . so having some assassins after you isn't the end of the world. Cyric seemed to do alright for himself at least. If however the geas was faulty and you really want to give the artifact to the bad guys I'll try to help. Does your party set double watches? I know mine does. Not because of trust issues, but it's easy for a single watchman to get sapped etc. Also, does your party have rangers or divination happy wizards/clerics etc? They tend to complicate things. PS Anyone remember Avner of Hartwick, Mask's Seraph of Thieves? Seems like Mask would task him to steal Torm's Skull just for the amusement value.
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-04-06, 01:06 PM	You never mentioned this before. Is your character a worshipper of Mask? Mask is a god of thievery, he does not demand that averything stolen is his - he knows what his worshippers are like! I think that it's implied that I'd be removed if I betray a bunch of assassins. Also, although he doesn't require I hand over everything I steal, he does want this artifact. A lot. If it was worded correctly, you don't have a choice. I have a choice. The choice is hand it over or take 3d6. Even if the Maskarran church does come after you it's a less certain death than trying to ignore a geas at level 5. I take 3d6 if I disobey the geas. That's a maximum (1:215 odds, by the way) of 18 damage. I have 18 life. I'll live, no doubt about it. Oh, and I have to go play the game in 30 minutes, so... yeah. Thanks for the help.
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-04-06, 07:54 PM	All right. People can keep arguing, etc. if they want to, but it's a moot point now. I've finished with that predicament.
danielinthewolvesden 06-04-06, 09:02 PM	You shouldn't do it at all. Your PC shouldn't even be in that party to begin with and your DM shouldn't have let you in.
kelvinaw273 06-05-06, 03:35 AM	All right. People can keep arguing, etc. if they want to, but it's a moot point now. I've finished with that predicament. What happened?
Gideon_Gideonson 06-05-06, 02:42 PM	Well, sadly, I apparently located this thread to late to be of help. But here's my idea anyway...maybe you can use it in some way if you ever have to do something like this again. If your character is very useful to the party, or you can make him useful, this plan will probably work. Go to the temple. Hand them the artifact. Have them take you to some other location where you will be found, kill you, and set up the scene to place the blame elsewhere (like the orc tribe brand suggested earlier). If you're an asset to the party, you will most likely be resurrected by the party, and no blame will be placed on the guy found slaughtered bloodily by orcs in his room in the tavern. If all his stuff was stolen, well, that's the orcs fault, isn't it? Also, why is it that you're level 5, but there's a level 10 fighter in the party? What is your DM smoking? Any threat that challenges the fighter will almost certainly kill you.
OravennasBrother 06-05-06, 04:48 PM	I'm not getting paid for it. I'm just hoping that the god will be grateful and maybe grant me a favor. Ooh that would eb too good to pass up. I would let you get the item to the temple, then have the deity give you a "blessing" which forever after allowed you, as an extraordinary ability, to add your Charisma (or Wisdom or Intelligence whichever is lowest) bonus to your unarmored AC. Of course it IS the blessing of a dark god, so anytime detect Evil goes off, you will light up like a christmas tree. Too bad about that NPC paladin you run into in the wilderness shortly thereafter, but he's only four or five levels higher than you. Naturally the rest of the party reccognizes him on sight and Knows he IS one of the good guys. YOU wanted to play the KEWL :cool: evil character; you wanted teh favor of a dark god. You just have to live with the results of your actions.
Dag 06-05-06, 09:35 PM	You're a putz. First off you're trying to betray the party, but trying to do it in a way that keeps your character with the group because you don't want to create a new character. As if that should factor into your character's descision at all. Stop using that Out of character tid-bit to change the way you play your character. Secondly, play fair. If you don't have the creativity or brains to find a way to betray your party then dont come here seeking our advice. It's dishonest and unfair to the other players who are going without these boards, relying on their own wits and imagination while here you are using the gathered wisdom of countless number of D&D players. You're a sad case who clearly plays the game because he likes having fun at other people's expense.
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-05-06, 11:00 PM	You're a putz. First off you're trying to betray the party, but trying to do it in a way that keeps your character with the group because you don't want to create a new character. As if that should factor into your character's descision at all. Stop using that Out of character tid-bit to change the way you play your character. Dag, those were very hurtful things to say. I was crying too much to get past the first sentence or two because what you said was too mean for human eyes. I'm very, very sad now, and... ... Oh, who am I kidding? I love being flamed! It sends me into paroxysms of laughter! If you really care about what you have to say, don't toss Explosive Runes into your posts. I'm too busy laughing to finish it. Have a nice day! :pity: P.S.: By the way, was that "putz" supposed to mean "idiot" or "male reproductive organ?" Either one is appropriate, but it's always nice to have clarification. P.P.S.: I have a reason for wanting to get back into the party. More gullible fools to help me give Mask artifacts = more artifacts for Mask = me being happy because Mask views me as a valuable resource and smiles upon my endeavors. Ta-da! Oh, but I don't need to get back to the party, since encounters are based on what would be a challenge, so it will be just as easy without the party. Is that what you were getting at? Also, why is it that you're level 5, but there's a level 10 fighter in the party? What is your DM smoking? Any threat that challenges the fighter will almost certainly kill you. The fighter's been in the party for a longer time. Also, the DM gives encounters based on average character level, so it's challenging for us but not so much for the fighter. Doesn't matter, since the player is moving and won't be playing any more. You shouldn't do it at all. Your PC shouldn't even be in that party to begin with and your DM shouldn't have let you in. Why not? I play my character that way, it's fun for everyone, and I'm not interfering with the plot or anything, as long as I'm not killing PC's (which I'm not).
a_psh 06-06-06, 02:02 AM	Oh, I didn't mention that. They need two more items and our party's doing a great job securing them.That simple line, mentioned earlier or more prominently, would've changed all the responses... If it's one of those multi-part dealies, then just tell the evil church to cool its heels. If you need all three bits to do anything, why bother tipping your hand in retrieving the first one when you can wait til the peices are all in motion and grab 'em? Assuming they're not idiots, you should've been able to convince your superiors that it made more sense to wait for another piece to be found and strike when two were gathered in the church while your group (with the aid of the church's strongest warriors, who must undertake the perilous journey with you, *wink*-*wink*) was wandering after the third. They take the two artifacts from a weakened and under-defended church and then waylay the party after whatever harrowing ordeal they have to go through to get the last one leaves them half-dead from wounds and exhaustion. Problem solved! =) Oh, well, too late...
danielinthewolvesden 06-06-06, 11:18 AM	Why not? I play my character that way, it's fun for everyone, and I'm not interfering with the plot or anything, as long as I'm not killing PC's (which I'm not). Is it really fun for everyone, or just you? Have you asked your fellow players what they think? Generally, a traitor/disruptive party member is fun only for that player.
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-06-06, 06:42 PM	Is it really fun for everyone, or just you? Have you asked your fellow players what they think? Generally, a traitor/disruptive party member is fun only for that player. It is fun for everyone, not just me. As a matter of fact, I have asked. So unless they're lying...
The_Cheezal 06-07-06, 02:20 AM	So you cant enter a city without the party,How long have you guys been outside this city? This Thread alone has gone on for months :) How i would do it? Depending on your level? If your above 6th I'd take the Leadership Feat. Why? because u can gain followers or cohorts? Why do u need a cohort? because i dont see you can do this alone. So what sort of cohort do you want? i'd suggest Either a Chameleon or a Doppleganger with some form background as at least 1 level of wizard or sorceror This person can be part of your characters background before you knew the party,an Old loyal friend. You send word through normal channels a messenger for example to your friend that you need his assistance in a matter and explain exactly what,how you'd like him to link up,and when. The when= at night ,whilst you are on shift i assume single person guard shifts are enough near a city,just watch the Guard towers! Have him purchase 2 scrolls of invisibility that you will re inburse him for later,if he's level 1 he can still cast scrolls of a higher level spell caster. To use one on himself to approach the party unseen,if he hasn't seen you in a while have him study you for a few days. So he then becomes you! and casts the 2nd invisibility on you. Therefore you still are with the party! even when you leave. So you're ready to go into the city! ALL of you head in!you get in ,if nothing poses a problem! which could be on, alert since i believe u said there's a killer running round. once your in you hit the church! he stays with the party. now here's the flaws in this that could only screw you up. 1 you cant get a messenger! 2) the messenger is intercepted by your own people because they distrust u THAT much! or other's on the road and your mate doesn;t get it. 3) a member of your party has detect thoughts,and pick up you passing on the message,or read either yours or your mates mind whilst the switch is on,which could result in your expendable friend dying as a monster who covertly killed their companion and replaced them in the group.:) 4) Tracks ,the invisible guy may leave tracks! so either cover his tracks,and when you follow,walk in the person in front of your's tracks. 5) The gate! if the city is on high alert,a city may have magic wards that reveal invisible creatures or in this case you! if you get detected well that's one i dont have an answer for.but if you get by! all the better. Just dont tell your mate what you have to deliver.
stealth_monkey 06-07-06, 03:38 AM	It is fun for everyone, not just me. As a matter of fact, I have asked. So unless they're lying... You know, if you said that in the first place, you would have gotten a lot less hostility
Kraleck 06-07-06, 10:10 AM	Watchdog_of_Hades, I think we'd all like to know what happened with the artifact.
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-07-06, 02:14 PM	Watchdog_of_Hades, I think we'd all like to know what happened with the artifact. We went into the city, I managed to keep possession of the artifact, and I started looking around for the local friendly church of Mask. Unfortunately, one of the party members, the goody-two-shoes cleric, noticed me missing, so he went looking for me. He saw me and demanded the artifact back. I didn't want to do it, but killing him would get me hanged (most likely), so I ran. Unfortunately, a chase scene attracts guards (surprise surprise), so we got taken into custody. The guards found out that I was carrying around a major artifact, which the cleric claimed belonged to Helm (it did), so some priests of Helm came and took the item. I was then convicted of stealing a very powerful item and sentenced to one year of hard labor. Unfortunately (though I don't follow the reasoning), trying to escape from being locked up so I can get more artifacts and this time bring them to the right guys, thus fulfilling my geas, didn't count as trying to fulfill my geas, so I was pretty much going to take damage every day until I died. On the up side, it was a week until I was to be shipped over to Labor Camps, Inc., so I could get full bed rest. I barely managed to survive until the fifth day. Every day, I had been praying for divine intervention, which in this game is a 1% chance you can use once per day of your god helping you out. So, as I was floating down a river to a leper colony (the geas damage from no visible source made people think I had some disease) and praying to Mask, the boat hit a rock, the guard swam away, and all my locks came undone. I swam the other way. After that, I came across some bandits, who tried (and failed) to remove the geas. The wizard gave me the advice to just try and fulfill my geas. When I asked for how I should explain my behavior to the party, he thought for a while and replied, "Say the priests had some loved one held hostage. Those good types always fall for that kind of stuff." I went back to the party and gave that excuse (successfully, thanks to my lying skills). Now our job is to bring the artifact to a secret place. I'll do it, of course. Then I'll go to the local thieves' guild and tell them everything I can about how to retrieve it. You know, if you said that in the first place, you would have gotten a lot less hostility Hostility amuses me.
SoldierOfFortune187 06-08-06, 04:19 AM	Hostility amuses me. Obviously. I'm more tickled about how just enough information is leaked to the situation to keep people from seeing the whole picture, and thusly make the most appropriate suggestions from the start. Instead making assumptions for a scenario that isn't fully understood because it isn't fully explained. At the start it was described as "I want to betray my party because its what my character does." After enough flames were tossed around (with some ideas as to how to actually accomplish it), "Oh wait, I am also under a spell." A few more rounds of playing scold-the-player-for-being-evil (and more suggestions), and when that wears thin, "Wait, did I mention I need more artifacts?" And when this failed to lead anywhere talks simply turned to how the OP was doing this, not for the group's enjoyment, but personal amusement at their expense, suddenly the revelation, "By the way, the rest of the players know and are cool with this." Sure its humours (for you) to see how long a thread like this could be druuuug out, but I can only imagine if this is what is done when asking for help, that the actual playing of the character would quickly be given the boot from most games/groups.
danielinthewolvesden 06-08-06, 04:41 PM	Obviously. I'm more tickled about how just enough information is leaked to the situation to keep people from seeing the whole picture, and thusly make the most appropriate suggestions from the start. Instead making assumptions for a scenario that isn't fully understood because it isn't fully explained. At the start it was described as "I want to betray my party because its what my character does." After enough flames were tossed around (with some ideas as to how to actually accomplish it), "Oh wait, I am also under a spell." A few more rounds of playing scold-the-player-for-being-evil (and more suggestions), and when that wears thin, "Wait, did I mention I need more artifacts?" And when this failed to lead anywhere talks simply turned to how the OP was doing this, not for the group's enjoyment, but personal amusement at their expense, suddenly the revelation, "By the way, the rest of the players know and are cool with this." Sure its humours (for you) to see how long a thread like this could be druuuug out, but I can only imagine if this is what is done when asking for help, that the actual playing of the character would quickly be given the boot from most games/groups. Wonderful post, I completely agree. :cheer: :clap: :bow: As for our OP: :uh-huh: