Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JadeFox 01-18-04, 02:37 PM	I am playing a first level Chaotic Netural human wizard, (transmutaion specialist) and had an idea. There are two basic ways to ident a magic item, Identify, and detect magic. Nystels Magic Aura fools detect magic, and the only other main method (Identify) takes 8 hours and 100gp to cast. So the party pooled it's money, and bought a mastercraft longsword. Then used Nystels Magic Aura, to make it look like a sword of +1. We went in to the magic shop and asked what it was worth, made all out bluff checks, and the guy said he would buy it. We walked off with over 700gp of profit! :smirk: Anyone else use this trick? Anyone know a way the DM can thwart you?
Avalongod 01-18-04, 03:00 PM	Detect magic does not "identify" an item...only shows it as being magical, and perhaps the "aura" (such as evocation, divination, etc)... ...you actually raise a good question, regarding store buying magic items. You'd think most shops would insist on some form of certification of a magic item before buying it....in essence casting their own identify...but this would obviously cost gold and time. Any shop that only uses "detect magic" would be setting themselves up for "Nystul's Magic Aura" frauds. I suspect only a new shop would make such a mistake (imagining most others would be burned in short order). If the party was planning to stay in town, obviously an irate shopkeeper would cause legal and reputation problems for them. If they left town, a shopkeeper with means could hire bounty hunters to track them down (even if it cost more than the value of the item, it might be worth his/her professional reputation to hire them). Just some thoughts...
JadeFox 01-18-04, 03:04 PM	We used a "change self" spell to protect against bounty hunters. Can't a spellcraft check ID a magic item with detect magic? Any others ways a shop could do that?
Dasein 01-18-04, 03:06 PM	There are a number of ways to handle this: 1. Fraud would not be looked upon to highly by the authorities, especially when dealing with hundreds or thousands of GP, and those merchants capable of dealing in those sums will likely have connections. Do this enough, and you will wind up on the wrong side of some powerful people - theives guilds, mages guilds, powerful temples and other such organizations would all have an interest in prevent such fraud, and working together, they can make life very difficult and very short for a group of conn artists. 2. Merchants would have a long time ago caught on to such tricks, and so now work with the mages guild to verify that all magic items are authentic before a purchase is finalized. Once the price is agreed upon, the item is turned over to the mages guild while the funds are placed in an escrow account. Upon verification of the item's magical porperties, the item is turned over to the merchant and the funds are released to the party. Perhaps the PCs are required to pay the cost of identification, or perhaps the merchants work out an arrangement to cover identification costs - say a few hundred GP/year from each merchant and they get free identification from the mages guild. 3. Not really a solution, but there's nothing stopping less than honest merchants from pulling the same scam on the PCs. It would be rather unfortunate if that +1 longsword that you bought to overcome the damage resistance of the baddie wasn't. Dasein
Avalongod 01-18-04, 03:09 PM	As I mentioned Detect Magic will only reveal that it is, indeed, magical. I doubt most shops would settle with your word if you walk in saying "+4 defending vorpal sword for sale, real cheap" and only cast detect magic to say "yup, its magical, good enough for me" No detect magic will not reveal the specific qualities of the item. I think a savvy DM can come up with some bounty hunters that could track you despite your change self....perhaps one of them is a mage who can track the "signature" of the wizard who case the "Nystul's Magic Aura"...:b: ...again, just a thought.
Dasein 01-18-04, 03:09 PM	We used a "change self" spell to protect against bounty hunters. Change Self only has a duration of 10 minutes/level, which will not offer any real protection against a determined bounty hunter. Dasein
JadeFox 01-18-04, 03:15 PM	no no, I mean I was "changed" when i sold it too him.
Dasein 01-18-04, 03:34 PM	Another possibility: Dispel magic would work nicely, and could be cast on the items. It would suppress any magical effects of the item for a few rounds, but would dispel any false magical properties. This is much faster and cheaper than using Identify. Dasein
Hengwrt Ellesmere 01-18-04, 05:05 PM	Doing that once as a joke seems in character for a Chaotic Neutral person, but if you guys keep it up I would start shifting you toward evil.
Assasin of the elders 01-18-04, 06:04 PM	I like the way JadeFox is using that spell since I cant see any other way to use nystyls magical aura as a PC. As a DM I would use that spell only to fool a PC not to take a magical sword or what ever magical item. If that spell is only to "protect" your stuff from being stolen or something like that then it is rubbish. Because when PC's fall their stuff will be taken regardles of being magical or not.
JadeFox 01-19-04, 11:59 AM	Doing that once as a joke seems in character for a Chaotic Neutral person, but if you guys keep it up I would start shifting you toward evil. This was a one-time thing so my charachter could jump-start his take-over-the-world plan, but that's another story..........;) I like the way JadeFox is using that spell since I cant see any other way to use nystyls magical aura as a PC. Thanks. But it's really a one-shot-only trick.
Levism84 01-20-04, 01:36 AM	To get you guys back, the DM might just slip in a couple of weapons or other items that arent exactly what they appear to be the next time you go shopping. Remember, what YOU can do, OTHERS can too. "Hey guys... I dont think this Bastard Sword is really +3...."
Glide 01-20-04, 09:35 PM	Wand of dispel magic...a strong one. Shopkeepers have been carrying those around for as long as I can remeber in our campaign. It
Scorpion_Shugenja 01-20-04, 10:04 PM	also, remember that if they cast a Detect Magic, they would notice that you had spells on you, and if they had spellcraft, that it was illusion, at which point they would be very unhappy with you. dispel magic could accomplish the same thing. Of course, the real way to prevent this absurdity is to eliminate magic shops. things like potions and scrolls might be found in streetside stands,. but magic items of a more permanent nature would be found only in cities, and even then, they would not actually be stores that you could walk in to and buy/sell items over the counter. perhaps the most reasonable model would be a place I intend to use in my next Campaign (not the rokugan one, because rokugan has no magic shops, but if i ever run yet another campaign), "Evaan's Extraordinary Exchange" basically, anyone in the area can have his items registered at the exchange. Evaan, the owner than prepares a list of items he has available, without divulging their owners. when you walk into the store you find nothing but a big sign, listing his currently available merchandise. if you see something you like, you ask him about it and try to work out a deal. most sellers dont simply want cash. those who create items for profit do so by comission, payment in advance, through their own buisnesses. those selling on the exchange are either adventutrers with items they cant use, or noble, merchants or treasure hunters who somehow came into possession of one. those who just want cash, will have set a minimum price. however, this is not communicated to the buyer. instead, Evaan haggles over a price with the buyer, until an agreement is made. when one is, he collects coins from the buyer and moves them to his private residence, of unknown location. then he contacts the seller and retrieves the item. then he gives it to the buyer. the next day, he retrieves the gold and gives it to the seller, minus a 5% take for himself, plus 50% of any payment above the minimum price the seller set. the adventurers want items useful to them, and so when one wants to obtain an item through the exchange, one swaps items for items. the advantage here above commissioning an item is that they will often accept items at full or near-full value. he will have both a list of specific items that they may have provided, and a limited amount of information he is permitted to divulge, as in "my client is a dex-based fighter", allowing the buyer to consider an offer. when an offer is made, Evaan conveys it to the seller, and if he receuves an agreement he takes posession of the items. they remain in his house for 3 days while he detects/dispells/whatevers them. then, he relays them to the seller and retrievs the item for the buyer. sometimes collectors, historians and like seeking rare non-magical items use the same process. at no time are there either magic items or significant amounts of cash actually in the shop. the entire operation is run by 3 people Evaan, an 11th level elf wizard. he runs the buisness, secures the building, and checks the magic items. he is 300 years old, has been running this buisness for 2 centuries, and everyone is used to and trusts him. Takel, a 7th level human bard, age 24. she is Evaan's clerk, and also appraises the value of non-magic items. Frondo, a 9th level halfling rogue, age 30, acts as Evaan's courier, bringing message to clients stealthily to avoid revealing their identities. a similar model might work for your DM.
Nom 01-20-04, 10:44 PM	Can I also point you to http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166920. Any shopkeeper with even half a brain is going to do one or more of: Have an apprentice cast identify on the item and bill the potential seller for the cost and time (only takes 1 hr in 3.5). 100gp material + 10gp for level 1 spell & level 1 caster plus perhaps +10gp for it taking so long. Cast dispel magic at the item. Use analyze dweomer (though this is a sixth level spell). (one we didn't think of but was mentioned above) Use detect magic on any visitors to the shop to make sure that there are no "unexplained" auras. Pay a high level caster to have a dimensional lock placed around the shop. For 1200gp/15 days (15th level caster * 8th level spell), this is definitely worth it if the shopkeeper is trading in anything more than magical trinkets. Try teleporting in or out now, bucko! Personally, I think the original poster was rather lucky to find a woefully underprepared shopkeeper. Or a similarly underprepared GM. :)