Binder Vestiges Vs 2ed Veterans [Archive] - Wizards Community

Binder Vestiges Vs 2ed Veterans [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BloodDragon
02-28-08, 04:22 PM So I think I’ve ran into a unique problem the other night, I’m playing a 9th level Binder (Tome of Magic) and due to the need for dark-cave-exploring I opted for the Vestige Geryon the Deposed Lord as one of my binds that day. I’ve usually made a point of Hiding the fact I’m a binder to the PCs in-game but what can I say? I slipped my fault.

Now when I did this the DM, Far-realm Flavoured Gish, and a Pladain-esqe player heard the name Geryon and- oh gods -all hell broke lose. The two players are old 2nd edition players and were heavily metagaming, asking me “Do you converse with demons?! Hmmmn!? What else is evil about you!?”, this did not help with the fact that the DM was making the Knowledge rolls for both Arch-devil and Vestige Binding a DC 20.

The DM is VERY black and white on Good & Evil creatures. So the long and short of it is: I have “Explain” why I’m conversing with and Ex-Arch-Devils to the Paladin next session.

My character is not “Evil” or even Chaotic, He’s Lawful Neutral. I keep asking the DM to read just “What” Vestiges are so he will understand my class better, and he has put off reading the Tome of Magic thus far.

One possible path I’ve thought of is to let Geryon’s Influence just take over and say “I trust your opinion on this matter Paladin, I’ll be careful next time.”, but then I have to deal with his watchful eyes until he expires. Hells know what would happen if he saw me bind Tenebrous. So I’m just probing for other options.

This group is generally very good, I’m not angry with them- But every group has a hiccup now and again. This is just one of them.

Any advice is appreciated; thank you.
Sinfire Titan
02-28-08, 05:02 PM Hehe, be glad you aren't able to bind Ashalardon yet. That will give them a real fit, when they find that you are binding a Dragonic deity, who replaced his heart with a Balor, to your soul.

As to dealing with it, explain to them IC what a Vestige really is: Nothing more than a harmless wisp of a memory. Show them the binding process for another Vestige. Then explain that these beings can exert no true control over your soul or mind, that you are in full control of your actions even when binding them.
Zombie_Babies
02-28-08, 05:05 PM I'd just ask 'em how in the nine their characters knew who that was without a difficult Knowlege roll. That should shut 'em up.
Vaelan
02-28-08, 05:14 PM Explaining the basics of binding to them will suffice. You make a pact. The pact is quite clear and harmless.

Also inform them that you aren't exactly the only one making such pacts. This serves two purposes.

First, it reinforces the idea that the pacts are binding.

Second, it shows that if they don't believe the pacts are binding, they will need to track down other Binders. Since it took them quite some time to realize what you're doing, there's no chance they're going to find Binders at large. You, on the other hand, would be more effective.
Cifer
02-28-08, 06:38 PM Explaining the basics of binding to them will suffice. You make a pact. The pact is quite clear and harmless.
I advise against using the word pact. There are certain... negative associations with it.

Further, I fail to see the problem. A paladin should know the name of an archdevil, so metagaming doesn't need to have taken place and DC20 is indeed the check needed to know basic stuff about several arch-whatevers.

Well, I haven't read Tome of Magic myself, only two reviews and the excerpts from the WotC site, but from what they say, the paladin is somewhat justified in being angry with you - pact magic allows creatures access to our realm that don't belong there and sometimes are rather malicious in nature. You might either try to downplay these beings as pure memories with little to no possibilities to affect you or anything else or you could explain exactly what the risks are. Being a little too trusting for Geryon doesn't sound like it will be upsetting to a paladin.
DyloniusFunk
02-28-08, 07:03 PM Why is your DM allowing you to use material from a book he is unfamiliar with? That's half your problem right there
I_roll_ones
02-28-08, 08:01 PM I'd just ask 'em how in the nine their characters knew who that was without a difficult Knowlege roll. That should shut 'em up.

Point out that they are metagaming, unless they made their roll. Or tell them that if they know about Geryon, a vestige, then they'll know that binding him is harmless.

The DC to bind him is indeed 25, and the DC to know the legend of Geryon is 15, as presented in Fiendish Codex II. But, how did they connect "extra eyes" with "That dead demon guy"?

However...He's hard to hide, I won't say I know much about binders, but I think that an extra set of eyes might be problematic to hide.

Also, Geryon, if it's the dude I am thinking about, is a devil, not a demon. Therefore, say that he's not a demon(true) and play as you will. If they still don't get it, point out that binding this guy makes you more likely to keep your word and be loyal, so he can't be all bad, right?
Salla
02-28-08, 10:34 PM Another consideration is, did you, the player say Geryon, or did the Binder character say Geryon?

Agreed, no KN: religion roll, it's metagaming. Even worse if you didn't say it ICly. For that matter, if they make the check, they'd know that Geryon is a powerless husk.

You could always strip naked (no magic items to conceal your alignment) and let them scan you with their Evildar.
Cifer
02-29-08, 12:58 PM Another consideration is, did you, the player say Geryon, or did the Binder character say Geryon?
I’ve usually made a point of Hiding the fact I’m a binder to the PCs in-game but what can I say? I slipped my fault.
Sounds like the character to me.

Agreed, no KN: religion roll, it's metagaming.
I_roll_ones just dug out the exact DC as presented in the FC II.

For that matter, if they make the check, they'd know that Geryon is a powerless husk.
I'm interested: How many of your campaigns began with some cultists trying to restore a lond-"dead" extradimensional being to power with some harmless pacts?
Sinfire Titan
02-29-08, 03:31 PM Point out that they are metagaming, unless they made their roll. Or tell them that if they know about Geryon, a vestige, then they'll know that binding him is harmless.

The DC to bind him is indeed 25, and the DC to know the legend of Geryon is 15, as presented in Fiendish Codex II. But, how did they connect "extra eyes" with "That dead demon guy"?

However...He's hard to hide, I won't say I know much about binders, but I think that an extra set of eyes might be problematic to hide.

Also, Geryon, if it's the dude I am thinking about, is a devil, not a demon. Therefore, say that he's not a demon(true) and play as you will. If they still don't get it, point out that binding this guy makes you more likely to keep your word and be loyal, so he can't be all bad, right?

At the level you get Geryon, you all ready can hide those extra eyes with a successful pact. If he didn't want them to be seen, then very little could have allowed someone else to see then.
Vaelan
02-29-08, 05:36 PM Well, I haven't read Tome of Magic myself, only two reviews and the excerpts from the WotC site, but from what they say, the paladin is somewhat justified in being angry with you - pact magic allows creatures access to our realm that don't belong there and sometimes are rather malicious in nature.
You should probably read the book before making such judgements. Even the most miserably failed pact does not give the vestige any real degree of power.

Let's look at Geryon, to use a relevant example.

Influence: While influenced by Geryon, you become overly trusting of and loyal to those you see as allies, even in the face of outright treachery. Because he values trust, if you make a Sense Motive check or use any ability to read thoughts or detect lies, you rebel against Geryon's influence and incur the normal penalties.
That's all. No, he doesn't descend upon the material plane with hellish hordes in his wake. He makes you trust people. That's all.

The penalty for rebelling against influence is taking -1 to attack rolls, saves, and checks, by the way. Even the small power they are granted is pretty easily taken away.

Also, who is to say what does and doesn't belong in their realm? The jackass who couldn't even make Paladin or the guy who draws power from the Far Realms?
Salla
02-29-08, 07:31 PM [I_roll_ones just dug out the exact DC as presented in the FC II.

Yes, but did the paladins roll (and succeed) at it, or did they just start lipping off? :)

I'm interested: How many of your campaigns began with some cultists trying to restore a lond-"dead" extradimensional being to power with some harmless pacts?

None. :) My campaigns tend to revolve around more 'earthly' (or whatever the name of the planet is) matters.
Cartigan
02-29-08, 08:19 PM Well, I haven't read Tome of Magic myself, only two reviews and the excerpts from the WotC site, but from what they say, the paladin is somewhat justified in being angry with you - pact magic allows creatures access to our realm that don't belong there and sometimes are rather malicious in nature. You might either try to downplay these beings as pure memories with little to no possibilities to affect you or anything else or you could explain exactly what the risks are. Being a little too trusting for Geryon doesn't sound like it will be upsetting to a paladin.
Your first statement really just discounts the rest of the paragraphs. The Binder section of Tome of Magic is absurdly long, at least with the Vestige descriptions in there.

But with the DM biased against your character, there is no telling what will actually happen outside of the RAW.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BloodDragon 02-28-08, 04:22 PM	So I think I’ve ran into a unique problem the other night, I’m playing a 9th level Binder (Tome of Magic) and due to the need for dark-cave-exploring I opted for the Vestige Geryon the Deposed Lord as one of my binds that day. I’ve usually made a point of Hiding the fact I’m a binder to the PCs in-game but what can I say? I slipped my fault. Now when I did this the DM, Far-realm Flavoured Gish, and a Pladain-esqe player heard the name Geryon and- oh gods -all hell broke lose. The two players are old 2nd edition players and were heavily metagaming, asking me “Do you converse with demons?! Hmmmn!? What else is evil about you!?”, this did not help with the fact that the DM was making the Knowledge rolls for both Arch-devil and Vestige Binding a DC 20. The DM is VERY black and white on Good & Evil creatures. So the long and short of it is: I have “Explain” why I’m conversing with and Ex-Arch-Devils to the Paladin next session. My character is not “Evil” or even Chaotic, He’s Lawful Neutral. I keep asking the DM to read just “What” Vestiges are so he will understand my class better, and he has put off reading the Tome of Magic thus far. One possible path I’ve thought of is to let Geryon’s Influence just take over and say “I trust your opinion on this matter Paladin, I’ll be careful next time.”, but then I have to deal with his watchful eyes until he expires. Hells know what would happen if he saw me bind Tenebrous. So I’m just probing for other options. This group is generally very good, I’m not angry with them- But every group has a hiccup now and again. This is just one of them. Any advice is appreciated; thank you.
Sinfire Titan 02-28-08, 05:02 PM	Hehe, be glad you aren't able to bind Ashalardon yet. That will give them a real fit, when they find that you are binding a Dragonic deity, who replaced his heart with a Balor, to your soul. As to dealing with it, explain to them IC what a Vestige really is: Nothing more than a harmless wisp of a memory. Show them the binding process for another Vestige. Then explain that these beings can exert no true control over your soul or mind, that you are in full control of your actions even when binding them.
Zombie_Babies 02-28-08, 05:05 PM	I'd just ask 'em how in the nine their characters knew who that was without a difficult Knowlege roll. That should shut 'em up.
Vaelan 02-28-08, 05:14 PM	Explaining the basics of binding to them will suffice. You make a pact. The pact is quite clear and harmless. Also inform them that you aren't exactly the only one making such pacts. This serves two purposes. First, it reinforces the idea that the pacts are binding. Second, it shows that if they don't believe the pacts are binding, they will need to track down other Binders. Since it took them quite some time to realize what you're doing, there's no chance they're going to find Binders at large. You, on the other hand, would be more effective.
Cifer 02-28-08, 06:38 PM	Explaining the basics of binding to them will suffice. You make a pact. The pact is quite clear and harmless. I advise against using the word pact. There are certain... negative associations with it. Further, I fail to see the problem. A paladin should know the name of an archdevil, so metagaming doesn't need to have taken place and DC20 is indeed the check needed to know basic stuff about several arch-whatevers. Well, I haven't read Tome of Magic myself, only two reviews and the excerpts from the WotC site, but from what they say, the paladin is somewhat justified in being angry with you - pact magic allows creatures access to our realm that don't belong there and sometimes are rather malicious in nature. You might either try to downplay these beings as pure memories with little to no possibilities to affect you or anything else or you could explain exactly what the risks are. Being a little too trusting for Geryon doesn't sound like it will be upsetting to a paladin.
DyloniusFunk 02-28-08, 07:03 PM	Why is your DM allowing you to use material from a book he is unfamiliar with? That's half your problem right there
I_roll_ones 02-28-08, 08:01 PM	I'd just ask 'em how in the nine their characters knew who that was without a difficult Knowlege roll. That should shut 'em up. Point out that they are metagaming, unless they made their roll. Or tell them that if they know about Geryon, a vestige, then they'll know that binding him is harmless. The DC to bind him is indeed 25, and the DC to know the legend of Geryon is 15, as presented in Fiendish Codex II. But, how did they connect "extra eyes" with "That dead demon guy"? However...He's hard to hide, I won't say I know much about binders, but I think that an extra set of eyes might be problematic to hide. Also, Geryon, if it's the dude I am thinking about, is a devil, not a demon. Therefore, say that he's not a demon(true) and play as you will. If they still don't get it, point out that binding this guy makes you more likely to keep your word and be loyal, so he can't be all bad, right?
Salla 02-28-08, 10:34 PM	Another consideration is, did you, the player say Geryon, or did the Binder character say Geryon? Agreed, no KN: religion roll, it's metagaming. Even worse if you didn't say it ICly. For that matter, if they make the check, they'd know that Geryon is a powerless husk. You could always strip naked (no magic items to conceal your alignment) and let them scan you with their Evildar.
Cifer 02-29-08, 12:58 PM	Another consideration is, did you, the player say Geryon, or did the Binder character say Geryon? I’ve usually made a point of Hiding the fact I’m a binder to the PCs in-game but what can I say? I slipped my fault. Sounds like the character to me. Agreed, no KN: religion roll, it's metagaming. I_roll_ones just dug out the exact DC as presented in the FC II. For that matter, if they make the check, they'd know that Geryon is a powerless husk. I'm interested: How many of your campaigns began with some cultists trying to restore a lond-"dead" extradimensional being to power with some harmless pacts?
Sinfire Titan 02-29-08, 03:31 PM	Point out that they are metagaming, unless they made their roll. Or tell them that if they know about Geryon, a vestige, then they'll know that binding him is harmless. The DC to bind him is indeed 25, and the DC to know the legend of Geryon is 15, as presented in Fiendish Codex II. But, how did they connect "extra eyes" with "That dead demon guy"? However...He's hard to hide, I won't say I know much about binders, but I think that an extra set of eyes might be problematic to hide. Also, Geryon, if it's the dude I am thinking about, is a devil, not a demon. Therefore, say that he's not a demon(true) and play as you will. If they still don't get it, point out that binding this guy makes you more likely to keep your word and be loyal, so he can't be all bad, right? At the level you get Geryon, you all ready can hide those extra eyes with a successful pact. If he didn't want them to be seen, then very little could have allowed someone else to see then.
Vaelan 02-29-08, 05:36 PM	Well, I haven't read Tome of Magic myself, only two reviews and the excerpts from the WotC site, but from what they say, the paladin is somewhat justified in being angry with you - pact magic allows creatures access to our realm that don't belong there and sometimes are rather malicious in nature. You should probably read the book before making such judgements. Even the most miserably failed pact does not give the vestige any real degree of power. Let's look at Geryon, to use a relevant example. Influence: While influenced by Geryon, you become overly trusting of and loyal to those you see as allies, even in the face of outright treachery. Because he values trust, if you make a Sense Motive check or use any ability to read thoughts or detect lies, you rebel against Geryon's influence and incur the normal penalties. That's all. No, he doesn't descend upon the material plane with hellish hordes in his wake. He makes you trust people. That's all. The penalty for rebelling against influence is taking -1 to attack rolls, saves, and checks, by the way. Even the small power they are granted is pretty easily taken away. Also, who is to say what does and doesn't belong in their realm? The jackass who couldn't even make Paladin or the guy who draws power from the Far Realms?
Salla 02-29-08, 07:31 PM	[I_roll_ones just dug out the exact DC as presented in the FC II. Yes, but did the paladins roll (and succeed) at it, or did they just start lipping off? :) I'm interested: How many of your campaigns began with some cultists trying to restore a lond-"dead" extradimensional being to power with some harmless pacts? None. :) My campaigns tend to revolve around more 'earthly' (or whatever the name of the planet is) matters.
Cartigan 02-29-08, 08:19 PM	Well, I haven't read Tome of Magic myself, only two reviews and the excerpts from the WotC site, but from what they say, the paladin is somewhat justified in being angry with you - pact magic allows creatures access to our realm that don't belong there and sometimes are rather malicious in nature. You might either try to downplay these beings as pure memories with little to no possibilities to affect you or anything else or you could explain exactly what the risks are. Being a little too trusting for Geryon doesn't sound like it will be upsetting to a paladin. Your first statement really just discounts the rest of the paragraphs. The Binder section of Tome of Magic is absurdly long, at least with the Vestige descriptions in there. But with the DM biased against your character, there is no telling what will actually happen outside of the RAW.