Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nicholcm 09-04-06, 12:31 PM	Hi Guys Just a but of a rant with no particular point, just want to get this example of player sillyness off my chest. Any comments welcome. My Character: Lvl 23 Wizard, Lvl 5 Arcmage (and a couple of hundred XP from next level) I had been invited to participate in a game that my DM is running for a new group who seems to be having problems roleplaying so he invited me along to help them get into character. My briefing was simple, join up with the PC’s and give limited assistance in their mission (deal was I would get discretionary roleplaying experience only and maybe an in character reward in the form of a new lead in my overall objective – revenge for the death of my entire town and family due to my older brother, I’ve got close a few times but never been able to get to him face to face). As usual, the opening setting was in a tavern that the party is using as a base of operations (and is also my old stomping grounds). The party is already at the tavern and the DM gives a full description of me entering the tavern. I go up and talk to my old friend the barkeep (good 10 minutes game time of PC-NPC conversation with a one of the PC’s finally getting involved – he apparently likes the spotlight and because he saw that I was getting it by talking to the barkeep he joined in – OOC the DM and I thought it was a good start, at least one of them were willing to roleplay). One of the PC’s who seemed to be getting bored decided to use an illusion spell to make a demonic tail grow out of my backside (Please note that my PC and the barkeep had been talking about old times and included how my friends and I had saved the town from a demonic attack a few years back, this should also have hinted that I wasn’t a weak wizard), this was probably not the best move to make. Those in the town started to panic worried that I had sold my soul, been possessed, demon in disguise and many other options. I informed them that I wasn’t and passed my Diplomacy check (we did consider using Bluff because the towns folk thought I was a Demon at this point, even though I wasn’t). I informed the PC wizard in character that the town had been attacked by demons in the recent past and that he would be well advised not to do something like that again. The PC, instead of any attempt at roleplaying, challenged me to a mage duel (he thought he was hard because he was level 6 and the rest of the party was level 4). OOC I rolled my eyes, looked at the DM and with his slight nod I sighed and in character accepted (we believe that the player was under the thinking that the DM wouldn’t put him up against something he couldn’t handle). At this point we had a food break and I spoke to the DM and told him that roleplay wise my character would just wipe this guy quickly with a single spell, but from a game point of view should I give him a gentle taste to make him realise that he was totally outclassed and give him a chance to back out. DM asked if I wouldn’t mind doing that. Onto the mage duel, I let him take the first move. He launches a fireball at me and rolls well for damage. I’m still standing with plenty of HP left. I then cast reflective armour (an Epic Level created Spell, powerful mage armour combined with the ability on a successful SR check to allow me to cast one of my spells of equal level or lower to the one cast at me at instant speed – and yes it took three quests to get the information etc. I needed to create the spell). He then launched another fire ball (doesn’t this guy have any imagination was my thought at the time), I made the SR check and cast prestigitation (sp?) to make some fireworks to please the crowd (yes my PC is a show off in character), I also made a few comments about how I didn’t know I was fighting him as it was such a waste of time and how I had known 1st year students with more talent than him and that if he was half as smart as he thought he was he would give up before I wipe him from the face of the planet. Some magic missiles this time, my character yawns and does another prestigitation to conjure up a chair to sit on. At this point the PC is hopping mad at me (can’t think why) as says how I’m humiliating him (at last some roleplaying!) and makes some comments about my parents (a sore subject for my character) so I launch an elemental ball (another epic spell that makes a fire ball look like a simple card trick). Players face pales when he see’s the number of dice I’m picking up. I came to an agreement with the party that I would arrange for a true res if they did a quest for me (am still working on it, I’m to DM). On the plus side they seem to be roleplaying better now. Ian
Wall 09-04-06, 02:03 PM	Well, that's certainly one way to do it. I did like your reactions to his spells. Completely how I would picture an epic wizard. Hopefully, if you continue to roleplay by example, the rest of them will catch on.
Azezel 09-04-06, 02:59 PM	Y'did good kid. Now - I'm not sure about your DM - it strikes me that letting you have an epic character in a level 4-6 game was not wise, but I think you personally handled things well.
Archangel62 09-04-06, 03:23 PM	That was rather cool, I might actually put a story of something like that happening in one of my games. That was pretty cool and I also have to say that you did good in terms of not letting your epic-nes overbear the players unless they specifically put themselves into that situation (mage duel)
1CentSage 09-04-06, 03:55 PM	Sorry, but from what you wrote, I would say you and your DM messed it up completely. Not that the other guys did it right but, Both the DM and you knew that the other guys have some problems roleplaying Your char comes to the bar and talks to the NPC (for 10min!!!) about heroic stuff your char did. taking the spotlight in that way not even trying to actively involve the others sounds not like "help them get into character". Its the kind of stuff that gets players upset, which inevitably makes them do stupid things, like harrassing your char. Well, after one of them did the first stupid thing both you and the DM should have foreseen what was to come. Again, you were taking the spotlight at the expense of the stupid guy, showing off a bit, which is kind of lame given the ridiculous power difference and your original mission. You say, that it should have been clear that you are a powerfull wizard. Which from an in game perspective is not. Powerfull could mean lvl10 or less, the guy at the bar could just be showing off. Is it a clever idea to challenge you and throw fireballs around? No for sure it is not. But that alone is no justification given that you had metagame knowledge he had not. Would you have proceeded the same way if you had known him to be lvl 30 for example? Would he have challenged you if he had known your level? Your DM obviously did nothing. The other guy felt offended. Did you seriously expect something different? Noticing that the DM teaches you a lesson with the help of a telegraph pole played by some other player is at least not nice. Finally you killed the guy. Whatever he said or did, this was cheap since he never stood any chance and you knew it, your DM knew it. And after all this mess, you made a generous offer to the PCs. You could have done this a hundred times before things got out of hand. What did you expect? You knew that these guys had some problems roleplaying, otherwise your DM had probably not involved you that way. Nevertheless you and the DM have treated them as if they should have known better. Not very consistent. Your DM seems to have done nothing but watch things unfold (and playing a bartender of course...). Don't you think that he had also some responsibility for the other players? Should he not have tried harder to involve the others than talking with you for 10 min.? Should he not have tried to avoid the confrontation between the characters, by the appearence of some official for example? What do you think is the job of the DM? On top of it it is now you that writes a self righteous rant about these stupid guys that did not get it although you and the DM tried SO HARD... Do you really think that you will teach them "roleplaying" that way? My opinion: Sorry, no skill, no style.
xver 09-05-06, 12:23 AM	OCC Knowledge or not, I think a level 28 character is going to accept any challenge to a mage's duel that comes his way. If, of course, he goes for that sort of thing. If he's the dueling sort, he's not likely to back down from any challenge, seeings how he's an epic arch mage. Besides, if he didn't metagame, he'd have likely opened with the elemental blast, rather than give the poor fool a chance to concede before being blown to bits. But this other guy just dosn't know what's good for him. After two volleys of what (in all likelyhood) is his best offensive spell bounce harmlessly off his SR, the guy insults his parentage. Hell, even if the OP was only 10th level or so, he'd get his arse handed to him. Personally, I think he got what he deserved. The first thing he does to a new guy joining the game is to attempt to cause him grief with some silly illusion. I have to wonder what he thought he would accomplish in any event. Apparently, watching someone have an in-depth conversation with an NPC is so boring to this guy that he'd rather pick a fight. Well, sure, DnD is a game about killing things and what not, but I think he's had precious little exposure to the "and what not" part. Heck, the kid with the ichy spell finger proably wouldn't fair so well in a game run by me either. You see, I run what's called a "status quo" game. In this sort of game, the world is set up such that NPCs and monsters are not all nessessarily the same level as the party. Think of it sort of like Faerun, there are NPCs that have X level, irregardless of what level the party is, and if they pick a fight with someone about as powerful as Elminster (albit less famous, I'll assume they know not to annoy the Sage), they will die a horrible death. And deservedly so.
Krompt 09-05-06, 05:05 AM	They were new players, yes, but even common sense would have told him that putting a demonic tail on a random guy in a tavern(ooc knowledge or ingame knowledge that its another PC) isnt a good idea--Strike 1 He then challanges a man who calms the entire bar down and proves he isnt a demon that attacked the village is quite a feat in itself (they would be going from friendly to hostile(because of the illusion) to friendly again) and then lets him go first in a Mage Duel shows the PC has bronze, brass, and adamantine gonads combined--Strike 2 After 2 Fireballs in a row, and a magic missle, while the enemy has used a shiny armor spell, then prestidigitation to make fireworks and a chair and not seeming at all bothered by the enemy's spells should show he isnt doing much damage (and the spells are seeming to bounce off his shiny armor) should require a Int or Wis check on a DC 0 to notice "Holy Mystra i'm out of my league" and should have backed down but he didnt and instead insulted his family-- Strike 3 Elemental Ball and your out. Things that your DM could have done was recommend the Wizard do a Spellcraft check when you cast your armor and say that it was a epic level spell, and might imply that your character is a bit higher then they are. But oh well, Your story made me chuckle at how you handled it.
King Bulba 09-05-06, 07:32 AM	Elemental Ball and your out. Things that your DM could have done was recommend the Wizard do a Spellcraft check when you cast your armor and say that it was a epic level spell, and might imply that your character is a bit higher then they are. But oh well, Your story made me chuckle at how you handled it. I agree with you. The player made mistakes and was SHORT sighted. The OPer for the most part did a good job leading by example, he probally should have disabled him instead of kill him in a metagame stand point but it does teach a point. Dont just toss out duels, dont insult people who are more powerfull than you are, and roleplaying can get you more than a D20. The hint to spellcraft check though should have been made by the DM. Any spell cast there should be spellcraft checks 100% of the time and that should be trained to the player so he remembers. The DM should only tell the players what was cast if someone makes the check. Once the battle is over its ok to tell them ooc but not during the battle imo. Also the DM knows they need help roleplaying so he should have made more opertunities for them to cut in instead of having a 10 minute conversation with the OPer. Maybe he did and that was not communicated to us, but I can only respond to what I see posted. Looked like an entertaining session. Maybe not for the "roll players" but they got to see what roleplaying is.
DarkNick 09-05-06, 03:39 PM	I agree with 1CentSage. I think it was all a bit heavy handed. Heck, I would find having to listen to someone talk to a barkeeper for 10mins bloody boring too. But it seems to have worked out ok and the person is still playing so I guess it had the desired result. Hopefully the player does not hold a grudge.
Dag 09-05-06, 04:09 PM	So in other words, under the guise of helping their roleplay along you and your DM ambushed this low level party with your arrogant, spot-light hogging epic wizard. Do either of you have any common sense? If your DM wanted to show roleplaying why not ask you to play the bar tender, or ask you to play an NPC healer for the session. When the DM's star player from another game sits down with the group to show them how to do soemthing properly my reaction would be frustration and I'd feel like I was being treated like a child. And after he horded the first ten minutes of the game in a conversation with the DM's NPC I might be frustrated enough to play a minor trick on the dude. Sure he could have opted to join the conversation, but when it's a rap session glorifying the person causing the annoyance who would want to get in on that? I suppose he should have stepped up to the bar and bought you a drink and toasted you for being a God and kissing your rear, that obviously is what you wanted as proven by the way you flaunted your powers and mocked him before frying the dude. You flubbed it. Your DM's a fool for even thinking of this and twice a fool for letting it pan out the way it did. Seems like you were showing off and humilliating other players and your DM gave you the tools and liscense to do that. Sure other posters give you credit for playing true to your character, and for being lenient with the tempermental party wizard. But that's a crock. Your epic character should not havce been there in the first place, and since your DM was moron enough to put him in you should have kept to the reason: Helping the group to roleplay! You had the wizard engaged in roleplay when he challenged you to a duel. Rather than blindly accepting the duel and whispering behind your grins to the DM about how you should toy with him before killing him, maybe you should have kept up the dialogue, asked why he saw the need for a duel? It wouldn't take very much imagination or creativity to turn his challenges into a roleplaying opportunity but it seems like your ego got the best of you, as it probably would with most people given the chance to play a character twenty something levels higher than everyone else. Hope the spotlight felt good. You can go back to your party and brag about how you killed the big bad 6th level guy. You stud. Now if you were a character of equal level playing in this group and you were offended I would say stay true to your character. If your character would duel or slay the offending pc then great. Do what your character would do. But you were brought in for one purpose: To help these new players with their roleplaying. Who is your DM going to bring in to help you? you should have ignored the insult, forget being true to your character because you were not there for yourself, you were there to help these players. All you and your DM probably accomplished was to **** off a bunch of players and your DM proved that he is a pathetic excuse for a DM who will throw his players' PCs under the bus to prove a silly point, which he never even succeeded in proving. I could go on and on about how sad, sorry and childish this whole set up was, but you're the type who will keep patting his back about how kewl his character was conjuring up chairs and screwing with the low level dude. Man you're cool. you're a joke and your DM's an even bigger joke.
Korhal_IV 09-05-06, 04:29 PM	Dag says it all perfectly. This entire exercise by your DM was an immature undertaking. That you played along with it says almost as much about your poor judgment as it does about his.
2nd Ed Paladin 09-05-06, 04:47 PM	What Dag and Korhal said. If you were there to help them roleplay why didn't your character talk to them instead of an NPC? So now the lesson is: If you roleplay you'll get your @ss handed to you by an epic wizard. I realize the guy was being immature but that reeks.
Krompt 09-05-06, 06:10 PM	Alright look, read his post again, he was called in by the DM to help them roleplay and offer them LIMITED help on their mission, if it would have panned out correctly and no one ended up being an idiot his Epic Level wizard was going to travel with them, offering them buffs and other helpful spells but I doubt he would have entered combat and cast any damage spells like Fireball, Magic Missle, or his Elemental Ball Spell. The Entire point of his character being there was to help the other PCs out, but Ingame with their quest and Out of Game with their Roleplaying. The only reason he blew this PC away was because he insulted nicholcm's family which is dead and was killed by his PC's brother. Could the other player have known this..No, he couldnt have, but then again I dont know what nicholcm and the DM talked about for 10 minutes..it could have been that the entire time they were talking the DM was telling nicholcm's PC that there was some trouble in some distant land and might contain clues to the slaughter of his Family and friends. The DM could have stepped in and stopped the duel, yes, he could have had Generic Raiding Party Number 6 enter the town at that moment and let the Epic Wizard take care of them all in one spell to show the other Characters the power he wielded. But oh well, whats done is done, just go back to insulting him and his DM all you want
was_fired 09-05-06, 07:56 PM	Both you and the players were wrong. You were wrong for RPing for ten minutes with the bartender. A random guest hogging the spotlight does not encourage roleplaying it makes the PCs suspect favortism and makes them want to fix it. Now should you have engaged the bartender briefly asking if there were any heroes maybe joking to him that you meant besides yourself and then RP with them that would be a different story. You didn't however. Your response to the mage duel was perfectly acceptable however. That said it did hurt their group as a whole.
Dolomite 09-05-06, 08:28 PM	Ok to those that missed the point: There was nothing that would have stopped them from walking up and getting involved in the conversation and getting to know the Epic Wizard and one of them got the hint. I have been thru this several times and usually if everybody else is sitting on their hands being lumps of lead then I will take the ball and run with it. This DM is trying to get the group to actually interact and be in a role and instead of just making a NPC that can handle themselves, he got someone who was mature enough to hold his testosterone in check and roleplay with them. Also I get the feeling that the DM knew who was going to be the problem and just let nature takes his course. The both of you did good and taught them that you dont get to go around dumping on people and not expect something bad to happen. Also you don't get attention unless you DO SOMETHING besides sit at the table or in your room expecting life to knock at your door.
pres_man 09-05-06, 08:41 PM	I hope in the next session the DM lets you play an ancient red dragon, then you can really whoop up on them. Yup, you are the coolest, nothing like silly broken epic spells to show people how stupid gamers they are.
InterSilva 09-05-06, 09:50 PM	I don't think the bashing is called for, I really want to believe for now that this was an honest attempt at help. Here's what I would have done though: You could make a character of the same or lower level to accompany the PCs. I know how much fun it is to get play out of your epic-level character , but it's kind of overkill.
Zuj 09-05-06, 11:13 PM	I agree with Dag's rant (a bit less harshly). The fact of the matter is, you coming in with you epic character was unnecessary. Why couldn't you have made someone of comparable level to help them roleplay? Furthermore, why did you feel the need to kill his character? If the PC is new, no matter how dumb they are acting, you shouldn't just go and kill them. You alienate the player, and it makes you look like a total ass no matter how good of a "roleplayer" you are. Even if the player got what was coming to him, it isn't your job to serve it up to him. It's the DM's. The player should have been spoken to in an OOC manner and alerted to exactly what would happen. If you were in my group, I would kindly direct you to the nearest exit.
Dolomite 09-05-06, 11:33 PM	But we are in agreement that the Player that started that Mage's Duel pretty much was meta gaming in the first place. If he had been smart he would have noticed how powered up this guy was, then he should have gotten the hint after TWO FIREBALLS?!?!. ((EDIT: I mean after the offending Mage casted it on the Epic Wizard during the Duel, sorry for any confusion.)) He figured it was another person he could bully and punk, that is the only thing that explains why he decided to lose his mind and be stupid...He thought he could get away with it. For assuming things instead of paying attention to the fact he was out of his league he pushed it and got punked, this should happen more often.
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 12:02 AM	He said 10 min game time not real time and wizard woulda been lynched anyway for burning tavern down with fireballs.
Atirakis 09-06-06, 12:24 AM	As an epic wizard the way to handle it properly would have been to cast something like hold person, walk up to him with your knife drawn and place it on his throat and say "I could kill you now, or you can accept my offer of a truce" You were there to help and instead took out their strongest guy, please dont ever help my party out.
Dolomite 09-06-06, 12:31 AM	As an epic wizard the way to handle it properly would have been to cast something like hold person, walk up to him with your knife drawn and place it on his throat and say "I could kill you now, or you can accept my offer of a truce" You were there to help and instead took out their strongest guy, please dont ever help my party out. There is no "right way" of doing this. You are missing the point, some people would do what you said and others would string this punks guts across the townsquare. Dude I would think that you would have enough brains(( unlike the guy that asked for the beatdown)) to actually talk to this guy and not provoke a fight.
Atirakis 09-06-06, 12:37 AM	But there is a right way. The right way is to show them a better way of playing then just survival of the fightest. He was there in a capacity of helping them and instead allowed himself to be baited into a death match. Even then he could have used non lethal means to "teach him a lesson" but instead decided to show off with his Uber Leet Wizard.
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 12:40 AM	IMO, no better way to show that there are powers not to mess with than dying to one of them.
Atirakis 09-06-06, 12:42 AM	A PC killing another PC is not a lesson in not messing with powers you dont know. Its a lesson in how to ruin a fun night of gaming.
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 12:49 AM	Insult family (living or dead) and you get whatever is coming to ya.
Atirakis 09-06-06, 12:59 AM	Yes yes but that doesnt negate the fact that he was there to help them. That means that he needed to pull his punches. Like someone else said, nobody knew this wizards level. He didnt know how outclassed he was. The wizard knew how easily this man could be defeated and choose to blow him up. I would say that if he isnt already that an alignment shift to Chaotic Neutral is in order.
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 01:05 AM	Wouldn't they realize from being able to calm down crowd and shoulda yielded after 2 fireballs instead of insulting his clan.
Atirakis 09-06-06, 01:11 AM	Maybe but they didnt and killing them was a bad move on his part.
Sapp 09-06-06, 01:12 AM	Powerfull could mean lvl10 or less, the guy at the bar could just be showing off. Is it a clever idea to challenge you and throw fireballs around? No for sure it is not. But that alone is no justification given that you had metagame knowledge he had not. Would you have proceeded the same way if you had known him to be lvl 30 for example? No. (EDIT: No metagame knowledge was being used. The 28th level Epic wizard would be able to tell whether the PC was an Epic wizard or not...) I'm rather doubtful that a 30th level Wizard could hide the fact that he was an Epic wizard from another Epic Wizard. Epic Wizards usually have permanent and persistant buffs and contingencies which glow like nuclear reactors to those who can detect. Not only that, but an Epic Wizard has access to spells that can grant them legendary knowledge (not that Epic Wizards don't already have insanely high Knowledge skills). They would have likely heard of other Epic Wizards, even ones living in other planes. To hide all these from another Epic Wizard, you'd need an absurd Epic Cloaking Spell (which even affects knowledge checks). I don't think 30th level wizard would be able to develop such a spell to hide so much. Affecting the memory of not just every person in the world, but the very memory of the cosmos itself! You'd need like... a 50th level wizard! OCC Knowledge or not, I think a level 28 character is going to accept any challenge to a mage's duel that comes his way. If, of course, he goes for that sort of thing. If he's the dueling sort, he's not likely to back down from any challenge, seeings how he's an epic arch mage. Besides, if he didn't metagame, he'd have likely opened with the elemental blast, rather than give the poor fool a chance to concede before being blown to bits. That doesn't sound right. A smart wizard (one that lives to the ripe old level of 28) would not randomly accept challenges. He would know beforehand as much as possible about his enemy. He may pretend to be accepting a challenge randomly, but chances are, he's probably abusing time loops and spending an eternity researching the enemy from the time the enemy threw down the gauntlet to the time he finally accepts the challenge. ----------------- I think nicholcm really botched this one up. Really, his Epic wizard should have killed the ENTIRE party for daring to associate themselves with this wizard! He should have killed the entire party, and then True Resurrected them, ALL of them. Then kill them again. Then resurrect them again. Just to toy with them. That'll show them how to roleplay... because we all know how much more patient the players will be with the DM's campaign after having been given a glimpse of what they could become after a few years of gaming.
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 01:17 AM	:schemes:
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-06-06, 01:45 AM	No. I'm rather doubtful that a 30th level Wizard could hide the fact that he was an Epic wizard from another Epic Wizard. Huh. Level 6 is Epic. Or you just made a stupid post without even bothering to read the thread. You choose.
Sapp 09-06-06, 01:53 AM	Huh. Level 6 is Epic. Or you just made a stupid post without even bothering to read the thread. You choose. Huh? What you said made no sense considering the context of what/who I was responding to. Or you just made a stupid post in response to a joke without even bothering to read the rest of the thread. You choose.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-06-06, 01:56 AM	Huh? What you said made no sense considering the context of what/who I was responding to. I rather think it did. You're welcome to explain how it doesn't.
Sapp 09-06-06, 01:59 AM	I rather think it did. You're welcome to explain how it doesn't. After you explain how I implied that the Level 6 wizard was Epic.
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 02:05 AM	you were talking about an epic wizard knowing another epic wizard, when other wizard was lvl 6 not epic
Sapp 09-06-06, 02:09 AM	you were talking about an epic wizard knowing another epic wizard, when other wizard was lvl 6 not epic Since you didn't read who or what I was responding to either, here it is again: No for sure it is not. But that alone is no justification given that you had metagame knowledge he had not. Would you have proceeded the same way if you had known him to be lvl 30 for example? Would he have challenged you if he had known your level? My implied response to this was that "No metagame knowledge was being used. If the level 6 wizard was, in fact, a level 30 wizard, the Epic 28th level wizard would have known, because ..." I wasn't even being serious. EDITED OUT. Was displacing frustration.
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 02:11 AM	sorry, misread it
Atirakis 09-06-06, 02:13 AM	Umm guys you might want to retract your claws a little before Cat comes along and shows you all who really has the long claws around here...
Sapp 09-06-06, 02:17 AM	sorry, misread it No problem. I went back to clarify the original post.
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 02:22 AM	In that vein, I have to say "Thundercats HOOOOOOO!!!"
xlivid 09-06-06, 08:39 AM	Well, if they are roleplaying better then before after your little confrontation; guess it worked.
pres_man 09-06-06, 09:27 AM	Here is a question, did the OP know the guy was only 6th level when going in. That sounds like metagaming to me. I mean if one guy has info that the other doesn't, doesn't seem a very proper way to play. But more generally, if this guy is so powerful and has done adventuring, why does he need a group of 4th-6th level characters to do something for him. I mean he can kill them with a mere thought, why can't he do the same for their little quest he is going to send them on?
smp4life 09-06-06, 04:27 PM	Bringing a PC in the game with THAT much of a level difference is just a stupid move by the DM. Anything above a 2 level drift is probably bad news.
was_fired 09-06-06, 04:28 PM	Because unless low level people adventure then high level people have no one to impress. The cycle goes as follows: Step 1: A bunch of would be heroes go into a bar and meet a mysterious figure who wants them to get back an artifact of power from some local goblins. Step 2: The heroes get the artifact but in doing so learn of a larger threat which displaced the goblins and is coming near their homes. Step 3: The heroes fight against this threat for a long period of time until they learn of a planar catastrophe which will engulf the world unless they stop it. Step 4: The heroes stop said huge dangerous problem and settle down. Step 5: Eventually they get bored so they start fooling around on the other planes. Step 6: After several deaths the heroes realize acquiring wealth in this manner is pointless and that simply watching adventurers might be more fun. Step 7: The heroes introduce a big scary monster in a region full of goblins driving them from their lands. Since they feel bad about killing all of these goblins they give them an artifact to protect themselves. The goblins while fleeing their homeland pass through a village and use their artifact of power against it ******* of the heroes who gave it to them in the first place. So one of the heroes dawns a mysterious cloak and heads to a tavern.
Sapp 09-06-06, 04:58 PM	Here is a question, did the OP know the guy was only 6th level when going in. That sounds like metagaming to me. I mean if one guy has info that the other doesn't, doesn't seem a very proper way to play. But more generally, if this guy is so powerful and has done adventuring, why does he need a group of 4th-6th level characters to do something for him. I mean he can kill them with a mere thought, why can't he do the same for their little quest he is going to send them on? Because they're roleplaying, silly.
chava 09-06-06, 07:31 PM	Bringing a PC in the game with THAT much of a level difference is just a stupid move by the DM. Anything above a 2 level drift is probably bad news. Personally, I don't think that the DM intended the OP to bring in his Epic level wizard as a PC. Now if you take a step back and think about the possibility that the epic level wizard was a NPC that happened to by played by someone other the DM all of the OPs actions (esp since the OP cleared the major actions of his NPC with the DM) were acceptible to the DM. Am I the only one who has heard of this concept?
Atirakis 09-06-06, 07:41 PM	No thats what it was essentially but it was still wrong of the co DM to kill off one of the party members when he was there to help!
chava 09-06-06, 07:48 PM	But the NPC was not there to help the PC party, the NPC was there to help the players learn how to roleplay -- thus while the NPC was traveling with the PC party he would help in combat and such that comes up, not because he is a member of the party but because he isn't a evil person that is going to let a group of people hes traveling with be slaughtered. (The main reason I call him a NPC is 1) the DM is not going to increase the CRs of the encounters to balance in the epic level wizard, 2) the player of the NPC is not get XP awards for his character's actions)
nicholcm 09-07-06, 03:50 AM	Here is a question, did the OP know the guy was only 6th level when going in. That sounds like metagaming to me. I mean if one guy has info that the other doesn't, doesn't seem a very proper way to play. But more generally, if this guy is so powerful and has done adventuring, why does he need a group of 4th-6th level characters to do something for him. I mean he can kill them with a mere thought, why can't he do the same for their little quest he is going to send them on? Hi My Character didn't know the exact level of the PC, but did know that he probably wasn't particularly powerful and certainly not got a reputation due to various knowledge checks (he had never heard of him) As for yor second point. My Character is only one person (well, at the moment), and the quest is (will be) something that he could hire any bunch of low level adventurers or mercanaries to do. Ian
trapspringer 09-07-06, 03:02 PM	I gotta say, this sounds basically like a DMPC showed up to show off, only the DM's friend ran it for him. I mean, I don't want to be too harsh because I know if you did this at my table with a character of the same level as the party I would have no problems with this what so ever. I can see where you are coming from, the situation just strikes me as a total snafu and general failure to complete the mission. Try to see it from the other guys perspective. Basically, what you did was extremely not cowboy (that whole code of honor thing... yea, not feelin' it). Of course, if you are playing an evil wizard, then it is the DMs fault for putting the party in that spot, good job on a good role play session.
Atirakis 09-07-06, 03:06 PM	Yeah way to show them that role playing is all about getting the most powerful character you can and then teaching anyone who messes with you a lesson!
Keevo_Darkwood 09-07-06, 07:46 PM	No thats what it was essentially but it was still wrong of the co DM to kill off one of the party members when he was there to help! Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, spell duels are inherently non-lethal; all damage inflicted during one is treated as subdual damage. The OP's GM could, of course, have ruled otherwise, but I just thought this needed saying.
Sapp 09-07-06, 07:59 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, spell duels are inherently non-lethal; all damage inflicted during one is treated as subdual damage. The OP's GM could, of course, have ruled otherwise, but I just thought this needed saying. No, I believe that's only in the Forgotten Realms, where Mystra literally babysits the arcane world.
Bloodbat 09-07-06, 08:27 PM	I can see how the situation arose and I think that you played it in character. That said, you and the DM did not do very well in educating or role-modeling to the players. Additionally, you had so many other options I cannot believe you and the DM chose to have a conversation with each other. Better, I think, would have been your character talking to the party. You engage them and word things so they have to think in character. Perhaps mistake one of them for someone else (not necessarily an enemy but perhaps a friend). Be struck by the resemblence of one of them to someone you met before, perhaps a slain townsperson, someone you saw before in a town somewhere, anything else. Heck, your epic character might very well have seen one of them before. Maybe you even talked to one of them before in their hometown or in a city or something. Perhaps you have been observing the party for sometime and are impressed with their abilities (a bored epic mage might pass time by scrying on adventuring groups and remembering the days when he was only "level 6"). Your quest might have gained them 1. an artifact.magic item for their own use 2. fame/fortune/adventure 3. role-playing experience as they respond to your character. More importantly, you open the door for cooperation and intrigue. Who is this wizard that asks for our help? You could have shown up at necessary times and re-engaged them when their role-playing declined. The point is that you had a golden opportunity to further define for these characters who they were and what they could do. You could have explained to each character what you thought his role was in the quest or explained why you chose them. When you give information like that, players tend to latch onto it. These players might just be unsure how to role-play because they have not thought enough about who their character really is and what he does and why. Wiping out a silly wizard tends to be one of those things that ruins gaming experiences. It also tends to breed animosity between players when one is so ridiculously superior in power. Essentially, they have in many senses just been railroaded. Sure one of them "asked for it" but he at least role-played. You just did not use your best option and did not give him obvious ways out. An inexperienced role-player does not see options (which is probably why he never caught on that you were way out of his league). You did not lead, you followed his lead and that led to a potentially bad gaming event. Most importantly when you want to teach someone something, you engage THEM not make them sit and watch you do it with the DM.
tuffn00gies 09-07-06, 11:33 PM	I'd say he got what he deserved. Of course, I would have been ****** if you stole the spotlight for 10 whole minutes tooting your own horn. I would have said something OOC though. IC, I probably wouldn't have even given your character a second glance after you walked into the tavern. Your DM should be walked out on for letting you play an epic level character in such a low level game. Couldn't you teach them how to rp properly with a character closer to their level? Sorry. This wasn't so much a rant as you bragging about how you sure showed those stupid kids a thing or two. A rant would be them coming and complaining about you and the DM. I'm utterly underwhelmed.
tuffn00gies 09-07-06, 11:45 PM	Ok to those that missed the point: There was nothing that would have stopped them from walking up and getting involved in the conversation and getting to know the Epic Wizard and one of them got the hint. I have been thru this several times and usually if everybody else is sitting on their hands being lumps of lead then I will take the ball and run with it. Actually, playing their characters might have kept them from just walking up and joining a strangers' conversation. Did the epic wizard have a huge banner over his head reading "PC"? The group's sitting around the their table doing their thing and a stranger walks in and starts talking to the bartender. That has absolutely nothing to do with the party or the adventure, the the player and the DM waste a whole freakin 10 minutes on it.
tuffn00gies 09-07-06, 11:49 PM	IMO, no better way to show that there are powers not to mess with than dying to one of them. Oh, and here I thought he was there to teach them to roleplay. My mistake.
infideli 09-08-06, 10:21 AM	Yeah way to show them that role playing is all about getting the most powerful character you can and then teaching anyone who messes with you a lesson! You sure seem to have a lot of opinions without even realizing that they actually ARE opinions. Your opinions seem to be accurate for a cheap video game, but not for a roleplaying game where players act freely and view the arising consequences of their actions, good or bad. You seem to demand that the Player NPC (epic wizard) just had to be good and had to tolerant and had to be light-handed in dealing with the problems he faced... and the 6th level PC in the room obviously was not. I have some characters that would have polymorphed the wizard into a slug just for casting the illusion, others would have dispelled it with a laugh and invited him over to chat, another would have warned him once... and if challenged to a duel, fragged him with a most awe and fear inspiring spell effect that did not harm the town. The 6th level guy was being an idiot, and idiots often get into trouble. Imagine if the Epic guy was... a high-level guild assassin looking for some new muscle to take-out an ALSO evil enemy of his. He could have no bone o pick with the party, he could want to hire them for great reward, but the 6th level guy insults him.... talk about a horrible death! Actions have consequence... if there is no risk, then there should be no reward. G
pres_man 09-08-06, 10:49 AM	This reminds me of this game I played in, a Star Wars setting. Anyway, the GM wanted us to do something. When a guy in the game try to convince us (and did a poor job at it), we decided not to go, or more accurately not to go at that time. The guy then trying to "convince" us more, begins firing at us. Everybody in the game was like, "This guy is freaking insane, let's get the hell out of here." Needless to say because the GM couldn't handle not railroading the group, that was the last session we played. Really it still seems silly for this epic mage to hire the group. With all of the time he is going to have to waste talking to them and waiting for them to travel and then power up and blah blah blah, the mage could have scryed the thing he wanted, greater teleported in, blast anything that was guarding it (I mean if he can't handle it, the party surely can't) and teleport out. Besides if he really was looking to hire someone, he would have walked up to the barkeep and ask, "Hey Tom, you seen any 'adventurers' lately, I got a job I need done." "Yeah, there is a group over at that table, you want me to send over a round of drinks with you?" ...
Atirakis 09-08-06, 12:01 PM	You sure seem to have a lot of opinions without even realizing that they actually ARE opinions. Have I given the impression that I was stating anything but my opinion? And for that matter you do know that just because its an opinion doesnt mean its not right, right? Your opinions seem to be accurate for a cheap video game, but not for a roleplaying game where players act freely and view the arising consequences of their actions, good or bad. And your opinions on my opinions seem to be accurate for someone with no concept of cooperative play. You seem to demand that the Player NPC (epic wizard) just had to be good and had to tolerant and had to be light-handed in dealing with the problems he faced... and the 6th level PC in the room obviously was not. As a player brought in to help them learn how to role play better and as a character who knew that he could wipe the whole town of the face of the earth, I would say yes some compassion and light handedness was in order. I have some characters that would have polymorphed the wizard into a slug just for casting the illusion, others would have dispelled it with a laugh and invited him over to chat, another would have warned him once... and if challenged to a duel, fragged him with a most awe and fear inspiring spell effect that did not harm the town. Good for your characters... The 6th level guy was being an idiot, and idiots often get into trouble. Trouble. Not the grave. Imagine if the Epic guy was... a high-level guild assassin looking for some new muscle to take-out an ALSO evil enemy of his. He could have no bone o pick with the party, he could want to hire them for great reward, but the 6th level guy insults him.... talk about a horrible death! Actually the assassin could have just put him on the ground held a blade to his throat and said "One more word out of you and we will be looking for another caster to accompany us... We clear?" Actions have consequence... if there is no risk, then there should be no reward. The player was foolish but that was obviously why the DM brought this player there to begin with. He wanted to teach them a better way and instead taught them only that the strong can do whatever they want because nobody can do anything about it.
slacks 09-08-06, 01:30 PM	The player was foolish but that was obviously why the DM brought this player there to begin with. He wanted to teach them a better way and instead taught them only that the strong can do whatever they want because nobody can do anything about it. The DM brought in the player to teach RP skills, not correct foolish behavior. Foolish behavior is corrected by said character getting into a lot of trouble and either killing himself or the whole party for his foolishness. There are two situations where it is okay to kill a PC, the first is when it is important to the plot or is a final battle (ie Paladin's sacrifice or fighting a BBEG), the second is when the characters do something needlessly dangerous. The former allows for dramatic plots, the later keeps the players from taking pointless risks. Can you guess which one the mage falls into? As for the strong doing what they want, why is this a bad lesson? The strong do get to do pretty much whatever they want, luckily there are usually a lot of strong people that don't want to be jerks (not saying the OP was a jerk). It is also interesting that some people are finding it out of place for an epic wizard to accept duels but have no qualms about the level 6 wizard who is issuing them... Players should learn to view the game as a fantasy world were people still react as anyone would. If you picked a fight with some guy at a bar and he brushes off your punches like they were nothing, then continued to fight after he gives you the option to stop, you deserve what is coming to you. It doesn't look to me like the OP was trying to show off. It looks like he made every effort to warn the mage that he was outclassed without just telling him so.
trapspringer 09-08-06, 02:11 PM	Yea, but it was still the epic wizard sitting there saying "look how big my shlong is," which is why the PC wizard played his prank in the first place. It may have been a warning, but it was the most arrogant way of warning someone I've ever heard of.
1CentSage 09-08-06, 05:11 PM	There is a big and principle difference between a true NPC played by the DM and a PC that works together with the DM as a team. You are either a player that is you can play your character as you see fit from the ingame perspective with all the consequences for you and other players. In this case you should be treated as all other players, that is not bringing a vastly more powerfull character, not getting special treatment from the DM, etc. Everything else is declassing the other players. This is a principle out of game problem that can not be overcome by roleplaying or any other in game activity. It just may very in its impact on the game. If on the other hand you take the role that would normally be played by an NPC (especially one more powerfull than the other PCs), you also take all the responsibilities that the DM normally has and can not just resort to "Hey I did what my character would do, just roleplaying ...". Sometimes this kind of setup can work, but usually only if the quasi NPC leaves his ego at home and adapts his style of play completely to the demands of his "mission". Even then, the DM should be the one running the show and make the "dire" decisions. Everything else usually makes the other players think bad of the DM (why did he let this guy do this even though he knew we stould no chance?) and of the "NPC player". You have to realize the different layers of a game that get mixed up in such situation. These are some of the reasons why this kind of setup to me is a bad tyle of DMing. That does not mean that it can not work some time or with some people, but it will more often not work than work, as to me the example of the OP illustrates.
Reversefigure4 09-08-06, 08:14 PM	I'm not entirely sure how they learned to role-play as a result of this experience. What I got out of it was "Try not to interact with people, because you never know which one is a Level 28 Wizard who can wipe you off the earth with a snap of his fingers". Or perhaps "You can die at any time, and have no chance. Don't invest a lot of effort into your character, because you never know when Super NPC will show up and crush him."
chava 09-08-06, 08:41 PM	Or perhaps, playing your character in a stupid way and excusing it as 'roleplaying' is not a reason that your DM should deus machina to save your life. Granted, I don't know if this is true for the DM that the OP was talking about, but in the very first game I ever played the DM had previously run a campaign set in the same world and decided that they characters from the previous campaign still existed in the world. Thus he warned us to be careful if we wanted to keep our characters alive bc not only were their true book NPCs around that were stronger than us (and would have complete political right to kill us should we insult them in court) but some of his previous PCs were around and he would play those as NPC, but they have all of the flaws, personalities, insanities, and character traits that were developed by the previous character and that approaching any of them in the 'wrong' way would also get you killed. AND the fact that your characters are NOT immortal and NOT the most powerful people to walk the earth would be a known background fact. If at that point we had done something as stupid as the 6th-level wizard our DM probably would have had us start working on a new character long before the epic level wizard fried us.
Bloodbat 09-08-06, 11:11 PM	The original poster wanted to teach these players how to role-play. It has been my experience that many, though certainly not all, players who make poor in-gaming decisions are novices at role-playing. They cannot think fast enough or creatively enough or are not confident enough to take on the role or fear sounding silly in a group of friends when they talk/act/pretend in character. When they are inexperienced or novice role-players they default to what they do know, which is often bad character decisions. Often these bad character decisions involve fighting something that did not need to be fought. The fact that one character put a tail on the epic wizard suggests to me that the player was either bored or annoyed at the new player hogging the spotlight. It could also be that given they are poor role-players they had no idea what to do. The idea of talking to this new character did not occur to them. Both the DM and OP knew this group was poor at role-playing. Both should have thought far enough ahead in their plan to engage the characters and not each other. Poor role-players sit and observe (and get bored quickly). It did not require any advance skill to know that the players would have no idea what to do. It was the responsibility of the DM and OP to teach and engage the players to achieve the original mission: teach them to role-play. A better approach, as I said before, would have been for the wizard to engage the characters by speaking to them directly.
FeceMan 09-09-06, 04:14 PM	I am astounded by the utter stupidity present in this thread; the OP has done nothing wrong. If you are going to blame someone, blame the immature, dead PC. He got what he deserved, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.
1CentSage 09-09-06, 06:03 PM	I am astounded by the utter stupidity present in this thread; the OP has done nothing wrong. If you are going to blame someone, blame the immature, dead PC. He got what he deserved, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Wow, impressive reasoning. I see it all so clearly now... . Seriously, I do agree there definitely is "utter stupidity present in this thread". Someone was even so nice to enlarge it for better visibility.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-09-06, 10:43 PM	Wow, impressive reasoning. I see it all so clearly now... . Seriously, I do agree there definitely is "utter stupidity present in this thread". Someone was even so nice to enlarge it for better visibility. Ow.
trapspringer 09-09-06, 10:57 PM	He was askin' for it.
FeceMan 09-09-06, 11:35 PM	Wow, impressive reasoning. I see it all so clearly now... . Seriously, I do agree there definitely is "utter stupidity present in this thread". Someone was even so nice to enlarge it for better visibility. My reasoning is quite impressive, thank you for noticing. I've read through the posts, assessed the situation from multiple viewpoints, and have concluded that the majority of people complaining about the OP are clogging the thread with "utter stupidity". If anyone deserves a slap of reality, it's the people who are (purposely) misconstruing the OP's/DM's motives and trying to demonize them.
trapspringer 09-09-06, 11:47 PM	Their intentions aren't the problem.
FeceMan 09-10-06, 01:37 AM	I'd be less annoyed if they were being mean rather than stupid.
trapspringer 09-10-06, 02:23 AM	I was refering to the DM and his buddy in the OP, just to clarify.
FeceMan 09-10-06, 05:25 PM	I was refering to the DM and his buddy in the OP, just to clarify. Ah. I was referring to everyone else :).
Atirakis 09-10-06, 09:22 PM	I was referring to the fact that the DM was too stupid to realize that bringing an Epic character into a game of low levels was not going to teach them anything about role playing. I was also referring to the fact that anyone who was asked to help people learn how to role play better, who then turns around and kills one of them obviously doesnt understand the spirit of helping that was supposed to be taking place.
Tarvok 09-10-06, 10:18 PM	Look at it this way. The OP was basically a co-DM for the duration of the mission. His character was sort of the "Gandalf" of the group. Well, he was supposed to be the Gandalf, but one of the other characters decided it would be more fun to pick a fight with him. Stepping out of character for a moment... The problem with an inexperienced roleplayer is twofold. First off, he has yet to learn how to get into character, meaning he is still sitting in the room holding dice, and not in the room holding a mug of ale. However, this is a small problem, compared to the second. The second is that he has yet to connect actions and conseques, and also, yet to realize that in D&D, you don't necessarily fight everything that comes your way. A well designed campaign will include heroic moments, but will also include expeditious retreats, talking one's way out of a fight, diplomacy, or just plain not picking a fight in the first place. It's a lesson a player needs to learn: he will occasionally encounter something that can hand his ass to him, and is not meant to be fought. There are situations where it is best NOT to fight. And learning it from a Co-DM is a good way to learn it. I particularly liked how he turned it into an adventure hook. The fact that the character used was a PC from another campaign is immaterial.
FeceMan 09-10-06, 11:15 PM	I was referring to the fact that the DM was too stupid to realize that bringing an Epic character into a game of low levels was not going to teach them anything about role playing. I was also referring to the fact that anyone who was asked to help people learn how to role play better, who then turns around and kills one of them obviously doesnt understand the spirit of helping that was supposed to be taking place. Uh...the other player was a huge douche. He got what he deserved. Granted, I would have just melee'd the bastard (epic wizards...hehehe), but still. For one thing, the guy was already breaking character so that the little punk WOULDN'T immediately be vaporized. For another thing, the to-be-rezzed wizard insulted his parents. And made him look bad in front of a large portion of the town.
Atirakis 09-10-06, 11:22 PM	So of course rather than showing him how through good role playing any conflict can be resolved without violence he instead vaporized him thus showing all the townsfolk what a great guy he really is. :rolleyes:
FeceMan 09-10-06, 11:34 PM	So of course rather than showing him how through good role playing any conflict can be resolved without violence he instead vaporized him thus showing all the townsfolk what a great guy he really is. :rolleyes: He DID RP it. And he was gentle about it, too. It was like...hmmm... "Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Okay, I'll make you look stupid. Look, I'm practically a deity. I could kill you in one hit. See that? That's you NOT penetrating my SR and me using an epic spell to make fireworks and chairs. Stop. Okay, I've had it." *Boom.* A real-world analogy would be two guys in bar. Guy 1: LOOK AT ME IMA ATTENTION ***** Guy 2: Stop that. Guy 1: IM AWSUM Guy 2: Stop that. Guy 1: IMA KILL YOU Guy 2: Stop that. Guy 1: [Punches at Guy 2.] Guy 2: [Dodges the blows with ease. Makes Guy 1 look stupid by letting him crash into things and break objects.] Guy 1: U DOUCHE I H8 U SO MUCH Guy 2: I'm better than you. I could lay you out in one hit. Guy 1: HAHAHA UR PARENTS WHO R DED Guy 2: That's it. [Clobberknocks Guy 1.] Guy 1: DUDE WTF NOT KEWL
Dag 09-11-06, 01:23 AM	Had my say about this post back on page 1. Figured I'd look in to see why it merited 3 pages of debate. Now I understand why, posters like the faceman who come at us with the same adolescent mentality and intelligence of the OP playing at insult laden 'gotcha-last!' Thought this post was sad from the beginning and didn't think anything could degrade it beyond the actions and silliness of the OP but I've been proven wrong. Let this thing die already, it's more an argument about maturity level than anything else and the 13 year olds will not understand the errors of the OP's actions for another 8 to 10 years...Maybe longer in the case of a guy like FaceMan. Dag is Out.
Sapp 09-11-06, 01:30 AM	"Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Okay, I'll make you look stupid. Look, I'm practically a deity. I could kill you in one hit. See that? That's you NOT penetrating my SR and me using an epic spell to make fireworks and chairs. Stop. Okay, I've had it." Prestidigitation is not an epic spell. I don't disagree with what the Epic PC did. I disagree with what the player of the Epic PC did. I also disagree with what the DM encouraged. You seem to have trouble distinguishing the two. Most of the criticisms on this thread are against the player, not the PC. While the PC might have not done anything wrong, what his player did was unnecessary... and frankly, laughable (unintentionally so). It's not the end of the world, of course. Perhaps that gaming group in particular is extremely forgiving or light-hearted. In that case, I applaud their maturity.
KingSpoom 09-11-06, 03:29 AM	The only reason he blew this PC away was because he insulted nicholcm's family which is dead and was killed by his PC's brother. Rule #X Never kill a character with the explanation of "it's what my character would have done". OP and DM lacked foresight. Dead guy lacked something as well.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 09-11-06, 03:47 PM	Wow, just wow. I think we'll start here: My Character: Lvl 23 Wizard, Lvl 5 Arcmage (and a couple of hundred XP from next level) I had been invited to participate in a game that my DM is running for a new group who seems to be having problems roleplaying so he invited me along to help them get into character. My briefing was simple, join up with the PC’s and give limited assistance in their mission (deal was I would get discretionary roleplaying experience only and maybe an in character reward in the form of a new lead in my overall objective – revenge for the death of my entire town and family due to my older brother, I’ve got close a few times but never been able to get to him face to face). What the hell kind of retarded DM allows a PC to enter a game when he is 22 levels higher then the rest of the party? Seriousely WTF is he smoking. 2 levels usually indacates a power lgap, 22 levels is like letting you play Kord, instead of just a cleric to Kord. How would you feel if you were playing your godly mage in that game, and new player showed up with Mystra as his PC? Talk about favortism, this is so far beyond an extreem example of it, its rediculouse. As usual, the opening setting was in a tavern that the party is using as a base of operations (and is also my old stomping grounds). The party is already at the tavern and the DM gives a full description of me entering the tavern. I go up and talk to my old friend the barkeep (good 10 minutes game time of PC-NPC In short you hogged the spot light for the first ten min, with nothing really important. One of the PC’s who seemed to be getting bored decided to use an illusion spell to make a demonic tail grow out of my backside (Please note that my PC and the barkeep had been talking about old times and included how my friends and I had saved the town from a demonic attack a few years back, this should also have hinted that I wasn’t a weak wizard) Your surpised someone got bored of watching you and the DM jerk each other off with your god like character? Did the thought that maybe the other players wanted to play ever cross you mind? Seriousely dude get over yourself. The PC, instead of any attempt at roleplaying, challenged me to a mage duel (he thought he was hard because he was level 6 and the rest of the party was level 4). OOC I rolled my eyes, looked at the DM and with his slight nod I sighed and in character accepted (we believe that the player was under the thinking that the DM wouldn’t put him up against something he couldn’t handle). At this point we had a food break and I spoke to the DM and told him that roleplay wise my character would just wipe this guy quickly with a single spell, but from a game point of view should I give him a gentle taste to make him realise that he was totally outclassed and give him a chance to back out. DM asked if I wouldn’t mind doing that. Onto the mage duel, I let him take the first move. He launches a fireball at me and rolls well for damage. I’m still standing with plenty of HP left. I then cast reflective armour (an Epic Level created Spell, powerful mage armour combined with the ability on a successful SR check to allow me to cast one of my spells of equal level or lower to the one cast at me at instant speed – and yes it took three quests to get the information etc. I needed to create the spell). He then launched another fire ball (doesn’t this guy have any imagination was my thought at the time), I made the SR check and cast prestigitation (sp?) to make some fireworks to please the crowd (yes my PC is a show off in character), I also made a few comments about how I didn’t know I was fighting him as it was such a waste of time and how I had known 1st year students with more talent than him and that if he was half as smart as he thought he was he would give up before I wipe him from the face of the planet. Some magic missiles this time, my character yawns and does another prestigitation to conjure up a chair to sit on. At this point the PC is hopping mad at me (can’t think why) as says how I’m humiliating him (at last some roleplaying!) and makes some comments about my parents (a sore subject for my character) so I launch an elemental ball (another epic spell that makes a fire ball look like a simple card trick). Players face pales when he see’s the number of dice I’m picking up. So let me see if I get this straight. He gets bored of watching you and the DM play DnD. Plays a prank on you. You toy with him, insult him, and then blow him away when he insults you back? You do realise that your excuse for blasting this guy into the middle of next week breaks down like so: He played a joke on me, I repremanded him. He got offended and challenged me to fisty cuffs. I accepted, and then made fun of him. He said "your mama" And I shot him in the face." Sorry I'm not impressed. I think you and your DM ow the player, and the entire group, an appology. Further more I would not be surprised if that player left the group. What you and the DM pulled nothing short of total crap, and wasted everyones time.
TwistedPuppy 09-11-06, 04:37 PM	Wow, just wow. I think we'll start here: <snip> What you and the DM pulled nothing short of total crap, and wasted everyones time. Given the tone of that post, I'd really like to disagree with a lot of the things in it. Let's see.. power gap.. hmmm.. nope, that's a big problem Spotlight hogging... sounds like it happened... Player got bored and did something not too bright to ease the boredom... been there and done that... Owe others apology.. I'd say so... Problem is, to me it looks like On_the_wings_of_TPK hit the nail right on the head. I'm just wondering why the OP and his DM felt such a massive gap in relative power levels was necessary to show them how to roleplay? Same level character could have interacted with the NPCs just as well if the new players were supposed to learn by example.
FeceMan 09-11-06, 04:44 PM	Prestidigitation is not an epic spell. He used an epic spell in conjunction with prestidigitation. Okay, he didn't use it to make the fireworks; he used an epic mage armor spell that granted spell resistance to cast a spell when it wasn't the other mage's turn. The spell he cast just happened to be prestidigitation.
TheDarkLord 09-12-06, 02:12 AM	How many times have gods sent powerful intermediaries down to the world and asked low level people to help them in their quests? What is different than a DM asking the same thing from a OP to act as an intermediary to help a party out. The story was abbreviated from what I could tell, what if the current low-level PC's were supposed to be looking out for someone and this person was it. Heck, one of the Low level PC's got the idea and started Role playing with the Epic wizard before this wizard dunce got the brilliant idea of putting a demon tail on a complete stranger. Sure the Epic wizard could have used restraint, but why? Most people like this idiot doesn't learn from half-hearted attempts to straighten him out, he needed a good spankin'. He got what he deserved. Now the OP can still help the rest of the party by finding and helping this guy with a replacement and teaching him how to role play detect magic and spellcraft like every other wizard who lives past 10th level. Ive been in a situation like this before, though the level gap wasnt quite as extreme it was still a 9 level difference. I killed the PC, talked to the person OOC, used my cleric to cast Raise Dead, then proceded to verbally abuse said character until he got the picture (we werent having trouble role-playing, he was just being, well retarded).
Hot Rod 09-12-06, 06:15 AM	IMO any fault here would be to the DM, as he asked for and approved of it all. I must add however that in my games I don't babysit the characters, offering them only 'safe' options. If they see a devil walking down the street minding its own business and want to harass it they can go right ahead. (The devil was probably bound to abide by the towns laws before being sent on its errand, but self defense is legal...) Also just because several jobs are offered and one pays much more than they expect they need to find out why before jumping on it. (The L3 party gasped at the 14000gp reward for investigating a lair 2 days ride to the north, rumor told them (later) that a huge dragon had been seen in that area. They took the 2k reward (+ looting rights) for reinforcing the defenses of an outlying village ;) ) From a RP perspective the players need to learn self restraint, if they are consistantly the biggest and baddest beings around they won't. The wizard's actions seem to indicate either: A) He believed the DM would never permit anyone to harm him no matter how stupid he acted, or B) He sensed a railroading device and wanted to foil the DMs plot hook by offending the (N)PC (In this case I doubt he cared what happened as long as it alienated the rival mage.). Either way he got exactly what he deserved (including the humiliation). If the players have made it to 6th level without learning that some NPCs (or monsters) are tougher than them again its the DMs fault. Permitting free access to raise dead with its level loss can actually help them learn this faster at these levels, its much harder to learn later on... Really, the OP's character's level was irrelevant (though excessive). Wizards are best when they come to a fight knowing what to expect (through divination, or knowlege). Even a casual query to a bystander would have told the fool he was outclassed. Blindly issuing a challenge & then not even bothering to gather information about your opponent is suicide for a wizard. He could have been resistant to fire, had evasion, SR, persistant/permanent buffs etc... even a simple detect magic cantrip would have lit the epic PC up like a holiday tree, and could have been used to guesstimate the opponents level by power/quantity of items. (Every slot full, and each one of powerful intensity... hmm, several million gp in items, I might be a little over my head here... :rofl: :lightbulb )
pres_man 09-12-06, 10:01 AM	I wonder if the DM would allow the now raised mage to seek out assistance from dark powers to kill this overpowered mage, in return for his soul and various other things. Some how I don't think this DM would allow this to happen to his pet (N)PC, which is sad because that is probably the most likely thing to occur. I mean somebody kills you and then brings you back saying you have to now work for them, hell I'd be looking for a way to off them. EDIT: By the way, this is how this situation feels to me. "I want you to work for me, and to prove I'm serious, I'm going to off one of you. Now you want to work for me right?" "Oh ... yeah, ... I'd love to ... but I'm actually kind of blind, and I wouldn't be any good to you. But why don't you leave me your name, and if I find a really skilled adventurer, I will send him your way. You don't really want me, I'm pretty pathetic. Well take care now. ...*whispers to friends*Let's get out of here before the psycho kills anyone else."
ShadowDragon8685 09-13-06, 02:10 AM	"This is pure crap by the way!" ~ Some unknown Worm. If this is a real OP and not chumming the waters, I feel very sorry for the 6th level wizard in question. Basically what happened is that the DM brought in a super-high-level PC from his Epic game and by his own admission hogged the spotlight. Yes, he got bored. Here's the DM and his friend gabbing on for 10 minutes while they have nothing to do. How are they to know that they can interrupt and start talking? It's generally rude in polite company. Eventually the young wizard got ****** off, and hell, I would be too. His only real mistake here was in not adressing an OOC problem OOC. I would've had to say "Excuse me, <DM>, but will we be getting to roleplay, or would you and <OP's name> like some alone time, 'cause I've got twenty bucks and can take everyone for pizza." Instead, he actually tried to roleplay, by playing a harmless prank. That's right - a harmless prank. That's all. Your response was ridiculous, to be frank, and the DM should have just ignored that whole stupid affair. Maybe had everyone laugh at it - I would think these townsfolk would recognize a spell being cast by the 6th level wizard, since your 28th level monstergobbler has been doing it so much around them. They should probably have laughed. Instead, everybody got all blown-out-of-proportion uptight, and then your Uber-leet wizard solved everything with a ridiculously high diplomacy check. Then of course, he's getting ****** even more, and rightly so. While challenging you to a mage duel was rash, it's certainly reasonable. He wanted some attention, something to bloody do. So then you basically compared ***** size, and felt compelled to show off your 28-inch black knobbler, and then when he was doing anything to try and get some upper hand, you vaporize him. That DM will be happy. He's gotten rid of his n00bs by ******* them all off, so now he and you can spend more time basking in the glory of your 28th level knobbler.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 09-13-06, 02:14 PM	This is an occasion that bears note. 1) Haven't heard from shawdodragon in a while. 2) This one of the rare occasions in whitch I agree with him. Bringing a 28th level anything to a 6th level game is nothing short of complete stupidity. And ignoring your party to gloryfy said 28th level knobber is just plain rude. I hope those players walk for the DMs and your arrogance.
Bloodbat 09-13-06, 09:02 PM	What blows me away with all these "the character/player got exactly what he deserved" posters is that they missed the original intent of this pseudo-god among 6th levels. The intent was NOT to teach them their characters were mortal or to teach them that character actions have consequences or that there are bigger and badder entities out there. The intent was to teach the PLAYERS how to role-play. Teaching a player a lesson in mortality when he actually DOES role-play (no matter how foolish his actions were, the guy WAS role-playing, which according to the OP was something the PLAYERS did not do very often or very well) is not only stupid but it defeats the original intent of the 29th level character. Those PLAYERS are probably less likely to do any role-playing now and will sit around passively while the game occurs around them.
John05 09-15-06, 02:25 PM	Yikes! That sounds like something I might have done... :P I'm SO glad my group is more mature than me and can tolerate me! I hope the group that you and your DM patronized is mature too!