Post/Author/DateTime	Post
angryman 07-28-04, 12:23 AM	I have an odd problem. You see one of our guys is a powergamer, though he always has a good "character background story" to justify his minmaxing. The problem is, he's no good at it, so he has these lame, although munchkiny sounding characters that do nothing useful and soak up XP, treasure et al. Example- his Dwarven Monk. The DM let him sub out WIS to AC for CON to AC..."he's a stone disciple of a rare sect that practices deep underground" and take DR from various source books, ending up with about 10 flat DR. Anyway this all sounded munchy, and he was IMPOSSIBLE to kill, but he couldnt DO anything...because of the wacky PRCs he took, he couldnt strike even magic, nor was his STR high. He always ended up lamely trying to trip large monsters and being tripped himself because he SUCKED but he seemed MUNCHY...does anyone else have this problem?
Ikariniku 07-28-04, 01:15 AM	I do. I have a player who fits the munchkin mold pretty well, except that he's very, very poor at it. He lacks the focus and knowledge to be an effective minmaxer, and all his powergaming ploys are either insulting to the DM or just plain bizarre. A good example is his "life-force swords" idea. I'll spare you the details, but these swords were basically hp-o-meters that characters in his backstory all had. Of course, he didn't tell the DM (not me, I took over later) about them until 5 months into the campaign. His blatant lies insulted the DM greatly, and he completely vetoed the idea on the spot. I' haven't had anything that severe happen yet, but the player wants to become a LG paladin. He also wants to torture people. Ugh.
fruits and vegetables 07-28-04, 01:49 AM	well, similar but not... a player just made bad characters. He wanted to do everything so he picked up 4 or so classes. He ended up being able do everything......badly. that was not munchkinny, it was just green player lameness. Now, i do know know another guy or two that thinks they know the game really well. He does not make useless characters like your buddy. His characters can be effective if sometimes nothing more than a copy/paste character off these boards.
angryman 07-28-04, 02:21 AM	Whats even weirder is that the dm insists he is overpowered, even though he hasnt killed anything, or tripped anything decent...he's level 15 and he cant even kill sword wraiths! Im not saying im good, but i was killing 2 or 3 a round with my angry paladin...
Harmor 07-28-04, 04:53 AM	I think I'm a Bizarrely Ineffectual Powergamer. Here's how: Dwarf: 1 Rogue/1 Ranger/1 Cleric/6 Fighter/4 Dwarven Defender I have 233 hp and use Divine Vigor (10 Chr +4 Cloak of Charisma, so 5 turn attempts/day @ +30 hp), to get a total of 383 hp per day. I go around with Improved Combat Expertise (taking a -11 to attacks, but +11 to AC) and fighting defensively (-4 to attacks, but +3 to AC because of 5 ranks in tumble and I'm a dwarf so my speed hasn't been reduced so I tumble while mediumly encumbered). So not only do I have a -15 to hit but I also us a tower shield that adds an additional -2 to hit for a total of -17. I have +1 Mithril armor with 75% fortification (+3 bonus). I have a +2 Tower Shield with Arrow catching (+1 bonus) and Arrow Snaring (+1 bonus). Basically I have a really high AC (+40 typically), but a -17 to hit with a BAB of 14 and a Strength of 18. So basically each round I have 1/-4/-9 each attack. So basically I only hit with a natural 20 on monsters and they rarely hit me. We fought a Storm Giant and I had a 49 AC vs. it...it only hit me once that entire fight before we killed it. Litterally I walked up and it was getting 3 attacks per round (4d6+21/19-20) and only hit me three times with natural 20s (one of which was a comfirmed critical that was negated by my fortification). I do nothing but stand in the middle of enemies and absorb damage/hits while everyone around me does damage and kills things. My saves are: Fort +23 (+25 vs. poisons), Ref +10, Will +14 (+16 vs. spells/spell-like effects) so I generally save vs. most spells eventhough I'm mostly fighter. I have a 12 Wisdom natually, but have a +4 Periphat of Wisdom and the Iron Will feat. Oh I'm also a sucky Ranger: Track (+8 Survival), Handle Animal +3 I'm a sucky Rogue: Search for Traps (+8, +10 if in Stone), Disarm Traps +3, Open Locks +3 I'm a sucky Cleric: Spellcraft +6, Craft (Alchemy) +3, Knowledge (Relgion) +3, Knowledge (Arcana) +3 - I get 3/2+1 spells per day and I have the Dwarf and Magic Domains I'm a sucky Wizard: With my Magic Domain I'm effectively a level 1 Wizard. All-in all I don't do damage, but just stand there taking damage... I am a Bizarrely Ineffectual Powergamer.
Bedevere 07-28-04, 04:54 AM	I had a load of players who I was the first DM for. They were attempted munchkins, in that they rated big numbers on their character sheet as a good character. Problem was, they never even worked out some of the most basic tricks for munchkinning. Two things helped my players to realise exactly how pointless their min/maxing was. One, I got one of them to run a game, and I basically single handedly won it with two skill rolls all night, and not one combat. This made them realise that thinking round a problem could solve it far easier. The second was before that though. I made a single character, who was one level loewr than them, and he attacked the party next session. While he didnt kill any of them, this was because he chose not to, rather than inability to do so. He left them all either almost dead, or knocked out, and didnt even take anything from them. He became a recurring character that they eventually got revenge on when they actually planned for the next time they fought him. To make it clear I was playing fair in this fight though, I showed them his character sheet afterwards. They had susupected for a long time that I had cheated, or at least fudged a few dice rolls. When they saw what I could achieve, they realised how over their heads they were. :D :D :D
SnowbearK 07-28-04, 06:39 AM	I like BIPM's personally. They're fun. To laugh at. What I find amazing is the people that want to be able to do everything. Good idea for a one-to-one game, but in a party, not only is it very rude, it's stupid.
rogue_lettuce 07-28-04, 07:22 AM	Yeah, I've done that. There seems to be a recurring theme with my PCs - high AC, low offensive capability - i've done it witha half-celestial/cleric/paladin/risenmartyr/otherthings, a VoP monk, another VoP monk, and probably a few other while i'm at it....:D
Archangel 07-28-04, 08:50 AM	When I min/max I rather make a high attack/damage combo then high AC combo! My last Werebear Barbarian trip master with 4 attacks per round didn't have high AC but could kill anything of his ECL (10) in one round and had that nasty DR 10/silver that almost absorbed all damage!
Theocracity 07-28-04, 09:50 AM	We had a BIPG in the worst campaign I ever played in. He was not only a BIPG, he was loved bragging about how much butt his character could kick (even though he played an "aloof personality" character who would never join in fights until they were already over...the one time I remember him fighting, he critically missed and hit another character). Unfortunately, he was also the DM's favorite character and was integral to the story. I got a look at his character sheet once and found it full of bizzare third-party sourcebook stuff in which he had to do stuff like burn experience to spend a round charging his sword to do an extra 1D6 damage. Any irritatingly roleplayed, plot-integral, third-partied out Bizzarely Ineffectual Power Gamer...what more could you ask for?
JoshRodriguez 07-28-04, 12:04 PM	what more could you ask for? To be kicked repeatedly in the voonerables by an angry goat.
fruits and vegetables 07-28-04, 03:20 PM	theocracy, that is bad man. not only does he suc. He is "The DM's best friend" (from worst DM thread). The guy may suc but he is one of the most powerful characters in the game. There are only 3 player types more powerful than him.
Theocracity 07-28-04, 04:18 PM	Originally posted by fruits and vegetables theocracy, that is bad man. not only does he suc. He is "The DM's best friend" (from worst DM thread). The guy may suc but he is one of the most powerful characters in the game. There are only 3 player types more powerful than him. I know DMPC, but what are the other two? BTW, for an example of the BIPG hilarity, this character decided to stay behind (as usual) while our characters went out and did some stuff on their own (in other words, not what the DM / this Player wanted, due to the railroady nature of the campaign). In the middle of the combat we've been engaged in, he comes running in from behind the lines (had a 70 foot movement rate), and gets between the party and their target (a DMPC antagonist who only this character knew was with us, and all of the other characters and players had every reason to want to kill). He then uses one of his class abilities, spending a good five minutes how awesome he looks while doing this, to dramatically float six inches off the ground in an attempt to indimidate us to stop a fight we hadn't started (because he was obviously such a badass). At this point, the mage asked "Wait a second...you're six inches off the ground?" BIPG: "Yes. With this kind of illusory fire under my feet, and...." Mage: "Is that as high as you can go?" BIPG: "Yes." Mage: (who had a Fly spell on and had been lobbing fireballs left, right and center): "Ok, just checking." The mage proceeds to fly around in circles way up in the sky, taunting.
tarkin 07-28-04, 04:27 PM	Note to DM of BIPG: You can generally kill them fairly easy. The trick is to use non-standard attack methods. That guy with an AC >40? Try hitting him with touch attacks... that have no saves....that affect things besides hitpoints. Examples: Enervation. Other Example: incorporeal undead that drain a stat. Then there is the Resilent sphere on him, kill his party members, then take him out at your leisure.
Puck 07-28-04, 05:43 PM	All these players you all mention realy kinda suck, but at least its just one or two players. When i moved to Portland OR i didnt have a gameing group anymore. Well i went to my local gameing shopes and posted up saying i was looking for games and what not. I got a few calls from people and going through a sort of withdraw from game i went to the all.....one day after another. Well, they all turned out to be the type of group (dm included) that wanted to be 40+ lvl and becomeing gods. To me thats boring. I want a nice game where i start at lvl 1 and work my ass of to make a character. Come on guys put some effert into what you make. Finaly however i found a cool dm and a couple ok players. But we realy need more players.....like in the desprate kinda way. We have the DM, and 3 players....we want 2 more players, so if anyone lives in portland OR by chance....let me know.
fruits and vegetables 07-28-04, 06:51 PM	Theocracity, Order of power, 1. DM's Crush: The DM likes a girl in a group...... 2. DM's Wife: A little weaker, she does not get away with quite as much but still gets away with almost everything..... 3. DMPC: We all know..... 4. DM's best friend: Usually very powerful..... The thread is somewhere around here. There are a hundred or more. Those mentioned above are the heriarchial list of most powerful players though. They get away with most everything. They can go outside the rules with special stuff. The are pivotal to the story. Whatever decision they make are the right ones. It go's on and on......
Galahad the Pure 07-28-04, 09:49 PM	In the worst campaign I ever played in, there was a halfling rogue/assassin. We were using point-buy, so he dumped 8's into nonessential stats like strength. So he had a strength of 6 and a dexterity score of 20. His primary attack mode was supposed to be a javelin, and we later pointed out that his damage was 1d4-2. We couldn't play a session without hearing about him creaming in his pants over how he'd eventually be able to make a death attack. "If I study you in combat for 3 rounds, I can kill you!" Or I can spend 3 rounds making full attacks and drop the enemy while you stand there watching with your hands in your pants. Either that, or the enemy annihilates the party while you don't do a damn bit to help. Not that you would, with your damage rolls of 1d4-2. My point: ineffective PCs are fun to joke about after the campaign has ended, but during the campaign, it's seriously irritating. On one hand, D&D is about fun and exploring quirky characters, but on the other hand, D&D is about adventuring. And adventuring is tough. You want the members of your party to be people you can rely on to make a contribution in battle. That's why there's such a thing as an adventuring party...because if you went out on your own you'd get killed. The guy with AC in the 40s who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn is not so bad--at least he's drawing attacks away from the other party members. I'm talking about the XP and treasure sponges out there who do nothing in or out of combat. Now I'm not saying everyone should play barbarians and blast-mages, because that's not a party that can survive either. I'm simply advocating that PCs should keep in mind the survival of the party in addition to the survival of their own character. After all, that's the kind of PC that would be inclined to be a part of an adventuring party.
angryman 07-29-04, 12:00 AM	My point: ineffective PCs are fun to joke about after the campaign has ended, but during the campaign, it's seriously irritating. Galahad the Pure...I agree 100%. Our Dwarven Monk PC, who was largely invulnerable- he had improved evasion, a ref save of about 20, a fort save of over 20 and a will save of over 20...his touch ac was god too...and lots of hps. And 10- DR. And SR. BUT he did NOTHING ELSE. NPCs would realise that he was not only ineffectual, but impossible to hurt, so they IGNORED him. And that's reasonable. Why would you *bother* killing someone that difficult to hurt if he does nothing? It's a double loss...so yeah, he was ignored, desperately tried to trip stuff and generally the NPCS and PCs ignored him. But you're right, now that I look back it was funny...:D
fruits and vegetables 07-29-04, 12:51 AM	honestly dude, that is kind of funny. I almost want to do the same thing. but i agree with you. It's just funny.
Galahad the Pure 07-29-04, 01:16 AM	I later heard (but thankfully did not witness) the story of a dwarven ranger who used a dire flail to disarm opponents. That's right...a dwarven ranger...who in spite of all the different combat niches where dwarves and rangers excel... ...chose to disarm people. The way each session would go was he would begin by begging the arcane casters to use enlarge person on him. Naturally, this became a drag as the campaign wore on, since the character wasn't entirely good at disarming, even though he was large. Not to mention that it was bothersome for the casters to waste a round casting enlarge person when they had access to spells like big explosion and you die. Ultimately, the player realized his character's pointlessness, and would spend the game wallowing in his own self-pity. Several sessions later the DM slaughtered that character mercilessly.
angryman 07-29-04, 01:24 AM	Well, our game also has a MinMax DM, something else i posted here a while ago...so if PCs aren't minmaxed, they die, Invulnero-dwarven monks aside. The DM actually mocks players he thinks arent maxed...eg- "Dude, your drow rogue has only 22 dex at level 16. It should be 16 -efficient point buy- plus 2 from elf, 4 from levels plus 6 from gloves. It should be 28." Yes, that's the DM who said that! So our amusing but misguided ROLEPLAYER is in a quandary- do I keep the other PCs happy by making an efficient character, or do I run an actual character concept that, while inefficient, interests me as an idea?
JoshRodriguez 07-29-04, 10:50 AM	So our amusing but misguided ROLEPLAYER is in a quandary- do I keep the other PCs happy by making an efficient character, or do I run an actual character concept that, while inefficient, interests me as an idea? It's really a balance of the two. Play a character concept that intrests you, but try to avoid playing characters that have no actual value to the party.
Galahad the Pure 07-29-04, 12:35 PM	What I find ironic is that it actually takes more skill to make a crappy character than it does to make an average character. If it's your first time playing D&D, you don't know about crazy multiclass combos or spell twinks, so you just go with what feels right. A dwarven fighter, a human paladin, an elven wizard. In any of those cases, it's going to be pretty easy to figure out how you advance, i.e. "I'm a dwarf who hits things with his axe. I think it would be smart if I invested points into Strength." In order to make something that downright sucks, you have to do a little more homework, and that's where you can see when a player is making the transition from beginner to munchking. Controversial prestige classes like the Tempest and the Dragon Deciple are noteworthy examples of builds the intermediate player will go for, and to a lesser extent the Mystic Theurge. I'm not saying good builds do not exist for these prestige classes, I'm just saying that to make an effective character using them is a bit more difficult and it's easy to make a mistake in the process that can make the difference between divinity and destruction. Example: I once played with a guy who was doing a bard dragon deciple. I thought, yeah that could work. Brd1/Ftr4 is a good entry into the class since you can get all the prereqs plus some useful feats. As it turned out, he wanted to go in as a straight bard. Why, you ask? Well I asked him, and here was his response: "Do you have any idea how many times per day I'll be able to cast cure moderate wounds?!" :OMG! The build ended up picking up the slack towards the mid-levels. He was using a DM-approved modification to the mercurial greatsword (2d8 damage, x3 multiplier, which I didn't care for) and was power attacking for significant damage. He ended up doing something really stupid to get himself killed around level 10, which was just in time for his build to fizzle out.
Tony Vargas 07-29-04, 01:07 PM	Originally posted by angryman So our amusing but misguided ROLEPLAYER is in a quandary- do I keep the other PCs happy by making an efficient character, or do I run an actual character concept that, while inefficient, interests me as an idea? You should rarely be faced with that choice. You can take almost any reasonable concept, and optimize it at least enough to be an effective contributor. Maybe not to the point that it's up there with totally twinked out ones, but good enough that you're worth having in the party.