Post/Author/DateTime	Post
atomisk9455 08-11-07, 01:52 AM	I was going to make a blind char with blind sense any 1 wana throw ideas in. i was just wanting ideas. :pile:
Kouk 08-11-07, 02:19 AM	Uh, you'll need Blindfight for that character. You will miss... a lot.
atomisk9455 08-11-07, 02:23 AM	i was going to use blind sense not blind fight.:(
Comus 08-11-07, 03:09 AM	i was going to use blind sense not blind fight.:( You don't just get blindsense for free. Unless you have a feat, class ability, or racial ability that's giving it to you, you don't have it. Period.
atomisk9455 08-11-07, 03:14 AM	what feats give it to you then? :P
Fireclave 08-11-07, 03:20 AM	Well, you'll probably want to pick up Blind Fight so you can qualify for 5ft Radius Blindsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#blindsight5FtRa dius). Or you could try using spells like Dragonsight (SC) or psionic powers like Touchsight (XPH) to grant yourself the ability to see.
Disciple_of_Salsa 08-11-07, 03:23 AM	First, some clarification. Are you doing a high or low magic campaign? It matters. Like, straight blind or blindsight blind? Why is he blind? Is he going to dress up in a suit and call himself daredevil? That would be awesome.
DrMorganes 08-11-07, 08:31 AM	Generally speaking, blindness is far, far more of a liability than a benefit. Blindsense and blindsight are high-level abilities granted by only a few classes (in fact, I can only name the Scout). 5' blindsight has some hefty prerequisites; +4 BAB is fairly easy - but the earliest you'll get it is Level 4. The 19 Wisdom, though, pretty much limits this to a cleric or druid. You'll be seriously hampered in melee for at least four levels; never be able to make any sort of ranged attack; be totally unable to target others with spells until Level 4, and even then only when the target is right in front of you; and be unable to read, which eliminates your use of scrolls and takes you out of the running for Spot Checks. This is all by the rules, mind you. Feel free to work with your DM to see if he's willing to let you cripple your character in this manner. The concept may seem cool now, but I doubt the rest of your party will be willing to put up with it for more than a session or two.
Kouk 08-11-07, 11:24 AM	i was going to use blind sense not blind fight.:( Even if you have Blindsense, you still should get the feat Blindfight. Blindsense lets you target the correct square to aim your attacks at, but the enemies still have 50% concealment because they are effectively "invisible" to you. Blindfight will let you try to hit them twice if you miss because of your (hefty) 50% miss chance. The "perfect" non-visual sense is Blindsight, but that is not something you can tend to have inherently built into yourself without a special race, or without a magic spell or item to provide it to you.
atomisk9455 08-11-07, 02:26 PM	In order 1.it will be a high magic 2. what are you talking about 3. a cult that didint like gis god slashed his eyes :weep: 4. no ------------------------------------------------------------ 5.my char is a wild elf scout 6. i alredy have 18 wis :twocents:
Genetic 08-11-07, 03:04 PM	If you're going to be a blind character, I would rely on things that do not require you to target enemies. Area of effect attacks or summon spells would be your friend... Especially if you can get something like mindsight. A blind melee character can actually work if you take the proper chain of feats. Look into Mindsight, Blindsight, and Blind-Fight feats.
trapspringer 08-11-07, 04:14 PM	Well, you'll probably want to pick up Blind Fight so you can qualify for 5ft Radius Blindsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#blindsight5FtRa dius). Or you could try using spells like Dragonsight (SC) or psionic powers like Touchsight (XPH) to grant yourself the ability to see. The win. That's the best way to do it legally. It works by level four if you're a full BAB class with good wisdom.
Max_Graeves 08-14-07, 01:52 PM	The 19 Wisdom, though, pretty much limits this to a cleric or druid.Or a monk...a blind monk could be fun, if a bit unoriginal.
LCD2YOU 08-14-07, 02:19 PM	Is this another, "I want a blind character but I don't want the pesky and hefty negatives that come with it so I want to know what I can get to offset it at 1st level so he/she/it has more abilities than a sighted character but I can go around and say how good of a player I am because I have a blind character!", threads? If so then go find the munchkin board. If not, at first level take Blindfight, put 18 in Wisdom and go from there. At 4th level, if you're a fighting type, you'll be able to qualify for Blindsense. If you survive the first encounter, and you're either lucky or the DM is pulling punches, good for you. If it's the former, may your luck continue. If it's the latter, why play a character the DM is pulling for and will most likely be unkillable?
wrecan 08-14-07, 02:26 PM	3. a cult that didint like gis god slashed his eyes :weep: If it's a high-magic campaign, won't he be paying someone to cast a cure blindness spell? I mean, it's only a third level spell. That's a paltry 150 gp, at PHB prices. You could be cured easily by second level.
TJ_bray 08-14-07, 07:22 PM	try looking into an item call "Blindfold of true darkness". Best place to find in it is in the magic item compendium. When a character wears this blindfold he gain blindsight to 30/60 feet (its been a while since I last did a blind character). The biggest problem I had with been blind with blindsight is my DM always had problem when the party ran into an encounter with something invisible, he couldn’t tell the rest of the party that there was an invisible enemy in the room but I couldn't tell he was invisible so the dm would have to give an overview to the party and then again to me.
fridesgerte 08-14-07, 09:45 PM	Another feat to consider is Hear the Unseen (Complete Adventurer) that lets you use a listen check to pinpoint the location of foes within 30 ft. Blind-fight is absolutely necessary if you expect to be able to do anything useful in combat--the penalties for being blind are just too great otherwise.
Scortius 08-14-07, 10:28 PM	Or, depending on the character (if it's psionics or magic or something) you could just kinda say they were blind, but psionically/magically/divinely maintain their vision; thereby making no actual changes whatsoever but still being 'blind' for flavor - then you could choose not to read or whatever. I mean, unless your DM is really weird about it, its just an interesting RP thing that doesn't actually change anything. Better yet, play a barbarian, call him blind, and then get a 2 skill-point boost when you don't make him literate so that he can't read regardless of his sight... min/maxing those skill points ftw!
ThkkBldstrm 08-15-07, 02:02 AM	atomisk9455, I too have often thought of building a blind character, but I keep looking at what you get and think "um... maybe not". So, I propose to you something else, go "legally blind". This can be accpmlished by creating a flaw, which is detailed here (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantBuildingCharacters.htm), that gives you a -6 to spot, and the trait nearsighted. From there build however you want and enjoy. Hope I was helpful.
Candin 08-15-07, 02:20 AM	Tremorsense, maybe?
RobbyPants 08-15-07, 12:13 PM	(Emphasis mine) 1.it will be a high magic 2. what are you talking about 3. a cult that didint like gis god slashed his eyes :weep: Well, given that you're in a high magic campaign and that your blindness is inflicted by a wound and not some wierd, magical curse, it begs the question: Why not have a simple 3rd level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeBlindnessDeafness.htm) cast on you? It seems odd that a character with access to 150 GP (the cost for a 5th level caster to cast a 3nd level spell) would be running around blind in a high magic campagin.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 08-15-07, 12:17 PM	Is this another, "I want a blind character but I don't want the pesky and hefty negatives that come with it so I want to know what I can get to offset it at 1st level so he/she/it has more abilities than a sighted character but I can go around and say how good of a player I am because I have a blind character!", threads? Ah, the old "IWABCBIDWTPAHNTCWSISWTKWICGTOIAFLSHSIHMA TASCBICGAASHGOAPIABIHABC" thread. It must be days since we've had one of those. ;)
wrecan 08-15-07, 01:05 PM	Why not have a simple 2nd level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeBlindnessDeafness.htm) cast on you? Psst. It's a third level spell (check your link.) Also, I asked this question six posts before yours. Still waiting for a response.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 08-15-07, 01:40 PM	Psst. It's a third level spell (check your link.) Also, I asked this question six posts before yours. Still waiting for a response. Cos just fixing the blindness would give the PC no advantage and would not be "kewl."
vegetalss4 08-15-07, 02:11 PM	Cos just fixing the blindness would give the PC no advantage and would not be "kewl." man i just hates that word. just listen "kewl":gah: but i would like to have the op answer to.
trapspringer 08-15-07, 02:19 PM	Tremorsense, maybe? That's always my vote. I think that the following trait is balanced: Blind Drawback: You are blind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded). Benefit: You gain tremorsense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#tremorsense) out to a range of five feet. Special: If at any point you regain your sight for any length of time, you permanently lose the benefits and drawbacks of this feat. You cannot regain this trait in any way.
LCD2YOU 08-15-07, 02:21 PM	Ah, the old "IWABCBIDWTPAHNTCWSISWTKWICGTOIAFLSHSIHMA TASCBICGAASHGOAPIABIHABC" thread. It must be days since we've had one of those. ;)I think there was a time when, like the ubiquitous Paladin threads, when there was a "Blind Character - what advantages can I give them" thread every hour.
LCD2YOU 08-15-07, 02:22 PM	That's always my vote. I think that the following trait is balanced: Blind Drawback: You are blind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded). Benefit: You gain tremorsense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#tremorsense) out to a range of five feet. Special: If at any point you regain your sight for any length of time, you permanently lose the benefits and drawbacks of this feat. You cannot regain this trait in any way.Why do they get anything? Why can't that be one of the feats they can earn with all the pre-reqs? They are blind. It is a huge disadvantage and should be treated as such. Does anyone know what the pre-reqs are for Tremorsense?
Comus 08-15-07, 02:26 PM	I think there was a time when, like the ubiquitous Paladin threads, when there was a "Blind Character - what advantages can I give them" thread every hour. "Hi, guys. I'm making a blind Paladin in an Evil-aligned game, and I want to know how I can force the DM to allow it."
LCD2YOU 08-15-07, 02:29 PM	"Hi, guys. I'm making a blind Paladin in an Evil-aligned game, and I want to know how I can force the DM to allow it."Throw in point buy and how you want to make the character with the VoP feat and you've got a winner. :D Oh yeah, LA and the half-Terresque/Vampire/Primordial Scion/Epic Window Washer who starts at 30th level and it will be complete. But then again only if your Paladin will actually worship Orcus thinking he is a truly misunderstood deity whose "troo goodness" will come out.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 08-15-07, 02:32 PM	Blind Drawback: You are blind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded). Benefit: None. Special: If you want to offset the disadvantages of being blind then start buying feats.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 08-15-07, 02:34 PM	Throw in point buy and how you want to make the character with the VoP feat and you've got a winner. :D Oh yeah, LA and the half-Terresque/Vampire/Primordial Scion/Epic Window Washer who starts at 30th level and it will be complete. But then again only if your Paladin will actually worship Orcus thinking he is a truly misunderstood deity whose "troo goodness" will come out. With a uranium katana.
wrecan 08-15-07, 02:34 PM	"I want to create a blind half-celestial tarrasque paladin/warlock with Vow of Poverty and plutonium two-handed katana. What feats should he get to compensate for his blindness that will let him eat babies? How about Monkey Grip?"
LCD2YOU 08-15-07, 02:37 PM	"I want to create a blind half-celestial tarrasque paladin/warlock with Vow of Poverty. What feats should he get to compensate for his blindness that will let him eat babies?"I stand in awe. :clap: :bow: Of course if your DM doesn't allow you to play that character, being a Paladin who eats babies, then of course they are stifling your creativity and are a really bad DM for not being able to handle a gifted genius of your ilk. After all they are ruining your fun and just because they may not have fun is no excuse. It may be their world they've created but you are in control.
LCD2YOU 08-15-07, 02:39 PM	With a uranium katana.The "unobtanium Katana" is far superior.
RobbyPants 08-15-07, 02:40 PM	Psst. It's a third level spell (check your link.) Also, I asked this question six posts before yours. Still waiting for a response. Gaa! :eek: Must have stopped reading after the 10th post :P (actually, I ran a quick word search for "Remove" to see if it was already suggested. I think you used the word "cure". So much for not actually reading the responses :doh:) Okay, still 10 * 3 * 5 = 150 GP. Even a desperate 1st level character should be able to afford that! I can't think of anything a blind character could better spend their money on.
wrecan 08-15-07, 02:53 PM	I can't think of anything a blind character could better spend their money on. Obviously you missed all the discussion about unobtanium katanas. ;)
_Jayne_Cobb_ 08-15-07, 03:03 PM	The "unobtanium Katana" is far superior. Well now you're just being silly.
wrecan 08-15-07, 03:29 PM	Seriously silly. Everybody knows the best katanas are made of phlogiston.
LCD2YOU 08-15-07, 03:39 PM	Just to be sure. For the OP, here's your answer for creating a blind character:Blind Drawback: You are blind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded). Benefit: None. Special: If you want to offset the disadvantages of being blind then start buying feats.QFT I'm keeping this forever. When the next thread on, "IWABCBIDWT.ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ", rears it's head, I'll whack it with this response. Jayne_Cobb: As for my "being silly", this is different than my normal how? ;)
trapspringer 08-15-07, 04:37 PM	LCD2YOU, I get that you feel really strongly about this, but why can't it be a trait, or even a flaw? It's not like the precedent for trading off strengths for weaknesses hasn't been seen. We do it all the time. The greater a disadvantage the more powerful the compensatory ability (although in keeping with the general flow of Traits, I tries to keep the drawback at least twice as crippling as the benefit). I don't get why you'd be so up-in-arms about this and not be similarly enraged over the various mutation drawbacks in d20 or the traits/flaws system in general. If you are in fact equally upset over those, you're not getting that across very clearly so it looks like you're coming out of left field with some whacky anti-blindness agenda. Help me out here, I'm not understanding you. Oh, and in response to your question, the get something because it is a trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm). You must have known that. I respect you as a poster, so how 'bout we skip the rhetoric, huh? I just want to understand your side of the argument.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 08-15-07, 05:23 PM	LCD2YOU, I get that you feel really strongly about this, but why can't it be a trait, or even a flaw? It can be. The problem arises with people who want something for free beyond simply a bonus feat for taking the flaw. You get nothing for free, not even blind fighting, so if you want the blindness Flaw then by all means take it, but if you're smart you'll make the bonus Feat you get one of the many required to collectively bring you back up to something approaching competency as an adventurer.
trapspringer 08-15-07, 05:32 PM	Flaw =/= trait. _Jayne_Cobb_ =/= LCD2YOU
wrecan 08-15-07, 06:00 PM	Oh, and in response to your question, the get something because it is a trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm). Except that the benefits and drawbacks of a trait are minor, a +1/-1 benefit/penalty at most. (Sometimes a -2 penalty). Traits also have inherent bonuses that offset the inherent drawback, and this bonus would siappear if the drawback were lost. If you give the PC blindness as a Trait, with a commuensurate, say, blindsense benefit, you'd have to take the blindsense away if he regains his sight (which he totally should as soon as he gets 150 gp). But this makes no sense in game, because the backstory for this character is he teaches himself blind-sense or blind-fighting or whatever. This means, he has, essentially, paid 150 gp for a free Feat (or better). Blindness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded) is a condition that is described in the book and it's a much bigger drawback than any trait. That puts it into the realm of Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm). A Flaw gives you an extra Feat slot, as long as the Feat is less beneficial than the Flaw is debilitating. Taking Blind-Fighting as the Feat to offset the Blindness makes sense, but Blindness is still pretty devastating. Moreover, you need to explain why the blindness won't be removed and "some cultists cut my eyes" isn't going to cut it (so to speak). Now, why didn't LCD2YOU explain this? Because this thread has appeared about once a month for the last two years and we hash this out every frickin' time.
Comus 08-15-07, 06:12 PM	Moreover, you need to explain why the blindness won't be removed and "some cultists cut my eyes" isn't going to cut it (so to speak). Granted, if they're cultists, the player can use a 'god-curse' as the explanation for why it absolutely cannot be healed. Doesn't even have to be a powerful god, as long as there's some kind of pantheon and they agree not to mess with each others personal curses.
Vharuck 08-15-07, 06:37 PM	I'm going to side, as I always have, with the side of "Being blind/armless/mute/deaf sucks and nothing else." Funny thing, I rarely agree with LCD2YOU.
wrecan 08-15-07, 06:59 PM	Granted, if they're cultists, the player can use a 'god-curse' as the explanation for why it absolutely cannot be healed. Doesn't even have to be a powerful god, as long as there's some kind of pantheon and they agree not to mess with each others personal curses. Except there's this spell called Remove Curse. If clerics can just cast unremovable curses on every 1st level character who irks them, who's going to use this spell? At this point, we're talking miracle or even epic-level effect. And if it's a curse from on high, it makes even less sense for there to be a benefit. After all, why would you ever curse something that gives him blindsense?! (I curse you with the power to cast magic missile once a day... Oh, and you have an annoying rash.) Wouldn't you curse him with some horrible curse that offers no benefits? Why not just make him a leper whose condition is not alleviated by Remove Disease? Of cut off his hands and curse them to be unable to Regenerate?
Meep326 08-15-07, 07:32 PM	I was going to make a blind char with blind sense any 1 wana throw ideas in. i was just wanting ideas. :pile: You might think about the Earth Sense (Races of Stone) feat or possibly talk your DM into allowing you something like the Lifesense feat through a listen check.
trapspringer 08-15-07, 10:25 PM	Except that the benefits and drawbacks of a trait are minor, a +1/-1 benefit/penalty at most. (Sometimes a -2 penalty). Traits also have inherent bonuses that offset the inherent drawback, and this bonus would siappear if the drawback were lost. That isn't strictly true. Many traits from Dragon have more significant effects than those in UA, not to mention the d20 mutations (which is just a flexible trait system) If you give the PC blindness as a Trait, with a commensurate, say, blindsense benefit, you'd have to take the blindsense away if he regains his sight (which he totally should as soon as he gets 150 gp). But this makes no sense in game, because the backstory for this character is he teaches himself blind-sense or blind-fighting or whatever. This means, he has, essentially, paid 150 gp for a free Feat (or better). "It doesn't make sense" isn't a reason in D&D. Anything and everything can be explained away. Like iron pots? yea, based on the weight the raw material costs more than the pot itself. Well gee, guys, that doesn't make any sense! Won't the players just buy them, melt them, sell them, and generate an infinite amount of money? No, because you can just rationalize that the pot must not be pure iron. Same deal here. (I'm not going to actually do it here because no matter how logical it is, the whole thing is subjective and you'll just shoot it down.) Blindness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded) is a condition that is described in the book and it's a much bigger drawback than any trait. That puts it into the realm of Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm). A Flaw gives you an extra Feat slot, as long as the Feat is less beneficial than the Flaw is debilitating. Taking Blind-Fighting as the Feat to offset the Blindness makes sense, but Blindness is still pretty devastating. A drawback in d20 causes the character in question to combust taking 2d6 fire damage every round he or she is exposed to sunlight. Moreover, you need to explain why the blindness won't be removed and "some cultists cut my eyes" isn't going to cut it (so to speak). Divine wrath and Epic level curses both make a lot of sense. If that doesn't float your boat, regenerate reads: The subject’s severed body members (fingers, toes, hands, feet, arms, legs, tails, or even heads of multi headed creatures), broken bones, and ruined organs grow back. After the spell is cast, the physical regeneration is complete in 1 round if the severed members are present and touching the creature. It takes 2d10 rounds otherwise. So strictly speaking since the characters eyes were neither severed body members nor ruined organs, it wouldn't work anyway (provided the character is naturally blind). Now, why didn't LCD2YOU explain this? Because this thread has appeared about once a month for the last two years and we hash this out every frickin' time. Nice of you to speak for him. If he's unwilling to explain himself I don't see a reason for him to post. I think he would be willing to fully illustrate his viewpoint if it wasn't just going to get slammed down by some Zatochi fanboy. I'm just curious if there is some backing behind his ire. *Note: Spelling changes made to quoted segments did not alter meaning
HassanNinkin 08-15-07, 10:41 PM	the theme of the blind character is the same as the theme of the legless character whose torso floats magically two feet off the air. Offset Blindness= Absolutely no difference, plus invisible creatures lose their advantage against you Offset Loss of Legs= Absolutely no difference, except you don't set off traps now.
wrecan 08-15-07, 11:05 PM	That isn't strictly true. Many traits from Dragon have more significant effects than those in UA, not to mention the d20 mutations (which is just a flexible trait system) I'm pretty sure d20 mutations is a d20 Modern rule. I don't own the Dragon issues of which you speak, so I'll take your word for it. "It doesn't make sense" isn't a reason in D&D. Anything and everything can be explained away. Like iron pots? Oh, please. It doesn't require rationalization -- merely remembering that weight in the equipment charts represents the encumbrance, the bulk, and not just the scale weight. At any rate, this is a bit of a digression. A drawback in d20 I was using drawback in the colloquial sense. Divine wrath and Epic level curses both make a lot of sense. Sure, if you want a first-level character to have an epic-level curse. That's why I'd like the OP to answer my question. If that doesn't float your boat, regenerate reads But remove blindness cures all forms of blindness, magical and mundane. Nice of you to speak for him. What can I say? I'm a nice guy. If he's unwilling to explain himself I don't see a reason for him to post. That's a rather galling accusation. It hasn't even been eight hours since his last post and you're accusing him of cowardice? Did I unwittingly step into some sort of personal feud between the two of you?
trapspringer 08-15-07, 11:37 PM	No, no. You accused him of being unwilling to explain himself. If you'll quote the whole thing, you'll see I asserted he would be willing to explain himself, particularly if someone asked and made it clear they weren't just looking for a fight. Now, why didn't LCD2YOU explain this? Because this thread has appeared about once a month for the last two years and we hash this out every frickin' time. Nice of you to speak for him. If he's unwilling to explain himself I don't see a reason for him to post. I think he would be willing to fully illustrate his viewpoint if it wasn't just going to get slammed down by some Zatochi fanboy. I'm just curious if there is some backing behind his ire. Don't quote me out of context. It's kinda' the nut-shot of online messaging, and if you've gotta resort to that... well, you don't think of yourself as that kind of person I don't imagine.
LCD2YOU 08-16-07, 08:10 AM	Wow. Go and study to recert oneself and wow. Ok trapspringer. What I have found is that many who want to have a "blind" character do so because they think it's kewl. Then they want compensation that in many cases not only mitigates the flaw but actually gives them benies beyond it. Yes, blindness is a flaw. Red hair is a trait. When you have something that is supposed to work, ie the eyes, and they don't for whatever reason that is a flaw. As a player and DM who doesn't use the "flaw/trait let's compensate" I fully believe if you want a character with a flaw, you start them as any other. They get no special bonuses. They get the same feats starting out as everyone else. Because they are blind, I'd suggest "Blindfight" is the first one. After that, they can gain feats as normal. If they can't qualify for a certain feat that would help them with their blindness, they just won't get it "just because". And wrecan is correct. Having to go over and over again why when we had thread after thread of "I want a blind character but I want to get some total compensation that makes me better than a seeing person" starts to wear on me at least. So Blindness=Flaw If you want a blind character, live with it. Start them off at 1st level with whatever their normal feats for what their class and race are. Again I suggest Blindfight be the first. Then, if I were the DM, I'd remind them of all the issues associated with being blind, moving slower (especially in a dungeon setting), running is an issue (No? Go outside in a field, close your eyes and start running. Get the antiseptic and bandages ready) and much more. If I hear, "You're stifling my creativity", I am not. You can play a blind character in my game. I will just have it that you are going to play a blind character with all the problems and issues that come from it. I will be very sure to remind them that at a distance they are hosed by anyone with a ranged weapon. Not to mention that them using a ranged weapon is the ultimate "shot in the dark".
LCD2YOU 08-16-07, 08:31 AM	As for characters from novels and such who are blind and uber kick-ass, a few things seem to be common among them: 1: You ain't going to get them from a PB character, not unless the DM has other ways of moving up one's stats other than 1 point every 4 levels. 2: They are beyond exceptional, I'd say in the 45 to 55 PB range to be sure. 3: They are high level. 4: They had exceptional training. 5: Most were sighted long before they became blind. 6: Most would gladly exchange their blindness for seeing again. Now in DnD: 1: Cure blindness is a 3rd level spell. Even with little money, I'm sure a good aligned character would be more than able to get a good aligned cleric to cast "Cure Blindness". Yeah there may be cost for it such as a little, non-magically enforced, quest. 2: Cure Blindness doesn't work? Heal and Regenerate. No? Remove Curse. None of those work because the being that put them on is such a bad ass? I am pretty sure that striving to make oneself better will get their attention and they'll knock any ambition right out of their head. Just in general: Most of our information comes to us visually. Granted in today's technical world there are special schools and such that train those that are blind in ways that are truly remarkable. But that is in today's society. Now go back to a semi-medieval, Iron/Bronze age or whatever society. A blind person sits in the dark and spins cloth. If by chance there is a "good-hearted" person who wants to help them, it is far more likely that they would get them cured of their blindness. The real issue I have is that I look deep into the society as presented in RAW in DnD. Magic is available and I don't know why a passing through town Paladin and his other good friends wouldn't be more than happy to impart a few Cure whatever gifts on the populace. In an evil society, blindness can easily be seen as a weakness and the weak are killed. What type of special training can they get then? If they are part of the "ruling caste" they are killed. If they are part of the downtrodden masses, they are already squeaking out a miserable existence and giving their child anything but food is going to be exceedingly tough. If the blind kid's parents are that good and are able to get the resources, again Cure Blindness is actually the easiest and best way out. So no matter how one wishes to slice and dice it, the idea of starting off a blind character doesn't make much sense when put into context. Now do you see what I mean Trapspringer? There is no benefit from being blind as it is so highly unlikely they could get any special training to overcome it just being able to do the other things that sighted people get to do in a limited fashion would be the best they could hope for.
LCD2YOU 08-16-07, 08:40 AM	Funny thing, I rarely agree with LCD2YOU.You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. I will think for you. :)
wrecan 08-16-07, 10:03 AM	No, no. You accused him of being unwilling to explain himself. I did no such thing. I explained why he didn't bother to explain himself, not that he was unwilling. Sheesh. Look for the worst in person? Don't quote me out of context. Says the poster who quoted my colloquial use of the word "drawback" and accused me of misusing a variant rule on drawbacks. :rolleyes: Look, you clearly misunderstood what I said about LCD2YOU. I never said he was unwilling to explain himself. As you can see, he's both willing and able. Rather, he didn't bother with it because this argument is seen so frequently he assumed it to be common knowledge. Why did I "speak" for him? Because I've been in enough convos with him on this topic that I think I know what his position is.
trapspringer 08-16-07, 10:25 AM	... 'K. I mean, I don't agree, but your argument makes sense. I just disagree with some of your basic premises. Thanks for outlining your point more thoroughly.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 08-16-07, 10:56 AM	Flaw =/= trait. _Jayne_Cobb_ =/= LCD2YOU Open forums ≠ private messaging. If you want only LCD2YOU to respond then PM him, otherwise deal with the fact that other people are permitted to respond to your posts in an open forum.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 08-16-07, 11:09 AM	There is only one way to play a blind PC and still be functional as an adventurer. Player: I want to play a blind PC, but he functions in every way like a normal PC. He is even effected by bright light, magical blindness and darkness, just like a normal PC, and he can, like, magically read normally and stuff too. DM: So there is no mechanical change at all, good or bad. No advantages or disadvantages of any kind. The blindness is just fluff? Player: Yeah, pretty much. DM: Okay, let's play.
trapspringer 08-16-07, 11:24 AM	Open forums ≠ private messaging. If you want only LCD2YOU to respond then PM him, otherwise deal with the fact that other people are permitted to respond to your posts in an open forum. Feel free to respond, just don't expect me to be all like "Gee thanks for failing to address to my post! You're t3h l33tzors!!1!" Also, I kinda' thought it'd be good for the full argument to be posted here being as this would be read by more than just me. It was sorta' a global benefit if he posted here and merely a satiation of my curiosity if handled via PM. Although incidentally nice job failing to address my post. Flaws still =/= Traits and _Jayne_Cobb_ =/= LCD2YOU
_Jayne_Cobb_ 08-16-07, 11:47 AM	Feel free to respond, just don't expect me to be all like "Gee thanks for failing to address to my post! You're t3h l33tzors!!1!" I expect nothing, particularly not leet-speek gobbledygook. I also do not expect to be told I am not permitted to reply cos I am not the person to whom you addressed your comment. If you want an open discussion use and open forum; if you want a one-on-one debate then use PM. Flaws still =/= Traits and Yes Feats/Flaws are not Traits. I went right to discussing the Feat/Flaw system cos it never occurred to me that you actually meant Traits, since Blindness is so clearly much more than a simple Trait. My bad. _Jayne_Cobb_ =/= LCD2YOU I fail to see your point. That doesn't need addressing any more than does "cats ≠ apples."
LCD2YOU 08-16-07, 01:27 PM	'K. I mean, I don't agree, but your argument makes sense. I just disagree with some of your basic premises. Thanks for outlining your point more thoroughly.That's all well and good. As wrecan stated, he, I and others have seen this type of thread many times before. It generally ends up with the OP trying to gain support to get a really kewl feat or feats out of the DM. The feats wanted usually and completely over compensate for being blind. When that is pointed out, more than a few of them argue that their "creativity" is being curtailed. May I ask what premise you disagree with? I have learned, wrecan can attest to this, not to say things that I haven't thought about. Granted I still make mistakes but if I have forgotten something or my reasoning is spurious, I'd like to hear what that could be.
trapspringer 08-16-07, 04:09 PM	Oh, don't misunderstand, I've seen these threads pop up every month, and basically the same arguments arise each time. I just never really took the time to grab you and ask for a concise version of your argument. 1. There is magic that can cure blindness. 2. It is unlikely a character would be blind in such a way as couldn't be cured, and if he or she were to be blind in such a way it would be dangerous to self-actualize. 3. Because it is unlikely, no such character should exist. Player Characters are exactly where such a character should exist. The fact that it is unlikely doesn't preclude it from existence. 1. Blind characters featured in fiction are, without exception, high level 2. A blind character in every likely setting would be unable to attain that high level because the systems required to get a blind dude on par don't exist. 3. Therefore, blind characters should not exist because there is no way for them to have been trained. I disagree with the first premise because I don't think it's strictly necessary for Zatochi or the Earth Bender chick from A:tLAB, or anyone else to be high level. I think virtually any character concept oughta' be able to be described at about any level. I disagree with the second premise because I don't think a world with systems designed especially for the sightless is necessary. I think a standard issue mentor-teacher dude could suffice and as such I don't believe there is an inconsistency here. I disagree, further, that it is ever impossible to explain away a problem or logical inconsistency in a made-up world. But like I said, I don't think your arguments are invalid; they're just based on ideas that aren't consistent with my goals as a GM. I would find a way to express something in a balanced, mechanical way that will allow a player to design his or her character, even if the cost was a minor hit to suspension of disbelief (and I do believe this to be a very minor hit to suspension of disbelief). If it's a cool character and it's balanced, I think it will only add to my game in the long run and as such I'm more than happy to accommodate the player's goals in character creation.
LCD2YOU 08-16-07, 05:00 PM	Trapspringer, those are not quite my arguments. I have no idea what story you're referring to either.
trapspringer 08-16-07, 05:08 PM	As for characters from novels and such who are blind and uber kick-ass, a few things seem to be common among them: 1: You ain't going to get them from a PB character, not unless the DM has other ways of moving up one's stats other than 1 point every 4 levels. 2: They are beyond exceptional, I'd say in the 45 to 55 PB range to be sure. 3: They are high level. 4: They had exceptional training. 5: Most were sighted long before they became blind. "I disagree... because I don't think it's strictly necessary for Zatochi or the Earth Bender chick from A:tLAB, or anyone else to be high level. I think virtually any character concept oughta' be able to be described at about any level." Now in DnD: 1: Cure blindness is a 3rd level spell. Even with little money, I'm sure a good aligned character would be more than able to get a good aligned cleric to cast "Cure Blindness". Yeah there may be cost for it such as a little, non-magically enforced, quest. 2: Cure Blindness doesn't work? Heal and Regenerate. No? Remove Curse. None of those work because the being that put them on is such a bad ass? I am pretty sure that striving to make oneself better will get their attention and they'll knock any ambition right out of their head. "Player Characters are exactly where such a character should exist. The fact that it is unlikely doesn't preclude it from existence." Just in general: Most of our information comes to us visually. Granted in today's technical world there are special schools and such that train those that are blind in ways that are truly remarkable. But that is in today's society. Now go back to a semi-medieval, Iron/Bronze age or whatever society. A blind person sits in the dark and spins cloth. If by chance there is a "good-hearted" person who wants to help them, it is far more likely that they would get them cured of their blindness. The real issue I have is that I look deep into the society as presented in RAW in DnD. Magic is available and I don't know why a passing through town Paladin and his other good friends wouldn't be more than happy to impart a few Cure whatever gifts on the populace. In an evil society, blindness can easily be seen as a weakness and the weak are killed. What type of special training can they get then? If they are part of the "ruling caste" they are killed. If they are part of the downtrodden masses, they are already squeaking out a miserable existence and giving their child anything but food is going to be exceedingly tough. If the blind kid's parents are that good and are able to get the resources, again Cure Blindness is actually the easiest and best way out. "I disagree... because I don't think a world with systems designed especially for the sightless is necessary. I think a standard issue mentor-teacher dude could suffice and as such I don't believe there is an inconsistency here." I'm sorry, I shouldn't have re-written your arguments. I must have missed something somehow, but they look to cover the same ground to me. To post it like this makes it look a lot more like I'm saying you're wrong, though. See, what we're really doing is disagreeing on the most basic facts involved here. Also, I have no idea what you are referring to when you say you "have no idea what story I am referring to."
wrecan 08-16-07, 05:24 PM	LCD2YOU: Zatoichi is a series of Japanese samurai movies in which the title character is a blind masseuse who travels the countryside defending the innocent against yakuza. He is clearly a master even by the first movie and his ability to fight is never really explained. He is most definitely not a 1st level character. I vaguely remember the blind Earth-bender from Avatar: the Last Air Bender. She had, essentially, tremorsense. But Earth Benders as a whole probably get tremorsense at first level (in a d20 sense). Plus, she was totally helpless if she wasn't standing on earth. Avatar isn't really D&D compatible. The problem, of course, is not that people want to play a 10th level blind character who has earned the Blindsense Feat through normal means. They always want to play a 1st level character who is blind, but has blindsight 60', which means they aren't really blind at all and can actually see in the dark. A blind PC isn't impossible. But in my experience, it is a clear indication that the player requesting it is trying to "twink" and couching it as taking a drawback. "I want to be a leper, but to make up for it can I have troll regeneration?" "Um... doesn't that mean all the limbs that fall off will grow back. And you'll have fast healing!" "Yeah, but I'll be a leper dude. That's totally angsty." If someone said, "I want to play Zatoichi", I'd say, "Sure. At first level, he was probably a regular 1st level samurai. When you're 11th level, we'll talk about maybe getting you blinded by some epic-level curse. Make sure you're prepared to take blindsense as your 12th level feat and save some money for the magic cane-sword, because if you don't have those two things, well, you won't be Zatoichi, and your character's going to be in deep crap.
Kobold_Avenger 08-16-07, 05:34 PM	OP: I would suggest a grimlock.
LCD2YOU 08-16-07, 06:26 PM	Trapspringer: I can see where I messed up. At the top, there should be a note that states: Blind Characters in Fiction seem to have 3 or more of the following: What I had no clue of was the stories that wrecan pointed out in his post. As for a mentor system, I can see that. As for a blind PC, I can see that too. However, in a mentor-student system, the cost is far more prohibitive than just the 150gp for cure blindness. Available resources to spend on the blind character are what is needed. Generally, I play that resources are generally scarce. wrecan: Thanks for the info on the stories/characters. Also, thanks for the examples. I wish I could have said it that way. Again Trapspringer: Do you know of any stories where the protagonist is blind, is human, an elf, dwarf, gnome, etc., that started off that way? See, like wrecan, I think that a blind PC is an option. Not one that I would be suggesting one takes at 1st level. Also, like wrecan, it seems too often the "blind" part is really just a cover for a player who wants something else. I like wrecan's idea of, "Want a blind character? Wait till you're 12th level". I'd let anyone play a blind character even at 1st level. Don't expect me as the DM to pull punches. Don't expect to get any feats for flaws. I want the player to have really earned something and not take mulligans.
Anaxander 08-17-07, 01:57 PM	LCD2YOU: Zatoichi is a series of Japanese samurai movies in which the title character is a blind masseuse who travels the countryside defending the innocent against yakuza. I think you mean masseur? ;)
wrecan 08-17-07, 03:07 PM	I think you mean masseur? ;) Oops! :embarrass
_Jayne_Cobb_ 08-17-07, 05:04 PM	I plyed a blind PC once. She was a bard, blinded by a villain wielding a cursed knife (thus rendering her blindess uncruable by normal means). Long sory short, the big villain of the campaign was the very same villain who blinded her in her backstory. The PCs killed him, but in the fight one of the NPCs - my PC's love interest - was killed. As a reward for her part in the fight she was given by the church an artifact, an ancient relic with but a single charge left which could cure any injury, undo and wound. It was pretty much her only chance to get her sight back but she instead chose to use it to raise her dead love (the NPC). She was not an "uber-kewl" master of asskickery, she was heavily damaged both physically and psychologically. Being without her sight, she turned to a class - the Bard - that focused on words and sounds, which largely kept her out of the thick of battle but made her useful, sometimes indispensable, to it. Characters like Zatoichi the blind swordsman are easy to do in fiction, difficult to do in and RPG. In fiction the writer has absolute control over both the character's actions and the results of those actions. This is not the case with a PC and in an RPG where the player only controls the actions of his PC and wherein the rules and dice, and the DM's interpretations, dictate the outcomes of those actions. The mechanics of the game impose penalties on a blind PC that a writer can choose not only to ignore but to openly flaunt in service to telling precisely the story he wants and in working towards his planned outcome.
LCD2YOU 08-19-07, 09:57 PM	(snip) Characters like Zatoichi the blind swordsman are easy to do in fiction, difficult to do in and RPG. In fiction the writer has absolute control over both the character's actions and the results of those actions. This is not the case with a PC and in an RPG where the player only controls the actions of his PC and wherein the rules and dice, and the DM's interpretations, dictate the outcomes of those actions. The mechanics of the game impose penalties on a blind PC that a writer can choose not only to ignore but to openly flaunt in service to telling precisely the story he wants and in working towards his planned outcome.What he said.