blindsight ?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

blindsight ?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
flamefist drunkenmonk
12-17-04, 11:15 PM my rogue (level 10) uses a blindfold of true darkness, from Arms and equipment. Now it gives me blindsight but i need to know exactly how it works, my DM read it and says i know that somethings there but i cant make out what it was. Now in one fight my friend turned into a dire bat (on accident, he couldnt really do it... so it didnt effect the game) but he said i wouldnt recognize it as anything except a "flying thing" (my words.. not his lol)

more or less im asking is if i see clearly, fuzzy, or i just "sense" they are there. Could anyone put this in a pretty easy to understand way please :D , or if hes doing it correctly, thanks in advance
Tsai_Auron
12-18-04, 12:16 AM Think of it like looking into a murky pool. You can see something there but don't know what it is. It's moving and kinda looks like a floating blob.

If a person were in front of you, you could tell there is something like a person there, but you can't tell what it looks like or even if it is a person.

Think of it as sonar on a sub, you can tell something is there, but you don't know if it is a submarine or a giant squid.
Gurv
12-18-04, 12:27 AM Basically, its up to the DM how much detail you get. As it says below, blindsight is usually a combination of other senses. So there is a lot of room for interpretation and if your DM says its not clear, thats his perogative: just be glad for all the benefits you get from it. At least you're not blind in the dark.

BLINDSIGHT AND BLINDSENSE
Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.

Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.

Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).

Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight.
Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.

Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.

Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.

Blindsense: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
janusthinker
12-18-04, 12:33 AM Auron, much as I dislike being entirely negative, this is absolutely, positively, wholly incorrect.

Think of it very simply: you ARE daredevil. And not with the wandering-drunk-in-a-mist version of perception in the crappy movie, either. It specifically says that you typically do not have to make any spot or listen checks within the distance of your blindsight to see something. The ONLY limitation the DMG puts on it (quite logically) is that you can't see color or read with it. That's it.

If your friend turns into a Dire Bat, you should be able to tell without using your eyes whether it's a hairy Dire Bat or not, not just that it is one. You aren't merely able to say "There's an invisible thing over there, guys," you're able to say "Guys, 12 feet behind us, there's an armored invisible Hobgoblin holding a short sword...and I think I recognize him...." (given the description of blindsight, I would in fact argue that it may well negate all flanking bonuses)

One thing, though, is that you do need to work out with your DM how exactly your blindsight works. It may be based on vibration, or it may make your hearing do crazy things to produce blindsight, but there should be some way of a foe sabotaging your blindsight. I would expect that most are based on hearing, so deafening you might be expected to get rid of most blindsight.
flamefist drunkenmonk
12-18-04, 08:31 AM very cool, thank you. Ill show him your posts and then argue my point a little and if he says no its still blurry and i cant do a whole lot about that, but oh well :D (its always possible to use that agianst him later :evillaugh )

but iv got another question about it, can you only "see" ahead with blindsight,like a bat, or can you see all around u, like sonar. I dont think that there are rules for facing but we "sortof" have houserules for them. I cant really use daredevil in either of these examples though because the movie was shown in the first person when he was using his "blindsight" (it be really hard to do in ... i guess "all around person")

thanks agian for the comments :D
Steelwill
12-18-04, 02:34 PM The most common interpretation I have seen of Blindsight is that it works similarly to Echolocation, like bat sonar. Bats mind you, can see (the blind thing being a myth) but their echolocation is much more acute (probably because of the huge ears on 'em). So I would, were I the DM, determine a sense that represents the alternate you are using to sight (hearing, enhanced super tactile (like cat whiskers), or something) and then only if the backup sense is interfered with, would you have any penalties (aside from those listed under blindsight's entry itself). However you are using a magic item for Blindsight, so perhaps you have no alternate senses that are doing the job instead, but the magic of the item is what allows your perception. So short of harming your Blindfold of True Darkness, you would be able to percieve no matter what, within the limits of Blindsight. My 2 cents.
Derren S.
12-20-04, 03:45 AM What you (or better your DM) describes is blindsense. Blindsight is much more accurate and powerfull (thats why I don't like the realtivly cheap spells/items that give blindsight). With blindsight you should be able "see" fine details as you don't suffer no miss chance to attack. The blob thing your DM describes would be at least 20% miss chance like blur, or even 50% like invisibility/blindsense.
primemover003
12-20-04, 04:11 AM Blindsight can't tell if you're wearing a bandoleer or just a sash. There isn't that level of detail. A grimlock may be able to sense that the creature it's fighting is smaller than a human, but wouldn't be able to tell the difference between and elf and a Drow. It also wouldn't be able to differentiate between a rapier or a longsword that the "elf" is wielding. No visual contrast.

It will however show exactly were the Displaced elf is, negating the miss chance.
Lord Schpungus
12-20-04, 12:29 PM The trouble is, in 3.5 blindsense works like 3.0 blindsight. In 3.0 there was no blindsense. Arms and Equipment Guide is 3.0, so when they say blindsight, they mean an ability like 3.5 blindsense. Blindsight in 3.5 is a lot more powerful than blindsight in 3.0. 3.5 blindsight is like seeing perfectly without the need for eyes. 3.0 blindsight is like echolocation or radar.
Derren S.
12-20-04, 12:56 PM No, 3.0 Blindsight works like 3.5 Blindsight.
The watered down Blindsense was a new invention in 3.5.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
flamefist drunkenmonk 12-17-04, 11:15 PM	my rogue (level 10) uses a blindfold of true darkness, from Arms and equipment. Now it gives me blindsight but i need to know exactly how it works, my DM read it and says i know that somethings there but i cant make out what it was. Now in one fight my friend turned into a dire bat (on accident, he couldnt really do it... so it didnt effect the game) but he said i wouldnt recognize it as anything except a "flying thing" (my words.. not his lol) more or less im asking is if i see clearly, fuzzy, or i just "sense" they are there. Could anyone put this in a pretty easy to understand way please :D , or if hes doing it correctly, thanks in advance
Tsai_Auron 12-18-04, 12:16 AM	Think of it like looking into a murky pool. You can see something there but don't know what it is. It's moving and kinda looks like a floating blob. If a person were in front of you, you could tell there is something like a person there, but you can't tell what it looks like or even if it is a person. Think of it as sonar on a sub, you can tell something is there, but you don't know if it is a submarine or a giant squid.
Gurv 12-18-04, 12:27 AM	Basically, its up to the DM how much detail you get. As it says below, blindsight is usually a combination of other senses. So there is a lot of room for interpretation and if your DM says its not clear, thats his perogative: just be glad for all the benefits you get from it. At least you're not blind in the dark. BLINDSIGHT AND BLINDSENSE Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description. Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight. Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does). Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight. Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing. Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum. Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects. Blindsense: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
janusthinker 12-18-04, 12:33 AM	Auron, much as I dislike being entirely negative, this is absolutely, positively, wholly incorrect. Think of it very simply: you ARE daredevil. And not with the wandering-drunk-in-a-mist version of perception in the crappy movie, either. It specifically says that you typically do not have to make any spot or listen checks within the distance of your blindsight to see something. The ONLY limitation the DMG puts on it (quite logically) is that you can't see color or read with it. That's it. If your friend turns into a Dire Bat, you should be able to tell without using your eyes whether it's a hairy Dire Bat or not, not just that it is one. You aren't merely able to say "There's an invisible thing over there, guys," you're able to say "Guys, 12 feet behind us, there's an armored invisible Hobgoblin holding a short sword...and I think I recognize him...." (given the description of blindsight, I would in fact argue that it may well negate all flanking bonuses) One thing, though, is that you do need to work out with your DM how exactly your blindsight works. It may be based on vibration, or it may make your hearing do crazy things to produce blindsight, but there should be some way of a foe sabotaging your blindsight. I would expect that most are based on hearing, so deafening you might be expected to get rid of most blindsight.
flamefist drunkenmonk 12-18-04, 08:31 AM	very cool, thank you. Ill show him your posts and then argue my point a little and if he says no its still blurry and i cant do a whole lot about that, but oh well :D (its always possible to use that agianst him later :evillaugh ) but iv got another question about it, can you only "see" ahead with blindsight,like a bat, or can you see all around u, like sonar. I dont think that there are rules for facing but we "sortof" have houserules for them. I cant really use daredevil in either of these examples though because the movie was shown in the first person when he was using his "blindsight" (it be really hard to do in ... i guess "all around person") thanks agian for the comments :D
Steelwill 12-18-04, 02:34 PM	The most common interpretation I have seen of Blindsight is that it works similarly to Echolocation, like bat sonar. Bats mind you, can see (the blind thing being a myth) but their echolocation is much more acute (probably because of the huge ears on 'em). So I would, were I the DM, determine a sense that represents the alternate you are using to sight (hearing, enhanced super tactile (like cat whiskers), or something) and then only if the backup sense is interfered with, would you have any penalties (aside from those listed under blindsight's entry itself). However you are using a magic item for Blindsight, so perhaps you have no alternate senses that are doing the job instead, but the magic of the item is what allows your perception. So short of harming your Blindfold of True Darkness, you would be able to percieve no matter what, within the limits of Blindsight. My 2 cents.
Derren S. 12-20-04, 03:45 AM	What you (or better your DM) describes is blindsense. Blindsight is much more accurate and powerfull (thats why I don't like the realtivly cheap spells/items that give blindsight). With blindsight you should be able "see" fine details as you don't suffer no miss chance to attack. The blob thing your DM describes would be at least 20% miss chance like blur, or even 50% like invisibility/blindsense.
primemover003 12-20-04, 04:11 AM	Blindsight can't tell if you're wearing a bandoleer or just a sash. There isn't that level of detail. A grimlock may be able to sense that the creature it's fighting is smaller than a human, but wouldn't be able to tell the difference between and elf and a Drow. It also wouldn't be able to differentiate between a rapier or a longsword that the "elf" is wielding. No visual contrast. It will however show exactly were the Displaced elf is, negating the miss chance.
Lord Schpungus 12-20-04, 12:29 PM	The trouble is, in 3.5 blindsense works like 3.0 blindsight. In 3.0 there was no blindsense. Arms and Equipment Guide is 3.0, so when they say blindsight, they mean an ability like 3.5 blindsense. Blindsight in 3.5 is a lot more powerful than blindsight in 3.0. 3.5 blindsight is like seeing perfectly without the need for eyes. 3.0 blindsight is like echolocation or radar.
Derren S. 12-20-04, 12:56 PM	No, 3.0 Blindsight works like 3.5 Blindsight. The watered down Blindsense was a new invention in 3.5.