Bluff/Feint Dm call not legitimate [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bluff/Feint Dm call not legitimate [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Turel
08-07-07, 04:49 PM Can you bluff someone that is blinded/dazed

So we are in a dungeon, and come across a elf chick and a drow guy, the elf lady gets felled in 1 round and the drow goes nuts (was his lover - cliche). He threw a darkness down then attacked me, no prob he missed and im not worried about the dark. My actions were as follows. I cast daylight (celestial SP) and attempt a bluff/feint check as my move action. Ive taken a 3.0 feat called Expert Tactician (DM as very OK with it) that gives you a std act against anyone bluffed in combat so i was a bit gutted when he said "he cant be bluffed as hes blinded and dazed from the daylight spell".
I put up petty resistance at the time and quietly looked up bluff in the Phb, nowhere does it imply that bluff or feint is related to the targets status, infact id been running it as "if its got 3 or less int then i assume bluff simply wont work" when a see that infact it WILL work with a -8 penalty.

So whats the call, has he just made this up on the spot because he was gutted his 2 BBEG's were 1 round wonders?? Or is bluff/feint simply not as good as i thought?
stargate525
08-07-07, 04:54 PM Sure you can feint him. It seems obvious it would be easier since he can barely see.
RainerNader
08-07-07, 05:00 PM If he's blinded then he's already denied his DEX.

From the SRD:

Blinded

The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

So seeing as the only thing a successful feint does deny his DEX bonus, isn't it a redundant maneuver?
Turel
08-07-07, 05:05 PM Thats what i said! He said "how can you bluff him", I said "well ill tap him on the foot and whack him in the head, or ill tell him im actually ..." and quoted the +20 dc from the bluff section in the PHB he said nope, hes not going to be bluffed.

just so you know, lvl 14 char with a 35 + D20 bluff check.

nope, the 3.0 feat relies on the target failing his bluff check, not his loss of dex
Vicerious
08-07-07, 05:28 PM So the feat requires your opponent to fail a Bluff check? It should be noted that this is different from attempting to feint: A feint is a Bluff check opposed by the victim's Sense Motive check + Base Attack Bonus.

So the real matter here is whether this Expert Tactician feat actually requires you to successfully Bluff or successfully Feint.
Matthew77
08-07-07, 05:30 PM I think your DM has some pretty good justification for his ruling.

Remember, a Bluff means you are misleading your target by predicting what his reactions to a false move will be.

From the SRD, bluff requires:
A bluff requires interaction between you and the target. Creatures unaware of you cannot be bluffed.

Obviously, a helpless target can't be bluffed, because he can't react to you.
Also, a target that can't sense your actions can't be bluffed, because they won't react to your false moves.

IMO, Blinded and Dazzled would be somewhere between normal and "unaware", thus I would assign a penalty to the bluff check.

Most bluffs rely on fooling the sense of sight. It would be quite difficult to fool someone about your combat intentions relying only on false sounds.

I think maybe a -10 or so penalty would be appropriate.

Interestingly, the more skilled a opponent's senses are, the easier he would be to bluff. Someone who used his superhuman hearing to give him blindsense might be easier to fool with a faked swing or an auditory bluff. Like the saying goes.. the world's best swordsman doesn't fear the second best swordsman, he fears the novice that just picked up a blade today. The unpredictability of a dazzled Drow frantically swinging his sword in a blind attempt at defense would foil a sophisticated bluff attempt, because he is not reacting normally to your actions.

Since your character uses bluff in combat frequently, it would be wise to work out some rules with the DM regarding what conditions might affect bluff attempts to avoid conflicts in the future.
Turel
08-07-07, 05:38 PM well, im at work so i cant quote it at the mo.
I thought a bluff check IN combat was called a feint only because he gets his BA added, therefore same thing :S
From memory it grants you a std action on any target that you succeed a bluff check on, must be in melee combat.

Thanks Mathew77, some very good points, and i think it should be a penalty too.
Turel
08-07-07, 05:53 PM If he's blinded then he's already denied his DEX....
...So seeing as the only thing a successful feint does deny his DEX bonus, isn't it a redundant maneuver?

Well i just shot home to check it out, and its not a failed bluff check its a loss of dex, only 1 target per round, must be in melee.
Yes bluffing was pointless, as he had already lost his dex, so i wouldve gotten an extra std act because he was dazed/blinded. ><

still, my DM did get it wrong... shrugs

Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated.
:) :)
Fallenangel359
08-07-07, 11:09 PM you can bluff by stepping on their toes, making sounds, etc etc
On_the_wings_of_TPK
08-08-07, 01:50 AM If he's blinded then he's already denied his DEX.

From the SRD:

So seeing as the only thing a successful feint does deny his DEX bonus, isn't it a redundant maneuver? While your right that a blind target looses its dex due to being able to see you. The Drow in question would have been able to see. Light sensitivity only makes you blinded for the first round of exposure, then you take a minus 1 on pretty much everything. Since daylight is a standard action to cast, the Op would have had to wait untill the round after to attack the drow. Now if the drow went before then in the combat, which it sounds like he did, because he cast darkness first, then he would have recovered before the OP could have attacked.

However thats brings us back to wheather or not the OP could bluff the Drow, and the answer in that case is yes. As the DMs argument about not bluffing blind people is mute as the drow is no lower blinded, just dazzled.
TheScapegoat
08-08-07, 01:59 AM TPK I think you are incorrect because he says the feat allows him the extra standard action if the target is denied its dex. Being blind does this, therefor giving the additional standard action.

Even if blinding did not do that the player could use improved feint as a move action to Bluff the drow and then gain the standard action... if he can in fact bluff a blind drow.
Turel
08-08-07, 05:34 PM yes thats right, basically the DM wanted the guy to last another round so he nerfed my PC for a round, didnt help that i'd forgotten my own feat description ><
Sometimes I wonder about letting the DM get blazed before gaming, however telling him to sit down cos im not blowing him out would certainly not do my PC any favours...
Magnus029
08-08-07, 09:42 PM I disagree:

The DM made a judgement call, maybe he did want to keep them alive but that is besides the point.

The opponent was blinded and dazed, IE can't see and not really able to focus...

I would rulle the same

Not to mention bluffing is a waste of your action anyways
Mock26
08-08-07, 10:01 PM Can you bluff someone that is blinded/dazed

So we are in a dungeon, and come across a elf chick and a drow guy, the elf lady gets felled in 1 round and the drow goes nuts (was his lover - cliche). He threw a darkness down then attacked me, no prob he missed and im not worried about the dark. My actions were as follows. I cast daylight (celestial SP) and attempt a bluff/feint check as my move action. Ive taken a 3.0 feat called Expert Tactician (DM as very OK with it) that gives you a std act against anyone bluffed in combat so i was a bit gutted when he said "he cant be bluffed as hes blinded and dazed from the daylight spell".
I put up petty resistance at the time and quietly looked up bluff in the Phb, nowhere does it imply that bluff or feint is related to the targets status, infact id been running it as "if its got 3 or less int then i assume bluff simply wont work" when a see that infact it WILL work with a -8 penalty.

So whats the call, has he just made this up on the spot because he was gutted his 2 BBEG's were 1 round wonders?? Or is bluff/feint simply not as good as i thought?

I would agree with the DM on not allowing you to bluff someone who was blinded and dazed. The rules sometimes require some common sense in their application. The rules don't state that you can't bluff someone who was blind and deaf, but if you think about it how would you bluff someone like that? They can't see you? That can't hear you? Maybe if both of you knew the same form of sign language or telepathy, but I'm talking about in general (because you can come up with an exception to just about everything).

But, once you were told that he was blinded and dazed you should have jumped on the opportunity like a band of cannibalistic kobolds on a fat hobbit! If he was dazed then he probably wouldn't have been able to defend himself in any way, shape, or form. You should have grabbed some rope and tied him up and gagged him or slit his throat or just about anything. The drow was basically completely defenseless.
Malraux
08-08-07, 10:13 PM Isn't feinting a standard action anyway? And just a straight bluff check is a full round action (or more).
Turel
08-08-07, 10:31 PM im astounded at the fact that you 2 (magnus & malreux) have failed to read the thread.
how can you even begin to answer if you havnt even read the question??

its called Improved Feint = bluff as a move action
its called Expert Tactician = One opponent per round thats denied dex you get an extra std action (how is that a waste!?!??!)
so i bluff the guy and get 2 Hideous blows with my Greatsword = 18d6 +36 + invocations. (potential 36d6 + 72 per round if nat 20's) sure, what a waste. *rolls eyes*

Mock26, totally, but it was right at the end, and we were trying to hurry the combat up so we could introduce a new player (removed inappropriate content-WizO_Chaos)
I had a chuckle with the DM (hes my flatmate) about how the last 20 min went.

For those that care, its the one of the Shackled city modules (adapted for a dungeon crawl) with teh big cracked tree, the Yuan-Ti altar and the teleport egg and the crazy guy with his fiendish dire badger. we are lvl 14 gestalts and its quite a cool campaign. :)
On_the_wings_of_TPK
08-08-07, 10:46 PM Erm how is your greatsword dealing 9d6 points of damage?
Turel
08-08-07, 10:54 PM 2d6 blade + 7d6 eldritch.
normally a once a round option, but my 4 feats Combat ref + expertise + imp feint + 3.0 Expert tactician make it possible to do it twice a round if they been bluffed/denied dex :)

fighter/warlock 10 gestalt + Half celestial +4LA

** sorry, didnt realise certain words or habits would be edited, thanks WizO_Chaos **
Tiarn
08-09-07, 02:12 AM I think everyone here is forgetting a very important fact. I will demonstrate.

Key parts in the description of darkness:

Target: Object touched
This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness....

Now, unless I'm misunderstanding the OP that means that this drow was attacking another character while inside an area of magical darkness.

Key portions of the daylight spell:
Target: Object touched
The object touched sheds light as bright as full daylight in a 60-foot radius, and dim light for an additional 60 feet beyond that. Creatures that take penalties in bright light also take them while within the radius of this magical light. Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by bright light.
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.

Anyone notice yet?

Yep, you got it! Either a) the daylight was simply cast on an object, therefore making the otherwise normal light conditions exist because the spells were overlapping or b) the daylight spell was cast and used to dispel the darkness.
Either way there was no area of daylight to be blinding the drow! Ergo, the drow was not blind or dazed, ergo, you could feint him.
Magnus029
08-09-07, 02:44 PM im astounded at the fact that you 2 (magnus & malreux) have failed to read the thread.
how can you even begin to answer if you havnt even read the question??

Go **** yourself, I did read the thread, just cause I didn't agree with you and jump on your ****ing bandwagon. The question was can you feint someone who is blinded/daze... I answered that.

I really loved the little rant about your assumptions of how bluff worked, really went into the question you were asking... Which of course leads to another question, is it common for you to NOT know how your skills work?
Turel
08-09-07, 04:32 PM Go **** yourself, I did read the thread, just cause I didn't agree with you and jump on your ****ing bandwagon. The question was can you feint someone who is blinded/daze... I answered that.

I really loved the little rant about your assumptions of how bluff worked, really went into the question you were asking... Which of course leads to another question, is it common for you to NOT know how your skills work?

good on ya mate.
**claps***

Tiarn, interesting... we have a drow in our party, being hunted by the drow he left, so we have had several encounters with them, initially they threw darkness around like it was there primary weapon, however having a celestial with Daylight @ will made them change tactics and they stopped using it. Then we encounter this random drow, no idea of our char history so he pops out a darkness (we all chuckled). I think My DM was using the Daylight "counters and dispells" darkness (it works both ways, they were using darkness to counter my daylights). I never bothered to think about it but yea, after i cast daylight it should return to normal light, not extra bright :) i'll bring this up with him tonight, see what his "DM Call" is.
Thanks :)
Tiarn
08-09-07, 11:48 PM ... I think My DM was using the Daylight "counters and dispells" darkness (it works both ways, they were using darkness to counter my daylights). I never bothered to think about it but yea, after i cast daylight it should return to normal light, not extra bright :) i'll bring this up with him tonight, see what his "DM Call" is.
Thanks :)

The highlighted portion isn't really up to your DM. It's up to you when you cast the spell. You either use it normally and they areas overlap, or you use specifically to dispel (since the darkness was already cast you can't counter) the darkness. But, as I said, either way there's no bright light.

Glad I could help. :D
AtmaWeapon
08-11-07, 07:25 PM Either way there was no area of daylight to be blinding the drow! Ergo, the drow was not blind or dazed, ergo, you could feint him.

Ideally, yes. However, at the moment of occurance, that was not the call. The call, which admittedly was a DM error in that the drow was not blinded, was the the drow was blinded. Ergo, since the drow was being operated as if he were blinded and incurring the appropriate penalties, he could not realistically be feinted in combat. There is nothing wrong with the DM's call regarding the denial of feint, the only error was whether the drow was blinded or not.

And, given the circumstances, it is not the DM's responsibility to remind you that the opponent is denied his dex because he's blinded. The OP is abusing the rules enough that he should know and be able to remember that blinded = loss of Dex. If he's going to take feats that have been made obsolete and blatantly overpowered after the rules update, then he needs to remember to use them, not be reminded.
High Octane
08-12-07, 02:20 PM If he was already blinded, why the hell would you even want to try feinting him?

He's already lost his dex bonus to AC.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Turel 08-07-07, 04:49 PM	Can you bluff someone that is blinded/dazed So we are in a dungeon, and come across a elf chick and a drow guy, the elf lady gets felled in 1 round and the drow goes nuts (was his lover - cliche). He threw a darkness down then attacked me, no prob he missed and im not worried about the dark. My actions were as follows. I cast daylight (celestial SP) and attempt a bluff/feint check as my move action. Ive taken a 3.0 feat called Expert Tactician (DM as very OK with it) that gives you a std act against anyone bluffed in combat so i was a bit gutted when he said "he cant be bluffed as hes blinded and dazed from the daylight spell". I put up petty resistance at the time and quietly looked up bluff in the Phb, nowhere does it imply that bluff or feint is related to the targets status, infact id been running it as "if its got 3 or less int then i assume bluff simply wont work" when a see that infact it WILL work with a -8 penalty. So whats the call, has he just made this up on the spot because he was gutted his 2 BBEG's were 1 round wonders?? Or is bluff/feint simply not as good as i thought?
stargate525 08-07-07, 04:54 PM	Sure you can feint him. It seems obvious it would be easier since he can barely see.
RainerNader 08-07-07, 05:00 PM	If he's blinded then he's already denied his DEX. From the SRD: Blinded The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them. So seeing as the only thing a successful feint does deny his DEX bonus, isn't it a redundant maneuver?
Turel 08-07-07, 05:05 PM	Thats what i said! He said "how can you bluff him", I said "well ill tap him on the foot and whack him in the head, or ill tell him im actually ..." and quoted the +20 dc from the bluff section in the PHB he said nope, hes not going to be bluffed. just so you know, lvl 14 char with a 35 + D20 bluff check. nope, the 3.0 feat relies on the target failing his bluff check, not his loss of dex
Vicerious 08-07-07, 05:28 PM	So the feat requires your opponent to fail a Bluff check? It should be noted that this is different from attempting to feint: A feint is a Bluff check opposed by the victim's Sense Motive check + Base Attack Bonus. So the real matter here is whether this Expert Tactician feat actually requires you to successfully Bluff or successfully Feint.
Matthew77 08-07-07, 05:30 PM	I think your DM has some pretty good justification for his ruling. Remember, a Bluff means you are misleading your target by predicting what his reactions to a false move will be. From the SRD, bluff requires: A bluff requires interaction between you and the target. Creatures unaware of you cannot be bluffed. Obviously, a helpless target can't be bluffed, because he can't react to you. Also, a target that can't sense your actions can't be bluffed, because they won't react to your false moves. IMO, Blinded and Dazzled would be somewhere between normal and "unaware", thus I would assign a penalty to the bluff check. Most bluffs rely on fooling the sense of sight. It would be quite difficult to fool someone about your combat intentions relying only on false sounds. I think maybe a -10 or so penalty would be appropriate. Interestingly, the more skilled a opponent's senses are, the easier he would be to bluff. Someone who used his superhuman hearing to give him blindsense might be easier to fool with a faked swing or an auditory bluff. Like the saying goes.. the world's best swordsman doesn't fear the second best swordsman, he fears the novice that just picked up a blade today. The unpredictability of a dazzled Drow frantically swinging his sword in a blind attempt at defense would foil a sophisticated bluff attempt, because he is not reacting normally to your actions. Since your character uses bluff in combat frequently, it would be wise to work out some rules with the DM regarding what conditions might affect bluff attempts to avoid conflicts in the future.
Turel 08-07-07, 05:38 PM	well, im at work so i cant quote it at the mo. I thought a bluff check IN combat was called a feint only because he gets his BA added, therefore same thing :S From memory it grants you a std action on any target that you succeed a bluff check on, must be in melee combat. Thanks Mathew77, some very good points, and i think it should be a penalty too.
Turel 08-07-07, 05:53 PM	If he's blinded then he's already denied his DEX.... ...So seeing as the only thing a successful feint does deny his DEX bonus, isn't it a redundant maneuver? Well i just shot home to check it out, and its not a failed bluff check its a loss of dex, only 1 target per round, must be in melee. Yes bluffing was pointless, as he had already lost his dex, so i wouldve gotten an extra std act because he was dazed/blinded. >< still, my DM did get it wrong... shrugs Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated. :) :)
Fallenangel359 08-07-07, 11:09 PM	you can bluff by stepping on their toes, making sounds, etc etc
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-08-07, 01:50 AM	If he's blinded then he's already denied his DEX. From the SRD: So seeing as the only thing a successful feint does deny his DEX bonus, isn't it a redundant maneuver? While your right that a blind target looses its dex due to being able to see you. The Drow in question would have been able to see. Light sensitivity only makes you blinded for the first round of exposure, then you take a minus 1 on pretty much everything. Since daylight is a standard action to cast, the Op would have had to wait untill the round after to attack the drow. Now if the drow went before then in the combat, which it sounds like he did, because he cast darkness first, then he would have recovered before the OP could have attacked. However thats brings us back to wheather or not the OP could bluff the Drow, and the answer in that case is yes. As the DMs argument about not bluffing blind people is mute as the drow is no lower blinded, just dazzled.
TheScapegoat 08-08-07, 01:59 AM	TPK I think you are incorrect because he says the feat allows him the extra standard action if the target is denied its dex. Being blind does this, therefor giving the additional standard action. Even if blinding did not do that the player could use improved feint as a move action to Bluff the drow and then gain the standard action... if he can in fact bluff a blind drow.
Turel 08-08-07, 05:34 PM	yes thats right, basically the DM wanted the guy to last another round so he nerfed my PC for a round, didnt help that i'd forgotten my own feat description >< Sometimes I wonder about letting the DM get blazed before gaming, however telling him to sit down cos im not blowing him out would certainly not do my PC any favours...
Magnus029 08-08-07, 09:42 PM	I disagree: The DM made a judgement call, maybe he did want to keep them alive but that is besides the point. The opponent was blinded and dazed, IE can't see and not really able to focus... I would rulle the same Not to mention bluffing is a waste of your action anyways
Mock26 08-08-07, 10:01 PM	Can you bluff someone that is blinded/dazed So we are in a dungeon, and come across a elf chick and a drow guy, the elf lady gets felled in 1 round and the drow goes nuts (was his lover - cliche). He threw a darkness down then attacked me, no prob he missed and im not worried about the dark. My actions were as follows. I cast daylight (celestial SP) and attempt a bluff/feint check as my move action. Ive taken a 3.0 feat called Expert Tactician (DM as very OK with it) that gives you a std act against anyone bluffed in combat so i was a bit gutted when he said "he cant be bluffed as hes blinded and dazed from the daylight spell". I put up petty resistance at the time and quietly looked up bluff in the Phb, nowhere does it imply that bluff or feint is related to the targets status, infact id been running it as "if its got 3 or less int then i assume bluff simply wont work" when a see that infact it WILL work with a -8 penalty. So whats the call, has he just made this up on the spot because he was gutted his 2 BBEG's were 1 round wonders?? Or is bluff/feint simply not as good as i thought? I would agree with the DM on not allowing you to bluff someone who was blinded and dazed. The rules sometimes require some common sense in their application. The rules don't state that you can't bluff someone who was blind and deaf, but if you think about it how would you bluff someone like that? They can't see you? That can't hear you? Maybe if both of you knew the same form of sign language or telepathy, but I'm talking about in general (because you can come up with an exception to just about everything). But, once you were told that he was blinded and dazed you should have jumped on the opportunity like a band of cannibalistic kobolds on a fat hobbit! If he was dazed then he probably wouldn't have been able to defend himself in any way, shape, or form. You should have grabbed some rope and tied him up and gagged him or slit his throat or just about anything. The drow was basically completely defenseless.
Malraux 08-08-07, 10:13 PM	Isn't feinting a standard action anyway? And just a straight bluff check is a full round action (or more).
Turel 08-08-07, 10:31 PM	im astounded at the fact that you 2 (magnus & malreux) have failed to read the thread. how can you even begin to answer if you havnt even read the question?? its called Improved Feint = bluff as a move action its called Expert Tactician = One opponent per round thats denied dex you get an extra std action (how is that a waste!?!??!) so i bluff the guy and get 2 Hideous blows with my Greatsword = 18d6 +36 + invocations. (potential 36d6 + 72 per round if nat 20's) sure, what a waste. rolls eyes Mock26, totally, but it was right at the end, and we were trying to hurry the combat up so we could introduce a new player (removed inappropriate content-WizO_Chaos) I had a chuckle with the DM (hes my flatmate) about how the last 20 min went. For those that care, its the one of the Shackled city modules (adapted for a dungeon crawl) with teh big cracked tree, the Yuan-Ti altar and the teleport egg and the crazy guy with his fiendish dire badger. we are lvl 14 gestalts and its quite a cool campaign. :)
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-08-07, 10:46 PM	Erm how is your greatsword dealing 9d6 points of damage?
Turel 08-08-07, 10:54 PM	2d6 blade + 7d6 eldritch. normally a once a round option, but my 4 feats Combat ref + expertise + imp feint + 3.0 Expert tactician make it possible to do it twice a round if they been bluffed/denied dex :) fighter/warlock 10 gestalt + Half celestial +4LA sorry, didnt realise certain words or habits would be edited, thanks WizO_Chaos
Tiarn 08-09-07, 02:12 AM	I think everyone here is forgetting a very important fact. I will demonstrate. Key parts in the description of darkness: Target: Object touched This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.... Now, unless I'm misunderstanding the OP that means that this drow was attacking another character while inside an area of magical darkness. Key portions of the daylight spell: Target: Object touched The object touched sheds light as bright as full daylight in a 60-foot radius, and dim light for an additional 60 feet beyond that. Creatures that take penalties in bright light also take them while within the radius of this magical light. Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by bright light. Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect. Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness. Anyone notice yet? Yep, you got it! Either a) the daylight was simply cast on an object, therefore making the otherwise normal light conditions exist because the spells were overlapping or b) the daylight spell was cast and used to dispel the darkness. Either way there was no area of daylight to be blinding the drow! Ergo, the drow was not blind or dazed, ergo, you could feint him.
Magnus029 08-09-07, 02:44 PM	im astounded at the fact that you 2 (magnus & malreux) have failed to read the thread. how can you even begin to answer if you havnt even read the question?? Go ** yourself, I did read the thread, just cause I didn't agree with you and jump on your **ing bandwagon. The question was can you feint someone who is blinded/daze... I answered that. I really loved the little rant about your assumptions of how bluff worked, really went into the question you were asking... Which of course leads to another question, is it common for you to NOT know how your skills work?
Turel 08-09-07, 04:32 PM	Go ** yourself, I did read the thread, just cause I didn't agree with you and jump on your ing bandwagon. The question was can you feint someone who is blinded/daze... I answered that. I really loved the little rant about your assumptions of how bluff worked, really went into the question you were asking... Which of course leads to another question, is it common for you to NOT know how your skills work? good on ya mate. claps*** Tiarn, interesting... we have a drow in our party, being hunted by the drow he left, so we have had several encounters with them, initially they threw darkness around like it was there primary weapon, however having a celestial with Daylight @ will made them change tactics and they stopped using it. Then we encounter this random drow, no idea of our char history so he pops out a darkness (we all chuckled). I think My DM was using the Daylight "counters and dispells" darkness (it works both ways, they were using darkness to counter my daylights). I never bothered to think about it but yea, after i cast daylight it should return to normal light, not extra bright :) i'll bring this up with him tonight, see what his "DM Call" is. Thanks :)
Tiarn 08-09-07, 11:48 PM	... I think My DM was using the Daylight "counters and dispells" darkness (it works both ways, they were using darkness to counter my daylights). I never bothered to think about it but yea, after i cast daylight it should return to normal light, not extra bright :) i'll bring this up with him tonight, see what his "DM Call" is. Thanks :) The highlighted portion isn't really up to your DM. It's up to you when you cast the spell. You either use it normally and they areas overlap, or you use specifically to dispel (since the darkness was already cast you can't counter) the darkness. But, as I said, either way there's no bright light. Glad I could help. :D
AtmaWeapon 08-11-07, 07:25 PM	Either way there was no area of daylight to be blinding the drow! Ergo, the drow was not blind or dazed, ergo, you could feint him. Ideally, yes. However, at the moment of occurance, that was not the call. The call, which admittedly was a DM error in that the drow was not blinded, was the the drow was blinded. Ergo, since the drow was being operated as if he were blinded and incurring the appropriate penalties, he could not realistically be feinted in combat. There is nothing wrong with the DM's call regarding the denial of feint, the only error was whether the drow was blinded or not. And, given the circumstances, it is not the DM's responsibility to remind you that the opponent is denied his dex because he's blinded. The OP is abusing the rules enough that he should know and be able to remember that blinded = loss of Dex. If he's going to take feats that have been made obsolete and blatantly overpowered after the rules update, then he needs to remember to use them, not be reminded.
High Octane 08-12-07, 02:20 PM	If he was already blinded, why the hell would you even want to try feinting him? He's already lost his dex bonus to AC.