Boosting illusion DCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Boosting illusion DCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Khisanth Magus
11-13-06, 02:19 AM While I realize I might get more responses out of the CO board, I really don't want my character broken, just good.

Basically I'm looking for any feats or magical items that will boost my spell DCs for illusion spells. The character is an illusionist, has spell focus(illusion) and greater spell focus(illusion). What other ways can I boost my Illusion DCs to where they will be very hard to resist? Focusing almost completely on illusions doesn't do any good if people can actually just disbelieve them.
TheChilliGod
11-13-06, 02:35 AM Improving your character's casting stat would be the next best thing to the Spell Focus feats. Items like Headband of Intelligence/Cloak of Charisma do a lot for this.

After that, consider Heighten Spell. It raises the effective spell level of the illusion, which also raises the DC for the spell. Some might consider it a waste of spell levels, since you can simply use a better illusion spell instead of Heightening one of a lower level and get better results. But if you still like that Phantasmal Killer after 11th lvl...

I'm sure that there are other ways in non-core sources; these are just from the SRD! :D
balcam101
11-13-06, 02:43 AM i had one of those characters. Illusions rock. SPell penetration and greater spell pentration may help ya a little with some of your illusions. Now as long as Necromancy isn't your prohibited school Try bestow curse so that the recipient will get -4 vs saves. Your Dm may also let you create your own curse, for example -4 on saves vs illusions. Now with this curse you just gotta use another spell to deliver a touch attack for ya, or touch the target by hand, or use your familiar. well anyway depending which edition your using you can reverse it without having to memorise 2 different spells.
TwistedPuppy
11-13-06, 09:21 AM Spells that will reduce Will saves are your friends here. Touch of Idiocy and Spectral Hand are a nice combo for that, and ToI doesn't allow a save. Enervation and Mind Fog are good if you can cast them. Bestow Curse can help, but like Mind Fog it does allow a Will save. (At least I think it's a Will save, no books here.) Also, that's assuming those spells aren't in proscribed schools. If they are, your rogue buddy with wands for those and a high Use Magic Device is good to have around.

If you don't have a INT-boosting item that's +4 or better, Fox's Cunning can help. There might be an Ioun stone that can help you out.

I agree with TheChilliGod: Depending on what spells you have available, the Heighten Spell feat might be handy to boost the DC of a spell that absolutely, positively has to work.
Far_Traveler
11-13-06, 09:45 AM Make sure your a Gnome, for one.

Second, I suggest getting the Alternate class feature Chains of Disbelief. Even if someone in a group saves, other people still have to save, albiet with a bonus.
BW0222
11-13-06, 10:09 AM Khisanth Magus,

As alternatives...

Reduce their will saves
Curses, mind fog, wisdom draining, etc.

Don't let them save
Many illusions need to be interacted with before one gets a saving throw. Do things to discourage folks from interacting with an illusion.

Conjure a real celestial hypogriffs. Then make several illusionary ones. Put up a wall of fire and then put your illusionary fire elemental behind the wall. Hit them with a stinking cloud, then make an illusion of another one near the exit.

If they honestly have no reason to attack, tough, or enter it, then they don't get a save.

Pick Spells without Saves
Displacement on your fighters, invisibility on the rogue, disquise self so you look like the fighter, etc.
Tempest Stormwind
11-13-06, 12:41 PM While I realize I might get more responses out of the CO board, I really don't want my character broken, just good.I object to the implication that the CO boards can't make non-broken stuff.Basically I'm looking for any feats or magical items that will boost my spell DCs for illusion spells. The character is an illusionist, has spell focus(illusion) and greater spell focus(illusion). What other ways can I boost my Illusion DCs to where they will be very hard to resist? Focusing almost completely on illusions doesn't do any good if people can actually just disbelieve them.
1) Play a gnome. In addition to the +1 DC, the BEST EVAR PrC for illusionists is gnome-only. (And the Gnome Illusionist sub level in Races of Stone lets you cast Silent Image as a cantrip, which is awesome enough if it didn't also reduce several other illusion spells' levels.)

2) Speaking of, look at the Shadowcraft Mage (Races of Stone). It doesn't *matter* if you focus just on illusions with that -- in fact, Shadowcraft Mage + Heighten Spell + Signature Spell (Silent Image) = spend a full round action, spontaneously cast *any* Evocation, Conjuration (Creation) or Conjuration (Summoning) spell, using your illusion DCs, even if you don't have it prepared or even know it. Oh, and without its regular components or casting time. At high levels, this can include spontaneously casting Trap the Soul for free, for instance. Do note that to emulate 9th level spells, you will need the Earth Spell feat (also in the same book).

3) The Shadow Weave Magic feat (Player's Guide to Faerun) is one of the few in the game that actually grants +1 DC anymore -- and it grants it to illusion, enchantment, and necromancy spells. It's not always going to be your best bet, though, since you take a caster level penalty on evocation (bypassed by SCM, actually) and transmutation, and the inability to use Light spells (except by emulation, see also the SCM).

Do note that if you take the SCM to its logical extreme, it actually becomes beneficial for people to *make* their Will saves to disbelieve -- you can make shadows that are more than 100% real with a bit of effort. This, however, might be going overboard for you.

Still, the Shadowcraft Mage alone can give you +20% on all of them.

That's just *build* advice. If you want tactical advice, start with BW0222's. There's more than just that, but the big one there ("don't let them save") is enough to get you pretty far.
Toloran
11-13-06, 12:46 PM If you take some levels in the Master Specialist PRC (Complete Mage) you can boost the will disbelief DC of your spells by 2 (The class has some other nice benefits too for illusionists).
CaoSlayer
11-13-06, 01:09 PM the best way to lower a save it is enervation, have no save and each negative level means -1 to saves.. also makes them easier to kill.
Trondant
11-13-06, 01:28 PM an other, though slightly sub-optimal choice would be playing a pixy. they have a hefty 4LA (if IIRC), but have a nice +6 int, interesting spell like abilities, including permanent image, several tactical abilities that synergise nicely with illusions, and best of all
they are permanently invisible and can fly with 60 ft.

imagine the chaos that would ensue after several illusions pop up from nowhere (especially if you have silent spell ;) )

allthough the caster level loss is a pain, it is great for pranksters/battlefield controll characters etc.

found in MM, page 236
Toloran
11-13-06, 02:09 PM an other, though slightly sub-optimal choice would be playing a pixy. they have a hefty 4LA (if IIRC), but have a nice +6 int, interesting spell like abilities, including permanent image, several tactical abilities that synergise nicely with illusions, and best of all
they are permanently invisible and can fly with 60 ft.

imagine the chaos that would ensue after several illusions pop up from nowhere (especially if you have silent spell ;) )

allthough the caster level loss is a pain, it is great for pranksters/battlefield controll characters etc.

found in MM, page 236

You forgot the 1 fey racial HD. So you are basically 5 levels lower not just 4 =\

That said, being a pixie is totally worth it.
CaoSlayer
11-13-06, 03:30 PM You forgot the 1 fey racial HD. So you are basically 5 levels lower not just 4 =\

That said, being a pixie is totally worth it.

No.

Pixies As Characters

A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level.

Pixie characters possess the following racial traits.

* -4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma.
* Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ľ those of Medium characters.
* A pixie’s base land speed is 20 feet. It also has a fly speed of 60 feet (good).
* Low-light vision.
* Skills: Pixies have a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
* Racial Feats: A pixie receives Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats.
* +1 natural armor bonus.
* Special Attacks (see above): Spell-like abilities.
* Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/cold iron, greater invisibility, spell resistance equal to 15 + class levels.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Halfling.
* Favored Class: Sorcerer.
* Level adjustment +4 (+6 if the pixie can use irresistible dance).
CriminalTruth
11-13-06, 05:12 PM take the fate spinner prc.

i did this in a high level game...where my char had to face the rest of the char's... bad move by the DM.. he pretty much had to metagame from keeping me from killing the party...

fight went like this ( no mages in the party )

( im flying previous to fight )

Rd one
Quicked ray of enervation split ray of enervation ( on on char )

gave him 11 negative levels

Rd two. Split ray finger of death ( hit the char i just hit and made him take a -5 to his saving throw the other char i made him take a -10 to his dice roll ) Dc's were 37 an 42 respectivly ( spell focus necromancy greater spell focus necromancy 34 Int 5 spin used on the first one -10 on roll for the second effective DC listed )

the fighter died as did the rogue.

Rd. 3. the paladin / cavalier with his radiant dragon approaches.

I cast blackfire on the cr 6 dragon.

Dm then stuns me. they get the black fire out ( after calling for tensors aid on the next round ( yea bad ass huh? ) )

Then the paladin tries to take off my head..

Unfortunatly for him...

Contingancy--- Helpless about to take damage - Teleport

Opps..

all in all it was a pretty fun night...... they begged my cleric they pushed out of the party to come back.....

and hes WAY more broke then this char...( the rogue and the cleric had some problems... )

but yea.. i recommend the fatespinner to get ur DC's insain.
DarknessEternal
11-13-06, 06:35 PM the best way to lower a save it is enervation, have no save and each negative level means -1 to saves.. also makes them easier to kill.
Phantasmal Assailants is entirely more efficient. 8 Dex and Wis damage, save for half. This is only a 2nd level spell.

Hell, why bother with the illusion though. 2 or 3 Phantasmal Assailants will leave just about anything drooling on it self unconcious.
Archangel62
11-13-06, 06:44 PM Take Master Specialist, then Nightmare WEaver
ravenshrike
11-13-06, 07:18 PM While I realize I might get more responses out of the CO board, I really don't want my character broken, just good.

Basically I'm looking for any feats or magical items that will boost my spell DCs for illusion spells. The character is an illusionist, has spell focus(illusion) and greater spell focus(illusion). What other ways can I boost my Illusion DCs to where they will be very hard to resist? Focusing almost completely on illusions doesn't do any good if people can actually just disbelieve them.
NM
The Simbul
11-15-06, 07:17 PM If you want to have the highest save DC for illusion spells, then play a Forest Gnome in the Forgotten Realms

Gnome racial traits +1 DC
Spell Focus feat +1 DC
Greater Spell Focus feat +1 DC
Shadow Weave Magic featPG +1 DC
Forest Gnome Phantasmist featRoF +1 DC to pattern and phantasm spells
Misleading Song featRoS use bardic music to boost illusion DC
pinch of Pixie DustMag (special material, 1 per casting) +1 DC

PG= Players Guide to Faerun
Mag= Magic of Faerun
RoF= Races of Faerun
RoS- Races of Stone
Thubby
11-15-06, 10:13 PM use illusions that are believable, and dangerous (if it were real). an illusion wall wont put too much of a damper on a chasing party.
a celestial dire bear will.
shadow spells (with like 3 prcs built around them) cast any spell you like!!!
PHGraves
11-16-06, 02:57 PM Vow of Noviolence is also good. Sure, you cannot do Ability damage or lethal damage to humanoids/monstrous humanoids, but the save DCs across the board go up by +4.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khisanth Magus 11-13-06, 02:19 AM	While I realize I might get more responses out of the CO board, I really don't want my character broken, just good. Basically I'm looking for any feats or magical items that will boost my spell DCs for illusion spells. The character is an illusionist, has spell focus(illusion) and greater spell focus(illusion). What other ways can I boost my Illusion DCs to where they will be very hard to resist? Focusing almost completely on illusions doesn't do any good if people can actually just disbelieve them.
TheChilliGod 11-13-06, 02:35 AM	Improving your character's casting stat would be the next best thing to the Spell Focus feats. Items like Headband of Intelligence/Cloak of Charisma do a lot for this. After that, consider Heighten Spell. It raises the effective spell level of the illusion, which also raises the DC for the spell. Some might consider it a waste of spell levels, since you can simply use a better illusion spell instead of Heightening one of a lower level and get better results. But if you still like that Phantasmal Killer after 11th lvl... I'm sure that there are other ways in non-core sources; these are just from the SRD! :D
balcam101 11-13-06, 02:43 AM	i had one of those characters. Illusions rock. SPell penetration and greater spell pentration may help ya a little with some of your illusions. Now as long as Necromancy isn't your prohibited school Try bestow curse so that the recipient will get -4 vs saves. Your Dm may also let you create your own curse, for example -4 on saves vs illusions. Now with this curse you just gotta use another spell to deliver a touch attack for ya, or touch the target by hand, or use your familiar. well anyway depending which edition your using you can reverse it without having to memorise 2 different spells.
TwistedPuppy 11-13-06, 09:21 AM	Spells that will reduce Will saves are your friends here. Touch of Idiocy and Spectral Hand are a nice combo for that, and ToI doesn't allow a save. Enervation and Mind Fog are good if you can cast them. Bestow Curse can help, but like Mind Fog it does allow a Will save. (At least I think it's a Will save, no books here.) Also, that's assuming those spells aren't in proscribed schools. If they are, your rogue buddy with wands for those and a high Use Magic Device is good to have around. If you don't have a INT-boosting item that's +4 or better, Fox's Cunning can help. There might be an Ioun stone that can help you out. I agree with TheChilliGod: Depending on what spells you have available, the Heighten Spell feat might be handy to boost the DC of a spell that absolutely, positively has to work.
Far_Traveler 11-13-06, 09:45 AM	Make sure your a Gnome, for one. Second, I suggest getting the Alternate class feature Chains of Disbelief. Even if someone in a group saves, other people still have to save, albiet with a bonus.
BW0222 11-13-06, 10:09 AM	Khisanth Magus, As alternatives... Reduce their will saves Curses, mind fog, wisdom draining, etc. Don't let them save Many illusions need to be interacted with before one gets a saving throw. Do things to discourage folks from interacting with an illusion. Conjure a real celestial hypogriffs. Then make several illusionary ones. Put up a wall of fire and then put your illusionary fire elemental behind the wall. Hit them with a stinking cloud, then make an illusion of another one near the exit. If they honestly have no reason to attack, tough, or enter it, then they don't get a save. Pick Spells without Saves Displacement on your fighters, invisibility on the rogue, disquise self so you look like the fighter, etc.
Tempest Stormwind 11-13-06, 12:41 PM	While I realize I might get more responses out of the CO board, I really don't want my character broken, just good.I object to the implication that the CO boards can't make non-broken stuff.Basically I'm looking for any feats or magical items that will boost my spell DCs for illusion spells. The character is an illusionist, has spell focus(illusion) and greater spell focus(illusion). What other ways can I boost my Illusion DCs to where they will be very hard to resist? Focusing almost completely on illusions doesn't do any good if people can actually just disbelieve them. 1) Play a gnome. In addition to the +1 DC, the BEST EVAR PrC for illusionists is gnome-only. (And the Gnome Illusionist sub level in Races of Stone lets you cast Silent Image as a cantrip, which is awesome enough if it didn't also reduce several other illusion spells' levels.) 2) Speaking of, look at the Shadowcraft Mage (Races of Stone). It doesn't matter if you focus just on illusions with that -- in fact, Shadowcraft Mage + Heighten Spell + Signature Spell (Silent Image) = spend a full round action, spontaneously cast any Evocation, Conjuration (Creation) or Conjuration (Summoning) spell, using your illusion DCs, even if you don't have it prepared or even know it. Oh, and without its regular components or casting time. At high levels, this can include spontaneously casting Trap the Soul for free, for instance. Do note that to emulate 9th level spells, you will need the Earth Spell feat (also in the same book). 3) The Shadow Weave Magic feat (Player's Guide to Faerun) is one of the few in the game that actually grants +1 DC anymore -- and it grants it to illusion, enchantment, and necromancy spells. It's not always going to be your best bet, though, since you take a caster level penalty on evocation (bypassed by SCM, actually) and transmutation, and the inability to use Light spells (except by emulation, see also the SCM). Do note that if you take the SCM to its logical extreme, it actually becomes beneficial for people to make their Will saves to disbelieve -- you can make shadows that are more than 100% real with a bit of effort. This, however, might be going overboard for you. Still, the Shadowcraft Mage alone can give you +20% on all of them. That's just build advice. If you want tactical advice, start with BW0222's. There's more than just that, but the big one there ("don't let them save") is enough to get you pretty far.
Toloran 11-13-06, 12:46 PM	If you take some levels in the Master Specialist PRC (Complete Mage) you can boost the will disbelief DC of your spells by 2 (The class has some other nice benefits too for illusionists).
CaoSlayer 11-13-06, 01:09 PM	the best way to lower a save it is enervation, have no save and each negative level means -1 to saves.. also makes them easier to kill.
Trondant 11-13-06, 01:28 PM	an other, though slightly sub-optimal choice would be playing a pixy. they have a hefty 4LA (if IIRC), but have a nice +6 int, interesting spell like abilities, including permanent image, several tactical abilities that synergise nicely with illusions, and best of all they are permanently invisible and can fly with 60 ft. imagine the chaos that would ensue after several illusions pop up from nowhere (especially if you have silent spell ;) ) allthough the caster level loss is a pain, it is great for pranksters/battlefield controll characters etc. found in MM, page 236
Toloran 11-13-06, 02:09 PM	an other, though slightly sub-optimal choice would be playing a pixy. they have a hefty 4LA (if IIRC), but have a nice +6 int, interesting spell like abilities, including permanent image, several tactical abilities that synergise nicely with illusions, and best of all they are permanently invisible and can fly with 60 ft. imagine the chaos that would ensue after several illusions pop up from nowhere (especially if you have silent spell ;) ) allthough the caster level loss is a pain, it is great for pranksters/battlefield controll characters etc. found in MM, page 236 You forgot the 1 fey racial HD. So you are basically 5 levels lower not just 4 =\ That said, being a pixie is totally worth it.
CaoSlayer 11-13-06, 03:30 PM	You forgot the 1 fey racial HD. So you are basically 5 levels lower not just 4 =\ That said, being a pixie is totally worth it. No. Pixies As Characters A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level. Pixie characters possess the following racial traits. * -4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma. * Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ľ those of Medium characters. * A pixie’s base land speed is 20 feet. It also has a fly speed of 60 feet (good). * Low-light vision. * Skills: Pixies have a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. * Racial Feats: A pixie receives Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats. * +1 natural armor bonus. * Special Attacks (see above): Spell-like abilities. * Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/cold iron, greater invisibility, spell resistance equal to 15 + class levels. * Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Halfling. * Favored Class: Sorcerer. * Level adjustment +4 (+6 if the pixie can use irresistible dance).
CriminalTruth 11-13-06, 05:12 PM	take the fate spinner prc. i did this in a high level game...where my char had to face the rest of the char's... bad move by the DM.. he pretty much had to metagame from keeping me from killing the party... fight went like this ( no mages in the party ) ( im flying previous to fight ) Rd one Quicked ray of enervation split ray of enervation ( on on char ) gave him 11 negative levels Rd two. Split ray finger of death ( hit the char i just hit and made him take a -5 to his saving throw the other char i made him take a -10 to his dice roll ) Dc's were 37 an 42 respectivly ( spell focus necromancy greater spell focus necromancy 34 Int 5 spin used on the first one -10 on roll for the second effective DC listed ) the fighter died as did the rogue. Rd. 3. the paladin / cavalier with his radiant dragon approaches. I cast blackfire on the cr 6 dragon. Dm then stuns me. they get the black fire out ( after calling for tensors aid on the next round ( yea bad ass huh? ) ) Then the paladin tries to take off my head.. Unfortunatly for him... Contingancy--- Helpless about to take damage - Teleport Opps.. all in all it was a pretty fun night...... they begged my cleric they pushed out of the party to come back..... and hes WAY more broke then this char...( the rogue and the cleric had some problems... ) but yea.. i recommend the fatespinner to get ur DC's insain.
DarknessEternal 11-13-06, 06:35 PM	the best way to lower a save it is enervation, have no save and each negative level means -1 to saves.. also makes them easier to kill. Phantasmal Assailants is entirely more efficient. 8 Dex and Wis damage, save for half. This is only a 2nd level spell. Hell, why bother with the illusion though. 2 or 3 Phantasmal Assailants will leave just about anything drooling on it self unconcious.
Archangel62 11-13-06, 06:44 PM	Take Master Specialist, then Nightmare WEaver
ravenshrike 11-13-06, 07:18 PM	While I realize I might get more responses out of the CO board, I really don't want my character broken, just good. Basically I'm looking for any feats or magical items that will boost my spell DCs for illusion spells. The character is an illusionist, has spell focus(illusion) and greater spell focus(illusion). What other ways can I boost my Illusion DCs to where they will be very hard to resist? Focusing almost completely on illusions doesn't do any good if people can actually just disbelieve them. NM
The Simbul 11-15-06, 07:17 PM	If you want to have the highest save DC for illusion spells, then play a Forest Gnome in the Forgotten Realms Gnome racial traits +1 DC Spell Focus feat +1 DC Greater Spell Focus feat +1 DC Shadow Weave Magic featPG +1 DC Forest Gnome Phantasmist featRoF +1 DC to pattern and phantasm spells Misleading Song featRoS use bardic music to boost illusion DC pinch of Pixie DustMag (special material, 1 per casting) +1 DC PG= Players Guide to Faerun Mag= Magic of Faerun RoF= Races of Faerun RoS- Races of Stone
Thubby 11-15-06, 10:13 PM	use illusions that are believable, and dangerous (if it were real). an illusion wall wont put too much of a damper on a chasing party. a celestial dire bear will. shadow spells (with like 3 prcs built around them) cast any spell you like!!!
PHGraves 11-16-06, 02:57 PM	Vow of Noviolence is also good. Sure, you cannot do Ability damage or lethal damage to humanoids/monstrous humanoids, but the save DCs across the board go up by +4.