Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sulaco 08-30-06, 10:25 AM	Anyone know of a book that has a Brawler class or somethign similar? I want something along the lines of a monk - an expert in had-to-hand largely weapons-free combat - but without all the seeking enlightenment and finding oneness stuff. Cheers.
Kuruk 08-30-06, 10:47 AM	Complete Warrior has the Reaping Mauler PrC. Once you get someone pinned, you get access to Sleeper Lock and Devastating Grapple, though the Fort Saves on those two abilities will be low, and they won't be very effective at higher levels. The Reaping Mauler does not allow you to continue progression as a monk once you have taken the class. The description makes them out to be rowdy and without all the restrictions a monk may face. Of course you could start as a monk, and then when you take the Reaping Mauler you are basically turning away from all that "perfection of one's body" stuff, and going into a more brutal fighting style. Or you could start as a Fighter, you need to take Imp. Unarmed Strike and Clever Wrestling (feat from CW), and you could also take Imp. Trip, Imp. Disarm. Maybe a build like Fighter 4/Barbarian 1/Reaping Mauler 5? Unless you are looking for a starting class that is oriented towards Unarmed combat, in which case you can ignore this post.
babysamurai 08-30-06, 10:55 AM	Anyone know of a book that has a Brawler class or somethign similar? I want something along the lines of a monk - an expert in had-to-hand largely weapons-free combat - but without all the seeking enlightenment and finding oneness stuff. Cheers. WotC, or 3rd party?
Sulaco 08-30-06, 11:21 AM	WotC, or 3rd party? Doesn't matter. We were thiking of tweaking the monk but I would prefer a purpose-built Brawler class created from the ground-up for that purpose rather than a rebuilt monk if at all possible.
babysamurai 08-30-06, 11:27 AM	Doesn't matter. We were thiking of tweaking the monk but I would prefer a purpose-built Brawler class created from the ground-up for that purpose rather than a rebuilt monk if at all possible. I believe there is a home-brewed “Brawler” class on these very boards. Unfortunately I can’t provide you with a link, but I’m sure someone else can.
trapspringer 08-30-06, 11:44 AM	Just run a fighter. They're friggin' hoss in a grapple, and ToB has a feat to up your unarmed strike damage. A level four human can pull off +14 on grapple dealing 1d6+4 damage wiht unarmed strike and still have a feat left over. If you take a couple of flaws, you can start picking up some of those cool unarmed bonus attacks at level four like snap kick and flying kick, pick up two weapon fighting, or start in on a major feat tree like combat expertise or power attack. It's my favortie kind of fighter, personally. I really like to run this with sneak attack damage instead of bonus feats, but that's a little trickier and you need those two flaws. Combat throw is also pretty critical.
Sulaco 08-30-06, 12:08 PM	Just run a fighter. They're friggin' hoss in a grapple, and ToB has a feat to up your unarmed strike damage. No thanks. If I wanted to take a fighter I'd take a fighter. What I want is essentially a monk - a dedicated had-to-hand largely weapons-free combatant - but without the spiritual aspects.
LCD2YOU 08-30-06, 02:15 PM	May I suggest Rule 0. Use the Monk Core class but get rid of the "wholeness stuff". Give them the next higher HD (d8 or d10 I forget) and feats instead of the holistic stuff. You may wish to make their saves the same as a fighter, instead of the Monk.
Yak of Darkness 08-30-06, 02:28 PM	No thanks. If I wanted to take a fighter I'd take a fighter. What I want is essentially a monk - a dedicated had-to-hand largely weapons-free combatant - but without the spiritual aspects.A D&D "monk," though, pretty much is all those spiritual aspects. Unarmed fighting's a part of it, but there's a lot more. Really, a fighter could work fine, especially when combined with PrC's like the aforementioned Reaping Mauler, as well as porting in the unarmed combat feats from d20 Modern (and letting them be taken as fighter bonus feats). There are enough feats there to fill up more than a few fighter levels (along with the already there things like Weapon Focus or Specialization . . . and while you're at it, if you let Improved Crit stack with the Modern feats' enhancements, you can be a very viable damage dealer). Extra feats can be added (with "BAB +X" or "Fighter level X" requirements) to further increase the damage done by the unarmed strike. Not sure where you place Ki Strike on the "brawler v. enlightenment" scale, but Ki Strike (magic), at least, is worth turning into a feat, lest your brawler be completely worthless against monsters at higher levels. If you want to go further, you can trade out a lot of the weapon/armor proficiencies for things like better saves, more skill points, a better skill list, or even an AC Bonus like the monk's, if you want your guy to be unarmored, too. The standard core 3.5 fighter might not be what you're looking for, but if you add a few feats from other sources, make up a few more, and retool a few of the class's elements, it can be the toolkit for what you want.
Echo_that_Pains 08-30-06, 02:28 PM	I will have to double check, but i thought there was a PrC like what the OP described in the 3.0 Sword and Fist. I might be wrong, but i thought there was a Brawler class in there. I konw there is a Red Avenger, but i do not remember the specifics of that class. It has been too long for me to give an absolute answer, but if you are willing give Sword and Fist a try. There might be something in there that you are after.
Ralvuimego 08-30-06, 02:48 PM	Though I don't know of any classes for what you're looking for, it's honestly not that hard to pick apart the monk class and divide the abilities between Physical and Spiritual aspects of the class, then remove the spiritual aspects. The problem arises with the question on what you will replace the spiritual aspects with. Physical Aspects: The Bonus Feats, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike Damage, Fast Movement, Evasion, Slow Fall, and Improved Evasion. Spiritual Aspects: AC bonus, Still Mind, Ki Strike, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body, and Perfect Self. Without the Spiritual aspects, you lose a ton of the monk's defensive abilities, plus most of the fluff, while keeping most of the offensive power, save Ki Strike. I'd probably toss in a Full BAB, some abilities that emphasize toughness and strength, and maybe an agility based ability. (From a class making prospective, I see this class being a mobile fighter that's hard to pin down but not quite as flimsy as the monk, but loses on the anti-caster capability)
Sulaco 08-30-06, 02:48 PM	May I suggest Rule 0. Use the Monk Core class but get rid of the "wholeness stuff". Give them the next higher HD (d8 or d10 I forget) and feats instead of the holistic stuff. You may wish to make their saves the same as a fighter, instead of the Monk. That's bascially what we were doing with it. One thing we were considering is replacing the slow fall progression with sneak attack, and the higher-level spiritual abilities with barbarian-style rage, but that makes it potentially too powerful.
Sulaco 08-30-06, 02:49 PM	A D&D "monk," though, pretty much is all those spiritual aspects. Unarmed fighting's a part of it, but there's a lot more. Which is precisely why I don't want to jsut use monk or to retrofit the monk.
kelvinaw273 08-30-06, 02:54 PM	Anyone know of a book that has a Brawler class or somethign similar? I want something along the lines of a monk - an expert in had-to-hand largely weapons-free combat - but without all the seeking enlightenment and finding oneness stuff. Cheers. The problem is that the seeking enlightenement mysticism crap is pretty essential - it's like saying "Can I have a wizard without any of the spells crap?" Sure, in both cases it is called 'Commoner' in the DMG. Basically, the ki focus of a monk powers their abilities, their awareness (hence their AC) and their unarmed damage. Without that you get an unarmed fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike and a few feats. The easiest way to get what you want is to take a fighter and invent a few feats based on Improved Unarmed Strike to up the damage a bit and make it killing damage, but that's as far as you need to go.
Sulaco 08-30-06, 03:15 PM	The problem is that the seeking enlightenement mysticism crap is pretty essential - it's like saying "Can I have a wizard without any of the spells crap?" Once more from the top: This is precisely why I don't want to just use a monk, even a modified one, I want to find a specific brawler-type class specialized in unarmed combat which isn't focused on sprituality. I am well aware that I can use a fighter, but I don't want a fighter, I want a brawler. A holy warrior devoted to the cause of law and good or an uncivilized warrior from teh wastelands can be mere fighters with specific feats but it is almsot always better and more useful to use a Paladin and Barbarian respectively. The fighter class is built aroudn the assumption that said character will be wearing armor and wielding weapons - as evinced by the fact that fighters get those abilites for free. Femoving those is akin to removing spells forom a Wizard; you cobble the class by depriving it of its key tools. Specific roles require specific classes, and Brawler (aka. unarmed combat specialist) is, IMO, one of them. If no one knows of one then just say so - I'll make my own - but telling me "play a fighter" isn't much help. If someone asks "I want to buy a car, what do you think is a good one" then "you could take the bus" isn't really a helpful response. ;)
Yak of Darkness 08-30-06, 03:19 PM	Which is precisely why I don't want to jsut use monk or to retrofit the monk.Which is why I reccomended retrofitting the fighter. ;) Seriously, the modern stuff's a good place to start for "unarmed fighter" feats. They even have a (100% non-magical) Martial Artist advanced class that might be of interest. I'd also reccomend looking at cannibalizing the Buffy RPG (if you have access to it, at least for browsing) for possible inspiration on adding moves/techniques to unarmed combat, but it runs off a different (but similar) game system so conversion can be an issue. Plus, it's a little more kung-fuey than it is brawley, although a little renaming could take care of that.
tiluvias99 08-30-06, 04:29 PM	There's a ridiculous amount of Homebrew Unarmed Combat classes on the Classes board. My favorte happens to be This One (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=512489), but if you follow the link on my Sig to the Knockout Competition you should find a whole lot more. Also note that on the later pages of that thread you'll find some really good ones too that didn't make it in to the competition. You can also ceck the various class compendiums.
Yak of Darkness 08-30-06, 05:08 PM	If no one knows of one then just say so - I'll make my own - but telling me "play a fighter" isn't much help. If someone asks "I want to buy a car, what do you think is a good one" then "you could take the bus" isn't really a helpful response. ;)But it's not just "play a fighter." It's "You can play a fighter, but maybe adding feats A, B, and C, from source X. You should also add feats like D and E to the list to better facilitate what you want. Also, look at classes F and G, and maybe trade out the fighter's H, I, and J for K, L, or M.*" The end result could possibly just be a fighter with new feats, but would much more likely be a variant off the fighter with different minor ability configuration (some proficiencies, skills, saves) but a similar core (big HD, full BAB, lots of feats . . . with a new list tailored to unarmed combat). It can even be named "brawler." IMO, this doesn't really seem like it needs a whole new class that's built from scratch, when it would be far easier to take the already-existing "highly-customizable guy who's good at fighting with weapons" to "highly-customizable guy who's good at fighting without weapons," especially when other d20 products have ready-made feats to steal. A custom-made class devoted to non-magical unarmed combat would be nice, but if you've got "make my own" as an option on the table already, why force yourself away from basing it on what's already out there? That's not "play a fighter." * And I shall call my new class, THE ALPHABETOMANCER!
trapspringer 08-30-06, 09:42 PM	If everyone is saying something, you should at least consider the value of it. I wouldn't buy it straight away, but I'd think about it.
Aeromus 08-30-06, 11:08 PM	Anyone know of a book that has a Brawler class or somethign similar? I want something along the lines of a monk - an expert in had-to-hand largely weapons-free combat - but without all the seeking enlightenment and finding oneness stuff. Cheers. It's called, be a monk and call yourself a drunken brawler or whatever and rework how he gets his powers/training. God, do people have to have a special class for everything?
allenchan 08-30-06, 11:13 PM	Okay, quick question. Why not just use a Fighter? They are, in fact, amazing unarmed combatants if they utilize all their feats for it and have a high Str. Considering that a Fighter can have an enchanted gauntlet, power attacking, weapon focus and spec trees, they will on average out damage a monk. Throw in the new unarmed feat from Tome of Battle and some tactical stuff, and they're better then monks.
Ralvuimego 08-30-06, 11:57 PM	Okay, quick question. Why not just use a Fighter? They are, in fact, amazing unarmed combatants if they utilize all their feats for it and have a high Str. Considering that a Fighter can have an enchanted gauntlet, power attacking, weapon focus and spec trees, they will on average out damage a monk. Throw in the new unarmed feat from Tome of Battle and some tactical stuff, and they're better then monks. Alright, look. Sualco has already said he doesn't want to be a fighter. Three times. It's already been proposed and shot down. You should at least read the whole thread before replying to it. It's called, be a monk and call yourself a drunken brawler or whatever and rework how he gets his powers/training. God, do people have to have a special class for everything? Honestly, yes I admit there is an overabundance of core classes being churned out by players trying to fit what would easily be fit by a multiclass character, however, it has already been said that the monk is not what he's looking for. ALL of the monk's spiritual abilities don't fit what Sualco's looking for, no matter how you churn up the fluff, because there's no real way to explain how a wrestler/boxer suddenly has spell resistance and can teleport, and is justified to become a native outsider at level 20. God, do people have to ignore the fact that these boards were meant as a way to pool a DM's/Player's experiences and help people answer questions? ------------------------------------------- As to my opinion of what to do, the fastest way to achive what you're looking for is probably to chop up the barbarian and monk lists and piece them together with a d10 hit dice and full base attack progression, but after attempting that myself I decided that more of the abilities that fit the class come from the barbarian (In fact, all of the barbarian's abilities fit well and it stole the barbarian's thunder quite supurbly.) I'm trying right now to toss together a class that fits this concept, which I'll post in the Classes board once it's finished, and link to it here.
Vintar 08-31-06, 12:28 AM	You could always go fighter into a modified martial artist advanced class from d20 modern.
Aeromus 08-31-06, 02:28 AM	Alright, look. Sualco has already said he doesn't want to be a fighter. Three times. It's already been proposed and shot down. You should at least read the whole thread before replying to it. Honestly, yes I admit there is an overabundance of core classes being churned out by players trying to fit what would easily be fit by a multiclass character, however, it has already been said that the monk is not what he's looking for. ALL of the monk's spiritual abilities don't fit what Sualco's looking for, no matter how you churn up the fluff, because there's no real way to explain how a wrestler/boxer suddenly has spell resistance and can teleport, and is justified to become a native outsider at level 20. God, do people have to ignore the fact that these boards were meant as a way to pool a DM's/Player's experiences and help people answer questions? ------------------------------------------- As to my opinion of what to do, the fastest way to achive what you're looking for is probably to chop up the barbarian and monk lists and piece them together with a d10 hit dice and full base attack progression, but after attempting that myself I decided that more of the abilities that fit the class come from the barbarian (In fact, all of the barbarian's abilities fit well and it stole the barbarian's thunder quite supurbly.) I'm trying right now to toss together a class that fits this concept, which I'll post in the Classes board once it's finished, and link to it here. So take a bonus feat in place of all those lame monk abilities you don't want. If if you opt out of all the crazy monk stuff, and take a bonus feat, you still have a worse BAB progression, worse number of attacks (unless you keep flurry) and a worse AC, less Hitpoints. And, you can always fluff those abilities. Instead of Diminsion Door, call it, lightning dodge roll, OMg give him, DR 10 adamantine instead of magic, or just change it to 4/- if that better fits. It's not that hard people. But, oh wait, I want to be a muskateer/pirate like class... but, don't want to choose fighter, rogue, or specialized Ranger class to do. Oh I know lets make a all new class called the swashbuckler. D&D doesn't need all these fluff classes, any alternate class, sans Warlock can be made by combining 2 classes slightly, or modifying the class slightly, which the DMG encourages you to do to fit a players idea of the class.
allenchan 08-31-06, 02:54 AM	Alright, look. Sualco has already said he doesn't want to be a fighter. Three times. It's already been proposed and shot down. And yet, that still doesn't mean there's a reason not to. Fighter was made to be versatile, you dont need a whole new class to fill a niche when something already does it--quite effectively, I might add.
Aeromus 08-31-06, 03:39 AM	Dude, he can't get his head around using the fighter, and calling it a brawler.
Tenzhi 08-31-06, 03:56 AM	As to my opinion of what to do, the fastest way to achive what you're looking for is probably to chop up the barbarian and monk lists and piece them together with a d10 hit dice and full base attack progression, but after attempting that myself I decided that more of the abilities that fit the class come from the barbarian (In fact, all of the barbarian's abilities fit well and it stole the barbarian's thunder quite supurbly.) Indeed, just using the Barbarian (which is less dependant on the armed and armoured combatant schtick than the fighter, and has class abilities befitting a Brawler) with the Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle, prereqs of IUA and BAB +3, basically gives you the monk's damage progression) feats would probably fit the bill nicely. Drop the armor and weapon proficiencies, and the HD down to d8/d10, and the skill points to match the fighter's and you could probably justify throwing in the feats for free as well as some sort of AC bonus if you really wanted to trick it out.
Legdiwena 08-31-06, 08:41 AM	what you described is Brawler sub-class from Everquest 2, might try looking in Everquest Campaign Setting
OravennasBrother 08-31-06, 10:50 AM	Dragon (isue 311 IIRC) had several "Fighter Specialists" and one was a Pugilist. Very tough in a brawl, still good enough in a fight with weapons. Got Unarmed Combat as an EXTRA feat - as well as the basic one all fighters get at first, but only had simple weapons. Had a few "Pugilist Only" feats - one of which soaked subdual damage, another made his fists do extra subdual (beyond what you might get from specilization) etc. Another Fighter option is to see if the DM will allow the WF tree to apply to ALL unarmed (Punching/Kicking and Grappling) which might make it seem a bit better. Also look to d20 modern and import/modify a feat or two from the Martial Arts Feats.
punching bag 08-31-06, 10:52 AM	You could look at the "Blood and Fists" supplement for d20 modern. I think that there was a "back-alley brawler" class in there. It was a class for a bad dude who could knock heads, but he had limited or no formal training. It might work if you and your DM can agree on a conversion... You'll also find styles, feats etc. that might help build your brawler without having to worry about any of that "monastic ascetic" stuff. This may not be exactly what you want, but I can't think of a vanilla core or prestige class that would fit the bill. By excluding the fighter and the monk, you will probably have to resort to a custom class. Hmm. Three things you said you didn't want. :confused: Sorry if this doesn't help.
Sulaco 08-31-06, 10:55 AM	It's called, be a monk and call yourself a drunken brawler or whatever and rework how he gets his powers/training. God, do people have to have a special class for everything? It's called, we are already doing that but I was curious if anyone knew of an existing purpose-built brawler class already inexistence that might be better suited for the task. God, why do people have to be so presumptuous and rude about everything?
Sulaco 08-31-06, 01:08 PM	Dude, he can't get his head around using the fighter, and calling it a brawler. "Dude", I can get my head around a lot more things than you likely know even exist. I have been playing D&D for a quarter of a century and I am well aware of the fact I can build it as a fighter and call it a jam donut if I want, that was not the question I asked. I simply wanted to know if there was a purpose-built Brawler-style class around so that I could see if that class better suits the specific character concept I have in mind. Really, how hard is that to comprehend? The only one seeminlgly unable to get their head around - or out of - something here is you. I asked a simple question. If you don't have an answer then that is fine, but if you could drop the BS holier-the-thou attitude that would be super.
Sulaco 08-31-06, 01:12 PM	You could look at the "Blood and Fists" supplement for d20 modern. I think that there was a "back-alley brawler" class in there. It was a class for a bad dude who could knock heads, but he had limited or no formal training. It might work if you and your DM can agree on a conversion... You'll also find styles, feats etc. that might help build your brawler without having to worry about any of that "monastic ascetic" stuff. This may not be exactly what you want, but I can't think of a vanilla core or prestige class that would fit the bill. By excluding the fighter and the monk, you will probably have to resort to a custom class. Hmm. Three things you said you didn't want. :confused: Sorry if this doesn't help. It helps quite a bit, actually. The back-alley brawler sounds very appropriate and very promising. I'll look into it. Thanks.
punching bag 08-31-06, 03:28 PM	It helps quite a bit, actually. The back-alley brawler sounds very appropriate and very promising. I'll look into it. Thanks. Check this out! They had a preview pdf at RPGObjects: http://www.rpgobjects.com/pdf/RPO3002_preview.pdf It has the class listing and everything. It'll still require conversion, as this is a d20 Modern advanced class, and some of the bonus feats listed are only in the "blood and fists" book.
Cifer 08-31-06, 04:36 PM	Is this about the Friar-Tuck inspired character you wanted to do a while ago? I took up the idea myself... actually, the monk class isn't that bad when reflavoured and not taken to its higher levels (if you drop out the lawful requirement). However, I don't know about a specific brawler base class.
Sulaco 08-31-06, 05:31 PM	Is this about the Friar-Tuck inspired character you wanted to do a while ago? I took up the idea myself... actually, the monk class isn't that bad when reflavoured and not taken to its higher levels (if you drop out the lawful requirement). However, I don't know about a specific brawler base class. I never wanted to do a Friar Tuck-inspired character. You must be thinking of someone else. The inspiration for the character is this D&D miniature: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/DQ_Minis_x/TavernBrawler.jpg He is a drunk and a lout. He was a city guard, briefly, but got the ouster for drunkeness. He spent time making ends meet as a tough, brawler, and thug-for-hire, bascially anything where he could put his fists (or knees, elbows, or forehead) to use and get enough cash together from more drink. Recent events have forced him to leave town - quickly - and he has found himself part of a band of ruffians (read: adventurers) in a small wilderness border-fort where the campaign begins. In many ways he is like Titus Pullo of HBO's Rome series, sans the long military service and discipline. As you can see the monastic ascetic model of the D&D Monk doesn't really fit and neither does the trained combatant model of the D&D Fighter, which is why I am looking at other options. Yes I can make do with a modified Monk or Fighter but a purpose-built and playtested Brawler-type class would be preferred, which is why I sought advice on locating one.
Cifer 08-31-06, 09:03 PM	I never wanted to do a Friar Tuck-inspired character. You must be thinking of someone else. The inspiration for the character is this D&D miniature: Mixed it up partly. You already mentioned the guy on some thread, I'm sure... whatever.
MindWandererB 09-01-06, 02:36 AM	I can't believe no one has mentioned Tome of Battle. Check out the Swordsage, and look at the "adaptation" section. Or take just about any martial class you like--barbarian and warblade would be my top picks--and take the feat from Tome of Battle that gives you monklike unarmed attack damage.
Tenzhi 09-01-06, 02:47 AM	I can't believe no one has mentioned Tome of Battle. It's been *mentioned* at least twice (thrice counting your post). In any case, methinks the martial disciplines and maneuvers may be well beyond what Sulaco is looking for - which seems to be a bread & butter pugilist.
OravennasBrother 09-01-06, 12:00 PM	The inspiration for the character is this D&D miniature: He is a drunk and a lout. He was a city guard, briefly, but got the ouster for drunkeness. He spent time making ends meet as a tough, brawler, and thug-for-hire, As you can see the monastic ascetic model of the D&D Monk doesn't really fit and neither does the trained combatant model of the D&D Fighter, Eh, I still think your best bet is a Full BAB Class; say a fighter type with natural talent for smashing things with his fists. Not all charater concepts require a new "Core Class" and this seems to be one. Take feats fit for a brawler, multiclass with Rogue or Barbarian or whatever fits the concept. NOt every fighter is disciplined - some just have a lot of combat experience and tricks up their sleeve. I might even go so far as to say Fighters who take Iron will tend to be disciplined and those who don't are generally NOT. The Fighter is the MOST customizable core combat class, the figure shown appears to be wearing brigandine armor (Leather or Studded leather) and carries a sword at his hip, so a Fighter (perhaps a specialist within the fighter class similar to a specialist wizard) who is a lout really does SEEM to fit the bill. I personally find the trend to create a "New Base Class" for every concept to be disturbing. At some point either balance is lost or the new classes are functionally identical AND the large number of base classes makes it harder to pick one for a character.
Tanus 09-01-06, 12:18 PM	Have you thought about Fighter? (kidding) ;) I made a character similar to this at one point. All I did was rename and re-flavor all of the "spiritual" monk abilities. For example, Wisdom bonus to AC doesn't have to come from your Ki or whatever. You know how to handle yourself in a fight and know when someone is about to throw a punch. Stunning Fist is no more than a Haymaker punch to the Jaw..etc...
Sulaco 09-01-06, 12:37 PM	Eh, I still think your best bet is a Full BAB Class; say a fighter type with natural talent for smashing things with his fists. Not all charater concepts require a new "Core Class" and this seems to be one. Take feats fit for a brawler, multiclass with Rogue or Barbarian or whatever fits the concept. NOt every fighter is disciplined - some just have a lot of combat experience and tricks up their sleeve. I might even go so far as to say Fighters who take Iron will tend to be disciplined and those who don't are generally NOT. The Fighter is the MOST customizable core combat class, the figure shown appears to be wearing brigandine armor (Leather or Studded leather) and carries a sword at his hip, so a Fighter (perhaps a specialist within the fighter class similar to a specialist wizard) who is a lout really does SEEM to fit the bill. I personally find the trend to create a "New Base Class" for every concept to be disturbing. At some point either balance is lost or the new classes are functionally identical AND the large number of base classes makes it harder to pick one for a character. Once more unto the breach... I am aware that a fighter-build is one way of going about this. I am not looking for advice on how to create the character, I am looking for sources for an existing Bralwer-style class which might suit the character. I personally find the trend look down on someone for seeking an alternate class as somehow being deficient or jumping on a "trend" to be disturbing.
Otto the Bugbear 09-01-06, 12:48 PM	From The Dungeonomicon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=659653) Monk "I am a Grand Master of Flowers. You are not." Fantasy literature's view of the "martial artist" has about as much to do with a real martial artist as its view of salamanders has to do with real salamanders. But let's face the facts: Monks are totally sweet. They flip out and kill people with their hands. A Monk does not practice any "real" martial art, we call those people "Fighters" – a Monk practices an entirely magical martial art that only works in areas where badgers can talk and winged horses can fly. Every Monk follows a different martial path that involves jumping super high and having glowing things coming off of their hands when they perform their super moves. Some monks use weapons, but most just use their hands and feet to devastating effect. Some Monks shout the names of their techniques in battle to demoralize their opponents; others stay aloof and silent during even the toughest of challenges. Alignment: Monks may be of any alignment. Really. If a bar brawl breaks out, some Monks will try to break it up and others will join in. Whatever. Races: Because the martial paths of a Monk embrace all manners of comportment, from Stoic Lawfulness to Boisterous Chaos, almost every sapient race has those who take up the monk's path. With its lack of emphasis on ranged weaponry, few of the slower races turn towards these magical combat styles, and halflings and dwarves rarely become monks. The discipline emphasizes physical strength as much as it emphasizes perceptiveness and inner strength, so orcs are as likely to become monks as Kuo-Toa are. Starting Gold: 2d4x10 (50 gold) Starting Age: As Monk. Hit Die: d8 Class Skills: The Monk's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus BAB: Full Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good Level, Benefit 1 Armored in Life, Fatal Strike, Willow Step, Fighting Style 2 Rain of Flowers, Abundant Leap 3 Fighting Style 4 Diamond Soul 5 Fighting Style 6 Walk of a Thousand Steps 7 Fighting Style 8 Immaculate Diamond Soul 9 Master Fighting Style 10 Leap of the Clouds 11 Master Fighting Style 12 Master of the Four Winds 13 Master Fighting Style 14 Master of the Four Seasons 15 Grand Master Fighting Style 16 Master of Diamond Soul 17 Grand Master Fighting Style 18 Perfect Mastery 19 Grand Master Fighting Style 20 Grand Master of Flowers All of the following are Class Features of the Monk class: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with all simple weapons, as well any weapon defined as a special monk weapon, such as the sai, the nunchuka, the kama, the shuriken, and the triple staff. Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields of any kind. Armored in Life (Su): A Monk has a special Armor bonus whenever they are not using armor or shields that he is not proficient in. This Armor Bonus applies against Touch Attacks and Incorporeal Touch Attacks, and has a value of +4. Every even numbered class level, the Armored in Life bonus increases by 1. If the Monk wears armor that he is proficient in (for example: normal clothing) that has an enhancement bonus, that enhancement bonus applies to his Armored in Life Armor Bonus. Willow Step (Su): A true monk does not seek to outrun the fist, but to anticipate it. If a Monk would be allowed to add his Dexterity modifier to a Reflex Save or Armor Class, he may add his Wisdom bonus (if positive) instead. Fatal Strike (Su): A Monk has a natural weapon Slam in addition to whatever else he is capable of doing. As a natural slam attack, if he uses no other natural or manufactured weapons he adds his Strength and a half to damage and may make iterative attacks if he has sufficient BAB. If the slam is used with other weaponry, it becomes a secondary natural attack, suffers a -5 penalty to hit, and adds only half his Strength modifier to damage. A monk's slam attack does a base of 1d8 damage for a medium sized monk and does more or less damage as appropriate if the Monk is larger or smaller than medium size. Fighting Style (Su): At levels 1, 3, 5, and 7, the Monk learns a Fighting Style. Each Fighting style requires a Swift Action to activate, lasts one round, and is usable at will. Each Fighting Style must have a name (see Naming Your Fighting Style below), and provides two bonuses from the Fighting Style Abilities: · Fighting Style Abilities · While Active, your Fighting Style provides a +4 Dodge Bonus to AC. · While Active, your Fighting Style provides a +4 Dodge Bonus to Saving Throws. · While Active, your Fighting Style forces any opponent struck by your slam attack to make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + ˝ your character level + your Wisdom Modifier) or become stunned for one round. · While Active, your Fighting Style allows you to make an attack of opportunity against any opponent who attacks you. This attack of opportunity must be a trip or disarm attempt. · While Active, your Fighting Style provides you with concealment. · While Active, your Fighting Style provides a +30' Insight Bonus to your movement rate. · While Active, your Fighting Style allows your slam attacks to ignore hardness and DR. · While Active, your Fighting Style provides any bonuses it gives to your slam attack to any attack you make with any weapon. · While Active, your Fighting Style causes your slam attack to inflict piercing damage and to inflict 2 points of Constitution damage. · While Active, your Fighting Style causes your slam attack to inflict slashing damage and to reduce your opponent's movement rate by 10' every time they suffer damage from it. This movement rate reduction can be healed like ability damage (treating 5' of movement as 1 point of ability damage). · While Active, your Fighting Style allows you to move through occupied spaces as if they were unoccupied and you provoke no attacks of opportunity for your movement. Rain of Flowers (Su): Any time a 2nd level Monk inflicts lethal damage, he may elect to inflict non-lethal damage instead. Any time a Monk inflicts non-lethal damage, he may elect to inflict lethal damage instead. There is no penalty for choosing either form of damage. Abundant Leap (Su): At 2nd level, a Monk's ability to jump is unbounded by his height. In addition, the DC for any jump check is divided by two. Diamond Soul (Su): At 4th level, the Monk gains Spell Resistance equal to 5 + his character level. At 8th level, his soul becomes immaculate and his Spell Resistance improves to 10 + character level, and at 16th level he masters his diamond soul and his spell resistance improves to 15 + character level. Walk of a Thousand Steps: Once per day, a Monk of sixth level or higher may activate a Fighting Style and extend its duration to 1 round/level rather than 1 round. Activating this Fighting Style is still a Swift Action. Other Fighting Styles may be activated during this period, though their duration is normally going to be only 1 round. Master Fighting Style (Su): At levels 9, 11, and 13, the Monk learns a Master Fighting Style. Each Master Fighting style requires a Swift Action to activate, lasts one round, and is usable at will. Each Master Fighting Style must have a name (see Naming Your Fighting Style below), and provides two bonuses from the Master Fighting Style Abilities. When a Monk gains a new Master Fighting Style, he may replace one of his Fighting Styles with a different Fighting Style. · Master Fighting Style Abilities: · While Active, your Master Fighting Style allows you to teleport yourself and everything you are physically carrying 60 feet in any direction as a free action usable once per round. · While Active, your Master Fighting Style provides total concealment. · While Active, your Master Fighting Style transforms your slam attacks into Force effects that inflict Force damage. · While Active, your Master Fighting Style affects any creature struck with your slam attack with a banishment effect that transports it back to its home plane unless it succeeds at a Will save (DC 10 + ˝ character level + Wisdom Modifier). Outsiders suffer a -4 penalty to their saving throw. A creature so banished, may not return to the plane it was banished from for a year. · While Active, your Master Fighting Style forces any creature struck by your slam attack to make a Reflex Save (DC 10 + ˝ character level + Wisdom Modifier) or be helpless for one round. · While Active, your Master Fighting Style provides you the effect of an air walk spell, and gives you a +20' Competence bonus to your speed. · While Active, your Master Fighting Style affects any opponent you successfully trip or bullrush with the violent thrust version of telekinesis, with a caster level equal to your character level. There is no saving throw against this effect. · While Active, your Master Fighting Style allows you to shoot fire out of your hands or mouth as a standard action. The fire can be shot out to medium range, requires a ranged touch attack, and inflicts 1d6 of fire damage per character level if it hits. · While Active, your Master Fighting Style causes your slam attack to inflict vile damage. · While Active, your Master Fighting Style forces every creature within 10 feet of you to make a Will save (DC 10 + ˝ character level + Wisdom Modifier) or become panicked for one minute. · While Active, your Master Fighting Style affects any target you strike with your slam attack with a targeted version greater dispelling with a caster level equal to your character level. · While Active, your Master Fighting Style causes 5d6 of Sonic damage to everything within 30 feet of you when you inflict damage with your slam attack against any target. You are immune to Sonic damage while your Master Fighting Style is active. · Instead of gaining a Master Fighting Style Ability, you may choose two regular Fighting Style Abilities. Leap of the Clouds (Su): At 10th level, the DC for any jump check is divided by 5. Master of the Four Winds (Su): The Monk's breath of life is carried on the winds of fate. At 12th level, if the monk is restored to life, he doesn't lose a level for doing so. Master of the Four Seasons: Time passes relentlessly in the world, but for a monk of 14th level, the change of seasons is as no change at all. He no longer appears to age, never accumulates any additional penalties for growing older and will never die of old age. Grand Master Fighting Style (Su): At levels 15, 17, and 19, the Monk learns a Grand Master Fighting Style. Each Grand Master Fighting style requires a Swift Action to activate, lasts one round, and is usable at will. Each Grand Master Fighting Style must have a name (see Naming Your Fighting Style below), and provides two bonuses from the Grand Master Fighting Style Abilities. When a Monk gains a new Grand Master Fighting Style, he may replace one of his Fighting Styles or Master Fighting Style with a different Style of the same type. · Grand Master Fighting Style Abilities: · While Active, your Grand Master Fighting Style makes you and everything you are carrying incorporeal; your slam attacks are incorporeal touch attacks. · While Active, your Grand Master Fighting Style slows down time to the point where you can act twice each round. You do not gain an extra Swift Action during theses extra actions. · While Active, your Grand Master Fighting Style allows you to punch a hole through space and time, allowing you to open a travel version of gate with a slam attack. · While Active, your Grand Master Fighting Style prevents all [Teleport] effects from entering or exiting within 1 mile of your location. · While Active, your Grand Master Fighting Style causes your slam attacks to reduce the spell resistance of enemies by an equal amount to the damage the slam attack inflicts. · While Active, your Grand Master Fighting Style forces every creature struck with your slam attack to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ˝ character level + Wisdom Modifier) or die. · While Active, your Grand Master Fighting Style affects any target you strike with your slam attack with a disintegrate effect, with a caster level equal to your character level. · While Active, your Grand Master Fighting Style causes you to regenerate. You recover a number of points of nonlethal damage each round equal to your character level. Unarmed or Slam attacks inflict regular damage. · While Active, your Grand Master Fighting Style forces any opponent you strike with your slam attack to make a Willpower save (DC 10 + ˝ character level + Wisdom Modifier) or become feeble minded. · While Active, your Grand Master Fighting Style affects every target you strike with a slam attack with the violent thrust version of telekinesis, with a caster level equal to your character level. There is no saving throw against this effect. · Instead of gaining a Grand Master Fighting Style Ability, you may choose two Master Fighting Style Abilities. Perfect Mastery: Once per day, a Monk of 18th level or higher may activate a Fighting Style, Master Fighting Style, or Grand Master Fighting Style and extend its duration to 1 round/level rather than 1 round. Activating this style is still a Swift Action. Other styles may be activated during this period, though their duration is normally going to be only 1 round Grand Master of Flowers: At 20th level, the Monk becomes an Outsider, and immortal of legend. He gains the augmented subtype of his previous type, and has Damage Reduction of 20/Epic. Naming your Fighting Style: Roll a d10, or choose an adjective, an animal, and a noun: Adjective Chart: 1. Running 2. Hungry 3. Angry 4. Naked 5. Drunken 6. Fortunate 7. Lazy 8. Swift 9. Powerful 10. Enlightened Animal Chart: 1. Ox 2. Tiger 3. Dragon 4. Crane 5. Monkey 6. Turtle 7. Manticore 8. Serpent 9. Hummingbird 10. Demon Noun Chart: 1. Fist 2. Stance 3. Spinning Kick 4. Attack 5. Technique 6. Style 7. Dance 8. Movement 9. Touch 10. Fu · Note from the authors: Feel free to add any adjectives, animals, or nouns that you want. There's no reason that your character's fighting style has to be called "Naked Tiger Stance" rather than "Astonished Centaur Defense". Now, there are some mystical, magical effects that are more than just "I punch things really fracking hard", but this would make for an excellent base given the request you gave. Cheers Otto :)
OravennasBrother 09-01-06, 02:57 PM	Once more unto the breach... I am aware that a fighter-build is one way of going about this. I am not looking for advice on how to create the character, I am looking for sources for an existing Bralwer-style class which might suit the character. Once more - there IS an existing class which does Brawler; the FIGHTER class. But Wait I have THE solution The Brawler Class BAB- Full Good Saves - Fort Special Abiities - Gain one "Brawler" bonus feat at first level and every even level. HD - 10 sided Die Armor and Weapons - A Brawler is good with most weapons and Armor, having Proficiency with all martial weapons, all Simple Weapons and All armor and shields including Tower shields. Nonetheless many brawlers disdain heavy armor and prefer to use their fists and whatever furniture is laying about. Alignment Restriction - None, but Brawlers tend to be Chaotic more often than Lawful. There perhaps that can help. It certainly is a very good FIT FOR THE MINIATURE IN QUESTION.
Sulaco 09-01-06, 04:17 PM	It certainly is a very good FIT FOR THE MINIATURE IN QUESTION. Once more, cos for some reason some people still cannot seem to comprehend this very, very simple fact: I am well aware that I can make a fighter who is geared towards unarmed combat. The point of my question was to find out if there might be a different exsiting class that was a better FIT FOR THE CHARACTER IN QUESTION. Fighters are built around the assumption that they will be wearing increasingly heavy armor and wielding an array of weapons, neither of which is a FIT FOR THE CHARACTER IN QUESTION. The Monk is a specific unarmed build in that it assumes little to no amor and a small array of weapons at best and thus compensates for these with bonuses to AC and unarmed damage, but it also focuses heavily on acesticism and thus is not a FIT FOR THE CHARACTER IN QUESTION. Does that make it clear enough or do I need to use illustrations?
OravennasBrother 09-01-06, 07:15 PM	Fighters are built around the assumption that they will be wearing increasingly heavy armor and wielding an array of weapons, Gee one full point difference between the maximum AC+Dex Bonus for a Chain Shirt and Full Plate. I'm unsure whether that is SO MUCH as to disallow a fighter in light armor. I've seen plenty of fighters with one main weapon. The character described - a nasty brawler - has his Fists as a main weapon. How hard is it to get gauntlets of different materials if you MUST attack Outsiders etc in a Barroom? No truly, the character described should do very well in a barrrom brawl, but unless he decides to actually don heavier (more uncomfortable) armor and use a weapon he will be at a disadvantage in a fight against a Dragon. The only way to overcome that limitation, inherent in the Brawler Concept, is to be a MONK and get MYSTICAL abilities to make up for the character's lack of weapons and armor. So as I see it the fighter fits the concept as described exactly. Whether someone wants to play a "plain Jane" fighter does not change that the Fighter Class is a perfect fit for a barroom brawler. And my advice to your DM would be for him to tell you to play the character as a fighter or get a different concept.
Zuj 09-01-06, 08:52 PM	Galstaff casts *Friendship* on both of you ;) The defender class form Fantasy Flight Games' Midnight Setting (core book)might be pretty cool, if you drop some of the "champion of good" fluff. They get good unarmed damage, full warrior attack and good AC, without the wisdom bonus stuff that a monk gets. Also, you can custom pick some brawling abilities. In my opinion, this would be the best "brawler" class out there. Another interesting option might be taking the warblade out of Tome of Battle (already mentioned I think). You could give him some of the stuff from the Tiger Claw school, and Superior Unarmed Strike (for good damage). He'd be a hell of a brawler, and a rough and tumble kind of fellow (like the miniature) could fit the warblade bill pretty well, I think. (I do think the first option is best though, seriously check it out)
Cochise 09-01-06, 09:40 PM	I did a class that should fit what your looking for. My english was (and still is) bad when i did it. Never tested it, only 1 on 1 combats vs basic classes at a few levels, it was balanced for these, but you'll have to get it approved by your DM. Its still in work, if you have any suggestions about it, just tell. Here it is : http://savefile.com/files/21101 (http://savefile.com/files/21101)
Oakspar77777 09-01-06, 11:34 PM	I had such a class, which I actually had named "Brawler" that I put up on the boards before the boards before these boards (several years ago, as it was in tandem with a "Philosopher", which was my go at a spontaneous divine caster before we got the FS in the MH.) While I don't have it on file (different computer back then as well), I'll be happy to toss out the brunt of it (without all that time consuming flavor text that you hardly need). Brawler Oneness is the state of mind that occurs when you arethe only one standing over all of your foes. Brawlers are unarmed combatants. Whether mighty wrestlers like ancient Greece, a non-mystic martial artist, an Irish pugalist, or just a sunken knuckel thug, the Brawler is one tough dude. Adventures Brawlers adventure for all the normal reasons: loot, reputation, and the glory of battle. Characteristics The key feature of Brawlers is their unarmed force. As a Brawler gains in experience, he grows stronger, tougher, and can beat down anything that moves. Alignment Brawlers can be of any alignment, but many grow up on the streets and thus shy away from Lawful alignments. Pugalist or Wrestlers from a devoted school, however, might be. Religion Brawlers can be of any religion, but tend to deities that honor physical strength, like Kord. Background To become a Brawler takes a good deal of practice and hardbody training. Since street and bar fights, and the associated beatings a person takes are more than ample training over time. Of course, some Brawlers belong to dedicated schools that advocate styles of unarmed combat (without all that spiritual mumbo-jumbo). Races Any race can become Brawlers. Half-orcs Bralwers tend to be street thugs. Elven Brawlers tend to be Martial Artist. Dwarves have long been known for both Wrestlers and Pugalist. Pugalism is also a common sport among many Halflings. Other Classes Brawlers naturally get along with Rogues, since they often grow up in the same environment. Brawlers and Fighters are often very competative. Any class that can heal damage is a Brawler's best friend. Brawlers and Barbarians tend to get along quiet well and are often multiclassed together. Role The Brawler can be a useful scout, much as a Ranger, but without the true skill of a Rogue. They can serve as a frontline fighter, but their lower defence makes them more agressive (much like Barbarians) than Fighters or Paladins. GAME RULE INFORMATION Abilities ST is important for damage and hitting like any melee class. DX is important for AC, due to armor restrictions. CN is important for HP, since Brawlers tend to soak alot of hurt. IN is important for taking advantage of the Brawler's good skill choices (which intentionally exceed his ability to take skills to maximize customization, but not usurp true auxillary classes). WS is predominately not useful (apart from associated skills and Will saves), and many would argue a hinderance to this class. CH is predominately also not useful, nor common in Brawlers, who often show battlescars like flattened noses, crooked jaws, caulifoured ears, and the like. Alignment Any. HD: d12 Skills: 4 + IN Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Local), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope (physical skills, since this class is focused on making the body a weapon; awareness skills, since they are necessary for surviving the hard streets or anticipating your foe's next move; no craft or profession feats, as this class is a reflection of either someone who has devoted their life to unarmed combat or the fact that if someone had a marketable skill, they wouldn't become a street Brawler) Class Features Wpn and Armor Prof Wpns: Unarmed Strike (as a natural weapon) and Simple Weapons Armr: Light Armor only. Heavier armor or shields remove Unarmed Damage ability. BAB: +1/LV (as fighter) Saves: Good Fort and Ref, Poor Will Unarmed Damage/Strike: As Monk AC Bonus: The Brawler gains a NAC equal to 1/4 his class level (round down, +1 at LV4, up to +5 at LV20) Bonus Feats: At levels 1 and every thrid level after that (4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19) you gain a bonus feat from the Fighter list. If there is a Weapon Choice, it can only be Unarmed Strike. At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Brawler gains a bonus feat. This feat must either be a +2/+2 skill feat with at least one class skill OR Skil Focus in a class skill. Beat DR/Hardness: Starting at LV 2, the Brawler can ignore hardness or DR equal to 1/2 their class level with their Unarmed Strike. Thus, if a LV8 Brawler hits at creature with DR5/Anything, it is treated as only DR1/Anything, stopping only one point of damage. Likewise, if he hits an item with Hardness 8, it would be considered Hardness 4 against the attack. Speed Bonus: When wearing light or no armor, a Brawler can move faster starting at LV6 with +10' per round. The Brawler gains an aditional +10' per round at levels 12 and 18. Evasion and Improved Evasion: LV4 and LV14. Hope that helps. The basic jist is that you have someone with a lower AC, but plenty of HP to back it up. The street skills can give an otherwise straightforward melee class some flavor. The Beat DR/Hardness is a great way to make the unarmed strikes useful against ANY DR (which Monks sometimes miss out on), but not completely, so high DR is still useful to the foe as well. Really, it is just a Monk who trades out goofy spiritual abilities for physical abilities. I find that this Brawler fills the same role as the Ranger, as a secondary melee / secondary scout type character.
FeceMan 09-02-06, 02:24 AM	No thanks. If I wanted to take a fighter I'd take a fighter. What I want is essentially a monk - a dedicated had-to-hand largely weapons-free combatant - but without the spiritual aspects. Take a fighter, but exchange feats for certain aspects of the monk class that you want (like the generic warrior class).
Keevo_Darkwood 09-02-06, 11:36 PM	No thanks. If I wanted to take a fighter I'd take a fighter. Take a fighter...(remainder omitted for brevity) Oh, dear. :rolleyes: *seeing Sulaco finally snap, leaping up from his chair and letting loose an ear-splitting, bone-chilling, blood-curdling HOWL of rage...he charges toward the startled FeceMan, hands outstretched and itching for blood...since I happen to be sitting near FeceMan and am not too keen on being in the way, I grab a nearby NPC who's been listening in, and fling the poor sap into Sulaco's grasp...Sulaco's veins in his forehead are throbbing wildly as he latches onto the NPC's throat and squeezes like he's a diabetic whose prankster friend put his insulin into a previously-empty toothpaste tube...the poor nameless guy's eyes bulge out of his head, big as saucers, while his tongue is sagging out of his mouth towards the floor...his arms flap around like a pair of drowning fish as Sulaco hisses his rebuttal* "I'VE GOT....YOUR FIGHTER....RIGHT HERE!!" :headexplo :hoppingma :headexplo *Finally, the hapless NPC's skull can take no more...his eyes pop rather messily like a pair of squashed grapes, and his body deflates, akin to a dead balloon. His rage slowly subsiding, Sulaco lets the broken body drop to the floor as he returns to his seat, puffs of steam still issuing forth from his ears* (whispers to FeceMan) You owe me one. :D
FeceMan 09-03-06, 01:13 PM	What? I understand what Sulaco wants. I'm not saying "omg ur so dumb take fighter". Exchanging some fighter feats for monk abilities gives him the freedom of picking up an increase to his unarmed attacks without the stupid "oneness" stuff that makes me hate the monk class.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-03-06, 01:48 PM	I originally created a brawler class for a game I was going to run called "Samurai Roulette" In short, it's a class that CAN use unarmed attacks, but isn't limited to (at least not at higher levels). It's a class that focuses incredibly heavily on strength and power attack, and gains special abilities that increase the multiplier to its strength bonus on damage rolls for unarmed attacks and two handed weapons. It also gains the monks flurry of blows ability, but it can be used with weapons (as long as the flurry attacks are unarmed), and then at higher levels it can be used with improvised weapons and then finally martial weapons. It also gains some other assorted abilities, such as a bonus to HP that's dependent upon strength modifier, and "Precision Power," an ability at 18th level that lets the brawler sacrifice their strength bonus to damage (entirely mind you) in order to gain a bonus to attack equal to their strength modifier (NOT equal to the damage they sacrificed). The class is really more like a barbarian than a monk, minus the rage. I based it loosely on the character Sanosuke from Rurouni Kenshin. I have a full write up if you're still looking for something but, obviously, I made it so I can't attest to the professionalism or balance of it.
trapspringer 09-03-06, 08:30 PM	What? I understand what Sulaco wants. I'm not like the halfwit who keeps saying "omg ur so dumb take fighter". Exchanging some fighter feats for monk abilities gives him the freedom of picking up an increase to his unarmed attacks without the stupid "oneness" stuff that makes me hate the monk class. The reason the suggestions to take fighter continue is becasue of the half interested, indifferent way what's his face dismissed it. This manner of dismissal suggested a total and complete lack of thought on the subject, and thsoe who see the value in it wished to help him see how well it would work. ...or that's my guess.
ORC_Tuhteth 09-03-06, 10:31 PM	After reading through this entire thread, I don't think anyone has brought up the idea of playing a fighter. Kidding! My suggestion: Why not try a swashbuckler (CW p.11) for this character concept? It's an unarmored, finesse-based class, and its abilities will work just fine with unarmed strike. (It even gets a class-based dodge bonus.)
Ralvuimego 09-03-06, 11:17 PM	After reading through this entire thread, I don't think anyone has brought up the idea of playing a fighter. Kidding! My suggestion: Why not try a swashbuckler (CW p.11) for this character concept? It's an unarmored, finesse-based class, and its abilities will work just fine with unarmed strike. (It even gets a class-based dodge bonus.) Hate to break it to you WizO, but Sualco isn't looking for finesse. He's looking for it's ugly step brother from the dimension of exact opposites. He wants to play a big, brutish guy who swings a set of beef flanks that he calls arms. He wants to be king of the barroom brawl, 6"11, 310 lbs, picking up people and thowing them around like ragdolls.:D
Legdiwena 09-03-06, 11:23 PM	modified drunken master?
Ralvuimego 09-03-06, 11:59 PM	Alright, aside from the fluff and some serious playtesting, my version of the Brawler class is done (I call it the Bruiser). I'll get to playtesting it ASAP, and post a thread about it in the Classes and PRCs board. The Bruiser (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9984202#post9984202) This class looks a lot like the barbarian, I know, but that's because their concepts are close in relation and I couldn't think of a way (Or honestly, a reason) to differentiate them that greatly.
FeceMan 09-04-06, 12:25 AM	The reason the suggestions to take fighter continue is becasue of the half interested, indifferent way what's his face dismissed it. This manner of dismissal suggested a total and complete lack of thought on the subject, and thsoe who see the value in it wished to help him see how well it would work. ...or that's my guess. You know, I swear the mods are deleting my posts. And for no good reason, either. I'm fairly sure that the reason Sulaco dismissed it is because he clearly stated that he didn't want to take a standard fighter--hence my variant suggestion--because, quite frankly, the monk is the only one who can do unarmed combat in D&D. Oh, sure, you COULD get awesome gauntlets of +5 pwness, but...yeah...not quite the same. Retards need to stop saying "nuurh, take straight fighter, I'm stupid and not reading what Sulaco wrote".
Melpomene 09-04-06, 12:26 AM	As mentioned, d20 modern and other suppliments (Starwars d20, BESM d20, and Farscape d20 jump to mind right away) have martial arts feat trees. These will enable any class to fight unarmed with the best of them. Secondly, the Battle Dancer from the Dragon Compendium is an option. Runesworn from Warcraft d20 might also do the trick... Lastly, if your starting level permits, you could pick a race with a natural slam attack. Beat people to death that way.
Dnjscott 09-04-06, 02:05 AM	Well, someone already mentioned this, but the Pugilist from Dragon was a good match. Battle Dancer from the Dragon Compendium is less mystical, though it still has some flashy abilities. IMHO, now that the humans taking Improved Natural Attack issue is mostly resolved and TOB introduced Greater Unarmed Strike, it's pretty easy to make one of them unarmed fighters dese days.
Roivas 09-04-06, 06:28 AM	If this is mentioned elsewhere, sorry for being a repeater. Dragon Compendium battle dancer, good BA, fights with bare hands, wears no armor, improved speed, and must be choatic. They can be anything from a flashy arrogant showoff to an arrogant showoff who is flashy. It's a good class though, check it out. And sorry again if I'm repeating, but I'm too lazy to read all the rest of the thread.
Endarrion 09-04-06, 03:21 PM	"He is a drunk and a lout. He was a city guard, briefly, but got the ouster for drunkeness. He spent time making ends meet as a tough, brawler, and thug-for-hire, bascially anything where he could put his fists (or knees, elbows, or forehead) to use and get enough cash together from more drink. Recent events have forced him to leave town - quickly - and he has found himself part of a band of ruffians (read: adventurers) in a small wilderness border-fort where the campaign begins. In many ways he is like Titus Pullo of HBO's Rome series, sans the long military service and discipline." I've read every post up to and including the one before mine. According to what Sulaco said in the above quote, the best fit is a fighter. I know, I know, it's been said umpteen million times, but it's true. Actually, a better fit might be the warrior NPC class as the charater seems more like a typical city guard and not a focused and trained fighter. Sulaco even says "sans the military service and discipline." I can see why Sulaco wants a brawler class. I always want to use a previously built class for characters I make up, but sometimes you just gotta mod what's already out there, or make up your own. What is a brawler anyway? It sounds like some dude who uses any and all weapons available (be they fists or swords). The monk needs his mysticism because, like someone already said, some big brawler guy punching a dragon in the shin is only going to break his hand. There needs to be some magic/mystic stuff behind the fighting. Even fighters, who don't possess inherent magical powers, use magical weapons to compensate. I would suggest changing the concept a bit to fit the brawler class you want. Lose the city guard part (which implies at least SOME actual training focusing on weaponry) or say he signed up for the city guard but got denied because he was drunk when he showed up. When he got denied he attacked the official with his bare hands even though the official was a trained warrior and had armor and weapons. I empathize but it looks like you're going to have to mod SOMETHING (be it fighter or monk or D20 Modern class) to get what you want.
Cochise 09-04-06, 03:56 PM	I did a class that should fit what your looking for. My english was (and still is) bad when i did it. Never tested it, only 1 on 1 combats vs basic classes at a few levels, it was balanced for these, but you'll have to get it approved by your DM. Its still in work, if you have any suggestions about it, just tell. Here it is : http://savefile.com/files/21101 (http://savefile.com/files/21101) Seems no one noticed my post the first time i replied, so here it is again. This class has absolutely no Ki things or magic abilities. It may need to get balanced. But im sure youll want to take a look at it. As I quoted, my english is bad so theres surely alot of english errors in it.
Sulaco 09-05-06, 12:33 PM	After reading through this entire thread, I don't think anyone has brought up the idea of playing a fighter. Kidding! My suggestion: Why not try a swashbuckler (CW p.11) for this character concept? It's an unarmored, finesse-based class, and its abilities will work just fine with unarmed strike. (It even gets a class-based dodge bonus.) Ah, now that sounds promising. I'll look into it. Thanks. :)
Sulaco 09-05-06, 12:36 PM	Hate to break it to you WizO, but Sualco isn't looking for finesse. He's looking for it's ugly step brother from the dimension of exact opposites. He wants to play a big, brutish guy who swings a set of beef flanks that he calls arms. He wants to be king of the barroom brawl, 6"11, 310 lbs, picking up people and thowing them around like ragdolls.:D I do? Huh, I'd've thought that if I wanted that I'd take a barbarian. Silly me. ;) What I want is a normal-sized guy who fights unarmed (and dirty) but without any formal training or spiritual overtones.
Sulaco 09-05-06, 12:37 PM	modified drunken master? Drunken master is a possible PrC he might pursue in the future, though adapting it into a 20-level basic class might be the easiest option of all.
OravennasBrother 09-05-06, 12:52 PM	I do? Huh, I'd've thought that if I wanted that I'd take a barbarian. Silly me. ;) What I want is a normal-sized guy who fights unarmed (and dirty) but without any formal training or spiritual overtones. Well, a normal sized guy who hits things with his fists and has no formal or spiritual training sounds, as someone mentioned above, a LOT like a warrior. Though if I were playig a brawler I would prefer a fighter, I commend you for sticking to your RP vision and going with the Warrior instead. What an elegant solution and one where no one can accuse you of power-gaming; you took an NPC class to get your vision. I'm impressed.
Morrowner 09-05-06, 04:34 PM	Regardless, Improved Unarmed Strike plus Monk's Belt and Monk's tatoo has always been a fantastic way to make an unarmed fighter, and Greater Unarmed Strike makes it even better. Aw yeah, 3d6 with your freaking fists and there are tons of ways to boost that like Greater Mighty Wallop, Enlarge, and Necklaces of Natural Attacks. I know you don't want to be a fighter but Melee Weapon Mastery in fists is awesome. I played that sans the Tome of Battle and PHB II feats and it was fantastic. Why yes, my character's fists deal 12d6 base damage. Choke on that DR!
FeceMan 09-05-06, 10:28 PM	Regardless, Improved Unarmed Strike plus Monk's Belt and Monk's tatoo has always been a fantastic way to make an unarmed fighter, and Greater Unarmed Strike makes it even better. Aw yeah, 3d6 with your freaking fists and there are tons of ways to boost that like Greater Mighty Wallop, Enlarge, and Necklaces of Natural Attacks. I know you don't want to be a fighter but Melee Weapon Mastery in fists is awesome. I played that sans the Tome of Battle and PHB II feats and it was fantastic. Why yes, my character's fists deal 12d6 base damage. Choke on that DR! What does greater unarmed strike do, exactly? Increase damage by a die size?
Legdiwena 09-05-06, 11:04 PM	what is greater unarmed strike from?
FeceMan 09-05-06, 11:28 PM	what is greater unarmed strike from? Tome of Battle, I believe.
Legdiwena 09-05-06, 11:31 PM	don't have that book, what does feat do?
trapspringer 09-06-06, 12:00 AM	It boosts your unarmed damage up by dice size at intervals as you level, but not on par with a monk... although it doesn't take into account size... does it?
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 12:08 AM	would it stack with monk unarmed damage?
Tenzhi 09-06-06, 12:20 AM	Superior Unarmed Attack is from Tome of Battle. It gives you scaling unarmed damage dice as you level (starting at 1d6 and working up to 2d6). It increases a monk's unarmed damage by making his unarmed damage as if he were four levels higher IIRC.
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 12:25 AM	does monk damage scale into epic or stop at 20?
Tenzhi 09-06-06, 12:28 AM	does monk damage scale into epic or stop at 20? As I recall, it maxes at 20. Overall you might be better off with a Monk's Belt. Of course, if it stacks with the feat that would be an even better thing.
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 12:29 AM	so that feat would be useless to an epic monk?
Tenzhi 09-06-06, 12:44 AM	so that feat would be useless to an epic monk? For the most part, I think an Epic Monk would be better off multiclassing.
Legdiwena 09-06-06, 12:57 AM	might do monk 20 then go into cleric and apostle of peace or the monk PrC from BoED