Break DC [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Break DC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Roscoe_Greenbottle
05-15-07, 02:50 PM I don't know where to put this, so here it is:
What's the break DC for a human skull? Like to just smash someones head.
Dazzer
05-15-07, 03:20 PM It requires, approximately, 1000 pounds of pressure to break an average human skull.

However, it requires 1200 pounds of pressure to break the average coconut.

I learned this from my martial arts master, who was training to using only his fingers be able to place 1500 pounds of pressure in a single location. He was using coconuts.

SO, long story short, look at the strength score it would take to effectively place 1000 pounds of pressure in one place. I would say lift off ground.

21 strength.

So, the DC to break a human skull that hasn't been degraded would be approximately DC 25.
Roscoe_Greenbottle
05-15-07, 03:32 PM Thank you very much
Evil DM Mk3
05-15-07, 03:47 PM But doing it in combat is not allowed, regardless of what logic you apply. Becasue that would clearly be a feat or even a PrC.
lukelightning
05-15-07, 03:53 PM Assuming you mean a dead/unattended skull, I'd say DC 15. Yeah, I know skulls are strong and all but they have joints and things. And if you're smashing it with a weapon I'd give it 1 hp with a hardness of 5.

Or just say "you do it..it works."

What was the circumstances that brought this up?
Roscoe_Greenbottle
05-15-07, 04:05 PM Not much brought it up, I was just wondering about it in a grapple
Evil DM Mk3
05-15-07, 04:07 PM That is never going to work, and no sane DM would allow it.
Kouk
05-15-07, 08:55 PM The system doesn't really support "skull crushing" as is.

I don't know whether those numbers are right or not about cracking skulls and coconuts, but you can easily break a coconut on the ground or a rock, or with a hammer. I don't think I have anywhere near 21 STR in real life, and I have broken coconuts without a jaws-of-life.

The best way to go about cracking things is with concentrated force (such as with that hammer) to a specific point. Even eggs are strong if you distribute the force equally along the top and bottom. It would be easier to grapple and use a small hammer or pick :D .

Once the integrity is destroyed, it will be much easier if you want to then use your hands.
wal9000
05-15-07, 10:10 PM Here's what I'd do:

Make an attack roll as normal for your unarmed attack. If you hit, proceed by saying "I wrap my fingers around his skull, attempting to crush it." Roll damage as normal. If you do enough damage to kill him, you have crushed his skull. If you don't do enough damage you just squeezed pretty hard, gave him a nasty bruise, and probably gave him a headache.

I'd definitely avoid making new "insta-kill" mechanics for it, since a level 20 fighter's skull is about as hard as a level 1 warrior's. Sure, he has a bit more skill, but it would be hard to argue that his head is 20 times as tough. Could turn into a dm's nightmare if allowed.
Roscoe_Greenbottle
05-16-07, 01:47 PM but I like it. OHHHhhhhh
Phrennzy
05-16-07, 04:33 PM Not much brought it up, I was just wondering about it in a grapple

This is the best punch line for this thread. I seriously am in love with you.

but I like it. OHHHhhhhh

I love you even more, now.
Roscoe_Greenbottle
05-16-07, 08:21 PM Thank you, thank you very much. I was being serious, and I still don;t see why not. *Stupid to over 'it's too powered' crappy people*
forsaken1111
05-16-07, 09:10 PM Thank you, thank you very much. I was being serious, and I still don;t see why not. *Stupid to over 'it's too powered' crappy people*

The guy with the my little pony avatar said he loves you and you thank him? :D

(No offense Phrennzy, just struck me as funny)
Zankue
05-16-07, 11:21 PM It's not that it's overpowered as much as it's nearly impossible to do during combat. Grappling requires both hand (yes you can only cast non somatic spells and even that requires concentration check) so u have to pin them, than using one hand crush their skull and hold down their other limbs, with only one hand. This would be pretty dam tough, just become a monk and ask your DM to give a description so that the next time you kill an enemy his skull is crushed. Sure you have no specific mechanic for it but it just wouldn't make sense.
Roscoe_Greenbottle
05-16-07, 11:32 PM But what if I just charge and un-armed guy, and instead of hitting him, just grab his headand start squezing? I choose to ignore the pitiful damage they inflict durring this. I wanna break someones head!
Evil DM Mk3
05-17-07, 05:52 AM The promblem is, apart form a flavoursome Coupe de grace, it is not logical (people move far too much) suported or fair. Besides how would you like it when a storm giant comes along and snaps your spine twix forfinger and thumb?

Besides there is a logical flaw in the agruments here. Is the preasure required to break a human skull for just the skull? Or is it including the added effects of the musles, fat, skin and other matter that boths cussions the effect and also distorts the effect.
forsaken1111
05-17-07, 06:05 AM But what if I just charge and un-armed guy, and instead of hitting him, just grab his headand start squezing? I choose to ignore the pitiful damage they inflict durring this. I wanna break someones head!

Okay, so the troll you're fighting decides to ignore the pitiful nonlethal damage your sword does and he makes the DC 45 break check for your head. You died, roll up a new character.

See how that might not be a good idea? Anything you can do, enemies can do too and if I were your DM I'd do it right back to you.
Radijs
05-17-07, 06:06 AM The problem is that such a mechanic opens the door to a lot of very bizarre situations.
Oh I got ninja-ed.
What forsaken said.
RevIron
05-17-07, 06:25 AM I think there are only two fair ways to do this:
1. It's a Coup-de-Grace with a Bludgeoning Weapon
2. The target is already dead (DC25)/destroyed if undead (DC15)
forsaken1111
05-17-07, 06:39 AM I think there are only two fair ways to do this:
1. It's a Coup-de-Grace with a Bludgeoning Weapon
2. The target is already dead (DC25)/destroyed if undead (DC15)

Could be the vorpal equivalent for bludgeoning weapons. Natural 20 = Crushed skull instakill
RobbyPants
05-17-07, 09:19 AM Thank you, thank you very much. I was being serious, and I still don;t see why not. *Stupid to over 'it's too powered' crappy people*
But what if I just charge and un-armed guy, and instead of hitting him, just grab his headand start squezing? I choose to ignore the pitiful damage they inflict durring this. I wanna break someones head!
That's why creatures have hit points. When you get him down to -10 or lower in your grapple, congratulations: you crushed his skull. Alternately, you could play the Reaping Mauler PrC, which can kill someone automatically three rounds after maintaining a pin.

Trust me. I tried to think up a "sane" neck-breaking feat, and really found out it's not that feasible. The three alternatives I was given (and would work quite well for your skull crush too):

Improved Unarmed Strike combined with a sneak attack (if it's enough to kill the target)
Improved Unarmed Strike combined with a death attack (assassin's ability)
Improved Unarmed Strike combined with a coup de grace

There you go! Skull crushing solved!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Roscoe_Greenbottle 05-15-07, 02:50 PM	I don't know where to put this, so here it is: What's the break DC for a human skull? Like to just smash someones head.
Dazzer 05-15-07, 03:20 PM	It requires, approximately, 1000 pounds of pressure to break an average human skull. However, it requires 1200 pounds of pressure to break the average coconut. I learned this from my martial arts master, who was training to using only his fingers be able to place 1500 pounds of pressure in a single location. He was using coconuts. SO, long story short, look at the strength score it would take to effectively place 1000 pounds of pressure in one place. I would say lift off ground. 21 strength. So, the DC to break a human skull that hasn't been degraded would be approximately DC 25.
Roscoe_Greenbottle 05-15-07, 03:32 PM	Thank you very much
Evil DM Mk3 05-15-07, 03:47 PM	But doing it in combat is not allowed, regardless of what logic you apply. Becasue that would clearly be a feat or even a PrC.
lukelightning 05-15-07, 03:53 PM	Assuming you mean a dead/unattended skull, I'd say DC 15. Yeah, I know skulls are strong and all but they have joints and things. And if you're smashing it with a weapon I'd give it 1 hp with a hardness of 5. Or just say "you do it..it works." What was the circumstances that brought this up?
Roscoe_Greenbottle 05-15-07, 04:05 PM	Not much brought it up, I was just wondering about it in a grapple
Evil DM Mk3 05-15-07, 04:07 PM	That is never going to work, and no sane DM would allow it.
Kouk 05-15-07, 08:55 PM	The system doesn't really support "skull crushing" as is. I don't know whether those numbers are right or not about cracking skulls and coconuts, but you can easily break a coconut on the ground or a rock, or with a hammer. I don't think I have anywhere near 21 STR in real life, and I have broken coconuts without a jaws-of-life. The best way to go about cracking things is with concentrated force (such as with that hammer) to a specific point. Even eggs are strong if you distribute the force equally along the top and bottom. It would be easier to grapple and use a small hammer or pick :D . Once the integrity is destroyed, it will be much easier if you want to then use your hands.
wal9000 05-15-07, 10:10 PM	Here's what I'd do: Make an attack roll as normal for your unarmed attack. If you hit, proceed by saying "I wrap my fingers around his skull, attempting to crush it." Roll damage as normal. If you do enough damage to kill him, you have crushed his skull. If you don't do enough damage you just squeezed pretty hard, gave him a nasty bruise, and probably gave him a headache. I'd definitely avoid making new "insta-kill" mechanics for it, since a level 20 fighter's skull is about as hard as a level 1 warrior's. Sure, he has a bit more skill, but it would be hard to argue that his head is 20 times as tough. Could turn into a dm's nightmare if allowed.
Roscoe_Greenbottle 05-16-07, 01:47 PM	but I like it. OHHHhhhhh
Phrennzy 05-16-07, 04:33 PM	Not much brought it up, I was just wondering about it in a grapple This is the best punch line for this thread. I seriously am in love with you. but I like it. OHHHhhhhh I love you even more, now.
Roscoe_Greenbottle 05-16-07, 08:21 PM	Thank you, thank you very much. I was being serious, and I still don;t see why not. Stupid to over 'it's too powered' crappy people
forsaken1111 05-16-07, 09:10 PM	Thank you, thank you very much. I was being serious, and I still don;t see why not. Stupid to over 'it's too powered' crappy people The guy with the my little pony avatar said he loves you and you thank him? :D (No offense Phrennzy, just struck me as funny)
Zankue 05-16-07, 11:21 PM	It's not that it's overpowered as much as it's nearly impossible to do during combat. Grappling requires both hand (yes you can only cast non somatic spells and even that requires concentration check) so u have to pin them, than using one hand crush their skull and hold down their other limbs, with only one hand. This would be pretty dam tough, just become a monk and ask your DM to give a description so that the next time you kill an enemy his skull is crushed. Sure you have no specific mechanic for it but it just wouldn't make sense.
Roscoe_Greenbottle 05-16-07, 11:32 PM	But what if I just charge and un-armed guy, and instead of hitting him, just grab his headand start squezing? I choose to ignore the pitiful damage they inflict durring this. I wanna break someones head!
Evil DM Mk3 05-17-07, 05:52 AM	The promblem is, apart form a flavoursome Coupe de grace, it is not logical (people move far too much) suported or fair. Besides how would you like it when a storm giant comes along and snaps your spine twix forfinger and thumb? Besides there is a logical flaw in the agruments here. Is the preasure required to break a human skull for just the skull? Or is it including the added effects of the musles, fat, skin and other matter that boths cussions the effect and also distorts the effect.
forsaken1111 05-17-07, 06:05 AM	But what if I just charge and un-armed guy, and instead of hitting him, just grab his headand start squezing? I choose to ignore the pitiful damage they inflict durring this. I wanna break someones head! Okay, so the troll you're fighting decides to ignore the pitiful nonlethal damage your sword does and he makes the DC 45 break check for your head. You died, roll up a new character. See how that might not be a good idea? Anything you can do, enemies can do too and if I were your DM I'd do it right back to you.
Radijs 05-17-07, 06:06 AM	The problem is that such a mechanic opens the door to a lot of very bizarre situations. Oh I got ninja-ed. What forsaken said.
RevIron 05-17-07, 06:25 AM	I think there are only two fair ways to do this: 1. It's a Coup-de-Grace with a Bludgeoning Weapon 2. The target is already dead (DC25)/destroyed if undead (DC15)
forsaken1111 05-17-07, 06:39 AM	I think there are only two fair ways to do this: 1. It's a Coup-de-Grace with a Bludgeoning Weapon 2. The target is already dead (DC25)/destroyed if undead (DC15) Could be the vorpal equivalent for bludgeoning weapons. Natural 20 = Crushed skull instakill
RobbyPants 05-17-07, 09:19 AM	Thank you, thank you very much. I was being serious, and I still don;t see why not. Stupid to over 'it's too powered' crappy people But what if I just charge and un-armed guy, and instead of hitting him, just grab his headand start squezing? I choose to ignore the pitiful damage they inflict durring this. I wanna break someones head! That's why creatures have hit points. When you get him down to -10 or lower in your grapple, congratulations: you crushed his skull. Alternately, you could play the Reaping Mauler PrC, which can kill someone automatically three rounds after maintaining a pin. Trust me. I tried to think up a "sane" neck-breaking feat, and really found out it's not that feasible. The three alternatives I was given (and would work quite well for your skull crush too): Improved Unarmed Strike combined with a sneak attack (if it's enough to kill the target) Improved Unarmed Strike combined with a death attack (assassin's ability) Improved Unarmed Strike combined with a coup de grace There you go! Skull crushing solved!