Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 07-27-05, 04:38 PM	Had an e-mail from a friend with an interesting PC problem (and, IMO, a really mean DM): She is playing a 5th level TN gnome wizard; the party has in it a human ranger, elf barbarian, and half-orc cleric of Kord. They're a non-evil party so they pretty much trust each other. On to the problem... "So last time we played, we were out in the middle of nowhere (it took us 6 weeks on horses and one pony to get there) to look for this enchanted crystal, created long ago by a dragon (who is long-dead, probably at least). I rolled well for Knowledge Arcana and Gather Infermation and my character thinks it could be something that works a lot like a rod or staff of some sort. Anyway, we finally reached this dragon's lair, and we found out it had been occupied by a tribe of bugbears. "We waited until it was mid-afternoon, and the bugbears seemed to be having a siesta or something, and went to kill the two guards at the entrance to the cave, which we hoped we were going to do quickly because otherwise they would raise the alarm. So I cast invisibility on the barb and cleric and they snuck up 10 feet away from the guards, and the ranger and me hid in the trees about 30 feet away, and we jumped them, me with spells and the ranger with arrows and the barb and cleric with melee weapons. It should have been a good plan. We rolled really low, though. One guard got killed right away by the barbarian but the other one didn't get hurt at all, because I missed my scorching ray touch attack and the ranger missed too. I really should have used true strike. "Anyway, the second guard ran (and took two AoO's and we missed on both of them) and we saw him disappear into the cave. So we all headed on into the cave, and the barbarian who had been looking after the guard saw him disappear into this niche thingy in the wall. "So we ran into the cave, first the barb and cleric and then me, with the ranger after; but the guard had triggered some sort of lever, and I had to make a reflex save against the iron door which came slamming down on me. Of course being a wizard, I failed the save and the trap took me down to 0 HP, and I got stuck under the door, half in and half out. "The barbarian went into a rage and charged the bugbear, and pretty much took him apart; and then they lifted the door off me, and the cleric and some potions healed me. The problem was that I couldn't feel my legs, because the trap had broken my back. "I had to spend the rest of the session riding around in this sling that the cleric made, and he carried me (which my character doesn't like because the cleric is a half orc and always seems to smell sweaty). I had to make concentration checks to cast my spells (I made them pretty easily). "I think the Dm had the trap hit me on purpose, because he knew I could still cast spells with a broken back (well, that's healed now but the nerves are still damaged, so I can't walk). And of course once we get back to town (but like I said it's six weeks to ride) I can have a regeneration or heal or something cast on me. "But until then my character really doesn't like riding around with this sweaty half orc. Who would? So I want to find some way that a 5th level wizard can get some sort of independent mobility. Maybe magic, or something someone could craft (we don't have any craft skills). Or an animal (I don't have any ride skill though, and if I fell off my pony during battle, or the pony got killed, it could be dangerous). Can you give me some advise?" I'm stumped... any ideas?
DarkWarriorKarg 07-27-05, 05:01 PM	1) Phantom Steed 2) Get another DM
Solamar 07-27-05, 05:22 PM	Thats rough, have you thought of useing a modified version of tensors(spelling?) floating disk. I don't know about your DM but mine lets wizards research new spells/modify existing ones.
OamuTheMonk 07-27-05, 05:24 PM	"I think the Dm had the trap hit me on purpose, because he knew I could still cast spells with a broken back (well, that's healed now but the nerves are still damaged, so I can't walk). And of course once we get back to town (but like I said it's six weeks to ride) I can have a regeneration or heal or something cast on me. Emphasis mine. Healing magic heals damage--even nerve damage. Is it a curse or spell? No. Did you lose a limb? No. Did you have Strength drained to zero? No. Once the Hit points that were lost in the attack (in this case, the door's attack) are restored by healing magic (even a tiny potion of cure light wounds), then the injury is healed. There is no such thing as nerve damage in D&D, no rules exist to legislate it's use, and only an assclown DM would houserule something like magic-healing-resistant nerve damage into being. Next session, ask the DM for a hard copy of all 'house rules regarding injury and combat' that he has implemented in his game. After all (you'll rightly reason), it's not fair if all the players don't know the rules of the game they're playing. When the DM gets all stuttery and defensive (he will), ask him point blank if he has a hard copy of his house rules, or does he just make things up as he goes along (he does). About this time, a rock will fall on your character. While the rest of the party finishes the session, look around the DMs house for stuff you could steal, or alternately (if you are chaotic good), hide in the fishtank. Like his car keys. As to mobility, you're stuck. The DMs not playing by the rules, thus, no rules can help you. You have my deepest sympathy, Callista's unnamed friend.
Phrennzy 07-27-05, 05:39 PM	Your DM is a dick. I don't believe I have ever used that term around here. Broken back. B.S. But you went along with it - good on you. But he still says you can't cast due to nerve damage. Dick. I would refuse to go anywhere until healed. Running around with 'nerve damage' or a 'broken back' will just get you killed, and is TOTALLY unrealistic. People with a broken back - or nerve damage so severe it hampers their ability to function properly - don't go out exploring and fighting. They rest. Do the same. Rest. Ask the party to take you into town and rest, get healed, whatever. Adventuring now is beyond ridiculous. Edit: All of that should be directed to your friend, not you, Callista. Heck, you can cut and paste it into an email for her.
OamuTheMonk 07-27-05, 08:09 PM	Your DM is a dick. I don't believe I have ever used that term around here. Broken back. B.S. But you went along with it - good on you. But he still says you can't cast due to nerve damage. Dick. Phrennzy is way more reasonable and even-tempered than I am, and look, the situation made him go all potty-mouth! Clearly the DM is a dick.
psionichamster 07-27-05, 08:32 PM	well, i can see this going 2 ways the DM is trying to introduce a little personal growth/challenge the character time for your PC or he's a dick either way, the RAW are clear on this. magic healing heals all damage, short of the descriptions in the spells themselves...(ie, CLW does not heal ability damage, resurrection can't give you back that lost limb, etc) he's using a variant rule, probably to "ratchet up the realism" or "increase tension" or something similar. in short, he's breaking the RAW, hoping to achieve a "better" effect with his new rule of imposing semi-realistic physics in the game. so, basically, you have 2 choices. 1: go along with the ride, and work around your new disability. obviously, this is now the time to take the 6 week trek back to town, get a cleric to restore/regenerate/etc. you, and proceed with another try (or not, serves him right) 2: refuse to allow this to happen. since it is his game, you have to try to reason with the DM about his new, non-RAW interpretation of injury and death, or walk from the game. good luck, namaste' the hamster
journeyman777 07-27-05, 08:34 PM	Cast tensor's floating disc and have your familiar pull you around for a while. It isn't perfect, but it works. Also, good on you for going along with an interesting plot twist and not being a complete rules lawyer about it. Next time you research a spell, use a wish, or do anything else subject to DM approval the DM will likely remember your kindness and return it. @Everone calling the DM mean names Resorting to name calling just proves that you have nothing useful to say. If you have nothing useful to say, than why are you talking? If the DM wants to include Profession(Chiropractor) in his game, what is your problem with that? Doing this to a melee class would be seriously unbalancing, but the wizard can still cast his spells. Above all else, this is a temporary problem. He'll be fixed up as soon as they get back to town. So please quit flaming and try to post more useful suggestions, okay?
^Graff_EpsilonIX 07-27-05, 09:20 PM	Specific debiliating injuries only enhance roleplaying. Roleplay it out, or get a riding rabbit.
Nuntius128 07-27-05, 09:21 PM	Phrennzy is way more reasonable and even-tempered than I am, and look, the situation made him go all potty-mouth! Clearly the DM is a dick. Agreed on that. Very well put, Phrennzy, I agree completely. Here, Callista, borrow my quiver, its full of +5 Arrows of DM Slaying. :D
LCD2YOU 07-27-05, 09:26 PM	journeyman777 I usually agree with your posts. Heck, I am generally on the side of the DM. In this particular case, the DM is being, er, stubborn. Unless there is another reason for the nerve damage (can you say Vile damage? I thought you could) then Phrenzy is correct. I hope that I am wrong on about the DM. But it doesn't look that way. See, I have found most of Callista's posts of good quality and thoughtful. She(?) I hasn't given me a reason to doubt her(?) posts.
danielinthewolvesden 07-27-05, 10:02 PM	I agree with Phrennzy. Besides- there is no way in the rules you can get a "broken back... with permanent nerve damage". the rules are set up to have a list of so many 'conditions" each of which can be healed/negated by a certain spell/ability/etc. At 5th level playing, there should be a spell of no more than 5th level that cures this. No such spell? No such condition. After explaining this to the DM, and asking for a reasonable way out- if he says 'no" the answer should be "So long, and thanks for all the chips!". :P
ShadowDragon8685 07-27-05, 10:10 PM	Shoot your DM. In the face. With. A. Hammer. :) GAWDS it feels good to pull that out again. *mails Callista a +2 Hammergun of DM BAne* Give your friend this.
journeyman777 07-27-05, 10:21 PM	Only the DM knows the full story here. If this is just a story twist meant to last for one adventure, than it makes for an interesting situation. I seriously doubt that the DM just decided to cripple a PC for any substantial amount of time. If he permanently crippled a him without discussing it first, than the guy has needs to spend some more time as a player to renew his sense of perspective. Until the party gets back to town, we can't know one way or the other. So why insult someone who is just trying to provide some entertainment for his friends? Besides- there is no way in the rules you can get a "broken back... with permanent nerve damage". the rules are set up to have a list of so many 'conditions" each of which can be healed/negated by a certain spell/ability/etc. At 5th level playing, there should be a spell of no more than 5th level that cures this. No such spell? No such condition.Agreed. However, not every DM plays raw, nor does every player. I trust that the DM has come up with an appropriate countermeasure for "nerve damage". If nothing else, the cleric should pray about it. The DM may have already added the appropriate spell to the list and was looking for a good way to intoduce it to the group.
OamuTheMonk 07-27-05, 10:50 PM	However, not every DM plays raw, nor does every player. Which is why I suggested in my first post that Callista's "friend" (We know it's really you, Callista!) ask the DM for a hard copy of the house rules the DM has implemented into the campaign. It's not fair to be playing a game and have the Ref change the rules halfway through. Doing that would be something a dick might do...although I originally said assclown. Phrennzy's just got higher CHA.
OamuTheMonk 07-27-05, 10:54 PM	If he permanently crippled a him without discussing it first, than the guy has needs to spend some more time as a player to renew his sense of perspective. I had to read this sentence five times before I understood it, but I think I actually agree.
obrysii 07-27-05, 11:02 PM	This is actually a really good oppurtunity to role play the character at his or her utmost weakest...while not being in immedate damage of death. They can flesh out their vulnerabilities, and it actually makes the party think more. They can't just abandon their friend, and so it enhances party interaction. Clearly, there must be an NPC capable of casting Regenerate at the town they'll be going to.
OamuTheMonk 07-27-05, 11:31 PM	I know, I know, I'm quoting myself. It's gauche, but I'm lazy. Once the Hit points that were lost in the attack (in this case, the door's attack) are restored by healing magic (even a tiny potion of cure light wounds), then the injury is healed. There is no such thing as nerve damage in D&D, no rules exist to legislate it's use, and only an assclown DM would houserule something like magic-healing-resistant nerve damage into being. Next session, ask the DM for a hard copy of all 'house rules regarding injury and combat' that he has implemented in his game. After all (you'll rightly reason), it's not fair if all the players don't know the rules of the game they're playing. When the DM gets all stuttery and defensive (he will), ask him point blank if he has a hard copy of his house rules, or does he just make things up as he goes along (he does). A DM needs to establish house rules before the campaign begins, or at a bare minimum, well before a situation in which they could apply. I feel like this is the real problem, and it stands repeating. All of these other arguments about story twists and roleplaying enhancement are perfectly valid--as long as everyone is playing by the same set of rules. If the character, had say, died upon reaching zero HP, due to the DM feeling that a 'story twist' was in order, no one would be arguing that he was right to deviate from the RAW without telling his players beforehand. They would be calling him a dick. Same situation, different outcome.
Ni! 07-28-05, 12:46 AM	Phrenzy already said it. That DM is a jerk. Cure X wounds heals ALL physical damage (short of ability damage and lost limbs). If he changed that he shoud GIVE YOU SOME FREAKIN WARNING!
Abyssal Stalker 07-28-05, 01:30 AM	If the DM isn't abusing the situation and teasing you, Callista, I think the situation is OK. I guess the main thing here is your opinion. Do you feel that the DM created the situation to make the game more interesting? I would like to get into a game like this, it would really be a challenge to RP it right! You can still use your main abilities, allthough you are physically challenged. On the subject of cure spells... If everything could be fixed by cure light wounds, then why does the regeneration spell exist? There are no rules for loosing limbs either. Regeneration is totally useless. And for the movement problem, you can always use some movement spells or make the tank of the party to carry you. A gnome wizard riding on the back of the elf barbarian to battle, shooting magic missiles, that would be something! :)
journeyman777 07-28-05, 01:58 AM	If the character, had say, died upon reaching zero HP, due to the DM feeling that a 'story twist' was in order, no one would be arguing that he was right to deviate from the RAW without telling his players beforehand. They would be calling him a dick. Same situation, different outcome.I must be a really trusting soul then, because I would actually wait a little while to see if a True Res was coming my way. Besides, the situations are totally different. The gimped wizard can still cast spells and have some very interesting roleplay with the party. A dead character can't do anything, including interesting roleplay. So, the only way your example would be like the situation at hand, is if the dead character got to be a ghost for the rest of the adventure. I certainly wouldn't be calling the DM names if he made me a ghost for a little while, would you?
jokotoko 07-28-05, 02:28 AM	Hmm..I am on the side of the "DM is a dick" camp here. This seems like on of those futile attempts to include more "realism" into injuries. If the DM wants to play with variant rules for damage and such, fine, but he has to specify this before the campaign starts. If he didn't, and still disallows healing magic to cure this injury, he's a dick in my book.
ajmastrean 07-28-05, 10:19 AM	uh... the OP did post this (emphasis mine): "I think the Dm had the trap hit me on purpose, because he knew I could still cast spells with a broken back... So, don't rail on the DM... he still let Wizard perform his basic function. It seems like you guys just assumed the first post hating on the DM was 100% correct (Phrennzy's, I think... albeit an honest mistake). Despite all the RAW problems, there were plenty of cool suggestions to handle the problem... go with the modified Tenser's Floating Disk or stick with the Cleric and use Prestidigitate to make him smell good.
Witchblade 07-28-05, 10:38 AM	Temporary: Fly. Gaseous Form. Or you could become a gnome frog and buy a Wand of Jump, earns you style points. :P
Phrennzy 07-28-05, 11:41 AM	Okay - to clarify. While I have a bit of a problem with a broken back, I can allow for that to be a roleplay problem, resolved by some healing. But the healing spells apparently didn't heal the 'nerve damage'. That's where I call foul. This is what this little play says to me: DM: "Your back is broken from the steel door." (Okay, now he'll have to make concentration checks to cast, and they'll have a hard time moving him around. It'll be a new obstacle, and some roleplay opportunities.) Wizard: "Ow." Cleric: "I heal him. " DM: (Uh oh. I didn't think of healing. Hmm. How can I keep him debilitated because I am fixated on him having to deal with the problems I already dreamed up....Hmmm...Oh!) "Nerve damage." That's where I call 'dick'. If the player's come up with a plausible reason to an obstacle, you can't just keep that obstacle in front of them because you think it's cool. Adventuring with a partially gimped wizard is suicidal. Since returning to town isn't a possibility (six weeks) the wizard is going to have to rely on a couple of down days while the cleric uses Cure after Cure on him, along with heal checks.
sfubear 07-28-05, 12:11 PM	I'd say that your DM is the beat nuts, but i say go with it, see where it leads to, it may not be RAW but most good DMs include something like that to test your RP abilities or to add a hook, plus it isn't that bad, I was in a game once and the DM invinted an epic spell that took 8 people to cast called "dark wish", and it could do anything, the group of wizards wished something stupid like all things that could hurt them would stop working, well all the weapons in the world turned to ash and blew away in the wind, I was playing a Barb, so it super sucked, he would try to pick up sticks and use them as clubs and the would turn to ash when i swung it at people, that that is some BS, right? the rest of the game was all of the spell casters rocking everything, and my character sitting on his thumb (not really) for lack of something better to do. At least you can still fight and talk and you don't have the words child molester burned into your bare chest (part of the spell go rid of armor too and the rest is a long story) running around doing about 7 points tops of nonlethal damage to everything. GO with the flow Vile Damage maybe be the problem
Twisted Puppy 07-28-05, 01:12 PM	"So we ran into the cave, first the barb and cleric and then me, with the ranger after; but the guard had triggered some sort of lever, and I had to make a reflex save against the iron door which came slamming down on me. Of course being a wizard, I failed the save and the trap took me down to 0 HP, and I got stuck under the door, half in and half out. "The barbarian went into a rage and charged the bugbear, and pretty much took him apart; and then they lifted the door off me, and the cleric and some potions healed me. The problem was that I couldn't feel my legs, because the trap had broken my back. "I had to spend the rest of the session riding around in this sling that the cleric made, and he carried me (which my character doesn't like because the cleric is a half orc and always seems to smell sweaty). I had to make concentration checks to cast my spells (I made them pretty easily). "I think the Dm had the trap hit me on purpose, because he knew I could still cast spells with a broken back (well, that's healed now but the nerves are still damaged, so I can't walk). And of course once we get back to town (but like I said it's six weeks to ride) I can have a regeneration or heal or something cast on me. "But until then my character really doesn't like riding around with this sweaty half orc. Who would? So I want to find some way that a 5th level wizard can get some sort of independent mobility. Maybe magic, or something someone could craft (we don't have any craft skills). Or an animal (I don't have any ride skill though, and if I fell off my pony during battle, or the pony got killed, it could be dangerous). Can you give me some advise?" I'm stumped... any ideas? I can't help but notice that the player whose character is the focus of discussion is looking for a solution to her condition that is workable given the situation as stated. Not complaining that the rules say she should be fine after the healing spells, or suggesting physical violence, theft, or vandalism against the DM. It seems here the DM is presenting the group with a challenge, and they are trying to deal with it. (Personally, I think a fair bit of roleplay xp would be in order after they make it through.) Rather than deal with the issue with metagame thinking: "The rules say X", why not have the cleric make a healing or knowledge check to see if he can determine why the spells did not restore them to health. I seem to remember that heal spells do not regenerate severed limbs; in that case it would not be a great stretch for the DM to rule that the same spells do not heal severed nerves. Or, sfubear mentioned, Vile Damage may be involved. Maybe one of the characters has a craft skill to make some kind of harness. The ranger might be able to persuade an animal (wolf maybe?) to carry the wizard. It's not like you need anything large to do the job. At 5th level playing, there should be a spell of no more than 5th level that cures this. No such spell? No such condition. Actually, that is not the given you seem to believe. IIRC, a cockatrice is a CR 3 creature. If it petrifies you, that requires a Stone to Flesh spell to correct, which is a 7th or 8th level spell. Are you saying "no 3rd level spell that fixes it, no petrifying gaze for a cockatrice?" No, you obviously know better. Not everything that happens to the party will have a solution that is readily available to the party. That's why they are called challenges. To me, the DM in question saw an opportunity to give the players an interesting situation and ran with it. I also note that many of those criticizing him/her on this thread are often complaining about their own DM's lack of creativity. Kudos to the player who had the question for running with what they were given. I'd be very interested in learning how it plays out.
Starmage21 07-28-05, 01:19 PM	heh if he wanted to be that realistic, is he making you take more damage when arrows are removed? If healing magic cant push arrows out of your flesh and mend broken bones, then why bother. Just whip out the leeches and screw the clerics. Your DM = GIANT PURPLE WANG
Ut-Napishtim 07-28-05, 03:51 PM	Heh heh, if I were playing the Barbarian next time we faced the BBEG I'd be saying: I hit him in the back with my axe for 38 points. Oooh, NERVE DAMAGE! NERVE DAMAGE! He's now crippled. Somehow I doubt that the DM would allow that though. DM's have control over so many things in the game this kind of stuff just isn't neccesary.
OamuTheMonk 07-28-05, 07:51 PM	I can't help but notice that the player whose character is the focus of discussion is looking for a solution to her condition that is workable given the situation as stated. Not complaining that the rules say she should be fine after the healing spells, or suggesting physical violence, theft, or vandalism against the DM. In all fairness, I was kidding about the theft. Not so much the vandalism, though... It seems here the DM is presenting the group with a challenge, and they are trying to deal with it. (Personally, I think a fair bit of roleplay xp would be in order after they make it through.) Rather than deal with the issue with metagame thinking: "The rules say X", why not have the cleric make a healing or knowledge check to see if he can determine why the spells did not restore them to health. Good Idea...A Heal check makes sense--I doubt the DM will have an answer prepared though..." I told you, it's nerve damage!" I seem to remember that heal spells do not regenerate severed limbs; in that case it would not be a great stretch for the DM to rule that the same spells do not heal severed nerves. I really don't think the DM should be allowed to make a called shot on nerves. Opens up even more commotion, as Ut-Nahasapeemapetilon mentioned. Or, sfubear mentioned, Vile Damage may be involved. That would be one Evil-ass door. Anyone remember Treasure of Tarmin?
Ni! 07-28-05, 09:41 PM	If it were me, I would pull exactly the same BS when ever you faight something else. PC: I attack the kobold and cut his arms DM: The cleric heals him PC: Ok, but he can't move his arms, he has nerve damage. Or PC: I hit the BBEG in the head DM: The cleric heals him PC: Ok, but he takes permenant INT damage because of the damage to his brain The list goes on and on. The DM realy doesn't look like he thought this through.
Twisted Puppy 07-29-05, 12:27 AM	Good Idea...A Heal check makes sense--I doubt the DM will have an answer prepared though..." I told you, it's nerve damage!" He may or may not, but God forbid that anyone on these boards give the DM in question the benefit of a doubt. I really don't think the DM should be allowed to make a called shot on nerves. I see your point on the nerve damage. With back injury as decribed in the OP, I think it would be something that could happen. Maybe a fort save or a percentage chance, or some combination. Maybe even have it in the trap description. I do stand by my original opinion that the DM used some creative thought and created an interesting roleplay situation. Okay, he went off the beaten path. So what? Everyday the boards have a thread complaining about how 3.5 is too much number crunching and not enough roleplay. If you think there really is a problem, that's when you talk to the DM about it between sessions. Calmly, rationally, and CONSTRUCTIVELY. Unless, of course, you think you have too many friends and think it's a good idea to get rid of one.
DeathMagus 07-29-05, 01:59 AM	In my not so humble opinion, the DM is not being an ass. A door falling on you could very well crush your back and cause nerve damage. This is where we pull out the old "common sense" rule. 1. It's realistic 2. It's not unbalancing 3. Why not? Granted, there should have been a fort save involved, but even if there were, do you think a Wizard would pass it? Inherently, there's nothing wrong with houseruling that a broken spine/nervous system needs regen to cure. As has been pointed out before - there is no ruling on broken nerves, so it's the DM's duty to decide what type of damage that is, and what can heal it. In general, I rule that major broken bones, severed limbs, severe burns, broken nerves, and the like all require regen to cure. On the flip side, however, I also rule that those sorts of effects are not "normal" combat effects, so their application is very much controlled. Overall, it seems from the original post that the DM has a fairly good grasp of the rules and their applications. The trap did not seem impossible to avoid, just the result of poor rolls and Wizard saves. The DM's effect also doesn't limit the Wizard in his most important ability - spellcasting. All in all, an excellent oppurtunity to roleplay a temporary ailment. Yeah. Temporary. I know that the "1001 Things You Hate About Your DM" threads have imbittered everyone, but cut the DM some slack! Kudos to the creativity!
jokotoko 07-29-05, 03:24 AM	In my not so humble opinion, the DM is not being an ass. A door falling on you could very well crush your back and cause nerve damage. This is where we pull out the old "common sense" rule. 1. It's realistic 2. It's not unbalancing 3. Why not? Granted, there should have been a fort save involved, but even if there were, do you think a Wizard would pass it? Inherently, there's nothing wrong with houseruling that a broken spine/nervous system needs regen to cure. As has been pointed out before - there is no ruling on broken nerves, so it's the DM's duty to decide what type of damage that is, and what can heal it. I couldn't disagree more. A DM should list these kinds of house rules in advance. I might let it slip if the DM could show me the description of the trap (written in advance, mind you). If he cannot, he's just making this crap up on the post.
Phrennzy 07-29-05, 10:18 AM	I DM all the time. The party split up once, fighting the minotaur in the Caves of Chaos, and one lone dwarf fell down into one of the covered pits. The fall did a lot of damage in comparison to his hit points, so I ruled on the fly (to increase the drama) that his leg was broken. The player went with it, and eventually was rescued from the pit. The cleric healed him, and that was it. No reduction in Dex or AC, no concentration checks to walk - he was healed. That's my prob with it. However, as someone else pointed out, the OP apparently doesn't seem to mind, and is asking for things that a 5th level mage can do. If you have access to the 'mount' spell, you could ride that bad boy for 10 hours. If it's in a dungeon, ask if you can summon it as a donkey. Of course, the down side here is that you have to make ride checks in combat. I would think a pair of crutches would help - and basic crutches (just a long stick with another stick atop it) are easy to make. This would alleviate pressure on your back as you walk. It might slow you down though. They shouldn't interfere in combat - I would state that you drop them at the start of combat and move on your own. You don't want to get tangled up when you are trying to take your 5' step.
Twisted Puppy 07-29-05, 05:14 PM	I couldn't disagree more. A DM should list these kinds of house rules in advance. I might let it slip if the DM could show me the description of the trap (written in advance, mind you). If he cannot, he's just making this crap up on the post. You might let it slip? News, fella: he is running the game, not you. Would you tolerate that from one of your players? That's the sort of "me vs the DM" mentality that ruins games. I know I wouldn't take it more than once. Don't like what the DM is doing? Offer to run yourself (and hope you are indeed better at it than he is.) How about trying to explain your objections to him in a friendly, constructive manner, maybe making helpful suggestions on how to incorporate what he's ruled into future events. This may shock you, but he might even agree with you, and decide you're right if you don't show your posterior. If people can't be adults about in-game disagreements, they should take their lollipops and woobies and go home. The DM and the other players will be glad.
Leewei 07-29-05, 05:45 PM	The player needs to get a concrete game mechanism from the DM behind what happened. (I'd also snidely thank the DM for the heroic fantasy of being a parapalegic midget.) It could be that a simple casting of Remove Paralysis can remove the effect. It may be that the nerve damage is temporary stat damage reducing Strength and Dexterity to 0. Rest and Lesser Restoration spells should patch you up if this is the case. If the DM is looking to be a bit more harsh, the stat damage could be permanent in nature and require multiple Restoration spells, Greater Restoration spells, or even a Heal to repair. Were I to DM that situation, I'd have the gnome make an initial Reflex save to reduce the HP/stat damage. As a general rule, I'd say that any trap is unlikely to cause permanent stat damage until the characters are all at least in their early teens. While the injury is realistic, it is not fair to the PCs due to the game mechanisms in place in the low end game.
OamuTheMonk 07-29-05, 07:03 PM	If people can't be adults about in-game disagreements, they should take their lollipops and woobies and go home. The DM and the other players will be glad. Why so insulting? It's not unreasonable for the DM to play by the same rules as everybody else (I do), and it's certainly not unreasonable to call somebody on their power-tripping house-rule-on-the-fly behavior. I think my suggestion (asking for a hard copy of any houserules present in the campaign) was both reasonable and constructive. For someone advocating peaceful cooperation, you seem to be crackin' out the generalizations and name-calling pretty early.
Soel Griffin 07-29-05, 08:17 PM	Honestly don't see why many are crying foul here. As another poster pointed out, healing spells do not heal every kind of damage. This sort of injury would seem to be in the realm of the Regeneration spell, and its the dm's job to make this sort of call. I do agree with Phrenzzy on one point, I would not have a character of mine adventure with a broken back. In this situation, the dm should expect this character to be convalescing. Now, if the dm did this to specifically target the player's character, and would not do this to any other character, then said dm is wrong.
Mandarbgrim 07-29-05, 11:37 PM	A paraplegic wizard isn't heroic...except...what is heroism but persistance in the face of daunting adversity? Or somesuch. If the DM tries to make this a permanent change..I would be ******. Otherwise it doesn't seem like there is much wrong with his call...and he could possibly have made it up to fudge some dice rolls to stop the player from being dead. It is a roleplaying game...anything not written in the rules, and even the stuff that is, is the DM's domain to make decisions on and use his best judgement to go with whatever is fair, realistic, or simply funny. I began writing a lot more that on second thought is not really needed. Mount and Tenser's Floating Disk are the only spells I can think of. Spell Research seems likely to be out of the question.
danielinthewolvesden 07-30-05, 03:59 AM	Actually, that is not the given you seem to believe. IIRC, a cockatrice is a CR 3 creature. If it petrifies you, that requires a Stone to Flesh spell to correct, which is a 7th or 8th level spell. Are you saying "no 3rd level spell that fixes it, no petrifying gaze for a cockatrice?" No, you obviously know better. Not everything that happens to the party will have a solution that is readily available to the party. That's why they are called challenges. "Break Enchantment". Altho not every challenge has to have to have a solution which is readily available to the party- the solution does have to be there somewhere. In this case, it isn't. It's a crock. In fact, it could be said the DM is cheating. There is no such "condition".
Soel Griffin 07-30-05, 04:11 AM	It's a crock. In fact, it could be said the DM is cheating. There is no such "condition". Sure there is. The dm made it up...
Twisted Puppy 07-30-05, 07:08 AM	Why so insulting? It's not unreasonable for the DM to play by the same rules as everybody else (I do), and it's certainly not unreasonable to call somebody on their power-tripping house-rule-on-the-fly behavior. I think my suggestion (asking for a hard copy of any houserules present in the campaign) was both reasonable and constructive. For someone advocating peaceful cooperation, you seem to be crackin' out the generalizations and name-calling pretty early. I think the "power-tripping house-rule-on-the fly" qualifies as name calling as well. As does "the DM is being a dick," "THE DM IS A PURPLE WANG," and other comments on this post. If the DM is doing this just to try to shaft the character instead of trying to present an interesting challenge, you'd be absolutely right. I'd say the same thing. But I don't know that, and neither does anyone else except the DM, so I'll give him the benefit of a doubt. The idea of having house rules listed in advance makes very good sense, but overlooks the fact that house rules are most often the result of unanticipated situations which the rules do not adequately cover. For what it's worth, I would be in complete agreement with you on this if the disability was something permanent. I also think that if the DM is going to use something like this again, he needs to quantify it somehow so that everyone understands how it works. "Break Enchantment". Altho not every challenge has to have to have a solution which is readily available to the party- the solution does have to be there somewhere. In this case, it isn't. It's a crock. In fact, it could be said the DM is cheating. There is no such "condition". Breack enchantment is not a 3rd level spell. Sure the solution has to be there somewhere,it just may require some effort and creative thinking by the party to get it. The DM improvising is not "cheating." It is his prerogative. If the DM really wants to shaft a PC, he doesn't need to go to the effort of making something up. It's readily doable from the RAW.
DeathMagus 07-30-05, 07:30 AM	The DM improvising is not "cheating." It is his prerogative. If the DM really wants to shaft a PC, he doesn't need to go to the effort of making something up. It's readily doable from the RAW. Very wise and very sig-able. :clap: :bow:
Ut-Napishtim 07-30-05, 01:11 PM	So where was this "nerve damage" in the RAW again? :thinks:
Callista 07-30-05, 02:30 PM	Well, of course there aren't any provisions for nerve damage. Or missing limbs, or broken bones, or a collapsed lung, or any number of injuries you can get easily enough in any battle. That's obvious: There aren't any called shots, so why should there be specific injuries? Simple answer: There aren't. Complicated answer: It's kind of annoying that way. Not anywhere near what would reduce my own enjoyment of the game at all, but it's still rather unrealistic. The thing is, D&D is supposed to provide an analogue of a world, rather than completely replicate it; but this particular DM, I guess, is more bothered about the lack of "realism" than I am. As for the DM being a dick... I dunno. He's new to the game, though; been playing only for a year. He doesn't seem to be the power-tripping sort, though. I think, in this case, he was trying for realism that the rules don't provide for. I'm not sure if he intends it to be permanent, though I would assume not. In any case, at level 5, it's not the Wizards that are too powerful... generally those lower levels still belong to fighter types. He did once have the barbarian break an arm after a fall, so there's a track record there... a normal Cure spell, plus a heal check to set the bone, put that right, though. I'm not sure what he's going to rule for this one. Asked about trap mechanics, and whether the DM had written down that the trap could do this... didn't get an answer; my friend hasn't talked to her DM since the last time they played. The exact effect of it on the character, by the way, was to reduce his movement speed to 5 ft as a full-round action (pulling himself around by his arms, I guess). I did ask about if he'd ever done this (arbitrarily declaring a random injury, that is) to a monster; and I was told that, yes, he had; apparently awhile ago the barbarian hit a goblin on the head (not a called shot, just a normal crit) and the DM had the goblin confusedly attack one of its own people. That was early on, though; and he hasn't done it since. Maybe it's just a case of that particular DM needing a more specific sort of house rule, where you can injure and be injured on specific body parts. Me, I don't see the point of it; describing the way the hits land (especially the one that takes you below 0 HP) should make up for the lack of actual mechanics for specific injuries. A collapsed lung or a head wound or a deep laceration... any one of those will take you below 0 HP; it's the way the DM describes it that makes the difference. You don't really need those sorts of mechanics; it makes things too complicated, really.
DeathMagus 07-30-05, 08:06 PM	So where was this "nerve damage" in the RAW again? :thinks: Gee. If everything that one does in D&D must be in the RAW, what's the point of these boards again? :thinks:
Ut-Napishtim 07-30-05, 09:34 PM	Gee. If everything that one does in D&D must be in the RAW, what's the point of these boards again? :thinks: To share opinions and ideas with other gamers in an effort to help improve everyone's enjoyment of the game. Like the notion that a DM cheating isn't beneficial for example.
OamuTheMonk 07-30-05, 11:44 PM	To share opinions and ideas with other gamers in an effort to help improve everyone's enjoyment of the game. Like the notion that a DM cheating isn't beneficial for example. I love it when someone else says it first. Makes me think I'm not insane. Thanks, Ut.
Master_of_Flames 07-30-05, 11:55 PM	if my dm ruled for 'realistic damage' then my character would not be able to use 50% of his major organs. darn warhammer wielding dueger. ouch...
mallemout 07-31-05, 03:21 AM	I would think a pair of crutches would help - and basic crutches (just a long stick with another stick atop it) are easy to make. This would alleviate pressure on your back as you walk. It might slow you down though. They shouldn't interfere in combat - I would state that you drop them at the start of combat and move on your own. You don't want to get tangled up when you are trying to take your 5' step. Hmmm, maybe I overlooked something but I thought the player had a broken back and didn't feel anything in his legs anymore. Than this would call for some nice balance checks I think, since the legs don't give any support whatsoever. Of course, I only had a few hours of sleep and just read through the whole text so it is quite possible that I missed something. Too bad someone else beat me to the advice of using prestidigitation to make the orc smell better. I mean, come on, that obviously is the worst part, not the broken back. You really need to get your priorities straight. ;) (to prevent disaster, yes I am joking)
DeathMagus 07-31-05, 07:00 AM	To share opinions and ideas with other gamers in an effort to help improve everyone's enjoyment of the game. Like the notion that a DM cheating isn't beneficial for example. True enough. But I suppose that this "only-if-it's-in-the-RAW" mindset means that no king in D&D can order a PC to be hanged or have their head cut off - since one involves braking a neck and the other involves a called shot to the neck. I guess the only acceptable executions in D&D are generic flogging w/ weapons or poison.
OamuTheMonk 07-31-05, 03:03 PM	True enough. But I suppose that this "only-if-it's-in-the-RAW" mindset means that no king in D&D can order a PC to be hanged or have their head cut off - since one involves braking a neck and the other involves a called shot to the neck. Beheading: Coup de Grace on a bound (helpless) character, with an oversized greataxe. Executioners have Improved Critical as a feat. Historically, many Executioners had to take two or three shots to sever a head, sooo... Hanging: A little more difficult, but it can be done by making the gallows into a trap, using the rules in the DMG. Bound (helpless) characters don't have a lot of options for bypassing such a thing. I guess the only acceptable executions in D&D are generic flogging w/ weapons or poison. Gerald, king of Generica: "I sentence you to be generically flogged, with whatever's handy, until dead. And then poisoned."
DeathMagus 07-31-05, 04:16 PM	Beheading: Coup de Grace on a bound (helpless) character, with an oversized greataxe. Executioners have Improved Critical as a feat. Historically, many Executioners had to take two or three shots to sever a head, sooo... Hanging: A little more difficult, but it can be done by making the gallows into a trap, using the rules in the DMG. Bound (helpless) characters don't have a lot of options for bypassing such a thing. Ok ok...I concede the point...though it was really for more illustrative purposes than as a specific example. Gerald, king of Generica: "I sentence you to be generically flogged, with whatever's handy, until dead. And then poisoned." LOL that's great! :clap: But, back to the OP: Healing magic heals damage--even nerve damage. Is it a curse or spell? No. Did you lose a limb? No. Did you have Strength drained to zero? No. Nice try Oamu - Read the spell descriptions again, please. Cure (Any) Wounds Conjuration (Healing) Level: (for CLW) Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1, Rgr 2 When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures XdY points of damage +Z point per caster level (maximum +N). Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage. Hmm...nothing about nerve damage...just hitpoints. Now let's look at Regeneration: Regenerate Conjuration (Healing) Level: Clr 7, Drd 9, Healing 7 The subject’s severed body members (fingers, toes, hands, feet, arms, legs, tails, or even heads of multiheaded creatures), broken bones, and ruined organs grow back. After the spell is cast, the physical regeneration is complete in 1 round if the severed members are present and touching the creature. It takes 2d10 rounds otherwise. Regenerate also cures 4d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +35), rids the subject of exhaustion and/or fatigue, and eliminates all nonlethal damage the subject has taken. It has no effect on nonliving creatures (including undead). It would appear from these spell descriptions that Cure (any) Wounds (which is the standard "healing" spell) does absolutely nothing for any of the more "sticky" conditions caused by damage, such as broken bones, smashed organs, BROKEN SPINES, etc... "But Deathmagus! The RAW don't allow for broken bones or crushed spines!" :rolleyes: Well...let's repeat here... Regenerate Conjuration (Healing) Level: Clr 7, Drd 9, Healing 7 The subject’s severed body members (fingers, toes, hands, feet, arms, legs, tails, or even heads of multiheaded creatures), broken bones, and ruined organs grow back. Why on earth would there be a spell specifically for fixing broken bones/spines and/or ruined organs...unless it was in the DM's prerogative to impose such conditions in the first place? Just one more thought... if you go back and reread the OP, nowhere does the OP mention that he felt an injustice was being done to him. Nor did he mention being ticked off at his DM. In fact, I could not detect any animosity at all! Now if the OP isn't mad at the DM, what right does everyone else have to be??
Ut-Napishtim 07-31-05, 05:08 PM	Beheading: Coup de Grace on a bound (helpless) character, with an oversized greataxe. Executioners have Improved Critical as a feat. Historically, many Executioners had to take two or three shots to sever a head, sooo... Hanging: A little more difficult, but it can be done by making the gallows into a trap, using the rules in the DMG. Bound (helpless) characters don't have a lot of options for bypassing such a thing. Aw man, I wanted to fight my own battle. I would use the suffocation rules for hanging though.
Corinthians 07-31-05, 05:53 PM	Honestly don't see why many are crying foul here. As another poster pointed out, healing spells do not heal every kind of damage. Which issue of Dragon did nerve damage show up in?
Corinthians 07-31-05, 05:57 PM	The idea of having house rules listed in advance makes very good sense, but overlooks the fact that house rules are most often the result of unanticipated situations which the rules do not adequately cover. Damage and curing are adequately covered.
Soel Griffin 08-01-05, 12:36 AM	Which issue of Dragon did nerve damage show up in? I don't read Dragon, as I find it nearly worthless. Try curing a removed limb with Cure Serious Wounds. Or Heal. It doesn't work. Nerve damage is most likely to be fixed by Regenerate. Course, if you find this to be too much for you, then don't use it. Damage and curing are adequately covered. Apparently not, or this thread wouldn't exist.
DeathMagus 08-01-05, 01:42 AM	I don't read Dragon, as I find it nearly worthless. Try curing a removed limb with Cure Serious Wounds. Or Heal. It doesn't work. Nerve damage is most likely to be fixed by Regenerate. Course, if you find this to be too much for you, then don't use it. Apparently not, or this thread wouldn't exist. Touché and... Touché again! It's good when people agree with you :P ...
jokotoko 08-01-05, 02:44 AM	You might let it slip? News, fella: he is running the game, not you. Would you tolerate that from one of your players? That's the sort of "me vs the DM" mentality that ruins games. I know I wouldn't take it more than once. Don't like what the DM is doing? Offer to run yourself (and hope you are indeed better at it than he is.) How about trying to explain your objections to him in a friendly, constructive manner, maybe making helpful suggestions on how to incorporate what he's ruled into future events. This may shock you, but he might even agree with you, and decide you're right if you don't show your posterior. If people can't be adults about in-game disagreements, they should take their lollipops and woobies and go home. The DM and the other players will be glad. Some news for you fella: He's not running the game, in our group we run the game together! No game without the DM, but no game without the players either. So you might say we play in the opposite of a "me vs. the DM" game. What I meant is that I might let it slip once before I would start a short discussion about it. So FYI we can solve in-game disagreements perfectly well. I still would, however, call a DM on a non-announced house rule. If you will please excuse me, I have to get back to my "lollipops and woobies".
braindead345 08-01-05, 02:54 AM	Heh heh, if I were playing the Barbarian next time we faced the BBEG I'd be saying: I hit him in the back with my axe for 38 points. Oooh, NERVE DAMAGE! NERVE DAMAGE! He's now crippled. Somehow I doubt that the DM would allow that though. DM's have control over so many things in the game this kind of stuff just isn't neccesary. Forget the barbarian, let the injured party do it. Shocking Grasp while touching the spine, quickly followed by a mace to the groin. Sounds like the DM is a med student and wanted to add some reality to a FANTASY game. No called shots means there is no way for the door to crush anybody's spine. The wizard could have taken all that damage running full tilt into a barred door. Also, given the approximate dimensions of the door and a gnome; that door would have either crushed the wizard's rib cage (and everything inside-heart, lungs, gall bladder,etc) or crushed the gnome's pelvis, kidneys, reproductive organs, large intestine, etc. Either way, the character should be dead or should be by next session. To make the DM rethink this, the player should refuse any charity from the other players' characters ("I can't ride on the cleric. I will get in his way during combat!"). The gnome might not be able to walk, but he can drag himself/herself through the dungeon at a rate of 5'/round. After one game session of the party moving s-l-o-w-l-y through the dungeon, I wouldn't be surprised if the DM gives the cleric a Scroll of Restoration or at least reveals his plans for the character.
Twisted Puppy 08-01-05, 09:28 AM	What I meant is that I might let it slip once before I would start a short discussion about it. So FYI we can solve in-game disagreements perfectly well. I still would, however, call a DM on a non-announced house rule. Like I said, if you can resolve these issues between sessions, or even during a break, good for you. Your group seems to have a good dynamic going. Maybe it would help if our posts (mine included) were made in the tone that we would use to our friend who is the DM or player. The guy/girl we can talk to rationally without losing tempers or getting personal. I do think some of the arguments against what the DM ruled are pretty convincing. If some of the objections were voiced to me, I'd either A) quantify the whole thing and make it something the players could agree with, B) make it clear that this is a one-shot deal that won't be tried again, since no one seemed to like it, or C) say fine, if everyone is really that upset over it, when the mage wakes up the next morning he can feel his legs. Let's get on with the game. I still think the DM, in this case, presented a very good challenge to the group. If he awards the party with XP for overcoming the challenge and good teamwork, I don't see a reason to be upset. As someone else said, overcoming adversity is what heroes are made of.
jokotoko 08-01-05, 10:34 AM	Maybe it would help if our posts (mine included) were made in the tone that we would use to our friend who is the DM or player. Agreed! I guess that when posting at boards such as this one, I have the tendency make statements that I would not make when dealing with people face-to-face, my apologies!
Leewei 08-01-05, 01:07 PM	Just to restate myself, Work with your DM on this one. Make sure the DM realizes that this is eliminating a lot of your fun as a player in the game. Get a concrete understanding from your DM as to what spells or effects in-game can heal your character. Personally, I'd argue the DM in the direction of stat drain or damage. The idea of this representing permanent Strength and Dexterity damage, and therefore being treatable with a Restoration spell seems to be the most workable solution in the game. If the DM is choosing to allow for trap effects that are not generic HP damage, such as broken bones, spinal damage and so on, it is quite reasonable for a player to expect some sort of list of known remedies, especially if that player's character has a well-developed Healing skill.
journeyman777 08-06-05, 04:56 PM	@ Callista Has your friend played some more sessions yet? It would be nice to know what suggestions (if any) were used and how things turned out.
DarknessEternal 08-07-05, 05:45 AM	Fall on a sword. Seriously, nothing straightens up a clumsy-DM faster than showing him you'd rather kill your character than keep playing it.
danielinthewolvesden 08-07-05, 01:47 PM	Fall on a sword. Seriously, nothing straightens up a clumsy-DM faster than showing him you'd rather kill your character than keep playing it. You don't have to do that. You can just say (and i would) "Well, my character has decided he is too much of a burden to the party, thus he is just going to stay in town and be a local consulting wizard. Ok, then, here is my new character....".
Ut-Napishtim 08-07-05, 06:14 PM	You don't have to do that. You can just say (and i would) "Well, my character has decided he is too much of a burden to the party, thus he is just going to stay in town and be a local consulting wizard. Ok, then, here is my new character....". Yeah, that's more realistic IMHO. Suicide is best reserved for when the character really has nothing left to lose and is at the end of her rope, otherwise it loses it's dramatic effect and comes off as being petty. Retiring from adventuring is more reasonable, and D&D towns are chock full of retired adventurers.