Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vacerious 08-29-05, 06:26 PM	hey everyone, throughout my entire experience with dnd, i've almost exclusively played clerics (mostly NG clerics of Pelor or some other diety of the sun). the entire time i've been playing them, i have never thought of using a cleric's abilities to powergame/munchkinize. i never realized they could until i recently posted in a dndonlinegames.com thread, when somebody said something along the lines of "clerics are broken because they can use so many positive buffs on themselves and make themselves invincible." i was shocked, and i replied, "please do not berrate clerics. you wouldn't want me saying your favorite class is broken because of X reason." i despise munchkins and have a slight disposition towards powergamers (no offense), and i want to keep myself from becoming one. all clerics i play would readily use their positive buffs on another party member long before they would use them on themselves. but the statement made above about clerics using their posistive buff spells on themselves leads into my question: what spell combos would a cleric use to be considered a munckin or powergamer? Note: do not get me wrong, this is not an attempt to decieve anybody. my clerics use their spell powers to help others and not themselves.
DraconsNighthawk 08-29-05, 06:34 PM	Hmm.. me thinks you want free advice on how to kick butt? Well, if you were 3.0, I'd say harm followed by a quick inflect light wounds to kill anything in one move. Seriously though, just look at the spell list and see how you can put it all together.
Salla 08-29-05, 06:39 PM	If you buff yourself up and take out the enemies before they can hurt your allies, you *are* helping them.
Tedly224 08-29-05, 08:34 PM	Forget some of the negativity that you see on the boards involving priest classes. They ARE undeniably powerful, but that isn't what matters. What matters is that you are having fun and are on the same page with the DM running the game in terms of the things your character can do being in line with his expectations. Now, to better answer your question involving things you can do to make your cleric personally more powerful for fights, I'd direct your attention to the Character Optimization boards to scope out the stickied guides and FAQ's there. There's a few related to priests along with 'best builds' and uses of spells and Domain spell choices. Head on over and take a look is all I'd recommend. And yes, when I play a priest character I have the same sort of mindset you have. (Blank) kind of combat related buff on me, the priest, is great, but the same buff on the group warrior is even better. And area effect buffs are best of all. Still, there are times when not casting a spell if the combat is sudden and to simply convert spontaneous healing spells later as needed. But I think the big gripe that most folks have is that a self-buffed priest is far better than an unbuffed warrior class. It's selfish, true, and not the best use of the abilities you have if you *do* have one or more warrior characters in the group.
Draco Strang 08-29-05, 09:34 PM	There's always been a giant debate over who's more powerful in the wizard/druid/cleric circle. Personally, I think it's like a game of StarCraft. Doesn't really matter which one you play, it's still possible to beat the other two. You could always try the cleric archer builds. Basically it amounts to taking the Zen Archery feat along with some others, and casting a few buff spells. Then you've got some sickass damage potential.
Bloodtide_the_Red 08-29-05, 11:29 PM	Going just Core and saying a 10th level cleric you could: -Bless(or Aid), Divine Favor, Sheild of Faith, Endure Elements(and such), Protection from Alignment, Bull's Strgenth/Bear's Endurance/Eagles Splendor/Owl's Wisdom, Magic Vestment,Prayer, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Spell Immunity, Spell Resistance and have a weapon with Magic Weapon and Align Weapon.(Though note not all theas spells stack). And Domain spells can get you spells like Barkskin and Enlarge Person. Even 'just' bless, divine power, bull's strgenth and magic weapon can get you like a +5 to hit. To some folks '+5' is a lot. And you could do that at say 5th level. No other spell caster can come close to that. Also as they are scared, luck or morale type bonus, so they stack with 'anything'. And most of the spells scale with character level too. And once you leave Core there are dozens of more spells to help, as well as the Channeling feats. Using even a third of the above spells would get you labled a 'PowerGamer' in most games. And from there munckin is quite easy. BT
Zinegata 08-29-05, 11:32 PM	I'd hate to break it to you, but truth of the matter is, one on one clerics are indeed more powerful than most of the other Core classes - only the Druid comes close in any comparison. However, just because the class is powerful doesn't mean that it's broken. The main strength of the Cleric is his/her versatility. Consider this: A Cleric can melee, heal, cast buffs, and cast offensive spells all in the same encounter. And he can do all of these tasks relatively well. Tank types are pretty much limited to melee only. Wizards can blast and buff, but not heal and melee. About the only thing that Cleric isn't good at is skills, but that's what the rogue is there for =). The key to the Cleric's "balance" is that while a Cleric is powerful individually, he is even more valuable supporting the party. Having your party tank still standing and pounding away (thanks to heal spells) will often do more to help you survive than if you had simply cast buffs on yourself to turn yourself into a tank. In a fact, having a generous Cleric who helps out the party is probably the most optimal way of playing the Cleric =). If we're talking about buffs though, I think the level 1 spell "Shield of Faith" is one of the best spells you can cast on the party or yourself. It provides a nice deflection AC bonus that applies to almost all situations and is easy to stack with other AC type. Definitely cast one before a major encounter. Magic Vestment is another powerful spell since it increases the enchantment bonus of the armor of your party. Your simple Scale Mail could become a +5 Scale Mail because of this spell, or you can choose to have a magic armor with lots of specials and increase its enhancement (for example, a +1 Plate of Fortification can be turned into a +5 Plate of Fortification). It also last hours, so you can usually cast it at the start of the day and not worry about it (especially if you have Extend Spell). Did I mention you can use this on your Shields too? =) When things get desperate and you need to enter the fray yourself, few spells can beat Divine Power and Righteous Might (just read the spell descriptions and realize how they make a raging Barbarian look puny, literally). Note that the latter doesn't last very long though, so you'd better finish the fight quickly. Sadly, Righteous Might is something that you can only cast on yourself. Make good use of your Domain spells too. Some give Clerics blasting power that put them almost at par with Wizards (others give nice buffs like Stoneskin or Barkskin). Also, there are also some pretty nifty Domain powers, like the one for Strength, Luck, or Sun. I'm pretty sure there are more solid combos out there, but here are just some of my favorite spells. I wouldn't worry too much about being overpowered though - properly played any class can be a powerhouse - and the Cleric is no exception.
urukar 08-29-05, 11:41 PM	Actually, I think Polymorph is one of the best buff spells in the game. At least the best 4th lv or lower. This one spell can turn anyone (or even the whole party) into tanks. Add to this Haste, Enlarge Person, Invisibility (Greater), and Heroism, and I think that a sorcercer/Wizard can give the cleric a run for their money as a buff machine.
deusxmachina 08-30-05, 03:26 AM	I have yet to see a cleric be an uber-build. If they have 3+ rounds to buff, then sure, but any decent DM isn't going to give you even one round to buff. They have the big, bad meanies in your face and hitting you for 50 points of damage a round before you can blink. I say, if you think a cleric can be uber, then go ahead and try, because even when you try it probably isn't going to happen. Want to powergame? Be a druid. Wildshape into a dire bear or a Treant (or worse) all the while being able to cast spells. Yah. I play a cleric in one campaign and a druid in another. Both are fun, and both are powerful, but it's obvious which one has more cheese if I decide to bring the cheese. I usually hold the druid back in order to give the other party members a chance.
weasel fierce 08-30-05, 03:27 AM	Evading all the video game talk, in terms of hackNslash, the cleric has been one of the most powerfull all round class since day 1.
LordHell 08-30-05, 03:44 AM	1v1 Wizard Druid Cleric The cleric is considered the most 'powerful' class not because it is the best 1v1 class. It is not. A 20th level Wizard would kick a 20th level Clerics ass given 0, 1, or 50 rounds preperation time, it doesnt matter. The Wizard's high level spells are better(Timestop, Shapechange, Prismatic Sphere, Mages Disjunction, and so forth), and can completely strip the cleric of all his magic without fail, while being almost immune to the Clerics melee and magic capabilities. The Cleric is considered to be powerful because it is a reasonably replacement for most of the core classes from levels 1-20. The Wizard is extremely powerful in a 1v1 scenario at high levels, but his power diminishes the more encounters he has. The cleric doesnt have such a weakness. Two clerics may and can be more effective than a Fighter and a Cleric. A party of four clerics would be more difficult to deal with than a party of four wizards. Most D&D however isn't 20th level, isn't 1v1 combats. It is a party situation vs monsters. Most D&D games also have only one Cleric, and a lot of that Clerics power and spells go into healing the party. In a normal party game, the Cleric is quite well balanced. If you have a high level game with one or more Cleric in the party however, things potentially can get out of whack. Throw non-core material into the argument and everything becomes broken. There are way too many variables and many non-core books allow the player to expand the core classes beyond the roles they were originally designed and balanced for.
Darkhearted 08-30-05, 08:38 AM	I don't know about yall, but a cleric is really broken me thinks. In the party I'm in, three wizards\sorcress, one druid and one barbarian, Pretty tough to beat. But my DM wants to have an arena match With all of us going 1on1 against each other. So far going through my spell list I have them beat, Even if it was me against them, kinda sad really. With the right build feats and skill wise, Clerics are really powerfull
Derren S. 08-30-05, 08:48 AM	In a normal party game, the Cleric is quite well balanced. If you have a high level game with one or more Cleric in the party however, things potentially can get out of whack. You should rather say the cleric is quite balanced when he does what everyone expects him to do. When the cleric doesn't use his spells for healing but rather the party pools the money for several CLW wands the cleric is free to buff himself.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 08-30-05, 08:48 AM	A cleric has more power than other classes, but it uses more power too. Sure at level 20 it gets 6+1 basic spells against the 4 (possibly +1) that a wizard does, but about 30-40% of those spells are never used. They are burned into cure spells for the party. A further 10-20% are curative spells of buff that will probably be used on other party members. Rarley do they get to shine with full power, becasue rarley do they get a chance to be alone and unhindered (and that is the biggest flaw of all in these aregumants, a party is greater thatn the sum of its parts, so juding a class on its own is silly and irrelevant.) Just my :twocents:
Derren S. 08-30-05, 08:59 AM	A cleric has more power than other classes, but it uses more power too. Sure at level 20 it gets 6+1 basic spells against the 4 (possibly +1) that a wizard does, but about 30-40% of those spells are never used. They are burned into cure spells for the party. A further 10-20% are curative spells of buff that will probably be used on other party members. If the player chooses to use his spells that way. Its no rule that a cleric has to heal others with spells and buff them before himself.
Zonorhc 08-30-05, 09:07 AM	In my opinion, clerics are balanced out by their religious obligations. Want to buff up and smite everything in sight? Well and good, but Pelor might not agree to you doing that. If your god (read: DM) doesn't believe that your actions are justifiable as helping the cause of your church or faith, then say goodbye to your spells.
Derren S. 08-30-05, 09:17 AM	Thats why when you want to smite you take a god that supports that like Heronius or St. Cuthbert. Or simply take no god at all and worship an idelogy.
Solidcobra 08-30-05, 10:13 AM	Clerics are 'expected' to heal, in the same way rogues are expected to find traps. Not to say that they're not stronger than the normal melee classes. they are. "Yeah, sure, i could spend my spells to heal. or you could cough up 750 gold for a wand and i could out-damage the fighter and heal after the fight." (though druids win the prize, IMO, for raw versatility.)
Jherid 08-30-05, 02:34 PM	I have yet to see a cleric be an uber-build. If they have 3+ rounds to buff, then sure, but any decent DM isn't going to give you even one round to buff. They have the big, bad meanies in your face and hitting you for 50 points of damage a round before you can blink. Uh, Divine Metamagic: Persistant, while wearing a ring of counterspells: dispel/greater dispel magic. ;)
Leewei 08-30-05, 02:52 PM	Clerics start with a base of 8HP and gain 4.5 HP per level on average. They have armor capabilities similar to a fighter, and only lag behind a little as far as HP and AC goes. Clerics will almost always start with 2+1 level 1 spells. This is similar to a sorcerer. As far as utility and damage-dealing, sorcerer/wizard wins out. Clerics, however, are excellent healers, especially if they channel positive energy. Cleric dependency on stats isn't so bad. Wisdom first, then charisma, then constitution, then no worries. Druids are somewhat better than this (largely, only wisdom needed); wizards and sorcerors need all the dexterity and constitution they can get. Because of the healing strength, however, clerics will always be relegated to party support. They share this trait with bards. Because of this, they can be a tad more powerful than other PCs -- the extra power translates readily into another cure or buff thrown on another PC.
Derren S. 08-30-05, 03:03 PM	You talk as if a party is a collective hive mind. If the player of the cleric doesn't want to play a supporter but a frontline fighter, which the cleric is certainly capable of better than a fighter, he can and will do this. You can't dictate players how they should play his character.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 08-30-05, 04:04 PM	On the other hand if the Cleric were perfectly blanced, then no one would ever play one. Because they do have to do healing, you dont allways have a wand of scroll, and besides that costs cash. The cleric would never get to use over half of the spells on the list because they would be forever burning them for cure spells. They would be nothing but walking med kits. They would suck to play.
LordHell 08-30-05, 05:34 PM	If your party only has one cleric, and he refuses to heal the party, the game will quickly end for the party. Even if that Cleric has a wand of CLW, he still has to spend standard actions using it. D&D combat is usually over in 2-5 rounds. If a Cleric wants to buff himself up all mighty before combat then by the time he has finished combat is over. His more powerful buff spells do not last long enough to prebuff. Yes, you can throw in Divine Metamagic + Persistant Spell, but read above about my non-core comment. Personally I have banned this combination from my non-core game because it goes against the INTENT of Metamagic feats and ruins the balance of the spells themselves. Just because Divine metamagic + Persistant Spell is broken, doesnt mean the Cleric is broken. It means that Divine Metamagic + Persistant Spell is broken.
Salla 08-30-05, 06:00 PM	If your party only has one cleric, and he refuses to heal the party, the game will quickly end for the party. Even if that Cleric has a wand of CLW, he still has to spend standard actions using it. D&D combat is usually over in 2-5 rounds. If a Cleric wants to buff himself up all mighty before combat then by the time he has finished combat is over. His more powerful buff spells do not last long enough to prebuff. Yes, you can throw in Divine Metamagic + Persistant Spell, but read above about my non-core comment. Personally I have banned this combination from my non-core game because it goes against the INTENT of Metamagic feats and ruins the balance of the spells themselves. Just because Divine metamagic + Persistant Spell is broken, doesnt mean the Cleric is broken. It means that Divine Metamagic + Persistant Spell is broken. That takes two feats by itself, not to mention seven turning attempts, so you're likely to need Extra Turning as well, and Persistent spell requires Extend spell, so that's four feats (9th level for a human), and the effect is still susceptible to Dispel Magic, anti-magic fields, and a host of other things that are staple effects for high-level monsters with brains. Plus, sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. NPC evil clerics can use it just as easily as PCs.
LordHell 08-30-05, 06:07 PM	That takes two feats by itself, not to mention seven turning attempts, so you're likely to need Extra Turning as well, and Persistent spell requires Extend spell, so that's four feats (9th level for a human), and the effect is still susceptible to Dispel Magic, anti-magic fields, and a host of other things that are staple effects for high-level monsters with brains. Yes it requires a bit of investment. But once you have it the potential for abuse is phenominal. The downside of burning turning attempts is laughable if there are no undead around. D&D is a game about a party, this combination allows the Cleric to be a one man army. Dispel Magic is not a wonderful choice vs a Cleric, who is likely to have those annoying little magic items called Karma Beads. It's also not fullproof. The game becomes lame when you throw anti-magic fields like candy at the Cleric to specifically nerf him. Plus, sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. NPC evil clerics can use it just as easily as PCs. The whole Mutually Assured Destruction rule is not how all of us play D&D. The game suddenly becomes dominated by Persistant Divine Metamagic Clerics *yawn*. The easiest thing is to just disallow a combination that should never have been allowed in the first place, and be done with it. There is a reason D&D has a DM. If I want cheese like this ill play NWN.
Timlagor 08-30-05, 06:17 PM	Clerics are mroe powerful than most ...*by design*. The designers are on record as sayign tehy made the Cleric more powerful because they thought no one woudl want to play them otherwise. They're still not as powerful as Druids.
danielinthewolvesden 08-30-05, 11:29 PM	Clerics are powerful, but according to the general consensus, Druids are much more powerful, and wizards very slightly more powerful. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369436
DylanW 08-30-05, 11:33 PM	Going just Core and saying a 10th level cleric you could: -Bless(or Aid), Divine Favor, Sheild of Faith, Endure Elements(and such), Protection from Alignment, Bull's Strgenth/Bear's Endurance/Eagles Splendor/Owl's Wisdom, Magic Vestment,Prayer, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Spell Immunity, Spell Resistance and have a weapon with Magic Weapon and Align Weapon.(Though note not all theas spells stack). And Domain spells can get you spells like Barkskin and Enlarge Person.Of course, all of these buffs have limited durations (though I'm not sure exactly how long they all are offhand). A melee class (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, etc.) with the right kind of armor and weapons and the right ability scores is "always on"--no time required to buff, and no chance of buffs running out. While a cleric could cast all of those buffs on himself (or even on another party member), he'd be burning a lot of slots that could be used for healing spells. So, once the buffs wear off, you're out of luck if there's any additional combat that day. That should be the idea behind playing healer classes: you don't have to defeat your opponent with massive attacks or by expending every buff you have, you just have to outlast your opponent. (Granted, I'm predisposed to defending the class against charges of munchkinery, as I tend to play a clerics a lot for roleplaying reasons--which usually means less-than-optimal builds.)
Ut-Napishtim 08-31-05, 08:42 AM	I'm actually playing a Cleric in an online game ATM, and I don't see what all the fuss is about. I would say the Druid has a lot more going for it than the Cleric does, and it's powers are less dependant on DM fiat than a Cleric's. The DM could say your god is mad at you for not helping some orphan you didn't even see because you failed your Spot check as a Cleric, but as long as a Druid doesn't go around chopping down trees their philosophy is a lot less restrictive. Plus Wild Shape, maybe with a little Natural Spell Produce Flame (among others) to boost that melee power. Their summoning list alone makes the class worthwhile even if they didn't have anything else (and these are all low-level Core things). All their summoned creatures are +2 CR above a Sorcerer/Wizard or Cleric's because they don't have the outsider templates. Heck, I'd give up another school of magic on my Conjurer just to get a Druid's freakin' summoning list. Personally I'm finding playing a Cleric rather underpowered. A Cleric definitely has versatility which is nice, but like a Bard that versatility comes at a cost. Sure you could focus on combat and be as good as the Fighter at just that, or focus on the Magic and be as good as the Wizard, but down the road taking either too far will hurt your versatility. Not to mention their skill points stink on ice. I don't really see any of the core classes as 'broken' per se. Anyone who thinks so though is welcome to play that class in my game if they like, although I doubt they'd find it as broken then. Most of the time this kind of debate stems from whiny players and inattentive DM's.
Vaelan 08-31-05, 08:59 AM	Here is what a munchkin Cleric does... 1. Takes the Animal Domain for Shapechange. 2. Uses Shapechange to change into a 41 hitdie gold dragon. 3. Casts Divine Power and claims to get +41 BAB. 4. Uses the dragon's Alternate Form ability to take his normal form. 5. Keeps the dragon's physical stats while doing so. 6. Picks up his mace and takes eight attacks in a single round. Obviously a few of these steps aren't quite right, according to the rules. This is what makes a Cleric that tries this a munchkin. Specifically: step 2 ignores the errata, step 3 substitutes 'hit dice' for 'class levels', and steps 5 and 6 selectively ignore the polymorph rules.
Patryn Runner 08-31-05, 02:45 PM	This is another one of those "I'm sorry to say, but yes" replies. If you've been playing DnD for a while and know how to use either a cleric or druid, you should be able to take out most anything that comes at you. I used to be a big fan of the druid in 2nd edition, but then realized how overpowered it became in 3.0/3.5 and now we usually have the person with the least gaming experience play the divine casting classes. I mean, just examine the core classes. Both the cleric and druid have med BAB, good fort and will saves (the two most important of the three) full caster progression, double the hit die of a mage, are the only two classes with major healing powers along with a lot of other things that clearly give them a huge advantage over the other classes. The cleric has all that and can use martial weapons, the druid can wander around in wildshape (gaining huge bonuses to STR,DEX and CON) while casting spells (Natural spell feat required). Cleric/Archer builds have such good synergy that for a couple months there, almost every day someone would post a thread on the CO board that said *whiney voice* "optimize my sweet cleric archer." All this said, play whatever makes the game fun for you. If you're having fun and not being the munchkin enforcer of the group, run with it. This is just my opinion on your cleric question, but if you look at the rest of the replies, you'll see that there are a lot of similar thoughts on this.
LordHell 08-31-05, 08:13 PM	All their summoned creatures are +2 CR above a Sorcerer/Wizard or Cleric's because they don't have the outsider templates. Heck, I'd give up another school of magic on my Conjurer just to get a Druid's freakin' summoning list. The entire Druids summon list with the exception of a Unicorn is Neutral, which means any protection from X spell with completely negate the Druids summon. Arcane summons being Fiendish or Celestial on the time of summoning take the Always Good or Always Evil alignment attribute, and thus can bypass Protection from X
Zinegata 08-31-05, 08:23 PM	The entire Druids summon list with the exception of a Unicorn is Neutral, which means any protection from X spell with completely negate the Druids summon. I think most Druids summon Unicorns outside of combat though for the extra healing power. It's pretty much the Druidic equivalent of Spontaneous Cure Spells =). I'd also agree that at level 20, Wizards have an edge in spells over Clerics. However, I still stand by my argument that Clerics are more powerful. This is largely because they are viable from level 1-20, unlike the Wizard which is rather weak at low levels. The Druid at low levels, on his/her own, is also fairly weak compared to the Cleric, but the animal companion compensates for this weakness. Besides which, Level 20 combat now mainly revolves around "save or die" anyway. Either the Cleric Implodes the Wizard or the Wizard does something just as nasty to the Cleric. The guy with Improved Initiative will probably win =).
LordHell 08-31-05, 10:07 PM	I'd also agree that at level 20, Wizards have an edge in spells over Clerics. However, I still stand by my argument that Clerics are more powerful. This is largely because they are viable from level 1-20, unlike the Wizard which is rather weak at low levels. The Druid at low levels, on his/her own, is also fairly weak compared to the Cleric, but the animal companion compensates for this weakness. Wizards are actually pretty tough at low levels. They can get a great AC and can have tons of scrolls either payed for or scribed themself. The Druid is pathetic at low levels, but Wolf is often better than the party fighters! The Cleric is very powerful because it can do the roles of almost all the other party members almost as good. One Cleric this isnt much of a problem, but two? Hmm. Clerics should be good spellcasters and good meleers, not great spellcasters and good meleers (and great meleers with some buffs). Besides which, Level 20 combat now mainly revolves around "save or die" anyway. Either the Cleric Implodes the Wizard or the Wizard does something just as nasty to the Cleric. The guy with Improved Initiative will probably win =). A lot of it comes down to initiative true. Looking at the spells though the Wizard has the edge, with MoP giving him a +20 insight bonus if he loses initiative. The only way the Cleric can win is with the right domains using the Wizards own spells against him (Disjunction and so forth). It disgruntles me significantly that Clerics get access to Arcane magic through domains, and if I was going to make a change to the Cleric class that would be it.
deusxmachina 09-01-05, 01:45 AM	Uh, Divine Metamagic: Persistant, while wearing a ring of counterspells: dispel/greater dispel magic. ;) A lot of cleric stuff has been nerfed in errata. Even Righteous Might is only "ok" now. I'm not saying clerics can't be uber, I'm saying someone has to specifically gear him that way or have rounds of buffing to give him uber damage potential. Someone just playing one "normally" has little chance of disrupting the game with an overpowered cleric. For a druid, man, one of my characters is a druid, and Wild Armor probably shouldn't be allowed. Wildshape + Wild Armor + Monk's Belt = forget it. I hold back with that guy on purpose. I rarely hold back with my cleric.
Ut-Napishtim 09-01-05, 09:02 AM	If you've been playing DnD for a while and know how to use either a cleric or druid, you should be able to take out most anything that comes at you. Well, I've been playing D&D for a while. Clerics aren't exactly my most common selection for a character though. Please explain to me how my Cleric (http://www.dndonlinegames.com/view.php?id=19963) can take out most anything. I haven't had much luck at that so far. The entire Druids summon list with the exception of a Unicorn is Neutral, which means any protection from X spell with completely negate the Druids summon. And how many creatures from the MM, MM II, and MM III have that spell at their disposal without DM tinkering to intentionally nerf the Druid's summoning? Even then, how many of those can't be dispelled by the Druid with a Dispel Magic? How many Conjurers also have multiple hit dice of native companions and other spells (thanks to spontaneous summoning) to fall back on if this occurs? How many good Clerics summon evil creatures to bypass an opponent's Protection from Good?
Lord Schpungus 09-01-05, 03:31 PM	Get yourself your deity's favored weapon, get your divine power, divine favor, righteous might on and kick a fighter's tush at the only job he's good at.
LordHell 09-02-05, 12:09 AM	Get yourself your deity's favored weapon, get your divine power, divine favor, righteous might on and kick a fighter's tush at the only job he's good at. Just dont let him disarm/trip and slaughter you in the first round of combat while you're buffing up.