Broken Ninja [Archive] - Wizards Community

Broken Ninja [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
deep_grave
06-21-06, 07:42 PM We recently got a new player into our campaign and he is playing a Half-Orc 11th level ninja (from Complete Adventurer). First of all, he is duel-wielding, and we haste everyone. Then he goes ethereal with ghost step and easily flanks the opponents. He is the only one doing meaningful damage, because with a full-round attack he is doing 25d6 sneak attack damage on top of 5d6 flaming and 3d10+2d8+30 weapons. Is this all correct? It seems like sneak attack damage is so broken. Are we not doing it according to the rules? Please help (a lot!), because this is definitely a fault line in our campaign.
Galthor
06-21-06, 07:45 PM Well, I don't know much about the rules, but as I just read in that book a few hours ago:
As far as I know Ninjas don't have sneak attack, but an ability called 'sudden strike', which (opposed to sneak attack) doesn't grant any bonus damage just by flanking someone, but rather the target has to be denied his dexterity bonus by some means for the Ninja to get his 'pseudo sneak damage'. I hope I got it right here, but if you doubt me you might still read that part in the book. :)
allenchan
06-21-06, 07:53 PM First and foremost, ninjas do not have sneak attack, they have sudden strike. If one were to read sudden strike, flanking is not a condition that allows the use of it. Anyways, you're not taking into account that most of those will miss, since Ninjas are not the best meleers, and that many things at higher levels should/will be immune to critical hits and thus precision based damage in general.

ps: 1d10 and 1d8? What is he weilding, a bastard sword and a longsword? His to-hit penalties should be terrible, unless thats all hes invested feats into.

Honestly, I believe a better understanding of the rules would prevent most of your headaches.
Elemental
06-21-06, 08:12 PM We recently got a new player into our campaign and he is playing a Half-Orc 11th level ninja (from Complete Adventurer). First of all, he is duel-wielding, and we haste everyone. Then he goes ethereal with ghost step and easily flanks the opponents. He is the only one doing meaningful damage, because with a full-round attack he is doing 25d6 sneak attack damage on top of 5d6 flaming and 3d10+2d8+30 weapons. Is this all correct? It seems like sneak attack damage is so broken. Are we not doing it according to the rules? Please help (a lot!), because this is definitely a fault line in our campaign.

It's not correct, not at all.

To be able to use Ghost Strike (attack from the Ethereal), the Ninja needs to use a limited ability called Ki Power, and pays the cost per attack, not per round of attacking. Also, activating Ghost Strike is a move action, and thus incompatible with a full attack.

I think there might be just a little bit of cheating going on in this situation.
Ryu Katsuragi
06-21-06, 08:25 PM It's not correct, not at all.

To be able to use Ghost Strike (attack from the Ethereal), the Ninja needs to use a limited ability called Ki Power, and pays the cost per attack, not per round of attacking. Also, activating Ghost Strike is a move action, and thus incompatible with a full attack.

I think there might be just a little bit of cheating going on in this situation.

He never said anything about ghost strike. To my knowledge, that allowed you to spend a ki point to affect ghosts for that round.

Ghost step is a swift action. Meaning he can only use it once per round. He could do a full attack, but the first attack would get his sudden strike bonus damage, and the rest of the attacks would deal normal damage.
Andrew
06-21-06, 09:02 PM 1. CV Ninja do not get Sneak Attack, they get Sudden Strike, which is the same as sneak attack except flanking isn't good enough to get it.

2. There is ghost step (invisible) at 2nd level or ghost step (ethereal) at 10th. Activating ghost step is a swift action that does not provoke AoO's. Invisible will get you sudden strike damage against qualifying targets. Ethereal also makes you invisible to creatures on the material plane, but as you are intangible to them they are intangible to you, so no mad stab action there.

3. Ghost step (invisible) makes you invisible as the condition, not invisible as the Sor/Wiz 2 spell invisibility. That means, as written, you are invisible for the duration of the effect (1 round), and your actions do not cause your invisible condition to go away.

I can understand a houserule to make it invisible as the spell. Still, most of the time it isn't anything a rogue couldn't do. It's got a discrete number of uses per day, but that may not matter in a one encounter per day campaign.

Standard answers plus a few for counters; constructs, oozes, undead, plants, fortification, see invisibility (can be permanencied), antimagic field (ghost step is supernatural).
SeraphimDominion
06-22-06, 01:28 AM Ghost Strike is also what lets you strike FROM the ethereal TO the material. The OP said the ninja was going ethereal, flanking, and the dealing tons of sneak attack. People have mentioned the various things wrong with this, but let's put them all in one list.

1. He needs to spend 1 ki as a swift action to become ethereal for 1 round.
2. He needs to spend 1 ki as a MOVE action to be able to attack material ooponents from the ethereal. Thus, he can only get one attack. So no two-weapon fullrounds.
3. He doesn't have sneak attack, he has Sudden Strike, which doesn't trigger off of flanking, but only off of opponents being denied Dexterity.

So in short, no, the ninja is nowhere near that broken. :)

He never said anything about ghost strike. To my knowledge, that allowed you to spend a ki point to affect ghosts for that round.

Ghost step is a swift action. Meaning he can only use it once per round. He could do a full attack, but the first attack would get his sudden strike bonus damage, and the rest of the attacks would deal normal damage.
stabs
06-22-06, 04:21 AM He doesn't need to flank or go ethereal to get his sneak on a Full Attack. The Ninja invisibility ability is not broken by making an attack. It lasts the whole round.
allenchan
06-22-06, 04:41 AM He doesn't need to flank or go ethereal to get his sneak on a Full Attack. The Ninja invisibility ability is not broken by making an attack. It lasts the whole round.

TRue, but thats not what the ninja in question was doing, as per the OP.
Iry
06-22-06, 05:06 AM The OP only has two unusual things occuring.
1) The Ninja is going Ethereal, which makes full attacking with Ki Points very difficult. Did you mean to say that the Ninja was using the Ethereal ability to move through enemies into an advantageous position during one round then Full Attacking during other rounds?
2) The fact that he's flanking does not trigger Sudden Strike. The normal Ghost Step will allow him to get Sudden Strikes on each attack of that round, and Flanking will give him a +2 to Attack. The fact that he's a Half Orc further increases his attack and damage, so Flanking is still a sensible place for him to be if he's willing to risk Full Attacks against him.
Elemental
06-22-06, 10:37 AM He never said anything about ghost strike. To my knowledge, that allowed you to spend a ki point to affect ghosts for that round.

Ghost Strike also lets you attack material opponents while ethereal.
Krelios
06-22-06, 10:49 AM He doesn't need to flank or go ethereal to get his sneak on a Full Attack. The Ninja invisibility ability is not broken by making an attack. It lasts the whole round.
Do you have any evidence to support that?
Teydyn
06-22-06, 11:32 AM Do you have any evidence to support that?
Here.
3. Ghost step (invisible) makes you invisible as the condition, not invisible as the Sor/Wiz 2 spell invisibility. That means, as written, you are invisible for the duration of the effect (1 round), and your actions do not cause your invisible condition to go away.
Read the ability. Nowhere its stated that it works like the spell (where you become visible), you are just invisble.
Read the condition of invisible. Nowhere its stated that you become visible after an attack.
->
Full attack while being invisible

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deep_grave 06-21-06, 07:42 PM	We recently got a new player into our campaign and he is playing a Half-Orc 11th level ninja (from Complete Adventurer). First of all, he is duel-wielding, and we haste everyone. Then he goes ethereal with ghost step and easily flanks the opponents. He is the only one doing meaningful damage, because with a full-round attack he is doing 25d6 sneak attack damage on top of 5d6 flaming and 3d10+2d8+30 weapons. Is this all correct? It seems like sneak attack damage is so broken. Are we not doing it according to the rules? Please help (a lot!), because this is definitely a fault line in our campaign.
Galthor 06-21-06, 07:45 PM	Well, I don't know much about the rules, but as I just read in that book a few hours ago: As far as I know Ninjas don't have sneak attack, but an ability called 'sudden strike', which (opposed to sneak attack) doesn't grant any bonus damage just by flanking someone, but rather the target has to be denied his dexterity bonus by some means for the Ninja to get his 'pseudo sneak damage'. I hope I got it right here, but if you doubt me you might still read that part in the book. :)
allenchan 06-21-06, 07:53 PM	First and foremost, ninjas do not have sneak attack, they have sudden strike. If one were to read sudden strike, flanking is not a condition that allows the use of it. Anyways, you're not taking into account that most of those will miss, since Ninjas are not the best meleers, and that many things at higher levels should/will be immune to critical hits and thus precision based damage in general. ps: 1d10 and 1d8? What is he weilding, a bastard sword and a longsword? His to-hit penalties should be terrible, unless thats all hes invested feats into. Honestly, I believe a better understanding of the rules would prevent most of your headaches.
Elemental 06-21-06, 08:12 PM	We recently got a new player into our campaign and he is playing a Half-Orc 11th level ninja (from Complete Adventurer). First of all, he is duel-wielding, and we haste everyone. Then he goes ethereal with ghost step and easily flanks the opponents. He is the only one doing meaningful damage, because with a full-round attack he is doing 25d6 sneak attack damage on top of 5d6 flaming and 3d10+2d8+30 weapons. Is this all correct? It seems like sneak attack damage is so broken. Are we not doing it according to the rules? Please help (a lot!), because this is definitely a fault line in our campaign. It's not correct, not at all. To be able to use Ghost Strike (attack from the Ethereal), the Ninja needs to use a limited ability called Ki Power, and pays the cost per attack, not per round of attacking. Also, activating Ghost Strike is a move action, and thus incompatible with a full attack. I think there might be just a little bit of cheating going on in this situation.
Ryu Katsuragi 06-21-06, 08:25 PM	It's not correct, not at all. To be able to use Ghost Strike (attack from the Ethereal), the Ninja needs to use a limited ability called Ki Power, and pays the cost per attack, not per round of attacking. Also, activating Ghost Strike is a move action, and thus incompatible with a full attack. I think there might be just a little bit of cheating going on in this situation. He never said anything about ghost strike. To my knowledge, that allowed you to spend a ki point to affect ghosts for that round. Ghost step is a swift action. Meaning he can only use it once per round. He could do a full attack, but the first attack would get his sudden strike bonus damage, and the rest of the attacks would deal normal damage.
Andrew 06-21-06, 09:02 PM	1. CV Ninja do not get Sneak Attack, they get Sudden Strike, which is the same as sneak attack except flanking isn't good enough to get it. 2. There is ghost step (invisible) at 2nd level or ghost step (ethereal) at 10th. Activating ghost step is a swift action that does not provoke AoO's. Invisible will get you sudden strike damage against qualifying targets. Ethereal also makes you invisible to creatures on the material plane, but as you are intangible to them they are intangible to you, so no mad stab action there. 3. Ghost step (invisible) makes you invisible as the condition, not invisible as the Sor/Wiz 2 spell invisibility. That means, as written, you are invisible for the duration of the effect (1 round), and your actions do not cause your invisible condition to go away. I can understand a houserule to make it invisible as the spell. Still, most of the time it isn't anything a rogue couldn't do. It's got a discrete number of uses per day, but that may not matter in a one encounter per day campaign. Standard answers plus a few for counters; constructs, oozes, undead, plants, fortification, see invisibility (can be permanencied), antimagic field (ghost step is supernatural).
SeraphimDominion 06-22-06, 01:28 AM	Ghost Strike is also what lets you strike FROM the ethereal TO the material. The OP said the ninja was going ethereal, flanking, and the dealing tons of sneak attack. People have mentioned the various things wrong with this, but let's put them all in one list. 1. He needs to spend 1 ki as a swift action to become ethereal for 1 round. 2. He needs to spend 1 ki as a MOVE action to be able to attack material ooponents from the ethereal. Thus, he can only get one attack. So no two-weapon fullrounds. 3. He doesn't have sneak attack, he has Sudden Strike, which doesn't trigger off of flanking, but only off of opponents being denied Dexterity. So in short, no, the ninja is nowhere near that broken. :) He never said anything about ghost strike. To my knowledge, that allowed you to spend a ki point to affect ghosts for that round. Ghost step is a swift action. Meaning he can only use it once per round. He could do a full attack, but the first attack would get his sudden strike bonus damage, and the rest of the attacks would deal normal damage.
stabs 06-22-06, 04:21 AM	He doesn't need to flank or go ethereal to get his sneak on a Full Attack. The Ninja invisibility ability is not broken by making an attack. It lasts the whole round.
allenchan 06-22-06, 04:41 AM	He doesn't need to flank or go ethereal to get his sneak on a Full Attack. The Ninja invisibility ability is not broken by making an attack. It lasts the whole round. TRue, but thats not what the ninja in question was doing, as per the OP.
Iry 06-22-06, 05:06 AM	The OP only has two unusual things occuring. 1) The Ninja is going Ethereal, which makes full attacking with Ki Points very difficult. Did you mean to say that the Ninja was using the Ethereal ability to move through enemies into an advantageous position during one round then Full Attacking during other rounds? 2) The fact that he's flanking does not trigger Sudden Strike. The normal Ghost Step will allow him to get Sudden Strikes on each attack of that round, and Flanking will give him a +2 to Attack. The fact that he's a Half Orc further increases his attack and damage, so Flanking is still a sensible place for him to be if he's willing to risk Full Attacks against him.
Elemental 06-22-06, 10:37 AM	He never said anything about ghost strike. To my knowledge, that allowed you to spend a ki point to affect ghosts for that round. Ghost Strike also lets you attack material opponents while ethereal.
Krelios 06-22-06, 10:49 AM	He doesn't need to flank or go ethereal to get his sneak on a Full Attack. The Ninja invisibility ability is not broken by making an attack. It lasts the whole round. Do you have any evidence to support that?
Teydyn 06-22-06, 11:32 AM	Do you have any evidence to support that? Here. 3. Ghost step (invisible) makes you invisible as the condition, not invisible as the Sor/Wiz 2 spell invisibility. That means, as written, you are invisible for the duration of the effect (1 round), and your actions do not cause your invisible condition to go away. Read the ability. Nowhere its stated that it works like the spell (where you become visible), you are just invisble. Read the condition of invisible. Nowhere its stated that you become visible after an attack. -> Full attack while being invisible