Broken tools... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Broken tools... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jbsaff
04-04-07, 06:40 PM Quick question about thieves tools.

When opening a lock, is there a chance of breaking the tools? My group just broke a couple sets of theives tools on some locks (Rogue player couldn't make it that week, so another character was trying to do the job). Only thing is, I couldn't remember what the mechanic was so I went to look it up. :waits: "Hmm, not on the SRD... well okay, let's check the PHB.... Nope not there either."

Is the chance to break tools a common houserule, or did I miss a rule about it. Granted, since the GM frowns heavily on player recreational reading of the DMG, I haven't checked that book.

Thanks!
Sareld
04-04-07, 07:14 PM A Dm who is afraid of the players learning the rules is a DM who dosent know tham well enough himself.

But no, there is no rules for tool breakage, eventhough it is a perfectly acceptable result of a natural one.
Edymnion
04-04-07, 08:03 PM No, there are no written rules that say you ever break your tools on a failed check. However, a natural 1 on the roll breaking the tool would be a serviceable houserule.

I suggest you talk to the DM and ask if he has a houserule in place that you didn't know about before. If yes, well, you really should ask him what other houserules he's using that you don't know about. If no, point out to him that tool breakage isn't in the rules, and that he may have been reading it wrong.
Kouk
04-04-07, 09:55 PM Except there is nothing to read wrong. He probably just picked it up from Oblivion or something.
seldom_seen
04-04-07, 10:24 PM Except there is nothing to read wrong. He probably just picked it up from Oblivion or something.

We played with a houserule that on a natural roll of 1, the picks were so bent as to be useless. This was WAAAAAAY before Oblivion.

I went through more picks that way....
LeuktheSavior
04-04-07, 10:30 PM thats all that happens to you guys when you roll a 1? when anyone in my group DM's and we botch a roll, something god awful happens. picking a lock would end up with us breaking the lockpick off in the lock, setting off whatever traps may have been there, cutting ourselves on the broken lock piece as it snapped, screaming in pain and alerting our foes that we're sneaking up on them, and then if the DM is feeling particularly mischievious or the campaign is open to slapstick humor (which is usually when myself or my friend DMs) either the Great Buzzard (my crazy punishment) or the Shadow Hog (my buddy's punishment) adds something to the mix.
anyway, lockpicks dont break, although it is a good houserule to have them break on a botch.
darkneolink
04-04-07, 10:53 PM thats all that happens to you guys when you roll a 1? when anyone in my group DM's and we botch a roll, something god awful happens. picking a lock would end up with us breaking the lockpick off in the lock, setting off whatever traps may have been there, cutting ourselves on the broken lock piece as it snapped, screaming in pain and alerting our foes that we're sneaking up on them, and then if the DM is feeling particularly mischievious or the campaign is open to slapstick humor (which is usually when myself or my friend DMs) either the Great Buzzard (my crazy punishment) or the Shadow Hog (my buddy's punishment) adds something to the mix.
anyway, lockpicks dont break, although it is a good houserule to have them break on a botch.

and then Cthulhu comes and does whatever he wants to do

and we party with tea and cookies XP

bad jokes aside... my Dm used to break my tools when I missed by 5 or more
n_nU lost many of my tools that way

If the tools were masterwork It was when I missed by 10 or more
jbsaff
04-05-07, 12:38 AM No, there are no written rules that say you ever break your tools on a failed check. However, a natural 1 on the roll breaking the tool would be a serviceable houserule.

I suggest you talk to the DM and ask if he has a houserule in place that you didn't know about before. If yes, well, you really should ask him what other houserules he's using that you don't know about. If no, point out to him that tool breakage isn't in the rules, and that he may have been reading it wrong.

Unfortunately, it wasn't a natural 1 on the Open Lock. It was a completely separate d% roll. Yes, that's right, the group had the pleasure of seeing the guy on the tools open the lock and break the tools at the same time! Suffice to say, we've started beating open cabinets. (I can't wait for one to blow up.)

On the houserule note, I've already discovered several. Some of the gems:

Full-attacks are always allowed as a full action, no matter what your BAB is. This confused me royally when my first cleric got to +6 BAB.
One five-foot step is always allowed, even if you have already used a move or move-equivalent action.
Specifically stated abilities of a familiar/animal companion/psicrystal may not function if the GM decides it would "mess up" his crafted encounter. These abilities may be gone at any time; there is no list of abilities that are always removed or always retained.
Psionics are different. Read the FAQ on the Psionics board if you need more explanation. I know, technically not a houserule, but I'm in danger of being executed for breathing. No, I'm not exagerating. I have already started shopping for a replacement PC.

The irony is a disovered these "houserules" when I borrowed the DMG to develop a separate campaign for my brother. Now I have to keep the two distinct in my mind, since I run my campaign as close to RAW as I understand.

Thanks for the info. I'll ask about the situation next time we meet.
_Jayne_Cobb_
04-05-07, 09:19 AM One five-foot step is always allowed, even if you have already used a move or move-equivalent action.

Seriously. Wow, this one is so open to abuse. Kiss AoO goodbye for a start, and I would think that the dance of PCs around NPCs to continually setup and re-setup flanking positions must be very amusing.
Augurer
04-05-07, 09:47 AM Full-attacks are always allowed as a full action, no matter what your BAB is. This confused me royally when my first cleric got to +6 BAB.

What's the house rule here? A Cleric with a BAB of +6 can Full Attack as a full-round action. The first attack is at +6, the second at +1. When is a full attack not allowed if you can perform a full-round action? I can't think of any circumstances, other than the obvious that no opponent is within 5' of your reach to attack.

One five-foot step is always allowed, even if you have already used a move or move-equivalent action.
You can always make a 5-foot step if you haven't moved during the round. Move-equivelant actions don't count as movement in terms of preventing a 5' step. You shouldn't get a 5' step if you've made any other movement during the round, however.
Specifically stated abilities of a familiar/animal companion/psicrystal may not function if the GM decides it would "mess up" his crafted encounter. These abilities may be gone at any time; there is no list of abilities that are always removed or always retained.
This rule is whack. That's not even a rule. It's simply GM Fiat, and stupid.
Tichondrus
04-05-07, 10:10 AM The familiar and movement if alredy moved rules are just....
imbalancing?
_Jayne_Cobb_
04-05-07, 10:18 AM The familiar and movement if alredy moved rules are just....
imbalancing?

The word you are looking for is "stupid".
Tichondrus
04-05-07, 10:42 AM The word you are looking for is "stupid".
Not stupid, I try to be respectful as much as posible.
The 'move even if moved' rule is simply surrealistic, even more surrealistic than making fire out of guano.
The familiar one... it's lacking respect to your players, since they devote time, effort and even rescources to make the companion worth it, make the whole roleplaying on it and usually even have a slight dependance and trust in it as an NPC.
jbsaff
04-05-07, 12:04 PM @Augurer: The full-attack house rule is that any character, even a level 1 character, may make a full attack as a full-round action. We had a fighter with cleave and a greatsword killing 3 goblins in one round at second level. (Attack 1: kill goblin. Cleave to kill second goblin. Attack 2: kill goblin 3.) He shouldn't have had the second attack, because by RAW a character cannot full attack until they have a BAB high enough to grant a second attack (+6/+1 in the BAB column). Thus when I hit level 8 as a Cleric, I was confused, because I had already spent 7 levels using full attacks. Fortunately, we didn't get much further on that campaign, but we were talking about making all of our attacks as a single standard action.

To get a better idea, imagine fighting 20 goblins in a dungeon at a party ECL of 6 or so, with each goblin allowed to 5' step and full attack with their morningstars or bows. Yeah, they aren't that strong, but they have a potential 40 attacks in a round. We were lucky to have cover and we made some good Intimidation checks to frighten off some of the attackers.
Augurer
04-05-07, 12:42 PM @Augurer: The full-attack house rule is that any character, even a level 1 character, may make a full attack as a full-round action. We had a fighter with cleave and a greatsword killing 3 goblins in one round at second level. (Attack 1: kill goblin. Cleave to kill second goblin. Attack 2: kill goblin 3.) He shouldn't have had the second attack, because by RAW a character cannot full attack until they have a BAB high enough to grant a second attack (+6/+1 in the BAB column). Thus when I hit level 8 as a Cleric, I was confused, because I had already spent 7 levels using full attacks. Fortunately, we didn't get much further on that campaign, but we were talking about making all of our attacks as a single standard action.

To get a better idea, imagine fighting 20 goblins in a dungeon at a party ECL of 6 or so, with each goblin allowed to 5' step and full attack with their morningstars or bows. Yeah, they aren't that strong, but they have a potential 40 attacks in a round. We were lucky to have cover and we made some good Intimidation checks to frighten off some of the attackers.
So Full Attack was somehow translated into meaning 2 attacks.
_Jayne_Cobb_
04-05-07, 12:50 PM Not stupid, I try to be respectful as much as posible.

So do I, but these rules are still stupid. The DM may be smart as all get out, but even smart people can do stupid things.

The 'move even if moved' rule is simply surrealistic, even more surrealistic than making fire out of guano.

You are missing the joke, then. Guano is a source of nitrate needed to make gunpowder. The joke of needing guano as a spell compoenent for fireball is that the fireball is actually just the caster making his own gunpowder, not magic at all. Most spell components - at least from the original game - are actually bad jokes along these lines.
Praedoran
04-05-07, 06:00 PM First off, it's not that harsh for the DM to rule that you broke the Theives' Tools upon a failed roll, why?

Open Lock is a Trained Only skill. Heck, I'd let players try to Tumble without the skill, put first I'd let them know: "You stand a good chance of breaking your ass if you fail."
Magnus029
04-05-07, 06:24 PM @Augurer: The full-attack house rule is that any character, even a level 1 character, may make a full attack as a full-round action. We had a fighter with cleave and a greatsword killing 3 goblins in one round at second level. (Attack 1: kill goblin. Cleave to kill second goblin. Attack 2: kill goblin 3.) He shouldn't have had the second attack, because by RAW a character cannot full attack until they have a BAB high enough to grant a second attack (+6/+1 in the BAB column). Thus when I hit level 8 as a Cleric, I was confused, because I had already spent 7 levels using full attacks. Fortunately, we didn't get much further on that campaign, but we were talking about making all of our attacks as a single standard action.

To get a better idea, imagine fighting 20 goblins in a dungeon at a party ECL of 6 or so, with each goblin allowed to 5' step and full attack with their morningstars or bows. Yeah, they aren't that strong, but they have a potential 40 attacks in a round. We were lucky to have cover and we made some good Intimidation checks to frighten off some of the attackers.

So lost... 20 goblins = 40 attacks, 2 attacks per goblin... are we looking at 40 goblins who are level 6 fighters? That might actually be challenging. Full attack for ANYONE with less than +6 Base Attack Bonus (not a full to hit bonus) = 1 attack. The only way to get more than 1 attack is with certain spells, class abilities, feats.

As for the 5' step... if you have already MOVED, there is no 5ft step, if you have not moved but done a move action (but not actually left the starting square at all) then you can still 5ft step.

"Specifically stated abilities of a familiar/animal companion/psicrystal may not function if the GM decides it would "mess up" his crafted encounter. These abilities may be gone at any time; there is no list of abilities that are always removed or always retained."
That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. I had to like triple check... and the load of **** had me dying! I really don't know what to say, speechless even... ok not really.

As far as being executed... I don't think it for breathing, I think its more for the above load of ****.

Oh and to the OP, someone not trained in LP using tools and they break, even if there is no mechanic for it, I can't think of a DM that wouldn't break a few tools, maybe try throwing a few ranks in Open Lock to avoid it. My buddy plays a ranger and constantly drops rank in it just in case the rogue does something stupid.
jbsaff
04-05-07, 06:55 PM Actually, it would make sense if the person doing the opening had been trying to use Open Lock untrained. However, he wasn't. We don't allow the use of trained-only skills if the character doesn't have any ranks in the skill or the skill on the class list. So he specifically placed cross-class skill points into Open Lock in order to be able to use that skill.

@Magnus029: On full attack - I was saying that my GM has an apparent house rule that allows any creature/character to make a full attack of at least 2 attacks even if their BAB does not allow it. Thus, 20 goblins * 2 attacks from broken houserule = 40 attacks.

Same thing for the 5' step. The houserule says we can move to an enemy, attack, and 5' back, avoiding any AoOs from the defender. Once again, this is wrong. We shouldn't be able to, but the houserule says we can.

Thanks for the info everyone. Now that I think about it, I'm afraid that the broken tools may be the least of my worries.
Cartigan
04-05-07, 07:23 PM Except there is nothing to read wrong. He probably just picked it up from Oblivion or something.

Neverwinter Nights.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jbsaff 04-04-07, 06:40 PM	Quick question about thieves tools. When opening a lock, is there a chance of breaking the tools? My group just broke a couple sets of theives tools on some locks (Rogue player couldn't make it that week, so another character was trying to do the job). Only thing is, I couldn't remember what the mechanic was so I went to look it up. :waits: "Hmm, not on the SRD... well okay, let's check the PHB.... Nope not there either." Is the chance to break tools a common houserule, or did I miss a rule about it. Granted, since the GM frowns heavily on player recreational reading of the DMG, I haven't checked that book. Thanks!
Sareld 04-04-07, 07:14 PM	A Dm who is afraid of the players learning the rules is a DM who dosent know tham well enough himself. But no, there is no rules for tool breakage, eventhough it is a perfectly acceptable result of a natural one.
Edymnion 04-04-07, 08:03 PM	No, there are no written rules that say you ever break your tools on a failed check. However, a natural 1 on the roll breaking the tool would be a serviceable houserule. I suggest you talk to the DM and ask if he has a houserule in place that you didn't know about before. If yes, well, you really should ask him what other houserules he's using that you don't know about. If no, point out to him that tool breakage isn't in the rules, and that he may have been reading it wrong.
Kouk 04-04-07, 09:55 PM	Except there is nothing to read wrong. He probably just picked it up from Oblivion or something.
seldom_seen 04-04-07, 10:24 PM	Except there is nothing to read wrong. He probably just picked it up from Oblivion or something. We played with a houserule that on a natural roll of 1, the picks were so bent as to be useless. This was WAAAAAAY before Oblivion. I went through more picks that way....
LeuktheSavior 04-04-07, 10:30 PM	thats all that happens to you guys when you roll a 1? when anyone in my group DM's and we botch a roll, something god awful happens. picking a lock would end up with us breaking the lockpick off in the lock, setting off whatever traps may have been there, cutting ourselves on the broken lock piece as it snapped, screaming in pain and alerting our foes that we're sneaking up on them, and then if the DM is feeling particularly mischievious or the campaign is open to slapstick humor (which is usually when myself or my friend DMs) either the Great Buzzard (my crazy punishment) or the Shadow Hog (my buddy's punishment) adds something to the mix. anyway, lockpicks dont break, although it is a good houserule to have them break on a botch.
darkneolink 04-04-07, 10:53 PM	thats all that happens to you guys when you roll a 1? when anyone in my group DM's and we botch a roll, something god awful happens. picking a lock would end up with us breaking the lockpick off in the lock, setting off whatever traps may have been there, cutting ourselves on the broken lock piece as it snapped, screaming in pain and alerting our foes that we're sneaking up on them, and then if the DM is feeling particularly mischievious or the campaign is open to slapstick humor (which is usually when myself or my friend DMs) either the Great Buzzard (my crazy punishment) or the Shadow Hog (my buddy's punishment) adds something to the mix. anyway, lockpicks dont break, although it is a good houserule to have them break on a botch. and then Cthulhu comes and does whatever he wants to do and we party with tea and cookies XP bad jokes aside... my Dm used to break my tools when I missed by 5 or more n_nU lost many of my tools that way If the tools were masterwork It was when I missed by 10 or more
jbsaff 04-05-07, 12:38 AM	No, there are no written rules that say you ever break your tools on a failed check. However, a natural 1 on the roll breaking the tool would be a serviceable houserule. I suggest you talk to the DM and ask if he has a houserule in place that you didn't know about before. If yes, well, you really should ask him what other houserules he's using that you don't know about. If no, point out to him that tool breakage isn't in the rules, and that he may have been reading it wrong. Unfortunately, it wasn't a natural 1 on the Open Lock. It was a completely separate d% roll. Yes, that's right, the group had the pleasure of seeing the guy on the tools open the lock and break the tools at the same time! Suffice to say, we've started beating open cabinets. (I can't wait for one to blow up.) On the houserule note, I've already discovered several. Some of the gems: Full-attacks are always allowed as a full action, no matter what your BAB is. This confused me royally when my first cleric got to +6 BAB. One five-foot step is always allowed, even if you have already used a move or move-equivalent action. Specifically stated abilities of a familiar/animal companion/psicrystal may not function if the GM decides it would "mess up" his crafted encounter. These abilities may be gone at any time; there is no list of abilities that are always removed or always retained. Psionics are different. Read the FAQ on the Psionics board if you need more explanation. I know, technically not a houserule, but I'm in danger of being executed for breathing. No, I'm not exagerating. I have already started shopping for a replacement PC. The irony is a disovered these "houserules" when I borrowed the DMG to develop a separate campaign for my brother. Now I have to keep the two distinct in my mind, since I run my campaign as close to RAW as I understand. Thanks for the info. I'll ask about the situation next time we meet.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-05-07, 09:19 AM	One five-foot step is always allowed, even if you have already used a move or move-equivalent action. Seriously. Wow, this one is so open to abuse. Kiss AoO goodbye for a start, and I would think that the dance of PCs around NPCs to continually setup and re-setup flanking positions must be very amusing.
Augurer 04-05-07, 09:47 AM	Full-attacks are always allowed as a full action, no matter what your BAB is. This confused me royally when my first cleric got to +6 BAB. What's the house rule here? A Cleric with a BAB of +6 can Full Attack as a full-round action. The first attack is at +6, the second at +1. When is a full attack not allowed if you can perform a full-round action? I can't think of any circumstances, other than the obvious that no opponent is within 5' of your reach to attack. One five-foot step is always allowed, even if you have already used a move or move-equivalent action. You can always make a 5-foot step if you haven't moved during the round. Move-equivelant actions don't count as movement in terms of preventing a 5' step. You shouldn't get a 5' step if you've made any other movement during the round, however. Specifically stated abilities of a familiar/animal companion/psicrystal may not function if the GM decides it would "mess up" his crafted encounter. These abilities may be gone at any time; there is no list of abilities that are always removed or always retained. This rule is whack. That's not even a rule. It's simply GM Fiat, and stupid.
Tichondrus 04-05-07, 10:10 AM	The familiar and movement if alredy moved rules are just.... imbalancing?
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-05-07, 10:18 AM	The familiar and movement if alredy moved rules are just.... imbalancing? The word you are looking for is "stupid".
Tichondrus 04-05-07, 10:42 AM	The word you are looking for is "stupid". Not stupid, I try to be respectful as much as posible. The 'move even if moved' rule is simply surrealistic, even more surrealistic than making fire out of guano. The familiar one... it's lacking respect to your players, since they devote time, effort and even rescources to make the companion worth it, make the whole roleplaying on it and usually even have a slight dependance and trust in it as an NPC.
jbsaff 04-05-07, 12:04 PM	@Augurer: The full-attack house rule is that any character, even a level 1 character, may make a full attack as a full-round action. We had a fighter with cleave and a greatsword killing 3 goblins in one round at second level. (Attack 1: kill goblin. Cleave to kill second goblin. Attack 2: kill goblin 3.) He shouldn't have had the second attack, because by RAW a character cannot full attack until they have a BAB high enough to grant a second attack (+6/+1 in the BAB column). Thus when I hit level 8 as a Cleric, I was confused, because I had already spent 7 levels using full attacks. Fortunately, we didn't get much further on that campaign, but we were talking about making all of our attacks as a single standard action. To get a better idea, imagine fighting 20 goblins in a dungeon at a party ECL of 6 or so, with each goblin allowed to 5' step and full attack with their morningstars or bows. Yeah, they aren't that strong, but they have a potential 40 attacks in a round. We were lucky to have cover and we made some good Intimidation checks to frighten off some of the attackers.
Augurer 04-05-07, 12:42 PM	@Augurer: The full-attack house rule is that any character, even a level 1 character, may make a full attack as a full-round action. We had a fighter with cleave and a greatsword killing 3 goblins in one round at second level. (Attack 1: kill goblin. Cleave to kill second goblin. Attack 2: kill goblin 3.) He shouldn't have had the second attack, because by RAW a character cannot full attack until they have a BAB high enough to grant a second attack (+6/+1 in the BAB column). Thus when I hit level 8 as a Cleric, I was confused, because I had already spent 7 levels using full attacks. Fortunately, we didn't get much further on that campaign, but we were talking about making all of our attacks as a single standard action. To get a better idea, imagine fighting 20 goblins in a dungeon at a party ECL of 6 or so, with each goblin allowed to 5' step and full attack with their morningstars or bows. Yeah, they aren't that strong, but they have a potential 40 attacks in a round. We were lucky to have cover and we made some good Intimidation checks to frighten off some of the attackers. So Full Attack was somehow translated into meaning 2 attacks.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-05-07, 12:50 PM	Not stupid, I try to be respectful as much as posible. So do I, but these rules are still stupid. The DM may be smart as all get out, but even smart people can do stupid things. The 'move even if moved' rule is simply surrealistic, even more surrealistic than making fire out of guano. You are missing the joke, then. Guano is a source of nitrate needed to make gunpowder. The joke of needing guano as a spell compoenent for fireball is that the fireball is actually just the caster making his own gunpowder, not magic at all. Most spell components - at least from the original game - are actually bad jokes along these lines.
Praedoran 04-05-07, 06:00 PM	First off, it's not that harsh for the DM to rule that you broke the Theives' Tools upon a failed roll, why? Open Lock is a Trained Only skill. Heck, I'd let players try to Tumble without the skill, put first I'd let them know: "You stand a good chance of breaking your ass if you fail."
Magnus029 04-05-07, 06:24 PM	@Augurer: The full-attack house rule is that any character, even a level 1 character, may make a full attack as a full-round action. We had a fighter with cleave and a greatsword killing 3 goblins in one round at second level. (Attack 1: kill goblin. Cleave to kill second goblin. Attack 2: kill goblin 3.) He shouldn't have had the second attack, because by RAW a character cannot full attack until they have a BAB high enough to grant a second attack (+6/+1 in the BAB column). Thus when I hit level 8 as a Cleric, I was confused, because I had already spent 7 levels using full attacks. Fortunately, we didn't get much further on that campaign, but we were talking about making all of our attacks as a single standard action. To get a better idea, imagine fighting 20 goblins in a dungeon at a party ECL of 6 or so, with each goblin allowed to 5' step and full attack with their morningstars or bows. Yeah, they aren't that strong, but they have a potential 40 attacks in a round. We were lucky to have cover and we made some good Intimidation checks to frighten off some of the attackers. So lost... 20 goblins = 40 attacks, 2 attacks per goblin... are we looking at 40 goblins who are level 6 fighters? That might actually be challenging. Full attack for ANYONE with less than +6 Base Attack Bonus (not a full to hit bonus) = 1 attack. The only way to get more than 1 attack is with certain spells, class abilities, feats. As for the 5' step... if you have already MOVED, there is no 5ft step, if you have not moved but done a move action (but not actually left the starting square at all) then you can still 5ft step. "Specifically stated abilities of a familiar/animal companion/psicrystal may not function if the GM decides it would "mess up" his crafted encounter. These abilities may be gone at any time; there is no list of abilities that are always removed or always retained." That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. I had to like triple check... and the load of ** had me dying! I really don't know what to say, speechless even... ok not really. As far as being executed... I don't think it for breathing, I think its more for the above load of **. Oh and to the OP, someone not trained in LP using tools and they break, even if there is no mechanic for it, I can't think of a DM that wouldn't break a few tools, maybe try throwing a few ranks in Open Lock to avoid it. My buddy plays a ranger and constantly drops rank in it just in case the rogue does something stupid.
jbsaff 04-05-07, 06:55 PM	Actually, it would make sense if the person doing the opening had been trying to use Open Lock untrained. However, he wasn't. We don't allow the use of trained-only skills if the character doesn't have any ranks in the skill or the skill on the class list. So he specifically placed cross-class skill points into Open Lock in order to be able to use that skill. @Magnus029: On full attack - I was saying that my GM has an apparent house rule that allows any creature/character to make a full attack of at least 2 attacks even if their BAB does not allow it. Thus, 20 goblins * 2 attacks from broken houserule = 40 attacks. Same thing for the 5' step. The houserule says we can move to an enemy, attack, and 5' back, avoiding any AoOs from the defender. Once again, this is wrong. We shouldn't be able to, but the houserule says we can. Thanks for the info everyone. Now that I think about it, I'm afraid that the broken tools may be the least of my worries.
Cartigan 04-05-07, 07:23 PM	Except there is nothing to read wrong. He probably just picked it up from Oblivion or something. Neverwinter Nights.