Buddy System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buddy System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Callista
04-20-05, 07:09 AM I'm going to suggest this to my group next game, if you folks don't see anything wrong with it:

Our group has the problem of not being very strategically oriented (directly resulting from the fact that no one has died, except for one person who died for plot reasons and was raised right away; and one cohort who was also raised immediately). I'm really sick of this "every man grabbing kills for himself" battle approach... even the spellcasters are going it alone, and they never die 'cause the DM never targets them!

Problem is, I'll be DMing sometime soon; and I don't do that. If the red dragon realizes who just hit it with a cone of cold, you betcha that it will go for the mage. (Incidentally, I was the one whose monster killed the cohort...)

So, anyway, we have 6-8 players on each night we game. My suggestion, if they'll take it, is to have each spellcaster or archer team up with a tank who can protect them from monsters. If we have two rogues, then they could team up to get double sneak attacks from flanking; and not worrying about attacks of opportunity, the mages will be able to get more firepower out. Hopefully they will realize this sort of teamwork is actually beneficial to the amount of damage they do (which seems to be the only thing they are worried about, since they don't worry about getting killed!).

I'm really sick of the lack of strategy! And now that they've been playing for a year with no deaths, they're really, really complacent. If I were DMing, I could probably kick their butts with a CR below the party level. And so could, if they tried, the current DMs... which is what makes it so sad.

Anyway, is that sort of suggestion a good idea? Think they'll agree with it?
Solidcobra
04-20-05, 07:19 AM Yay for not reading posts. >_> you're NOT DMing. Then suggest it to the DM. And of course, play strategically. take the role of the team strategist. When you yell out orders every round, they might just follow them. If they don't, and get harmed, don't just yell at them. Give them such a mighty yelling that they'll shrink in their shoes until they're the size of fleas. >_>
VerinBlod
04-20-05, 08:23 AM Not that I don't like your idea (you can always suggest it to your group) but I would definitely lead by example. Have some low level creatures with good int beat the crap out of them. And explain their every move. For example the rogue tumbles past the group's fighter to get into a flanking position and delivers a sneak attack.

I have some good experience with this myself. My group wasn't that big on tactics except for the charge, I kill it. But showing them how they could win battles quicker and without less wounds, they start to implement strategies.
Morka
04-20-05, 10:55 AM Problem is, I'll be DMing sometime soon; and I don't do that. If the red dragon realizes who just hit it with a cone of cold, you betcha that it will go for the mage. (Incidentally, I was the one whose monster killed the cohort...)

If your going to be DM and play the monsters more intelligently that the players use to see, then it's fair to tell them before. If you want to include more strategy, your setting could reflect that. You could have all the players be member of the Nation Army, and be a small scouting unit. Just add a few NPCs who shall die in battles because they didn't listen orders, and the players should start to think a bit more.
Callista
04-20-05, 12:10 PM I wouldn't attempt to force them to do anything... just suggest it. They're fellow players (except when I DM), so I don't have any more authority than my character has over theirs (which is usually not much). Shouting orders during battle doesn't work on them, anyway, so I don't try it...
UltimateReality
04-21-05, 12:32 AM I'm gonna vouch for a previous poster and my fiance's advice: lead by example. Start explaining strategy out loud to the players when setting up for a battle. (Hopefully the DMs will pick up on it too and start playing the monsters/NPCs a bit smarter, making a more interesting game.)

If you show tactics and strategy and kick the encounter's butt, the players will, even if only subconsciously, remember how it happened. The DMs, if they're into providing a challenge, will pick up on it too.

You might want to print out a short little tactics cheat sheet that you did up "out of the blue" and show a copy to a fellow player. They may very well express interest. (This is what I did, except I really did need the cheat sheet for myself, too.)
Marcus Majarra
04-21-05, 01:13 AM The best things you can do in those cases is to put them in a lethal situation in which the party memebers have no choice but to be separated. My DM pulled one such encounter on my group once (but we have a tendency to work as a team), and it was a close call. We were inside a large enough room, faced with an Erinyes, a couple of Bone Devils, and some evil cultists. We were starting to spread out, to each deal with our respective targets (better to disable what we're good at disabling) when our foes pulled a couple of walls of ice between us, and separated us. We were caught with difficult opponents, unable to reach the other party members. The arcane casters were in a particularly tight spot, since they got locked into close quarters with one of the Bone Devils.

Divide and conquer, as they say. This is a great way to teach players the value of teamwork.
Judging Eagle
04-21-05, 09:04 AM Really?

The party wants the most kills and damage per round, but they won't work as a team to pull it off?

Oh that's hilarious as hell. When the party works as a team they can take on things that you'd never expect (8 lvl 3's with nothing magic except some low lvl armour easily took on a mountain bullette (ie. a bullette that lives in mountains.... >_>)that I had springing up from the ground to use it's Leap attack. The stupid ranger, bard and rogue with their amazing listen checks could tell wher it was coming from and the two wizards just fired off tons of scorching rays.

Oh, and if you want to REALLY scare the **** out of a party. Make them face a party of evil adventurers. Ones who act like a team (the tanks provoke AoOs/set up enemies for strikes by wizard or spring-attacker/hit enemy wizards/bards/rogues, the wizards buff allies/de-buff enemies/throw ranged spells, the clerics buff allies/wade in/keep tanks alive, the 'sneaks' delay their actions to spring attack drop tons of damage on the target that the tank set up for a kill and then fall back to do again, the bard/marshall keeps the party buffed.

Actually, in a party with lots of high charisma characters two levels of marshall for any non-wizard is mighty helpful since there are many minor and major auras and they can all overlap but any one marshall can only keep one active so with many people that are marshalls each one can choose a different aura; if they all use cloaks of charisma and two of them have demand Will and demand fortitude then no one needs cloaks of resistance (since they could potentially add up to +6 to all of their allies will and fort saves, this would stack with a vest of resitance).
Ut-Napishtim
04-21-05, 10:09 AM When you yell out orders every round, they might just follow them. If they don't, and get harmed, don't just yell at them. Give them such a mighty yelling that they'll shrink in their shoes until they're the size of fleas.

You know, I would say this is a really, really bad idea. If anyone tried this in a game I was playing in, I would promptly instruct them to go :censored: themselves. If it continued I'd kill their character off in their sleep, even if it meant taking an alignment hit. Oh, and woe be the day your plan doesn't work - then you'll really be in for it. All high and mighty shouting orders like you're the party's General or something when you were totally clueless doesn't carry well with the other peeps at the table.

Personally I'm a team player. I offer sugestions, and if the group decides to go with someone else's idea then I'll get on board with the rest of the group and give it an honest try. Nobody's right 100% of the time, and folks tend to give your comments more consideration when you offer them in a humble and reasonable manner rather than jamming them down their throats.

There's not really a whole lot you can do except talk to the DM because obviously there's no need for tactics with the way the game is run. My players use tactics because they know if they don't somebody's going to die. I'm that crazy DM that doesn't use a screen, the players watch the rolls and know no Deus ex Machina is going to save their bacon when they decide to charge a Dragon solo. Sure, they could get lucky and survive unscathed, or they could get critted and end up like the last PC who died in my game when he took 75 points of damage (knocking him to -15) in one round from a five-headed Pyrohydra.
:ghosted:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 04-20-05, 07:09 AM	I'm going to suggest this to my group next game, if you folks don't see anything wrong with it: Our group has the problem of not being very strategically oriented (directly resulting from the fact that no one has died, except for one person who died for plot reasons and was raised right away; and one cohort who was also raised immediately). I'm really sick of this "every man grabbing kills for himself" battle approach... even the spellcasters are going it alone, and they never die 'cause the DM never targets them! Problem is, I'll be DMing sometime soon; and I don't do that. If the red dragon realizes who just hit it with a cone of cold, you betcha that it will go for the mage. (Incidentally, I was the one whose monster killed the cohort...) So, anyway, we have 6-8 players on each night we game. My suggestion, if they'll take it, is to have each spellcaster or archer team up with a tank who can protect them from monsters. If we have two rogues, then they could team up to get double sneak attacks from flanking; and not worrying about attacks of opportunity, the mages will be able to get more firepower out. Hopefully they will realize this sort of teamwork is actually beneficial to the amount of damage they do (which seems to be the only thing they are worried about, since they don't worry about getting killed!). I'm really sick of the lack of strategy! And now that they've been playing for a year with no deaths, they're really, really complacent. If I were DMing, I could probably kick their butts with a CR below the party level. And so could, if they tried, the current DMs... which is what makes it so sad. Anyway, is that sort of suggestion a good idea? Think they'll agree with it?
Solidcobra 04-20-05, 07:19 AM	Yay for not reading posts. >_> you're NOT DMing. Then suggest it to the DM. And of course, play strategically. take the role of the team strategist. When you yell out orders every round, they might just follow them. If they don't, and get harmed, don't just yell at them. Give them such a mighty yelling that they'll shrink in their shoes until they're the size of fleas. >_>
VerinBlod 04-20-05, 08:23 AM	Not that I don't like your idea (you can always suggest it to your group) but I would definitely lead by example. Have some low level creatures with good int beat the crap out of them. And explain their every move. For example the rogue tumbles past the group's fighter to get into a flanking position and delivers a sneak attack. I have some good experience with this myself. My group wasn't that big on tactics except for the charge, I kill it. But showing them how they could win battles quicker and without less wounds, they start to implement strategies.
Morka 04-20-05, 10:55 AM	Problem is, I'll be DMing sometime soon; and I don't do that. If the red dragon realizes who just hit it with a cone of cold, you betcha that it will go for the mage. (Incidentally, I was the one whose monster killed the cohort...) If your going to be DM and play the monsters more intelligently that the players use to see, then it's fair to tell them before. If you want to include more strategy, your setting could reflect that. You could have all the players be member of the Nation Army, and be a small scouting unit. Just add a few NPCs who shall die in battles because they didn't listen orders, and the players should start to think a bit more.
Callista 04-20-05, 12:10 PM	I wouldn't attempt to force them to do anything... just suggest it. They're fellow players (except when I DM), so I don't have any more authority than my character has over theirs (which is usually not much). Shouting orders during battle doesn't work on them, anyway, so I don't try it...
UltimateReality 04-21-05, 12:32 AM	I'm gonna vouch for a previous poster and my fiance's advice: lead by example. Start explaining strategy out loud to the players when setting up for a battle. (Hopefully the DMs will pick up on it too and start playing the monsters/NPCs a bit smarter, making a more interesting game.) If you show tactics and strategy and kick the encounter's butt, the players will, even if only subconsciously, remember how it happened. The DMs, if they're into providing a challenge, will pick up on it too. You might want to print out a short little tactics cheat sheet that you did up "out of the blue" and show a copy to a fellow player. They may very well express interest. (This is what I did, except I really did need the cheat sheet for myself, too.)
Marcus Majarra 04-21-05, 01:13 AM	The best things you can do in those cases is to put them in a lethal situation in which the party memebers have no choice but to be separated. My DM pulled one such encounter on my group once (but we have a tendency to work as a team), and it was a close call. We were inside a large enough room, faced with an Erinyes, a couple of Bone Devils, and some evil cultists. We were starting to spread out, to each deal with our respective targets (better to disable what we're good at disabling) when our foes pulled a couple of walls of ice between us, and separated us. We were caught with difficult opponents, unable to reach the other party members. The arcane casters were in a particularly tight spot, since they got locked into close quarters with one of the Bone Devils. Divide and conquer, as they say. This is a great way to teach players the value of teamwork.
Judging Eagle 04-21-05, 09:04 AM	Really? The party wants the most kills and damage per round, but they won't work as a team to pull it off? Oh that's hilarious as hell. When the party works as a team they can take on things that you'd never expect (8 lvl 3's with nothing magic except some low lvl armour easily took on a mountain bullette (ie. a bullette that lives in mountains.... >_>)that I had springing up from the ground to use it's Leap attack. The stupid ranger, bard and rogue with their amazing listen checks could tell wher it was coming from and the two wizards just fired off tons of scorching rays. Oh, and if you want to REALLY scare the **** out of a party. Make them face a party of evil adventurers. Ones who act like a team (the tanks provoke AoOs/set up enemies for strikes by wizard or spring-attacker/hit enemy wizards/bards/rogues, the wizards buff allies/de-buff enemies/throw ranged spells, the clerics buff allies/wade in/keep tanks alive, the 'sneaks' delay their actions to spring attack drop tons of damage on the target that the tank set up for a kill and then fall back to do again, the bard/marshall keeps the party buffed. Actually, in a party with lots of high charisma characters two levels of marshall for any non-wizard is mighty helpful since there are many minor and major auras and they can all overlap but any one marshall can only keep one active so with many people that are marshalls each one can choose a different aura; if they all use cloaks of charisma and two of them have demand Will and demand fortitude then no one needs cloaks of resistance (since they could potentially add up to +6 to all of their allies will and fort saves, this would stack with a vest of resitance).
Ut-Napishtim 04-21-05, 10:09 AM	When you yell out orders every round, they might just follow them. If they don't, and get harmed, don't just yell at them. Give them such a mighty yelling that they'll shrink in their shoes until they're the size of fleas. You know, I would say this is a really, really bad idea. If anyone tried this in a game I was playing in, I would promptly instruct them to go :censored: themselves. If it continued I'd kill their character off in their sleep, even if it meant taking an alignment hit. Oh, and woe be the day your plan doesn't work - then you'll really be in for it. All high and mighty shouting orders like you're the party's General or something when you were totally clueless doesn't carry well with the other peeps at the table. Personally I'm a team player. I offer sugestions, and if the group decides to go with someone else's idea then I'll get on board with the rest of the group and give it an honest try. Nobody's right 100% of the time, and folks tend to give your comments more consideration when you offer them in a humble and reasonable manner rather than jamming them down their throats. There's not really a whole lot you can do except talk to the DM because obviously there's no need for tactics with the way the game is run. My players use tactics because they know if they don't somebody's going to die. I'm that crazy DM that doesn't use a screen, the players watch the rolls and know no Deus ex Machina is going to save their bacon when they decide to charge a Dragon solo. Sure, they could get lucky and survive unscathed, or they could get critted and end up like the last PC who died in my game when he took 75 points of damage (knocking him to -15) in one round from a five-headed Pyrohydra. :ghosted: