Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Johnny_Angel 10-17-07, 06:07 PM	I'm playing a sorcerer in my Tuesday game. The past few adventures that the party has completed have lead to the members of the party getting a fair amount of wealth -not enough to buy anything too crazy, but enough to buy some of the finer things in D&D life. Being that I don't rely on weapons or armor, I saved up enough to buy two heavy warhorses and a carriage for transportation. In the last session I was talking with a blacksmith about upgrading my carriage; armoring it a little bit, and making some other modifications to turn it into a more battle-worthy carriage since some of the roads through the realm are dangerous. For a lack of better words, I suppose you could say I want a "War Carriage." So, what are some modifications I could have done to a carriage to make it into more of a war machine? So far I've been considering the following: armored carriage body arrow slits so that those inside could fire out stronger wheels spiked wheels similar to what a war chariot might have a more rounded body to possibly deflect blows a trap door in the floor for quick escape or stealthy escape if needed That's all I can think of for now. I also figure that I'll need to get another horse to pull the carriage without slowing down the speed since it will be much heavier. What are some other things I should consider? Out of the things I've already mentioned, do any of them have any real merit? Edit: Also, at the moment, price isn't much of an issue because I cut a deal with a local lord to help pay for the carriage if I would carry out a mission for him, so I can afford things I normally wouldn't be able to. I'm sure there are limits though, so nothing too crazy. With that being said though, I've also been considering having a mini ballista mounted on the roof of the carriage as a primitive turret; making the carriage into a tank of sorts.
PhaedrusXY 10-17-07, 06:15 PM	I've been considering something like this for a game I'm in, also. My character has lots of craft ranks, and likes to build stuff, so I'll be making it myself. The main disadvantages I've thought of are as follows: not being able to take it into alot of places, like dungeons and indoor encounters. I can think of alot of situations where you might be forced to abandon it. If you just use standard horses to pull it, they will probably die quite frequently once you get past the first few levels, also. Because of these things, I think I'll just make mine out of wood, and make it cheap and "disposable", instead of investing a ton of money into it. Basically, it will be a wooden wagon with a wooden cage on it, which will keep me out of melee range, but allow me to "cast" out of it. If it gets destroyed, or I have to leave it, I won't be out anything but the time it took me to make it. (And my character is a warforged, so he can do it while the rest of the party is asleep.)
Johnny_Angel 10-17-07, 06:19 PM	I've considered trying to find some more exotic mounts to pull it, but I'm unsure of what to use. I know I can't take it underground; that's fine because it's not really intended for that. Right now I'm level 3, so it's basically a way for me to get safely from point A to point B. Most of the time there aren't random encounters, but I suppose it has some role play value to me as well; I went ahead and bought food and etc for the horses.
doomblade403x 10-17-07, 07:05 PM	This idea has some merit in alot of instances. A king or a caravan MIGHT use something like this to gaurd oneself or treasure, and it might be necessary. Travelling from place to place can be dangerous for certain, however you need to really look at the pros and cons of building this thing before you commit fully to the idea. Independant suspension would have to be in place for the wagon to even be workable, as well as no fewer than four horses. As pointed out already, it will have a limited use. Once your in a dungeon you will be on your own, and the wagon will have to be left. A good thief knows this, and he could easily steal your transport. Unless the carriage is built from the ground up, and the driver is also enclosed someone will have to be driving the wagon. Kill driver..... One could build an enclosure to protect the driver, and if you have ever seen the John Wayne movie "the war wagon" then you know it could be effective. However there is NO WAY to protect the mounts pulling the wagon. If someone wants you stopped all they have to do is kill the horses. Then you become a sitting duck. Ouch.... Point I'm making is that a subtle change to a common transport is likely better than a full scale makeover. A nice carriage would be good for road comfort and a moderate amount of proection. Not only that you could use it to carry supplies, and loots. Secret compartments for hiding stuff, and maybe an enchantement or so at later levels. Subtle things that wouldn't wave a red flag at people and call you out as an affluent adventurer. Let's be honest, who actually casts detect magic in a stable to see if mundane items are magical? NO ONE Protection from arrows: Obvious advantage. If you can protect yourself and the wagon from the standard archer, then you are gonna have a serious advantage. {A DM might not allow this bu I would at least try and sneak it under the wire.} Secret Chest: Permanant effect would allow you to put alot of goods in a small extraimensional space, and cutting the weight considerably. Enchanted Harnesses: Enchanted with Bulls Strength and Bears Endurance to keep your mounts healthy, and strong through their journey. Scrying: Protection from scrying, and perhaps you coul even mount a crystal ball or a scrying mirror in the confines in order to spy and such. If it were me and I was seriously looking for a way to protect myself, or spend some of my hard earned gold, I'd get myself a couple hirelings, and a well trained attack dog. The dog will serve his purpose as a sentry, and has the training to rip out the throat of mundane attackers. The hirelings are just some added muscle to guard your horses, supplies, and such while your on your crawl or whatever. Those are my little contributions, however for the most part I would wait till I could build a tower, or a keep before making a huge investment.
Amon_V 10-17-07, 11:37 PM	Ok. Try this. You get a Wagon made of Mithral, so its very light and very strong, like aluminum. You then cast ANIMATE OBJECT on it, giving it a high speed and the ability to move without a driver. After the AO is permanenced, you can use the Carriage to move at a run speed (4x) forever. If you can convince your DM to pull it off, take the Run feat and up it to 5x. Now you've got a self-controlled construct that moves 60' (Runs at 300'--in other word, about 40 MPH). You can further increase the cool factor of your ride by greasing over sticky terrain, casting fly!! on it, and installing a siege weapon on it to deal with pesky monsters. Just make sure to have a defense against Dispel Magic. Your wagon is large enough to hold the entire party, like an RV, and is able to keep moving 24/7, greatly accelerating overland travel (heck, going 40 MPH in the medieval era is awesome by itself.) I'm not sure how many weapons you can put on it, but Hardness 15 is going to account for a lot.
Voran 10-18-07, 01:13 AM	Alternately you go for a 'summonable' war carriage complete with its own spectral horse or something, that waits in some pocket dimension when not in use. One of the things I appreciated about the changes in Paladin/Special Mount thing was the ability to 'summon your stead' and not have to really worry about finding a place to tether it while you creep in a dungeon. I imagine through magic you can come up with something similar.
Andorxor 10-18-07, 03:09 AM	Ok. Try this. You get a Wagon made of Mithral, so its very light and very strong, like aluminum. You then cast ANIMATE OBJECT on it, giving it a high speed and the ability to move without a driver. After the AO is permanenced, you can use the Carriage to move at a run speed (4x) forever. If you can convince your DM to pull it off, take the Run feat and up it to 5x. Now you've got a self-controlled construct that moves 60' (Runs at 300'--in other word, about 40 MPH). You can further increase the cool factor of your ride by greasing over sticky terrain, casting fly!! on it, and installing a siege weapon on it to deal with pesky monsters. Just make sure to have a defense against Dispel Magic. Your wagon is large enough to hold the entire party, like an RV, and is able to keep moving 24/7, greatly accelerating overland travel (heck, going 40 MPH in the medieval era is awesome by itself.) I'm not sure how many weapons you can put on it, but Hardness 15 is going to account for a lot. Paint it black and add a improved ring of jumping :D
FrostWolf 10-18-07, 07:24 AM	Arms And Equipment Guide has everthing you'll want to make one. I've been able to even make a tank out og that book with a bit of immagination. (A self propelled wagon covered in armor with light balistas.) OR: If you are a wizard, build an Effigy Siege Crab. Now your able to take your ride under water (Effigy is a template that can be forund in Complete Arcana.)
Infernostrider 10-18-07, 12:43 PM	what i'm most worried about is the DM, if nothing else. i know that if i tried something like this i could put a 100 hirelings around it, and he'd have a dragon take it away. but if thats not the case, you can outfit the thing with enormously useful stuff, like a saddle of sustanence for your horses. could always use it in quests that make you protect Person X from point A to point B?
Johnny_Angel 10-18-07, 07:22 PM	A few good points were brought up -especially the "red flag" point. I suppose I should try to do something more subtle. As far as the DM, he's ok with it as long as I pay for it. The reason that I currently have a bit more leeway (other than the fact that I've been saving cash) is that I cut a deal with the local lord to help me out (diplomacy has its uses.) I don't think there's a lot of magic available in the town we're in; it's somewhat of a backwater town, but they have an abundance of natural resources. I seem to recall that -historically in our world- there was an oil or a substance that you could treat wood with to make it less flamable. That might be a good idea that could help protect the carriage and not be so noticable. Maybe it's an aesthetic thing, but I have my heart set on the new wheels. I also still think the arrow slits would be a good touch, but I won't go quite so overboard with the modifications. Also, out of curiosity: If I bought masterwork horshoes for the horses, does that do anything?
doomblade403x 10-20-07, 02:17 PM	Ok. Try this. You get a Wagon made of Mithral, so its very light and very strong, like aluminum. You then cast ANIMATE OBJECT on it, giving it a high speed and the ability to move without a driver. After the AO is permanenced, you can use the Carriage to move at a run speed (4x) forever. If you can convince your DM to pull it off, take the Run feat and up it to 5x. Now you've got a self-controlled construct that moves 60' (Runs at 300'--in other word, about 40 MPH). You can further increase the cool factor of your ride by greasing over sticky terrain, casting fly!! on it, and installing a siege weapon on it to deal with pesky monsters. Just make sure to have a defense against Dispel Magic. Your wagon is large enough to hold the entire party, like an RV, and is able to keep moving 24/7, greatly accelerating overland travel (heck, going 40 MPH in the medieval era is awesome by itself.) I'm not sure how many weapons you can put on it, but Hardness 15 is going to account for a lot. This is all fine and good. How are you going to control it? Stop it? Keep just any schmo from jumping in the driver seat and saying go? Like I said the war wagon would be great for a king or someone transporting alot of goods, but the expense for taking one guy, or even just a party from dungeon to dungeon is unreal. It seems like so much paranoia over nothing. A couple of armed guards on horses can protect alot better then penning yourself in a wagon. What if the wagon rolls over? You be screwed.
Passivearmada 10-20-07, 05:15 PM	I am so going to do this. But with my own little additions, teehee.
Amon_V 10-20-07, 07:53 PM	This is all fine and good. How are you going to control it? Stop it? Keep just any schmo from jumping in the driver seat and saying go? Like I said the war wagon would be great for a king or someone transporting alot of goods, but the expense for taking one guy, or even just a party from dungeon to dungeon is unreal. It seems like so much paranoia over nothing. A couple of armed guards on horses can protect alot better then penning yourself in a wagon. What if the wagon rolls over? You be screwed. This is admittedly more of a higher level idea. Mindlink to the Wagon, or telepathic bond, should keep the wagon going without someone taking over. The Real advantage of my idea is that the machine is: Way strong (Hardness 15, on top of 10d8 + 30 HP Something like 78 HP). That's a lot harder to take down than a wagon with horses. Way Fast (24/7 @ 40 mph is about 2/3rds the speed of modern travel.) Way moddable: Adding things like Fly or Water Walk greatly increases its ability to move, allowing you to go many other places with it. Indeed, if you Shrink it first, you could even Teleport it, or Plane Shift it. Shrink would drop it 50% in size, dropping it to Large Size---and possibly able to roll around IN a dungeon, it would also drop the weight down to 1/8th the regular weight, so It can go in a good Bag of Holding. That said, it's probably cheaper just to do it in a mundane fashion--I don't deny this. It's just a awesome investment to make and one that allows further upgrading (Psionic power to increase the Wagon's Hardness, Adamantine Plating, Energy Charging the Wagon, Etc)
DX2052 10-21-07, 12:46 AM	This is all fine and good. How are you going to control it? Stop it? Keep just any schmo from jumping in the driver seat and saying go? Like I said the war wagon would be great for a king or someone transporting alot of goods, but the expense for taking one guy, or even just a party from dungeon to dungeon is unreal. It seems like so much paranoia over nothing. A couple of armed guards on horses can protect alot better then penning yourself in a wagon. What if the wagon rolls over? You be screwed. Animated objects fight only as directed by the animator. So unless there the animator they won't be able to command it to go.
Mock26 10-21-07, 12:49 AM	To reduce weight you could build a small steel tower that is 6' in diameter and 16'-20' tall. Then, put the bottom of the tower in a portable hole and lay the portable hole out on the back of a wagon. Of course, you could also make the tower in such a shape and way that it provides nearly all of the armored protection for the wagon and all that weight is carried by the portable hole. If you are set on keeping your carriage you could modify the tower in a portable hole idea. You could put the portable on top of the carriage and use it primarily to hold the weight of the armor plating, as well as have a storage space. A better option would be to create a tower that is 6' in diameter and 10' tall. Make this tower hollow. Inside this tower biuld another tower that is 8' tall and on a winch system so that it can be raised up. This inner tower has a trapdoor in the floor and root. You can have arrow slits as well as a seat facing one side with a larger slit and holes for the reins. You can steer the wagon from there. With this version you could keep it in the portable hole until you get to your wagon, which is just a flat bed. You then lay out the portable hole, hop into the trap door on the roof, crank up the tower, lock it in place, and get driving. You could also have armor plating stored in the tower and you could then take out these plates and attach them to the rest of the wagon, such as over the wheels. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john. PS If you can make a folding boat why not make a folding wagon or a folding carriage? Make a mithril armored folding wagon with an enclosed drivers seat. The back side of the driving cabin is curved and has a secret door. The body of the wagon has flat area that is 6' in diameter. There is an armored cabin in the back that is similar to the front, with a secret door. When you unfold the wagon you plop down your portable hole in the back of the wagon, raise up your tower (which just happens to have two secret doors that line up the the two cabins on the wagon) and away you go. You could, conceivably, lift the protable hole while the tower is raised. When you get to the dungeon you lower the tower, fold up the portable hole, fold up the wagon, and go invade the homes of honest, hardworking, innocent monsters and steal their hard earned money. And, if you're high enough level, you have 4 Figurines of wondrous power (or two if you have the elephant) and you use half of them at any given time. You can then take your mounts with you).
Amon_V 10-21-07, 01:15 AM	So unless there the animator they won't be able to command it to go. Excellent Point. The Party would have to be the ones casting the Animate Object spell, perhaps by scroll and UMD if needed. But yeah, that solves the hijacking problem.
icuall 10-31-07, 04:22 PM	Just food for thought...some weaknesses If it is all armored, wouldn't some Call Lighting or other electricity attacks have a mass effect on all the occupants with the armor metal as a conduit? (Provided they are not immune to electricity) I think you would need to insulate the occupants some how. Also, if I was thinking of attacking the Armored Carriage, my first instinct would be to disable the wheels, then take my time to attack it. Hmmm, maybe throw some logs underneath and burn the occupants out from underneath. Of course, you have to keep adding logs to have the fire big enough to have an impact. It would be harder as you do you have arrow slits to attack from within the carriage. But it is possible to burn the occupants out.
PhaedrusXY 10-31-07, 06:27 PM	PS If you can make a folding boat why not make a folding wagon or a folding carriage? I really like this idea. I think I'll try something like this in the game I'm in. The figurines of wonderous power to pull it is a good idea, too. Heck, maybe I'll make the whole thing a figurine of wonderous power. The Ironwood Stagecoach, or something, complete with four Phantom Steeds to pull it. :D How about this: Ironwood Carriage This small wooden carriage can turn into a real carriage made of ironwood once per day for up to 12 hours. It comes complete with four Phantom Steeds to pull it and an Unseen Servant to drive it. The steeds have statistics appropriate for Phantom Steeds created by a 12th level caster. The carriage and its occupants also benefit from the steeds' Air Walk and other powers. The interior of the carriage can hold up to four medium sized occupants, with room for one more in the seat next to the driver (which is outside the enclosed carriage body). The carriage has a door on each side which can be locked from the inside. There are barred windows on all four sides which function as arrow slits, and a trapdoor on both the floor and the roof which can only be opened or closed from the inside. Each wall of the coach, including the floor and roof, is made of ironwood and has 90 hit points, hardness 10, and a break DC of 30. If any of the walls, floor, or roof are broken, the magic of the coach is destroyed. Damage to the coach can be repaired via spells or powers that can repair constructs or magic items, or by the use of Craft (Blacksmithing, Armorsmithing, or Woodworking). Using a craft skill, each 10 hit points of repair costs 100 gold pieces and takes 1 hour. Moderate transmutation; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, Ironwood, Phantom Steed, Unseen Servant, creator must have 5 ranks in the Craft (woodworking) skill; Price 20,000 gp; Weight 4 lb. I started a thread for this item here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=946581