Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SiegeSage 01-09-04, 06:10 PM	To those of you who have just jumped in to this harrowing tale theshold just bit the dust last night- I'm still in search of advice and the thread is a good read, but blindly posting tactical help at this point is of almost no use. Well met to all, I and my party seem to have encountered a bit of a bind. We have discovered that between 100,000 and 150,000 Goblins. We are a party of 5th level characters and have been asked to bring ideas before the leaders of the town to figure out how to stop them. The town of Threshold is laid out as follows: Fields extend to a distance of 15-20 miles around the town, the fields are worked by peasant farmers who will be evacuated. The town has an outer and inner wall curving around on three sides and a river covers the fourth (east) side. The outer wall is approximately 23 feet high and 3 feet thick, with three large gates on the north, south, and west. There is a second, inner wall that holds the nicer parts of town about 1/4 mile inside the outer wall, also with three gates and a wall 23 feet high and 3 feet thick. The inner city holds a prominent Mages School and has two bridges leading to a larg(ish) unwalled island on which sits the fortress-like Temple of Thor. The School has 11 mid-high level teachers and many 25 students of very low to low level. The town Hall is also located here, as is the fishing/dock district. The temple has been described as self sufficient, and may be our last line of defence. A final Point is that Threshold has a MASSIVE sewer system that is 5 levels deep and stretches all over the town and even outside it. It is a relic from the ancient capitol city that once stood there. We have three days before the Goblins arrive at the town and have the following Objectives: (in order of priority) 1. Figure out how to evacuate 13,000 Noncombatants 2. Buy enough time for the evacuation of the approximately 13,000 non combatants then lead a tactical retreat, leaving the goblins to sack the city. (This is the expected outcome) Preferred Outcome: 3(a) Hold off the siege until a relief force can arrive (unknown length of time). 3(b) Defeat the Goblin Horde and send it back into the northlands The Town has the following Resources: 1. A draft will raise 7,000 troops from the populace (every male from age 12 to 50) 2. A good number of High level Characters, and a couple Epic or near epic characters. 3. 50,000gp in resources (maybe a bit more, magic items are kinda seperate form that total - but large quantities of them probably aren't, due to the need to assemble them from all over the continent because of time) 4. A LARGE temple dedicated to Thor (God of War and Strength) - Located on an island with two bridges linking it to the mainland. Approximately 60 clerics stay there (though only three above 5th level) 5. One of the High level Characters is a thief who is immune to magic due to an accident (permanent personal Antimagic field) 6. Good political Connections to Power centers across the world (translate to If it exists we might be able to get our hands on it - this town is a Mecca for adventurers and they have good connections) 7. My character happens to be a trained siege Engineer (Never thought I'd get to use it lol) and a 5th level wizard. 8. Several High level Craftsmen. 9. A Crazy Goblin Tinkerer who has a gyrocopter and advanced technical knowledge. Expected Goblin Tactics: 1. Mid- High level characters 2. Worg Cavalry 3. Monstrous Spider Cavalry 4. Highly Organized, Intelligent Tactics That's about it - the next session is this upcoming tuesday. Any thoughts?
Arwyn_The_Assassin 01-09-04, 06:31 PM	:eek: that's really all I have to say..... but here are some ideas none the less.... ::thinks:: there are a number of things you could try... First of all...you could set alchemical or magic traps a long ways a way...maybe some that would explode and send them into the sewer system maybe? That's found to get rid of a few... next set up defences you could dig pits and trenches with and mounds so it looks like this _/\__/\__/\ ...with the straigh lines being where you dig into the ground that should slow them down...until at least they can blast throught it. or something... I would make these for at least 3/4 of a mile maybe more if you have time...set up calvary spikes and set them...massivly train troops use the clerics to heal and cast spells as there seems to be an awful lot of them. You could try an ambush...don't know how well it will work...but use every resourse you have including the sewers...hide troops in the sewers maybe a "shock" troops corp..where small groups of higher level characters hide out for a while and attack (to regain the city) one the goblins have settled in Anyways just some thoughts
gleep 01-09-04, 07:26 PM	With only three days, you're in a bit of a bind. I have a few suggestions though. Some may not be doable because of PC/NPC alignments. First, cripple the goblin's supplies. Fireballs, cloudkill, fire elementals, etc... whatever you can do to mess with them, especially the food. If they have water supplies, destroy them. Then, poison every well, creek, etc for as far around the town as you can. Do the same with livestock and other food sources. Don't salt the ground, but burn what crops you can't get into the town. Even better if the wind is blowing towards the goblins (air elementals can help with this). As for the poison, you have lots of crud in the sewers that'll work. Use earth elementals to build ramparts and trenches around the town. The objective here is to form paths of least resistence for the goblins to tend to charge down. Put in as many traps as you can... and put in as many fake traps as you can. Every one is a delay. Heh, if you can get the earth elementals to hollow out big cavities that can be collapsed under the goblins, even better. Wall of Stone, and lots of it, can be a handy way of reinforcing the town walls. Maybe you'll have enough casters to bump those things up to 50-100', though I doubt it. If not, use walls of stone/iron/etc along the streets and to corden off areas inside the town. Make the place a maze so the goblin troops are less effective. During the attack, wall of fire is your friend. Use it to section off and contain the army as well as damaging them. Maybe you can get a few wants of firewall for the town. Same goes for lots of summoned critters. Illusions of better battlements, defenses, and more defenders can help out too. While the illusions may be easily disbelieved, every second they are believed is a couple more defender arrows that can hit the goblins. When dealing with a force of that size, you want as few of them to be able to attack any one spot as possible. Misdirect, contain, channel, and confuse. Probably the best thing to do though is get a couple of the high-level wizards, or pull in some favors, and nuke the goblin leadership while they're still days away. Fireball, cloudkill, phantasmal kill, sneak up on while invisible and backstab, etc anyone that even looks like they're thinking about taking charge. PS: Don't forget about 200,000 arrows. :D --gleep
Winternova 01-09-04, 07:28 PM	Magic - if they're dumb enough, they might exhaust some of their resources against illusory foes, should the spell prove convincing enough. There's always fireball, and flaming sphere, and all manners of interesting area spells that could at the very least buy some time, or cause a panic.
Lord Darkblade 01-09-04, 07:40 PM	Trenches and traps on the fields, lines with diamond formations to concentrate the enemy into areas so that they have less room to manoeuvre compared to yourselves. As they approach retreat, use multiple bow armed units to shoot at them as they approach, and fall back, guard each bow armed unit with a few "sacraficial" swordsmen. Defend the walls for as long as possible, then fall back to another defended position and hold it till night fall, leave a few troops there and light many fires and leave gas traps... as they breach the final wall set off the traps and run, hopefully the final few defenders will get away however if not then the losses are not major as your main force is falling back with the column of refugees. On the way out setup barricades, as many as possible maybe a mile apart (a good sprint on a horse), and have a small force (100 or so men) moving back and setting up more barricades. Think of it as a rolling wall strategy as you fall back. You cannot really win however if set up right you can take out massive numbers of the enemy and confuse them into wasting time waiting to assault the barricades at dawn or a better time than at night. If you can gas is a good way to take out the enemy and you can leave it set up at the barricades as you run... make the enemy fear you.
Tycho Eharb 01-09-04, 08:04 PM	Walls of Fire turned the "wrong way". The goblins will approach the "huge flaming thing" with care, realise there is little heat coming from it and charge right through it. If you have lots of Silence spells on the other side, the Goblins in the back won't realise that the vanguard is dying. Or just use the high level wizards and clerics to wipe out the invaders. There will probably be a good supply of wands and scrolls in the wizards' and clerics' storerooms. Comandeer them. 50 Wands of Fireball is a good set of destruction. 20 or so Scrolls of Summon Monster IV is also good. Set any exceptional NPCs the role of killing the commander of the invading goblins. It shouldn't be too hard... Scry, Teleport x 2 and a quick surgical strike. Then kill the second in command... the luitenants and the standard-bearers too. Sow confusion, and kill as many as you can. Arm all the troops with bows or crossbows and a shortsword. You don't want 150,000 goblins to close for meele, kill them from afar.
E-Vile 01-09-04, 08:22 PM	Allow them to enter the city but leave them a little surprise for when they've entered: 50k gp worth of gunpowder, nails and barrels. Can you say BOOM?:devil:
phosis21 01-09-04, 10:05 PM	Hmmm...you need to think of this in a numbers term, yes realistically all of these things would be what you would do, and honestly, i suggest you do them all... BUT if you have Epic level characters in your city all you have to do is throw them at the Goblins, they wont be able to to touch them. Wizards can cast things like Wall of Force, Searing Ray (commanders) and Meteor Strike...and if you have BOVD...well there are some fun spells in there too. Epic clerics can cast things like Implosion, Harm etc that kill any goblin with a PC level in short order. (and if they're a cleric worth thier salt they have Ranged Spell...30 feet harm, OH YEA!) The Melee Epics...the goblins very simply cant hit them, even with a 20 they can't crit so they do 1d6 of damage on a Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger or Paladin with an AC in the 30's 5 attacks (possibly 10...EPIC RANGER + TWF MMMM) and they can literally carve out sections of the Goblin army...perhaps its because i have a Ranger/Fighter/Assassin/Planar Champion (23 lvl) involved in a Deific Civil war spanning several thousand Material Primes and i havn't fought anything with a CR lower than a Chichamec in quite some time, but i have no respect for the Goblins, i'm sure given time i could kill them all and not have leveled... By the way, anyone with Great Cleave can kill at least 8 goblins every six seconds...supreme cleave can kill as manny as 11...i think. With a decent STR and BAB of 5 you can easily hit thier AC of 14. With goblins its gonna be Area affect and sheer number of attacks. To be totally honest, as long as no one without PC levels fights i'm pretty cure you can effect a rout, Goblins are stupid, have no honor nor desire to fight and are absolute Sh*t in combat anyway, they arent even a whole number on the CR chart. As a matter of fact, a 1st level commoner is a Tough Encounter for a Goblin, 7000 soldiers arrayed in four ranks as follows charging the formations flanks while the PC's hit thier center or other flank...or REAR! you can rout thier buts pretty easily (toss in a few Fear spells) 1st rank = large Shield and Sword, 2nd Rank = Long Spear, 3rd Rank=Pike 4th Rank=Pike (fill in casualties.) All these people suggest falling back and Helms Deep esq strategies, and i can certainly agree...i dunno perhaps its cause i dont like Retreating, but i'm pretty damn positive with the help of all those High Level and Epic Level PC's you can drop that horde with no problem (and no doubt you'll level at least twice) Joe
E-Vile 01-09-04, 10:17 PM	Originally posted by phosis21 By the way, anyone with Great Cleave can kill at least 8 goblins every six seconds...supreme cleave can kill as manny as 11...i think. With a decent STR and BAB of 5 you can easily hit thier AC of 14. Quick calculation: a force of 150k goblins would be wiped out within an hour by 23 characters with supreme cleave, :D Oh, and if you equip them with spiked chains they can kill up to 25 a turn, assuming no crit failures (whirlwind attack with reach, the second row has 16 goblins, and great cleave the inner row of 9. And this is without supreme cleave. Then it takes only ten warriors an hour :cool:
was_fired 01-09-04, 10:40 PM	If your DM doesn't play with the triple 20 is an instant kill I would say you could take them out with just the epics. With that and you actually have to use tactics since that 1/8,000 chance of instant death would be rather certain in these conditions.
AlexBurel 01-09-04, 11:14 PM	Could you give us some info on local terrain? It can prove a valuable ally in tactics. For example, one might be able to divert a river to flood the goblin army or bring down a local mountain on their heads. Alternitivly, you could get the high level magic users to surround the entire town with prismatic walls. That'd be an effective roadblock.
SiegeSage 01-09-04, 11:29 PM	Okay after talking with the DM it seems like the whole damn thing is rigged. All we get to do is make catapults and such - after the clarification the task is - How can we best help in the defense of the town. Any ideas on that? and as for the Epic characters all we have is one Epic Sorc who probably won't do much to help us, so count that out. @ New order of Business: How do a party of 5th level characters contribute in a meaningful way to the defense of the town.
ManTimeForgot 01-09-04, 11:51 PM	HEY GENIUSES!!!! The dude said 5TH LEVEL CHARACTERS. Not omg we are like an epic level group and can use some hints on what sort of L33T tactics to use which will allows us to randomly slaughter 150,000 goblins in like the coolest manner. No. This dude wants to know if there is a damn thing he can do with his 5th level group that might actually dent 150,000 goblins. First off with only three days to work with you have very little options. If you cannot setup "landmine" defenses, then you are forced to recourse to taking the fight to the goblins. Examples of "landmine" defenses which are available to 5th level characters: Caltrops, surrounding the town with trenches (spikes on the bottom are good too), and hurdles (like track and field) which requires the goblins to either take down the hurdles or try and move over each and every hurdle. With that in mind, if the "landmine" defenses won't prove to be enough because the archery available in the town isn't sufficient (as in you don't have enough heavy crossbows and longbows to go around), then you will have to consider taking the battle to the goblins. At this point I hope you had better know where in the he!! the goblins lair themselves. If these are mountain dwelling goblins, then you had better cause an avalanche. You said you have access to a mage school right? Have the entire academy climb (fly) up to the top of the mountain, and then have them all use shout (or ghost sound for those not high enough to shout) in unison. This should be enough to cause an avalanche. If they are cave dwelling goblins, then consider having the mages scry the locations of the exit locations for these caves, and then collapsing the entrances/exits. If they are moutain goblins, and you cannot avalanche them, then you might have to engage in hit and run tactics skirmish them maybe? And if you have an especially bold, and noble you character you might consider using the tactic out of the short story "By the Measure." (AWESOME story btw). Have one of your characters get infected with a serious disease which is communicable. Transport this character to the goblin's encampment. Make sure he spends as much time with the goblins as possible, which should get them all infected. A diseased army quickly runs out of provisions and medical supplies, which means that they will be routed shortly enough. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
phosis21 01-09-04, 11:59 PM	ok, well thats a whole different equation, still have the Epic Sorc toss Prismatic walls around important parts of the city/the gates and kill em with crossbows. He can fireball thier siege equipment and meteor storm/lightning bolt the important characters. He's still the key to your defense, and even without Epic characters, anyone with Class Levels can contribute far more than NPC Class warriors can. Even mid level wizards can cast Fireball or other area effect spells, even if he rolled all ones, a fireball will kill everygoblin caught within the spells radius, 5d6 all ones = 5, Goblins have 4 hit points, so those that made thier save wouldnt die...pfft. If you have them all cast simultaneously to just wipe out an entire couple ranks of Goblins that will slow down thier impotis to fight. Goblin #1: CHAAARGE! (30 wizards cast fireballs at perfect invervals drawing a straigh line along the first 6 ranks of goblins. When the smoke clears the first 6 ranks are dead.) Goblin #6058: RUN AWAY, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE! Heavy Cavalry hidden in woods near reatreating goblins : YES YOU ARE HAHAHAH! if it were just the 5 of you, i'd say run like hell, but with the resources available to you (especially 7000 militia and these two rather formidable walls) i'm still confident you can win this battle no problem, casualties will be there, i assure you they will, but you will emerge bloody and victorious. Joe
primemover003 01-10-04, 12:41 AM	Honestly leave the defense of the town to it's higher level defenders and HUNT THE HEAD. 150,000 goblins have a hard time concealing their troop movements. If you can take out the tribal leaders, the shamans, and some of their champions you can demoralize the average troops enough to scatter them back to their warrens. You have to hit fast and hit HARD! Good Luck Buck-O!
Wizard 01-10-04, 12:43 AM	The metagaming solution---go to work demolishing the average troops, grab the xp, and work your way up through the army. The DM almost certainly will screw you over, though, and probably deservedly. But if it works, you may be able to draw off a SIZABLE portion of the troops to hunt you, perhaps giving the non-combatants more time to evacuate.
green_yawgmoth 01-10-04, 12:49 AM	Fully-charged wand of Fireball. Fire at will (lol pun). Scroll of Meteor Swarm. Kaboom. Find a level 18 sorcerer and ask him to cast Meteor Swarm about 4-5 times.
p0cky 01-10-04, 01:15 AM	If you can get the sorcer to help you, the battle will be much easier (summon some huge demons, fire balls and nice things). What is his reason for not helping? I think he would want to help defend his town and beable to do much. What could 5th level characters do? Raiding parties to cut off supply lines and set fires. More or less, little things like that, but they will add up. Hee hee...this is going to be a fun thing to do in my Rokugan camapin.... :angel:
SnowbearK 01-10-04, 01:17 AM	Originally posted by ManTimeForgot HEY GENIUSES!!!! The dude said 5TH LEVEL CHARACTERS. Not omg we are like an epic level group and can use some hints on what sort of L33T tactics to use which will allows us to randomly slaughter 150,000 goblins in like the coolest manner. No. This dude wants to know if there is a damn thing he can do with his 5th level group that might actually dent 150,000 goblins. Hey Jackass... Originally posted by SiegeSage The Town has the following Resources: 2. A good number of High level Characters, and a couple Epic or near epic characters. Aside from that, Summon Monster, Elemental Swarms, Meteor swarms, walls of Fire, etc. All good things. In fact, a single casting of Earth Elemental Swarm will easily decimate the goblin army all by itself. The magic-immune thief would do best to infiltrate and destroy any magic using goblin leaders and steal magical gear from them -- assuming he has a way to detect magic as well, which he probably does not. As for what your own party can do, evacuation. During any large-scale evacuation, there will be looters, jerks, and murders. Your party would be best suited (in the "chain of command") to assisting the evacuation efforts. That's the "realistic" version, because let's face it, if you have High level and possibly Epic characters in a city, even though they may not know what a "level" is or "hp" or whatnot, they're still likely to say screw this, I'm in charge or my fav, "Nobody steps on a church in MY town!" and be able to back it up.
wdarkk 01-10-04, 01:27 AM	If you've got a high-level caster, use Horrid Wilting. At 16th level, a Horrid Wilting _will_ kill every MM goblin it targets even if the caster rolls all 1s and the goblins all roll 20s. Also, it would have a range of 1040 ft, and can target any goblin within 60 ft of another goblin. You could easily take the entire army out in one casting.
ChaoticGod 01-10-04, 06:28 AM	The goblins' strength is their (very) superior numbers. That is probably the only reason they are attacking. They believe that it will be an easy victory. Teach them otherwise. Go and capture (as in alive) some goblin scouts. Preferably ones that understand Common. Put them through the whole alien abduction treatment. Let them watch a couple of Major Images doing a scene. One Image is a hapless goblin just like them. The other is a soulsucking incorporeal 'thing' that sucks the 'goblin' dry leaving only a dry husk. Make it horrific, slow and agonizing with lots of screaming in goblinoid. Have wizards stand near by and 'discuss' how the experiment is going in Common. "Yes these new undead seem to meet our needs nicely. They get stronger with each kill and actively seek out the lifeforce of goblins. We expect the goblin army to suffer 76% casualites in the first 10 minutes of engagement. " Let the goblins 'escape' one at a time. Set things up so they witness more 'goblins' being consumed by 'wraiths' to give each of them the 'sole survivor' outlook. The stories they will tell. If you can find any clerics willing to cast Contagion you might let a few goblins take a little surprise home with them. Something nasty and contagious. Remember to have some Remove Disease spells ready to cure anyone exposed to your goblin carriers. Disease should spread through 150K goblin troops living in filth like wild fire. Now go and kill some goblins. Bring their bodies back and remove their equipment. Slowly bake the bodies until the corpses are powder dry. Put the equipment back on them, even their valuables (within reason). Poison any supplies they were carrying (goblins will scavenge anything). Then take the bodies back to their campsite and "set the scene". Stories are one thing. Finding your dead buddies in a state that suggests a horrible death thats waiting for you next is another. These tactics may cause some rampant desertion among the goblin army. While they may not stop the goblin attack they may lessen their numbers and/ or buy you more time to evacuate your civies.
Kem 01-10-04, 02:43 PM	Originally posted by wdarkk If you've got a high-level caster, use Horrid Wilting. At 16th level, a Horrid Wilting _will_ kill every MM goblin it targets even if the caster rolls all 1s and the goblins all roll 20s. Also, it would have a range of 1040 ft, and can target any goblin within 60 ft of another goblin. You could easily take the entire army out in one casting. Actually all the targets have to be within 60' of all the other targets.
Willie the Duck 01-10-04, 03:58 PM	first off, if there are high-level characters, what are you doing leading this? Second, D&D is set up so that high level spellcasters can whip butt over hundreds of 0level opponents. a flying imp. invisible wizard can cloudkill an entire army before they can do anything about it.
Landor 01-10-04, 04:32 PM	Seriously. Suicide bombers.
phosis21 01-10-04, 04:37 PM	ChaoticGod...you are by far the coolest and most evil person i have ever met. On one hand they are goblins and dont deserve pity...but man, that was awesome...i mean terrible...no who am i kidding, that was f***ing awesome. Hey 5th level guy...yea do what this guy said, it is clearly the best option...just have one of the more neutral guys suggest it. Joe
UZI 01-10-04, 06:29 PM	Evacuate. 100000 to 150000 is insanely huge (likely, they won't have enough supplies anyway, and the surrounding countryside wouldn't be able to support a force that large by pillaging). Most ancient armies were on the order of 6000 men per legion. The Roman empire tended to field around 20 legions on average, giving them 180000 troops across the empire. At the most, they'd bring maybe two consular armies to bear at once (about 24000 troops). This was usually sufficient to bring any ancient city to submission. But, if you must try and fight, infiltration to get close to the commanders is best. Attack the camps at night. Heavy fortifications. Destroy the crops so that the army has nothing to pillage and would be likely to end a seige early.
heysoos 01-10-04, 06:34 PM	You say that the goblins have high level characters. If this include any epics, you are in for the fight of your lives. In this situation, you would have to think like the friendly kobold tribe: outnumbered and outgunned, you'll have to use your wits to survive. You could always try a retreat into the sewers, making sure to bring enough food. Destroy most of the entrances, making sure to leave a few open so that you can control the ones the goblins choose and prevent them from immeadiately beginning scattered excavation efforts. Get to the deepest levels possible, and line every path with booby traps, spell traps, and the like. Lure large contigents in, and cave in the sewer behind them and either deal with them or let them starve. Lead them into dead ends, then flood that section. Convince your DM to let fireballs expand to fill an area, and overload on those. Some melee ambushes on scouts or smalled parties would be good too, as would illusory walls or floors. A room with Darkness and Silence covering a long drop could kill entire contigents of goblins. If you have the resources, teleport their heads up top. You might be able to delay the goblins long enough to get outside the city via the sewers.
elfnecro 01-10-04, 06:35 PM	It seems as if these goblins may be unstoppable. Not for the scorched earth tactic. Burn the castle, and burn anything that may be of use to the invading goblins if they are indeed too strong. Have a few raiding parties pick off a few to get morale down. A few weeks, the ruler of the castle is sitting at an aligned monarch's palace and the goblin leader's head is rolling around somewhere while the rest of the troop run for home and food. Scorched Earth tactics copyright Russia 1810's and 1940's.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-10-04, 07:29 PM	Hit and run tactics are pretty much your only method of survival. Do not take prisoners and do not leave any goblins that encounter you alive. Dispose of all bodies so spells like speak with dead cannot be employed. Attempt to demoralize your enemy. Use high-level spellcasters to thin the goblin's forces as much as you can.
BenjCano 01-10-04, 07:54 PM	<clears throat and grabs the MM> Ahem. "Bronze dragons...are fascinated by warfare, eagerly joining an army for a just cause - and good pay." Sounds like what you need is to recruit (bribe) a couple of bronzes of at least young adult age. A few passes overhead means the goblins are going to be needing Will saves against 23 (or more) to avoid the fearful presence aura. Ahhh....4d6 rounds of panic. Not to mention the possibilities that repulsion gas offers. Dragons. Is there any problem they can't solve?
paintedmask2 01-10-04, 07:54 PM	Stolen from the Krondor books; fill all of the sewers with naptha gas... when they sack the city, simply light it and blow the whole thing sky high. Hmmmmm... Try to get some higher level dwarven defenders; the perfect way to plug any holes in your defences. Give him a spiked chain, Improved Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Great Cleave, and Whirlwind Attack, and there aint nothing getting through that! Another problem you're going to have to deal with; what the **** are you going to do with 150,000 rotting goblin corpses? I hope you have access to a whole load of paladin's and clerics, because disease is going to be rampant, especially if you go the plague route suggested above. You'll need to level a whole forest just to cremate the little buggers. Or pick up a few dozen matocks of the titan to dig mass graves. I suppose you could chuck 'em through a gate spell.
heysoos 01-10-04, 09:05 PM	Originally posted by BenjCano <clears throat and grabs the MM> Ahem. "Bronze dragons...are fascinated by warfare, eagerly joining an army for a just cause - and good pay." Sounds like what you need is to recruit (bribe) a couple of bronzes of at least young adult age. A few passes overhead means the goblins are going to be needing Will saves against 23 (or more) to avoid the fearful presence aura. Ahhh....4d6 rounds of panic. Not to mention the possibilities that repulsion gas offers. Dragons. Is there any problem they can't solve? That might be more risky than you can imagine. If you keep the conflict to man against goblin, the goblins might get dismayed and moved on. But if their scrying (which a high level monstrous army assuredly has) shows bronze dragons bolstering the defenses, sane goblins should send for some blacks, whites, and any color in the rainbow. You just might find your town being turned in the first battlefield of Armageddon.
goro 01-10-04, 09:18 PM	First off, Paintedmask2, Feist is an incredible writer. Second, scorched earth policy all the way. Leave a token force behind to maintain the illusion of a defence while you get as much of a head start as possible on the evacuation. Leave behind a series of traps that will trigger in sequence when tripped by the enemy, burning the town, and a good chunk of their army with it. Burn all bridges behind you and set engineers to destroy any places within ten miles where they can ford the river. With luck, with out a fight to spur them on the structure of the goblin army will breakdown and the pursuit will be limited to a few thousand goblins.
p0cky 01-10-04, 09:21 PM	Originally posted by heysoos That might be more risky than you can imagine. If you keep the conflict to man against goblin, the goblins might get dismayed and moved on. But if their scrying (which a high level monstrous army assuredly has) shows bronze dragons bolstering the defenses, sane goblins should send for some blacks, whites, and any color in the rainbow. You just might find your town being turned in the first battlefield of Armageddon. Yeah, but the goblins will die the process! He never said that he must live. :D My other idea was "The Seven Samurai" but on a larger scale. Then I thought that would...fail...horribly... But are goblins on good terms with dragons?
goro 01-10-04, 10:03 PM	Even if the goblins aren't on good terms with dragons, the presence of bronze dragons would only atract unwanted attention to the situation aka..BBEG who would attempt to take control of the situation and spread the conflict to neighboring towns and kingdoms.
Xavim 01-10-04, 10:24 PM	You could always use spawning undead like ghouls to route the entire army. Shadows are my favourites. Then you have to worry about 150,000 spawning undead... But yeah your answer is demons. Lot's of Demons.
heysoos 01-10-04, 10:37 PM	Originally posted by p0cky But are goblins on good terms with dragons? Maybe their shared alignments don't automatically put them on allied status, but neither does this unknown-race city have a healthy relationship with the neighborhood gold/silver/bronze brood. And as goro said, the chromatics or some other evil entity may seize the opportunity to smash the metallics' ambitions. Edit: about the seven samurai plan, that doesn't translate too well against 150,000 goblins. ;)
p0cky 01-10-04, 10:55 PM	Originally posted by heysoos about the seven samurai plan, that doesn't translate too well against 150,000 goblins. ;) Yeah, the bandits got Gorobei AND that drunk dude (I fogot his name...I am shamed... :( ) So the battle could easily turn out to be bigger foces fighting against each other. Bottom: Humans vs Goblins Gold Dragon vs Black Angels vs Demons Good Gods vs. Evil Gods Hippos vs. Koallas Top *sigh* 21,000 hippos defending a castle against 150,000 Koallas engaged in Melee. Where will it end. Tarrasque vs Cthulhu, the final showdown?
Vanigo 01-11-04, 03:20 AM	When you say that the goblin's tactics include "Mid- High level characters," what do you mean? Are there a bunch of mid-high level goblins scattered througout the horde? Do they have specialist teams of mid-high level characters? Are the leaders mid-high level? Are all the goblins mid-high level? How high is mid-high? Twelveish? Sixteenish? Eightish? What classes are most of them? Also: Are there any mountain passes between the goblins and the city? If so, two teleports and an earthquake will stop the horde in its tracks. How big is the wizard guild? How powerful are the higher-ups? Fire trap on a thin clay disk, set to go off when the disk breaks, makes a nice land mine. Seed the road with as many of these as possible. They won't cause significant casualties, but they'll do a quite a number on morale, and make the front ranks a really unpopular place to be. The spider cavalry is a threat, since they can climb right over the walls. There are any number of ways to take care of them, pick one. Move earth makes an instant moat if there's a lake near the road. It won't stop the horde, but it'll slow it down considerably. Caltrops. Lots and lots of caltrops. Several hundred thousand square feet of caltrops. Caltrops made with wall of iron and fabricate. Caltrops from bags of endless caltrops. Caltrops made by hand. They won't cause many casualties, but when a quarter of an army is lamed, the army's going to slow down a bit.
Malben 01-11-04, 03:48 AM	Your DM shows all the signs of being about to railroad you. See, you're at level 5. He's asking you to come up with a plan to evacuate a large number of people from a city that's about to be attacked by more goblins than you can possibly defeat. He's got high-level / epic characters standing by, but for some reason they appear not to be doing anything, and are instead going to leave you to deal with this yourself. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the proposition that those high-level and epic NPCs are going to put on a dazzling display of how cool they are while you stand there and get to wring your hands and lament your own ineffectiveness. If you were about level 13, you could MAYBE delay this horde if you had good terrain to work with, since then you'd be able to use earthquake and move earth to block up mountain passes or flood rivers. If you were really lucky and there was a storm coming in the mountain scenario, the delay might even end up starving/freezing the goblins, and get you a high body count. It'd also make sure the few survivors no longer had a food shortage, since I recall that many goblins are cannibals. But you aren't level 13. You're level 5. If you try to fight in the open, it'll go something along the lines of your non-spellcasters using ranged weapons, and your spellcasters using as many area damage spells as they have, until the goblins charge. After that, they'll be subjected to a democratic slaughter -- one goblin, one stab. Your DM has just told you flatly that he's not letting you build defenses, and that you can have some catapults. Whooopeee. So there goes your chance to at least hide behind defensive emplacements and take a few goblins with you before they can swarm you under. If there are 150,000 of them, after all, they can almost literally afford to fill in your earthworks with their own dead. If you're going to go along with what I have already identified as an upcoming trip on the DM Central Line, I'd advise you to burn all the crops and farm buildings in the direction from which the goblins will be coming. Then slaughter animals and throw them in the wells, ponds, and streams. If there are any rivers or lakes, this last bit won't work so well unless you're prepared to use entire herds. Once you've deprived the goblins of food, shelter, and water, you could possibly head towards the main body of the troops, find a place to hole up, and let them pass. At that point, you could start disrupting their supply lines from behind. If they're denied the means to forage and are deprived of regular supplies, you might be able to make them slow down enough to let the noncombatants get away and/or the DM to use his pet NPCs to enact a stunning example of deus ex machina storytelling with you as his captive audience.
celloshane 01-11-04, 05:32 AM	Okay, I'm going to try to help here. I'm drawing on all the war-seige literature I've read so hopefully the guys like Fiest, Eddings, Jordan, Cook & Co. will pull through on this. I know you mentioned arcane assistance, I hope you have divine magic at your disposal as well. First priority will likely be the evac. To accomplish moving that much pop in time, you surely want to slow the goblins down. If you only have three days to accomplish this I will assume the goblins are already on the march, and well within 50 miles of the city. I would immediately eliminate the roads. Roads are the lifeblood of any empire, and will surely increase the speed of the goblin hordes. Bridges, crossroads, and any roads that lead directly into the city will be the most important. Soften Earth and Stone and Transmute Rock to Mud would be useful spells in this regard. Total burning of the entire area is probably infeasable at this point, and tactically unsound without taking time to make sure there would not be adverse effects. Keep the evac moving steadily, your DM may force you to roleplay your efforts to make people leave. There are usually people who think they can hide, hold out in their own house, or just plain don't care. If the DM is especially cruel, you will hate your character for some of the things that are neccessary to make the general populace leave. Discourage looting as much as possible. Assign a special police force for that duty, and assume they will be corrupt as well. Assuming you get the populace out in time, most of your work is still ahead of you. You will have to split your efforts between harrassing the goblin forces, preparing the city for a siege, and making sure none of the enemy leaders pull any nasty tricks on you. Harrassing the enemy troops: As was stated before, disrupt supply lines as much as possible. Go out of your way to make sure the goblins have nothing to eat, drink, or sleep under. If the goblins are moving during the day, launch nighttime hit and run attacks. The goblins will have an advantage there, darkvision eliminates much of your suprise. If the goblins are moving at night like I would expect them to, daytime attacks should provide the confusion and disorientation you want. Attack anyone obviously in charge, ignore common soldiers as much as possible. Do what you can to take out opposing cavalry but do not remain in melee during hit and run attacks! An entire attack should take less than 3 minutes. Preferably you would be in and out in 1 and a half. Robert Jordan came up with an especially evil trick that should also help slow the enemy down. Get your hands on as much glass as possible. Arrange for it to be ground into a fine powder; there should be refugees and the like to help with this. With spellcasters, arrange it so that the ground glass is blown right into the faces of the approaching army. You may have to explain to the DM that ground glass has jagged edges on every side, this is one of the qualities of the molecular structure. The glass powder would then irritate the eyes, ears, noses, mouths, and lungs of the goblins. Something like this would easily kill many of them; When this happened to the Old World army in Jordan's book, about 2/3 of the advancing forces were lost. You may not be able to hope for that much, but even 1/3 would be a definate possiblity. (Incidently, glass collection may be a useful way to keep looting under control. Pay potential looters to collect glass for you and they might be too busy to loot the rest of the property. Or they might run rampant; use your judgement.) Preparing the city for siege: I have Edding's siege of the Basilica to thank for many of the ideas here. Caltrops have already been mentioned, but I will reinforce this idea. At the very worst, the goblins will fanatically shove their own onto the points so as to keep advancing. Apply poison as much as possible. Create a firebreak, approximately one mile from the city walls. It should be wide enough to prevent a forest fire from crossing it. Diminish Plants or Blight may be useful for this purpose. Inside the firebreak, you want to lay down as much flammable liquid as possible. Lamp oil, grease, pitch, naptha, anything that will burn and can be spread easily. Substitute charcoal if neccessary, but it may not have the desired effect. The idea here is to create a trap that will burn the little suckers as soon as they arrange themselves on the slicked up field. Allow as many goblins to cross the firebreak as you can before lighting it up. Hopefully you will be able to somewhat tailor the town's fortifications. Stone Wall and Iron Wall would doubtlessly be useful as would a myriad of others. Try to create a bailey. That's an open space between two walls that creates a kind of killing field. Multiple baileys would be better, this way you have room to fall back if neccessary. A moat would also be helpful. Use any means neccessary to make taking a wall as deadly as can be. Mount logs and scythe-like metal beams to the walls that will swing the length and clear wall climbing goblins. Leave rubble in place to impede the usage of siege towers. Collapse building behind the gates and questionable sections of the wall. If time permits, I would have arcane users place their most potent Symbols on the wall and make those permanent. Granted they take time to recharge, but could potentially kill thousands before they get to attempt to climb the wall. Walls of Ice may prove useful if the goblins try to bring fire or siege engines to bear. Do not allow the goblins to assemble trebuchets. These are oversized catapults that can take a wall down rather quickly. Try and arrange the city so that if the goblins gain the outer wall, you will have an inner city to retreat to. I have not seen your town obviously, so it is difficult to imagine whether this advice is feasible. If it is, arrange planks and ladders that create a rooftop highway from the outer wall to the inner. When the goblins take the outer, fall back along the rooftops. Attack with ranged weapons from this position and pull your highway back with you so that the goblins will not have that advantage. Making sure they don't turn the tables on you: This is much harder than the other two to advise you on. You claimed that the goblins would be led by well organized forces, and I can't begin to second guess someone I've never met. My best advice is to keep someone watching their leaders, magically if possible. If you can gain an idea of their plans you might be able to use it against them. Another idea is to use hats of disguise and other such magic to infiltrate the goblin forces. With luck, you might even be able to impersonate someone in charge and have various legions marching off in the wrong direction to "maneuver the best position for a suprise sneak attack". Fog banks like the ones created from Obscuring Mist and the like might also let you goad troops into unfortunate movement. Various illusion spells may allow other mind games, but that is so situationally applicable I won't get into it. You have arrange your own stategies for this part, based on your needs and your enemies strengths and weaknesses. Personally my choices for the most lethal spells in this situation would include Cloudkill, Wall of Fire, Order's Wrath, Blade Barrier, Acid Fog, Prismatic Wall, Incendiary Cloud, and Storm of Vengeance. This is all I have for now, considering I should get some sleep. Hope it helps, celloshane
Xavim 01-11-04, 07:09 AM	With the amount of priests you have kicking around, I recommend insanely large amounts of animate objects being created. make every chair, table, armour of invincibility (er...) fight for you. Hell, animate their seige towers and have them run rampant on the army. I also recommend liberal use of CONTROL Weather. Make it COLD. Damned cold. Snow and ice and other craziness. I'd recommend having it be VERY windy towards the goblins, or if you REALLY want to make some noise, conjure a tornado or three. That'll tear them apart quite nicely. Use the Guards and Wards spell right outside the city, numerous glyphs of warding, and major creation to make gallons of readily flamable oil. And then burn away. But what will REALLY turn the battle is Elementals and Demons/Celestials. Have Epic boy Gate in a Solar or five. The strongest priests should be bargining with elementals until they have a freaking unit of them. Several dozen at least. They will trounce the goblins. Fire elementals are a great idea since many have sujested various burnings. With a FE you won't have to worry about risking a life to set your fires. Have people working around the clock making chains. TONNES of chains. Attack these firmly to the outer wall and dangle them over the side. I recommend 20' long chains but I doubt you have the time for that. Any length will do. Now Summon Kytons, bind Kytons, ask 'em for favours. Remember each Kyton can control all chains within a cirtain radius of themselves to attack as effectively as the Kyton itself. Not to mention growing the chains by 10-15' and sprouting razor barbs. Place these bad boys around your wall and NOTHING is getting by. They regenerate, freak the hell out of anything that tries to attack them, and can be taking out several dozen opponents EVERY round. Support them with some nice spellcasters to keep them around and you're set.
BenjCano 01-11-04, 07:18 AM	Originally posted by heysoos That might be more risky than you can imagine. If you keep the conflict to man against goblin, the goblins might get dismayed and moved on. But if their scrying (which a high level monstrous army assuredly has) shows bronze dragons bolstering the defenses, sane goblins should send for some blacks, whites, and any color in the rainbow. You just might find your town being turned in the first battlefield of Armageddon. Posh. If I was the general of this goblin army, I would have already made it part of my battle plan to bribe a mercenary blue or something to aid in the siege, no matter if I expect it to be a shut-in. Besides, the bronzes could just hang out in alternate form until the moment they're ready to deploy.
FreeTheSlaves 01-11-04, 11:03 AM	The numbers are too great. All you can do is evacuate and harass the advance scouts. Perhaps by reconoitering their army you may get an opportunity. You need to get an army, at least 50 000 strong or fall back behind a natural barrier such as a great river. The adventure now become the great migration and to find a safe homeland.
PhaedrusXY 01-11-04, 12:38 PM	Have you ever read or heard about how the Spartans held off the Persians at the battle of Thermopylae? A well trained, disciplined force of 6,000 Spartans successfully held off a Persian army of about 150,000 for 3 days. It is one of the most famous battles in all of history. The Spartans eventually lost, but mainly because they were betrayed. The Spartans were able to do so well because they had superior equipment, superior training, and they fought the Persians at a natural bottleneck. The bottleneck was a narrow coastline, with the sea on one side and rough mountains on the other. The Persians could only advance a few at a time, and the better equipped Greeks slaughtered them as they came. Alot of the advice so far has been good. Do a search and read up on that battle for inspiration from a historical source. A combination of some of the suggested strategies might be best. For example, try destroying the armies supplies, infecting them with diseases, and putting up a defense at the city walls. Then fall back into the sewers and set fire to the city as you retreat. You could hide the town's civilian population in the sewers ahead of time also, if they are as big as you say.
Darkhunter 01-11-04, 01:00 PM	Desfense in depth: (It seems you are not allowed to do it effectively by starting as far out as you can, so you are forced to concentrate on the city.) Channel the goblins into having only on route through the city by whatever means are nessesary/available. Raze weaker buildings to get the raw materials for fortification--block off steets with spikes walls and fill in doors and windows on the lower floors. Clear the razed areas completely to give you a killing ground. The goal is to have every time the goblins take a wall, they face an open area followed by another wall. Make some buildings facades--the goblins thing they just reached. Rige the buildings to collapse after you withdraw (preferably with goblins in them). Skatter caltrops in the streets as you withdraw. Fall back in an orderly manner at the last possible minute. Repeat with each layer of defense. I f you can make the enemy assult a narrower area, you need less defenders tied down. Use defenders not needed at the wall to act as a mobile force to throw wherever the wall is breached or weak. If you have enough troops, send strong troops out to harrass the goblins flanks. Never leave dead and wounded freindlies unless it is immossible to get them--you don't want the goblins to know how much they are hurting you. If possible, retrieve the dead enemies. If the spells are available, cast illusions on as many freindlies as possbile to make it look like undead goblins are on your side, using likenesses of retrieved enemy dead. Ranged attacks: Engage the enemy af the maximum range--with as many as you are getting, you should be hitting something even without aiming. Use ranged spells at the maximum range placed to do the most damage. Load the catapults not with a single boulder each, but several smaller rocks so as to spreadout the damage. Use flaming oil bottles/jars/pitch and greek fire if available. (I'll stay away from the rest of the magic--the rules seem to have changed on a lot of spells I know from second edition....) Your goal is to make it as expensive for the goblins as possible, and minimize freindly losses...but make sure a freindly bard escapes to sing the tales of you bravery and honor as you went out Heros, fighting for Good...
goro 01-11-04, 02:23 PM	Burn the town!! Deny the invaders the satisfaction. Set explosive traps in the sewers so that the multiple levels will collapse in on themselves and take a few thousand goblins with it. Destroy any nearby brigdesm and/or fords on the river and array the militia, armed with ranged weapons, accross it so they can blast the invaders from the safety of the other side of the river. Concievably, the populace would have several days headstart on the goblin forces. They should be able to make to safety while you stay behind and harass the enemy forces. Do not, I repeat, do not get involved with powerful entities that would draw the attention of other, more evil, powerful entities. You already have enough problems on your hands without compounding them by attracting the notice of a few demons or devils.
Xavim 01-11-04, 07:24 PM	:p Demons are the way to GO! Kytons! Kytons! Kytons!
Taran Alvein 01-12-04, 01:09 AM	SiegeSage, In response to your subject, you don't. Heh, just kidding. It's possible. Just probably not with what you have now. But anyhow, rest assured, you will have my full support and tactical advice in this mission, and I will write up a full mission report by you, for review, by tomorrow afternoon. It's kinda long, though, because I'm going to go into minute detail, to make sure everything is taken care of. However, I will have a strategy ready for you. I just hope you enjoy reading. So anyways... :: Dons a dark-grey General's Uniform:: I guess I'd better get to work!
Jaimas 01-12-04, 02:34 AM	It is time for advice from commander Jaimas. This is tried-and-true combat tactics. If you have time - in days - before their advance, prepare appropriately. Lay caltrops in such a signifigant number that the entire goblin army will be partially immobilized or at least slowed some. Set pit traps across the fields. Do anything possible to whittle down their numbers as they approach. 100000+Troops are formidable, but they have the same weakness 100 Troops have. They're just infantry. Also, being goblins, their HP is low. Quantity beats Quality of spells here. A low damage-multi-target attack beats a high-damage single. a wand of fireball could be useful if you have the money or means to get one. Ready weapons that have splash damage - the more the better. Theoretically, a Catapult launching countless vials of Alchemist's fire could be devastating. A wizard or sorcerer launching enlarged fireballs or ice storms will almost guarantee victory in sheer numbers when it comes to goblins. Dig in. Digging in sets you up for a better advantage. Set up massive emplaced defenses and make it clear that this is the last line - even if there's a bigger line to go behind. You want to smash as many foes as possible. If possible, load the moat with a hazardous substance (Such as oil) or create a massive, concealed pit trap around the town entrance. If you are lucky, they will charge you and lose many to a concealed spike pit trap. Dig it deep - you don't want them coming out. Make sure all walls are reinforced and make sure that everything flammable is incapable of being ignited using copious amounts of water. Use the terrain. If you have natural advantages, use them. A canyon is an excellent example, but so is a mountain. Even a cliff is usable, making an excellent area to dispose of foes. Remember your locale and use it! Use Poison. No mercy, folks. You want what you wound to die. End of debate. If you have Necromancers or Clerics with rebuke, USE THEM. They can fatten up your side, thus decreasing casualties in the long run. Highly useful. If you have Illusionists, use them to conjure the biggest and most frightening things in existence: Dragons, Giants, Beholders, and things that EAT goblins. You may panic them or buy time. More later - I'm pressed for time badly.
Naeron 01-12-04, 07:54 AM	Your main problems are going to come from the "mid-high" level goblins. If your DM is capable and cruel, as all DM's should be, you will probably find out that there will be a significant number of goblins with levels that as least approach the parties. Consider that if, as is the usual case, the mortality rate from violent deaths is very high among goblins (either from external enemies or infighting) then you realise that goblins who survive any significant period of time will tend to have some serious advancement. OK this high mortality rate gets rid of most of these prospective goblin heroes but with this many of them you could easily justify 25,000 2nd level goblins, 6000 3rd, 1500 4th, 400 5th, 100 6th, 25 7th, 6 8th, 2 9th (based on about 75% of them dying at each level). And because PC classes other than grunt fighter usually make life more survivable you can expect a large number of arcane and divine casters. Even a 1% spellcaster figure gives you 1500 casters in that army (remembering that the army consists of larg fraction of the able-bodied population, you are easilyy talking about an "empire" of over a half million goblins to be able to field an army this size). However with what you have in the town you may have a fighting chance. First - try and get one of those spellcasters to establish a teleport circle or two to locations where there are significant mercenary presences and try and hire as many as you can. An emergency tax could raise a big lump of cash and give you a few thousand extra troops, it may not seem a lot but even 700 mercs gives you 10% more defenders. You can also use these to buy as many missile weapons and as much ammo as you can to supplement what you are making. Train your militia and send any regular troops out to bring every item of food available inside the walls, burn what you can't transport. Get the refugees out as soon as you can, however I'd consider not doing this as the goblins seem close and you have no way of defending a refugee column against those sorts of numbers. A column of refugees would be lucky to cover a half dozen leagues a day, so the faster goblin troops would probably overtake them and slaughter them. A refugee column is only feasible if you have enough time before the goblins arrive to get them well out of harms way. Instead put everyone to work, dig ditches up to a thousand feet out from the walls. Fell all the large trees in the locale, sharpen branches and stick them in trench sides and pits to hinder the enemy. Take the trunks to make arrows, javelins, seige engines, overhead shelters from arrow fire, abbatis to block roads inside the walls etc. In addition to strengthening your defences this denies the goblins wood with which to make their own ladders and seige engines. Level the buildings inside the outer wall (and the second wall if you have time) but leave the ground rough and broken. Use any stone to reinforce weak points in the walls and fill in the gateways completely (you won;t be making any sallies and gates are the weak points targetted by attacks so backing that wooden gate with a thousand tons of impromptu wall is a good idea. This will give you a second killing ground once you lose the outer wall (and an organised retreat once things look bad is better than a rout). Lay in as much water and foodstuffs as you can and get it distributed and hidden. Gather as much flammables as you can and get cauldrons onto the walls. Hot sand, molten lead and even boiling animal fat (from all the animals you have brought in and slaughtered) are good ways of discouraging those goblins milling around the base of the walls. Work on making the sewers defensible if needed, they will in any case make a good place for the civilians to weather any seige artillery when they are not fulfilling their duties of carrying ammunition, food, water and messages around the city. Form up teams of fire-fighters and stretcher bearers from the non-combatants as every one of these tasks you can assign freews up a soldier to man the walls. Create strong points in buildings inside the second walls, any building with thick stone walls is a good candidate, try and choose ones with good fields of fire and entrances to the sewers that can, and must, be guarded and ready to be collapsed. Fire will be an obvious threat so tear down enough buildings to make fire-breaks and use the stone for barricades and also ammunition for your seige engines. Your purpose is to keep any thrust past your defences contained so that your defences on the walls are not easily threatened by goblins breaking through, spreading out, and cutting of their retreat. Once the goblins arrive and see the defences they will take the obvious steps of filling in all those ditches, dragging away the obstacles and bring forward their own engines. But while they are slowly labouring to do this your militia should be hammering them with missile weapons. Unless they have planned ahead your cutting of local wood will deny them the materials to built mantlets (basically movable wooden walls) as they would like so you should still be able to fire on them as they clear the field for the attack. When attacks come soften them up with missile fire and drop rocks on them as they try and climb the walls. Also save your spells and expensive items such as alchemists fire for taking out seige engines and the like (using magic to destroy a seige tower makes tactically more sense than hitting some goblin light infantry as your will be destroying a major threat to your defenses and also will kill many of those inside the tower). Without adequate seige engines wave attacks against strong walls are incredibly one sided affairs in favour of the defenders. Hold back the most powerful characters to hit the enemies casters and use the medium level characters on your side to damage the enemy grunts - a few wands of fireballs in low level wizards hands will make a serious dent in enemy numbers. However realise that you need to keep your troops spread out until the last moment to guard against similar spells from the enemy, packing the outer wall with troops before the melees start is inviting a few fireballs from the enemy (thinking about it trying dummies and some sort of deception to draw such attacks might be agood tactice to reveal where the enemy casters are so that you can deal with them). The spider cavalry are a particular threat, boiling animal fat should be especially effective against them as they are wall-climbing and these units should get special attention from your elite units. btw has your DM read Legend by David Gemmel as I can see a few parallels here.
Toptomcat 01-12-04, 11:34 AM	You people are taking the wrong approach. Here's a better one: Take about 5,000 men and all the high-levels OUT of the town, leaving a token defense force of 2,000 men and a few summoned creatures. Dig in DEEP, using Summoned and/or Gated creatures to reinforce the defenders. For patching the walls, Summon something with Wall of Stone at will. Those 5,000 men, plus the high-levels, will wait until the goblins arrive...then flank them and cut off their supply train. An army that size won't last a week without supplies.
Naeron 01-12-04, 12:11 PM	Originally posted by Toptomcat You people are taking the wrong approach. Here's a better one: Take about 5,000 men and all the high-levels OUT of the town, leaving a token defense force of 2,000 men and a few summoned creatures. Dig in DEEP, using Summoned and/or Gated creatures to reinforce the defenders. For patching the walls, Summon something with Wall of Stone at will. Those 5,000 men, plus the high-levels, will wait until the goblins arrive...then flank them and cut off their supply train. An army that size won't last a week without supplies. I'm sorry but that just won't be feasible. An army that size is huge, it won't have a single supply train, excluding water the goblins consume about 17 tons of trail rations (not standard food) a day (9 wagons a day) and that excludes mounts and the supplies will be very well guarded as even a reasonable competent general will realise that this is a critical weakness. Those 5,000 local troops will be encircled and slaughtered in the open field against numbers such as these once they have hit the first few trains. Going up against 30-1 odds in the open is suicidal under D&D combat mechanics. Fielding an army 150,000 strong is a seriously difficult task in a D&D world and most competent leaders (which you would have to be to forge that number of fractious goblins into one army) is going to make sure that each warband has sufficent rations to operate for some time and will disperse the supply trains to make them less vulnerable. Even if you do manage to destroy a fortified supply dump or two the army should still have the resources to feed its troops (especially when they turn the 5,000 humans they just killed into rations) for long enough to overwhelm the paltry force you have left in town. Small groups of mid-high level PC's have a much better chance of sneaking in and committing acts of sabotage, but targetting the high level enemy leaders is a much better use of these characters, only go for the supplies if you can't spot a better target.
SiegeSage 01-12-04, 12:55 PM	First - Thank you all for the suggestions, the help is much appreciated. Naeron - the funny thing is that your estimates of the goblins PC levels are probably low. (boo Hiss!) I know from conversations with our GM that these goblins are from a HUGE nation up north. We actually already saw to the defeat of 125,000 of them 3 months earlier (Game Time). I'll elaborate as this has pertinant information. We were sent to the aid of the Kalari (wild) elves, that were our tenuous allies, as a gesture of goodwill when we heard they were having some trouble with unknown foes. Our party linked up with another adventuring gruop an set out with 25 militiamen to the north. Three weeks later we arrived at the Kalari Capital to discover that they were actually fighting off a horde of 125,000 goblins marching down from the north. /begin fun story part - skip to the end for tactical relavance We are assigned to hold the rightmost Flank of the line, and our 35 strong group (24 commoners, 1 warrior sargeant, 6PC's of 4th level, 4 NPC fighters of 4th level) are joined by 12 skilled Elf Archers (unknown level). We get to the line just in time to be assaulted by a small wave of goblins (perhaps 20) we slaughter them at no loss and things continue this way, each wave mounting in strength and our loss mouting the same way. It was at this point that things intensified - Worg Riders and Spider Cav are appearing in greater numbers and we're just barely holding on. Only a pair of CLW wands are keeping hte militia from being wiped out. Those same wands were rendered useless when our illustrious leader tossed a gem with an unknown enchantment on it (which we recieved from a strange cloaked figure not a half hour earlier [This cloaked figure turns out to be Ashandari - an epic Half Dragon Sorceror of IMMENSE power], after asking us what was going on Ashandari heads to the center of the battle), at a group of goblins. His instructions were to throw it "far away" he apparently interpreted that as 20 feet from our line, and tossed it at the Goblins entangled about 15-20 feet from a combat between 5-6 militia, and two party members with a goblin berserker and a 2 gobbo grunts. That's when the Widened, Heightened, DC 34 "Fireball of Doom" (TM, patent pending) blows us to hell. I survive because of imp evasion with about 3 HP our ranger is at 9hp after taking 48 odd damage. The berserker is still alive too. He can't see that he just killed over half the militia so he's "WHOA! that was cool" we finish the berserker - use up some of the wand and prepare to greet the next wave. It's about now that we hear one hell of a ruckuss from the center of the line - something big is going down - we figure it's Ashandari wiping the floor with the main goblin horde, we wait for the next wave. The Goblins come crashing in, highly organized with Spider riders (Huge sized) leading the wave, ready to climb over our hasty wall and crush the line. The ranks of goblins following after should seal it and things are looking bad, real bad. It's about then that a chill dread washes over the whole battlefield and a shadow falls over the fields. The sun is blotted out for a moment and then a hissing rain Pours from the skies, acrid fumes wash over us and the goblins and spiders disintegrate in a manner most foul. /End fun story part - resume tactical Point of order and insert DM Ex Machina ;) A MASSIVE black dragon lands amid their smoking remains, turns to human form and says - "Why Have you awakened me" We yelp, are about to turn and run when the Epic Half Dragon Sorc pops his head in and talks down the dragon (who is named Exondra and I later find out is The Biggest Baddest Balck Dragon on the planet). We high tail it out. The result of this is that the Elves are all but wiped out (Exondra was indiscriminate in her fury) and we barely survived. This army of 150,000 is the SECOND WAVE of the goblin advance. The grand high Goblin is something like a 42nd level Fighter. (I do hope that he's not with the assault force). And while the cries of DM railroad and Dues Ex are somewhat correct - the thing that many might be missing is that this campaign is Epic in scope. He has set events in motion that we can't directly stop or even steer on the grand level - all we can do is make our choices and live with them. This horde is the end of Chapter One of the Story Arc. Chpter two is where we start to come into our own. I also agree that if we ran this as a wargame and I had control of the entire town we could probably hold Threshold. Unfortunately we don't. Threshold is going to Burn, the plotline requires that - the writing is on the wall. Now I have a new mission. How do I survive, and keep the rest of the party relatively intact, while doing my best to kick some Goblin Ass in the process. I want to know what spells/items/scrolls/potions/wands will give me the greatest chance for surviving the coming ordeal. I can probably requisition scrolls up to 6th level, minor wondrous items of less than 4,000 GP cost and any potion/wand/item that I want as long as I can justfy it (that probably means if there isn't a semi direct application to the siege I won't get it). I can also build one or two siege engines of my choice before the goblins get to us. My Current Items are as follows and I can cast 3rd level wizard spells (21 Int). Cloak of the Traveler (Makes food and water, Endure Elem Cold) Eyes of Understanding (Read Magic at will) Kombustor (Cast finger of Flame at will [It's a lighter] ) Item that summons a Mount at will (as spell) Item that makes unseen servant at will Hat of Disguise Int +2 Handy Haversack Pair of Continual Light Rocks "Crossbow" that fires using Launch bolt with infinite ammo alchemists Lab in the sack Relevant Skills/Feats: Craft wondrous Item Scribe Scroll Spell Mastery (which has yet to have spells assigned to it) Alchemy +12 Know Arc +16 Know Planes +13 Know Arch and Eng +10 Know (almost everything else +5 or +6) Prof. (Siege Eng.) +9
Lord_Apollyon 01-12-04, 01:16 PM	Step 1) Become a lich. Step 2) Max Damage Resistance and magic immunities/resistances. Step 3) Kick ass and chew bubblegum. My DM for fun one day decided to have our party mercilessly slaughter horde of 50k goblins. The event goes like this: Me: Can they deal above 9 damage (Adamantite full plate)? DM: No. Me: Ok. I slaughter them all in *pulls out calculator* around 10 hours of game time. DM: Yeah. (He intended it to be that way. For ALL my effort, I got 250 XP)
ChaoticGod 01-12-04, 02:22 PM	From what I can glean from your update your real goal is simply to survive. You have two major threats to your lives. The goblin horde and your high level 'allies' who don't give a hoot about collateral damage. "Well, the goblins are alllllll dead!" "Yes but so are our elven allies!" "Oops, did I do that?" With all the Acid Breaths and slightly offtarget Hellblasts that are going to be tossed around get several scrolls of Extended Protection from Energy ASAP. There will be goblin archers so Protection from Arrows is looking pretty good as well. Leomund's Secure Shelter would give you a little bunker to cast from. Do not Fly, Glow or otherwise attract the direct attention of any high level NPCs from either side. Are you sure you can get any Wand? Wand of Evard's Black Tentacles or Wall of Fire would build a serious defense. In front of your position have your draftees construct some earthen embankments for use as anchors for Web spells. Get a Wand of Web. At the opportune moment start filling the area with Webs. This will trap alot of goblins and prevent more from advancing without frying their buddies. You in the meantime will use your Wand of Ice Bursts (T&B) to give the trapped goblins freezer burn without destroying the Webs. If you can get a Lesser Rod of Enlarge Spell. In any case have some Scrolls of Summon Swarm. The duration is Concentration +2 rounds and your swarm of flying bats should be able to kill multiple goblins each round for as long as you hold concentration. Yes the range is poor but that is what the Rod is for. If you ever see any goblins retreating use a Ghost Sound to yell "Retreat" in goblinoid. Goblins are cowardly by nature and if they see their buddies running and hear the call to retreat they aren't going to play the hero. Once the worgs and spiders arrive that is when you pull out your Wand of Enlarged Ray of Enfeeblement. At 3rd level 1d6+3 STR penalty may encumber the mounts and hinder their attack ability. When things are really bad use Major Image to have the Black Dragon hover above the goblins. They have undoubtably heard about it and will hopefully route. This breaks the rule of not attracting high NPCs but if ya gotta ya gotta. Siege Engines, hm. Build two ballista. Space them apart the distance of the longest lengths of chain you can get. Rig them to fire simulataneously. Attach the chain ends to the heads of the bolts. Have the ballista down in recesses so the fired bolts will travel along the ground at about goblin height. When both bolts are fired they will take the chain with them mowing down whatever is in its path. Reload another couples bolts with a chain between them. Rinse and repeat. That's just some quick and dirty ideas. Hope you live.
Taran Alvein 01-12-04, 03:48 PM	Okay then. I have finished writing a detailed report on the defense against the Goblin force. See how you like it. :: Dons a dark-grey General's uniform :: Okay then. The strategy is broken up into eight phases. Phase I – Evacuation 1) Assemble the townspeople en masse, and tell them that a massive siege is expected for the near future, and that they should prepare to evacuate immediately. 2) Enlist the assistance of the local trading guilds, as well as anyone in possession of a wagon of some sort. They will provide wagons to carry people out of town. Any draft animals that can be obtained will be used to pull the wagons. 3) Enlist the aid of the local Wizard’s academy to cast Expeditious Retreat on the draft animals. This way, the people can get away even faster. 4) Send out the people who didn’t fit on the wagons in boats. Each boat should have a pilot, as well as a replacement pilot. 5) Have local couriers conduct a search of the buildings in town for stragglers. Any stragglers will be informed of the situation, and asked to leave. Those who leave will have Mass Teleport cast on them. Those who refuse to leave should be drafted into service in some way or other, depending on what skills they have. Phase II – Arming and the Garrison 1) All able combatants should be armed. With your newly raised army of 7000 soldiers, you will create the following: Four Battalions of 600 Archers. Armor will be between Studded Leather and Chain Shirt, and all will have a Buckler. These soldiers will man the walls, with half of a battalion spreading out along the wall near each gate, with the last battalion serving as a flexible reinforcement unit. These reinforcements will be used to replace archers who may be killed during the initial engagements. 300 archers from this unit will be stationed behind the outer wall. 200 will be kept behind the inner wall. Five Battalions of 300 Infantrymen. Armor will be Scale Mail and better, and they will have any available shields. These soldiers will be armed with swords, maces, and whatever other melee weapons are available. Two battalions will be stationed behind the outer walls, two battalions will be stationed behind the inner walls, and half of a battalion will be placed on both walls. They will fire bows at the enemy until it is necessary for them to engage in melee, to protect the archers. Ten Battalions of 110 Pikemen. Armor will be Full Plate, if available. Or whatever other polearms are available. Four battalions will be stationed behind the outer walls, four will be stationed within the city streets, and the remaining two battalions will defend the Wizard’s Academy. Four Battalions of 400 Irregulars. Armor will be based on unit type. In each unit will be 160 archers, 105 pikemen, 120 swordsmen, 10 Wizards of varying levels, and 5 clerics of varying levels. One Battalion will be stationed at each bridge. One battalion will be stationed within the halls of the Wizard’s Academy, and the remaining battalion will garrison, the Final Defense Zone, the temple to Thor. One Battalion of 400 Mounted Combat Units. Weapons will be Heavy and Light Lances, as available. Armor will be Full Plate and any Large Shield. This battalion will be divided into two divisions. One division will guard the Wizard’s Academy, while the other defends the Final Defense Zone. These divisions will be used to launch pre-emptive strikes against any enemies who enter their operating areas. 2) In order to maximize combat effectiveness, Clerics and Wizards will be stationed on the walls and among the other combatants to augment their abilities. The Final Defense Zone will be equipped with three Scry-capable Wizards, in order to keep an eye on how the battle is going. In addition, the spellcasters will be able to improve the temple’s defenses. 3) On the day of the assault, about ¼ to 1/3 of the town’s spellcasters should prepare entirely buff spells. They will then cast these spells on the town’s main defensive units. These spells should be mainly AC, CON, and STR increasing spells. Half of the remaining Wizards will focus entirely on direct damage spells, the rest of the wizards will focus on casting Summon Monster spells. Half of the remaining Clerics will focus on spells that restrict enemy movement or damage the enemy, while the rest will prepare Summon Monster spells. All Clerics will use their ability to convert spells to healing spells, should their services be required. In addition, at each of the outermost gates, a Wall of Force spell will be established just before the enemy units arrive at the walls. This way, enemy units will be unable to enter through the gates, our own troops’ tactical withdrawal will not be cut off, should it come down to that. Phase III – Command and Control Obviously, command elements among our own troops will be necessary to maintain order on the battlefield. Therefore, the following rank assignments will be made… 1) General: The head of the Wizard’s academy (CINC Magic (CINCMAG)), will command all of the city’s Wizards. The anti-magic thief (CINC Guerilla (CINCGUER)), will be in charge of leading all covert ops against enemy forces. Of the two strongest melee specialists in town (CINC Conventional (CINCCON)), one will lead all of the standard melee battalions. The other, (CINC Irregular (CINCIRR)), will lead the four battalions of Irregulars.. The most skilled ranged combat specialist in town (CINC Indirect (CINCIND)), will lead all of the town’s archers and crossbowmen. The greatest Cleric in town (CINC Support (CINCSUP)), will be in charge of directing the Clerics. 2) Colonel: CINCMAG will appoint his three strongest Wizards in his service to serve as command elements in the field. One Colonel will command the wizards stationed in the academy, one will command the wizards stationed on the walls, and one will command the wizards integrated into battalions. CINCCON will assign this rank to three powerful melee specialists. One will be from the Infantry battalion, one will be from the Pikeman battalion, and one will be from the Mounted Combat battalion. CINCSUP will assign three of his strongest Clerics this rank. One will be in charge of the Clerics on the walls, one will be in charge of the Clerics in the Final Defense Zone, and one will be in charge of the Clerics integrated as part of units. 3) Captain: The three Wizard Colonels will each assign two captains. Each Captain will control half of the Wizards under the command of the Colonel to whom he reports. The Infantry Colonel will assign three captains. One will command the two battalions on the outer walls, one will command the two battalions on the inner walls, and the third will command the remaining battalion. The Pikeman Colonel will assign five captains. Each captain will command two battalions of Pikemen. CINCIRR will assign one captain, and each will command two battalions of Irregulars. The Goblin Tinkerer will be assigned the rank of Captain, just to make him feel special. 4) Sergeant: The Infantry Captains for the outer and inner walls will each assign two Sergeants, each of whom will command one of the battalions under their command. Each Pikeman Captain will also assign two Sergeants, who will command one of the battalions under their respective Captains. Each Irregular forces Captain will assign two Sergeants. Each Sergeant will command a battalion under the command of their respective Captains. Each Cleric Colonel will assign three Sergeants, who will share command over each of their respective divisions. CINCGUER will be put in charge of any skilled infiltrations specialists that are available. This includes, but is not limited to cat burglars, sneak thieves, any available ninjas, and illusionists. In addition, CINCGUER will be given the command of three Wizards and five Clerics, to do with as he/she deems fit. Phase IV – Securing Reinforcements As early as possible, a fast courier must be given messages requesting reinforcements from the nearest allied power source available. Before leaving with the message, an Expeditious Retreat and Haste spell will be cast upon him, and the courier will be furnished with as many Expeditious Retreat scrolls as possible (thus, requiring the courier to be able to use magic items). The courier will be armed with messages written to all of our allies within 100 miles, so as to allow the courier to quickly move on to the next source with the message, rather than having to return to the city for another message, should our ally be unable to aid us, or aid us swiftly enough. Phase V – Securing the Perimeter Once the courier has left with the messages, send out troops to gather or destroy any ungatherable crops in the fields, which might block the view of the enemy’s advance from our troops, as well as provide them with food. Once the fields are clear, our soldiers will scatter caltrops, to slow the enemy advance. Obviously, they will start at the far end of the field, and work their way inward. If insufficient caltrops are available, substitutes will be used, and new ones will be carved from wood, bone, and anything else suitable for the task. As a side note, out of character, ask your DM if you can have someone make an Alchemy check to make exploding caltrops, using gunpowder (if it exists). Believe it or not, such things existed as early as the 13th Century, in China. To quote an essay on the history of land mines, “Military engineers in China employed the first self-contained explosive AP mines against Kublai Khan's Mongol invaders in 1277. Manufactured in many shapes and sizes, these mines could be command-detonated or activated with either a pressure device (probably based on a match) or a pull-firing device (a forerunner of the flintlock mechanism).” (Engineer Bulletin, Schneck). If your DM wants to see where I got this information, direct him to this site: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/980700-schneck.htm Now then, on to the next phase. Phase VI – Damage and Demoralizing This mission consists of two Sub-Phases. 1) The first Sub-Phase will involve using CINCGUER, as well as the soldiers under his command, to launch guerilla raids against the enemy’s encampment. They will hide, pick off enemy units at a distance with archer fire, then run away and hide. They should strike as often as possible. Every time they attack, it should be at a different part of the camp. They should vary the times that they act from day to day. The strike team should aim specifically for any enemy command units they can see, before going for regular soldiers. In this way, they can sow confusion among the enemy ranks by commanders. If a panic is initiated, some enemy units may desert. 2) This is where your Goblin Tinkerer first begins to come in handy. Your Tinkerer will be assigned the task of launching bombing runs on the enemy army before they begin their assault. Armed with mass amounts of Alchemist’s Fires, he will fly his Gyrocopter over the enemy army, specifically targeting Worgs, Spiders, weapons caches, and any siege units in the enemy’s possession. By eliminating the Worgs, the enemy will have fewer cavalry units to initiate charges against our troops (although, unless there is a breach in the walls, the enemy’s Worg Cavalry divisions will be useless!) By eliminating the enemy’s spiders, the enemy will be unable to circumvent our defensive perimeters by climbing over the walls. By destroying the enemy’s supplies, most importantly, their bows and arrows, we will be able to prevent them from striking at us at all! Though the enemy soldiers will surely be carrying all of their weapons, as well as some arrows, if we can destroy all of their reserve arrows, as well as their food and other supplies, we can not only limit their ability to launch a prolonged siege, we can demoralize their forces, by forcing them to forage or starve. And, because we have destroyed the crops in our fields, we have prevented them from accessing that food source. By eliminating siege weapons, we can reduce the enemy’s capability to infiltrate our walls. Phase VII – Final Preparations Before the attack is to come, but after the troops have been armed, vats of oil should be brought to the walls and placed on mobile carts. Oil will be placed along the walls every 100 – 150 feet or so. If enemy units attempt to climb, or otherwise breach the walls, the oil will be poured on them at that position. However, to temporarily prevent future climbing attempts, the oil will then be lit on fire, either by Flaming Sphere spells from Wizards, or from archers using flaming arrows. As long as these fires are not put out, they should last 6 - 8 hours, slowing the enemy advance at that position for part of a day. The town’s most skilled masons and woodworkers will be kept behind, as well as enough boat pilots to get these people out of town when the attack comes. The masons and woodworkers will create a brace to place underneath the two bridges leading to the Final Defense Zone. The bridge itself will be disconnected from the shores on either side of the river. The brace will be set up to be sturdy, but to collapse when two blocks of stone are removed. This way, the bridge will be available for the mustering of troops, but can be destroyed in an instant to prevent enemy forces from crossing on it. If any time remains, the masons and woodworkers will construct strong, heavy blocks to prevent or slow down access from the sewers. These blocks will be placed atop the holes leading into the sewer, and will be secured with an adhesive, to prevent removal. It is impossible to cover every hole, so instead, they will start work on covering all sewer entrances near the Final Defense Zone, then the Mage’s Academy, and then will fan out to cover as many other entrances as is possible. On the day of the attack, the direct damage Wizards should prepare the following spells, going as high as they are able: 0th LVL –Detect Magic. 1st LVL – One Magic Missile Spell, Grease, and Reduce. 2nd LVL – Web(!), Flaming Sphere, one Spectral Hand (only if they can cast 3rd LVL spells and higher), and Shatter. 3rd LVL – Ice Burst, Fireball, and Shrink Item. 4th LVL – Ice Storm. 5th LVL – Cloudkill and Cone of Cold. 6th LVL – Chain Lightning. 7th LVL – Delayed Blast Fireball, Prismatic Spray, and one Vanish. 8th LVL – Power Word (Blind) and Horrid Wilting. 9th LVL – Meteor Swarm. Now then, I have chosen these spells for the following purpose: -At the beginning of the battle, all of the Wizards will cast Detect Magic, to look for enemy spellcasters, as well as enemies with magic items. -Whenever necessary, to cover parts of the wall that are being climbed when the oil is gone, Grease will be cast. The Grease will then be ignited. Meanwhile, Reduce will be cast on enemy Siege Weapons, should they get within range of the spell. Spectral hand will be used to deliver touch attack spells, but only for Wizards who are at least LVL 7. As the enemy approaches, Web spells will be cast to hamper their movement. It is hoped that by halting the vanguard, the main army will be forced to slow down as well. Magic Missile will be used to target specific units, such as commanders and those who are moving Siege Weapons. -Ice Burst (found in Tome & Blood, deals 1d4 + 1/ LVL, Max. 10d4 + 10, 30 foot radius) will be used to target large sections of enemy troops, to wipe out small platoons of them (37 in one strike, if placed within an area with one goblin in every space). Fireball will be targeted at enemy spellcasters (hits up to 25 troops at once). Shrink Item, a touch attack, will be cast through Spectral Hand, in order to shrink the size of enemy Siege Weapons. Primary targets include Battering Rams, Trebuchets, and Siege Towers. -Ice Storm will be used both to smash enemy Siege Weapons, as well as to target large forces of troops. Destroying Siege Weapons should be the primary objective. -Cloud Kill will be cast when the enemy starts getting near the walls. It will be used as a mass elimination weapon for dispatching of large amounts of enemy troops. Because it rolls away from the caster, it should be able to decimate an entire line of enemies. Cone of Cold will only be used on Spider Cavalry Units as they climb the walls. Aim for the Spiders! -Chain Lightning can strike quite a few targets at once, and should be targeted specifically at enemy Commanders. By destroying the enemy’s command structure, you may cause enemy units to break ranks and flee, or to at least attack in a very unstructured manner (a la throwing themselves at the walls, only to be shot down by our archers). -Delayed Blast Fireball can be used as an excellent weapon for when the enemy’s General can be seen. You can lure him into a trap by casting it on the spot he’s moving towards, then putting it on a 1-turn delay. If you can kill the enemy’s General(s), not only will they be out a powerful warrior, the top of their command structure will be eliminated! Their lower ranked officers, as well as their regular soldiers, may panic and attack in a wild, unstructured manner. Some may desert, eliminating some of the enemy units as threats. As the enemy’s main army rolls in, cast Prismatic Spray, to take quite a number of them out of commission. You should be able to get most of the army with this, so long as at least 3 casters can cast this. Vanish is to be used in combination with Spectral Hand. Siege Weapons that are still a threat will be banished to the Ethereal Plane with this spell. -Power Word (Blind) the enemies when the main army gets to you. This should reduce their effectiveness as a fighting force. Meanwhile, Horrid Wilting should be cast on those who are moving any remaining Siege Weapons. This should kill both them, as well as any enemy troops around them. -Meteor Swarm will be your artillery support. Pound the enemy mercilessly with it, aiming specifically for large groups of soldiers, and setting the spell to it’s Large Sphere Box Pattern. This should be used on the enemy’s main army when they are within the spell’s range. The spell should be targeted to avoid running into a single enemy, dealing all of the damage to just one target. Half of the Wizards who will be casting support spells will memorize the following spells, up to their limit (for ease, all levels are listed, in case sufficient high leveled casters exist): 0th LVL – Disrupt Undead. 1st LVL – Hold Portal, Shield, and one Detect Undead spell. 2nd LVL – Arcane Lock, and Web. 3rd LVL – Dispel Magic, Invisibility Sphere, and Haste. 4th LVL – Evard’s Black Tentacles, and Summon Monster IV. 5th LVL – One Wall of Force spell, or one Wall of Iron spell, and Summon Monster V. 6th LVL – Greater Dispelling and Mass Haste. 7th LVL – Summon Monster VII. 8th LVL – Antipathy and Summon Monster VIII. 9th LVL –Summon Monster IX. These spells will be used as follows: -Disrupt Undead, because quite frankly, I don’t trust the Goblins not to have any undead, especially if they have spellcasters. -Right at the beginning of the battle, these casters will cast Detect Undead, to look for undead soldiers amidst the enemy’s ranks. Hold Portal will be cast on the inner gates once the troops are forced to withdraw through them, as they likely will be. Shield will be cast on as many melee soldiers as possible. -If the casters run out of Hold Portal spell, Arcane Lock will be used instead. In addition, to hamper the enemy’s movement, Web will be cast on them as they approach. -When the enemy can be seen, Invisibility Sphere will be cast, to give our troops the advantage of the surprise attack. Dispel Magic will be kept to negate any enhancement spells the enemy may use. Haste will be cast on offensive spellcasters. -Evard’s Black Tentacles will be cast in the middle of the fields when the enemy begins their advance through the fields. Summon Monster IV will be used to summon Lantern Archons, which will serve as additional fire support. The Archons will use their ray weapons to hit the enemy forces from above. -On the day that the enemy arrives, Wall of Force will be cast on each of the gates along the outer wall. Once our troops are forced to fall back behind the inner wall, Wall of Force will be cast on the gates of the inner wall. In addition, Wall of Force will be used to close up any gaps in the walls that may be created. However, instead of Wall of Force, half of the support casters will have Wall of Iron, which will be used to set up roadblocks. These blocks will be toppled onto enemy forces once they start to take a serious beating. Summon Monster V will be used to summon Celestial Dire Lions. -Mass Haste will be cast on the archers on the walls, and also on some of the melee units. Greater Dispelling will be kept aside to remove particularly tough enemy enchantments. -Summon Monster VII will be used to summon Celestial Elephants. -Antipathy will be cast on the entrances to the Wizard’s Academy and entrances to the Final Defense Zone, set to hedge out Goblins. If any more uses of this spell exist after this, they should be cast at varying points along the walls. Summon Monster VIII will be cast to summon Ice Para-Elementals, with which to attack the Goblin Army. -Summon Monster IX will be used to summon Astral Devas and Ghaele Eladrin to help in the fight. The other half of the support Wizards will reserve all of their spells and hold their actions to cast counter-spells. In addition to all of this, houses should be turned into convenient bunkers. Entry/Exit points should be created in the part of buildings facing away from the nearest wall. In addition, any entrances facing the nearest walls should have a barrier set up there, to prevent entrance through it. The woodworkers should create these barriers, and carpenters should be used to cut entrance holes in the back of buildings that need them. The barriers created in doors and windows should have slits from which arrows can be fired, and small slits should be created in the walls of the house that face the city’s defensive walls. As many house as possible should be fitted in this manner, so as to provide a point for archers to fall back to, once they are forced off of the inner walls. From here, they can strike enemy units without reprisal. Meanwhile, battalions that are stationed in the city can wait here until enemy units storm in. When a bunker is in danger of being overrun, all units inside will fall back, escaping through the rear, and moving on to garrison the next bunker down (which should be 5 buildings away. All weapons, armor, and other items in the shops will be removed and placed in the Final Defense Zone. All of the city’s Wizards will be armed with any rods, wands, and scrolls that can be found, to augment their offensive capabilities. Effective immediately after soldier armament, in the area inside the city’s outer walls, trenches will be dug, and barricades erected by the soldiers. They will use wood from the trees nearby to build these barricades. Within the inner walls, more trenches will be dug, with barricades behind them. The aim is to force the enemy to strike at one point, creating a choke point, slowing the enemy advance down and giving our archers an advantage, when it comes down to fighting within the city’s limits.. Phase VIII – The Attack So now, here is the final phase, all of the preparations are complete, and the enemy is on your doorstep. Now is the time to initiate all of the aforementioned actions; casting of spells, archery assaults from the walls, the dumping and igniting of oil, and the repelling of the enemy siege. However, there are some points that should be mentioned. -Throughout the combat, your Goblin Tinkerer should be flying overhead in his Gyrocopter, bombing the enemy’s positions with Alchemist’s Fire and flasks of Acid. He should bring as much up with him as he can, scatter his bombs over the enemy, then return to base to reload. -When bombs run out, if it is possible, have the Tinkerer bring a couple of archers or Wizards up with him, the rain arrows upon the enemy, or to cast spells at them. -Don’t suicide your forces on the walls. That is to say, don’t keep them in a defensive position until they all die. That’s a good way to kill the troops’ morale, and you really need every soldier you can get. Therefore, if it looks like a position will be overrun, pull your forces back. You don’t actually have to engage them full on to the death until they reach the Final Defense Zone. -You and your fellow party members should join the fight on the outer walls. Like I said before, the more troops out there, the better. -If the enemy army comes into view, and it doesn’t look like enough, chances are it’s a trap. The enemy will probably then strike either from across the river, or from the sewers. Therefore, they should be kept under almost constant scrying, and fill the sewers with a flammable liquid, which can be ignited instantly. -If there are any catapults or trebuchets in town, bring them behind the inner walls, in such a position that they can fire on enemy troops. However, keep some of them back at the Final Defense Zone. -Finally, if you are forced to withdraw from the town, deal the walls as much damage as possible, so that your counter-offensive to reclaim the town will be easier. Passwall is a very good spell for this purpose, as is Disintegrate. And if you choose to retreat, try to kill as many enemies as possible. Desired Objectives The following are the objectives I hope to achieve with this strategy: 1) Protect the lives of the city’s civilian population. 2) Disrupt the enemy’s command structure by eliminating their COs. 3) Reduce the enemy’s siege capabilities by destroying supplies, weapons, and Siege Engines, using bombing runs. 4) Demoralize enemy forces using quick strikes and guerrilla warfare. 5) Prevent the enemy from infiltrating the city walls, either through clandestine operations (sewer infiltration), or by breaking/circumventing the walls. 6a) Prevent the enemy from overrunning the Final Defense Zone long enough for reinforcements to arrive. OR 6b) Inflict at least 66% casualties among the enemy forces before being forced to withdraw from the city. 7) Eliminate all DM Railroading attempts. 8) Prevent TPK.
wolf3794 01-12-04, 04:07 PM	well, not for all 150k of them, but set up the main gate with darkness, prismatic wall, silence. They charge the gate, they die, repeat. Let the epic sorc lob off his fireballs, he'll slaughter them. 5th level cleric...contagion? Raid their rear, destroy their supplies, slow them down, Turn the ground into mud with some rain. Any Decanter's of Endless Water around? Use the catapults to send massive, netted together, bunches of alchemist's fire instead of rocks...more damage. A good ranger can start snipering them at 3-4 range increments...think about it, you're in the front rank, and your buddies are falling to arrows...you can't hit them yet...RUN! It's not impossible, just difficult. Oh, and take the non-combatants out of the city via the river, go across it, and then they can run :) JKust my 2 cents worth.
sturmhauke 01-12-04, 04:07 PM	I think many of the suggestions here are feasible within the parameters given. If your DM won't allow any of them and forces you to retreat no matter what, well he needs to brush up on his skills because that's crappy.
SiegeSage 01-12-04, 05:08 PM	Taran, While your plan is beautifully crafted and an excellent piece of tactics, (as well as damn funny - CINCMAG had me cracking up), There exists within it a central flaw (though again I absolutely LOVE the plan and truly appreciate the effort you put into it). Our resources are FAR less than what your plan assumes. As for the Evacuation we can get about 2,000 people out via boat, the rest go marching on their way. Regarding horses/wagons for them I have no idea, but I think we might have 500 horses in the whole city, maybe less (probably less). Your sugggestion of 2400 archers is a good one, unfortunately we have perhaps 600 bows. I don't have any clue what we have in the way of weapons and armor - but I'm assuming that at least 80% of our draftees will be coming with a spear that they made themselves (I'm praying for swords but expecting clubs) and no armor. We have perhaps 40 mages in the entire town, most of those can't cast 3rd level spells. As I fifth level caster I'm in the top 15 casters we have, and all but the top 5 aren't so far ahead of me to my knowledge. We have between one and three casters capable of 9th level magic. The Epic Sorc that I've mentioned is actually a Sorc wizard Multi - so while Magic missile is his forte - don't expect meteor swarm (not even sre if he can get off Cone of Cold). On a related note your designation of CINCMAG will have to be revised - as the Head of the mages school is in fact the Anti Magic Thief (MWA HA HA!). He is wiz1/Rog14 (or somesuch) and has hidden his unmagic-ness from the world via his spellcasting friends. While we do have whole bunches of clerics (60 or so) - only three of them are 5th level or higher. Contaigion is a great idea - but that pesky [evil] descriptor on it makes it out of my realm and probably out of the Clerics of Thor god of Battle's realm as well. In Phase four you suggest sending a courier for reinforcements, while I whole heartedly agree (As one of our allies is the equivalent of the Roman empire), why not just teleport the courier to where he needs to go? I also agree with your idea for landmines - unfortunately gunpowder "doesn't work" in mystara (which is the campign setting we are using) The actual defense section is well crafted - and aside from a few thoughts on different spell selection I think it is a wonderful idea. Again it falls prey to the low resources section. As it stands I'm going to atempt to get a scrolls of teleport x1, dimension Door x2, Exped retreat x2, Dispell Magic x3, Fly x1, Invisibility x4 and Invisibility sphere x1. Wands of Ice Burst, Fire Wall, Magic Missle, and Summon Swarm, will also be requisitioned. I will bulid a pair of Ballistae rigged to fire grape shot (think blunderbuss) and attempt to get a couple of levitate scrolls so we can retreat them with us. Any thoughts on that selection?
Josh Wilhoyte 01-12-04, 05:27 PM	I like the idea of loading your catapults with flasks of alchemist's fire if you're just wanting to do damage. As for your impending escape, scrolls of teleport. Several of them.
SiegeSage 01-12-04, 08:04 PM	So I think that a ballistae stats should be 3d8dmg 19-20x2 (Huge Heavy Crossbow), with a range increment of 120 feet. Strapping Alchemists fire onto it causes Damage as the Alch's Fire plus the Ballista. Do I fire it as a profession Siege Engineer check or an attack roll? I'm trying to figure out how the two ballista firing together with a chain between them would work mechnically. Attack roll/Check to hit AC 10 at the point of first impact, ewverything for the next 30 feet makes dc15 reflex save to void being mowed down. (like a breath weapon). Another variant - Can or Container filled with rocks/shrapnel is fired from the ballistae to a predetermined distance (distance determined by length of cord tied to ballitae) when the cord reaches the end of it's length it discharges the shrapnel in a 30ft. cone. (I'd use a fuse but theres no gunpowder in my world, perhaps I can figure out an alternative, like Thermite 8] ). Finally straight up grapeshot, 60 foot cone, dc15 reflex to avoid 2d6 damage Comments?
Jaimas 01-12-04, 08:52 PM	Seeing a catapult-like siege weapon designed for antipersonnel purposes. Off-hand, I do not recall the name, but I do recall what it did and how it worked. Using a specially crafted basket for the holder, it was a catapult - however, it bore the dubious distinction of launching not rocks, but a storm of razor-sharp metal projectiles that distantly resembled large caltrops. Each one was built so that no matter how the projectile struck, it caused a nasty laceration. The basket and holding device ensure that the projectiles did not "Bunch up" and assured an even distribution of them. Using such a system, a catapult of this type launched these deadly projectiles in waves of 200+ per launch. Even even a third of those rounds hit, you're talking a large portion of an enemy force suffering glancing injuries - made far worse if the rounds are poisoned. As for your cleric buddies, you need them to Cast Heroes' Feast before the battle. It's cheap, and can affect the bulk of your army need be. Get Mass Heal available, and ensure that every unit you can has a combat-capable cleric assigned to it. This doubles as both a symbol of hope for your units, and provides them in the field with a medic. Don't diss healing circle - in situations like this it can save lives. You need splash damage, and lots of it. Druids would be a handy ally, as Entangle or Briar web could signifigantly slow their advance. Get your epic boys to earn their fuggin' pay. Instruct them to cast Fireball, Ice Burst, and Enlarge them if necessary. Hell, even a few rods of lesser enlarging can make the difference between life and death. If they give you crap, remember the words that ended General Haig's career in the Reagan Years - even if it was true: "I am in charge." Every single unit makes a difference. Tell your troops you expect at least a 4-to-1 kill ratio. By that, I mean, by their 5th Kill, they have successfully completed their mission. It sounds like your DM is being a hard-ass on allowing you to turn the tides. And that sucks. A 5th Level character team amongst 17th-50th level characters? That's like begging: "Please Kill Us." But you can do it. I honestly believe you can turn back the tide. Dice be with you, my friend. If I can survive a CoC Campaign, then you will make it out of this. May Great Cthulu's 4-eyed visage watch over you. :88E:
DarkSoldier 01-12-04, 09:09 PM	Mystaran landmines could be made with alchemist's fire in a compartment under a pressure plate; when somebody steps on it, the palte crushes the vial and it goes boom.
Taran Alvein 01-12-04, 09:30 PM	Originally posted by SiegeSage Taran, While your plan is beautifully crafted and an excellent piece of tactics, (as well as damn funny - CINCMAG had me cracking up), There exists within it a central flaw (though again I absolutely LOVE the plan and truly appreciate the effort you put into it). Our resources are FAR less than what your plan assumes. "NOOOOOO! ALL MY PLANS HAVE FAILD!" -Dr. Wily, Megaman 4. Rats. If I only knew what you had for supplies. Oh well. I say screw the city, then. The heck kind of city on the border of the wildlands is it that doesn't have a standing army of at least 40,000, and has no weapons? *Mumble, mumble...* Still, you'd might as well wipe out their entire army anyhow. Make it look like there are soldiers on the walls by using illusion spells en masse. When the enemy arrives, make it look like you're pulling back, by having the illusions run away. In reality, you're just baiting their army into a massive trap. When the enemy arrives in town, they will find the streets empty (the Wizards you had creating these illusions, the only actual soldiers in town, will have Teleported out by the time they enter). However, just before the Wizards left, one of them will have activated a fuse, which is down in the sewer. This fuse will burn for about an hour, and will lead to a massive stockpile of explosives. Meanwhile, the sewers themselves will have been flooded with flamable and explosive materials. When the bomb goes off, it will destroy the entire sewer complex, caving the entire city in on itself, and killing everything in the city, as well as within 1,000 feet of it, a la Nino Island in Megaman Legends 2 (friggin' cowardly Guildmaster, what the heck is a maniac like him doing with a self-destruct button for an entire city in his room?!).
fractal 01-12-04, 11:36 PM	Originally posted by celloshane Robert Jordan came up with an especially evil trick that should also help slow the enemy down. Get your hands on as much glass as possible. When this happened to the Old World army in Jordan's book, about 2/3 of the advancing forces were lost. You may not be able to hope for that much, but even 1/3 would be a definate possiblity. Although confusion between the two authors is certainly understandable, you're thinking of Terry Goodkind. And, although it decimated the front rank of the army, the majority was unaffected. As to the topic itself, 150,000 is a HUGE number. No technique that isn't self-propagating (disease, undead, etc) can take out a sizable fraction by itself. You'll have to attack, attack, and attack again. Something I haven't seen mentioned (although I haven't carefully read every post), is the use of gaze attacks. Sure, dragonfear is good, but so is something like a medusa. Protect her from arrows, and mow down hapless goblins. 3 or 4 at once, in different places, could be extremely difficult to defend against, even if there are a few casters capable of stopping it. Of course you also want extra, illusory, medusas to add to the confusion. Eventually the goblins (who survive) will learn to close their eyes, but then you'll be able to bluff and demoralize them even more easily.
Vanigo 01-13-04, 03:07 AM	Originally posted by SiegeSage Taran, While your plan is beautifully crafted and an excellent piece of tactics, (as well as damn funny - CINCMAG had me cracking up), There exists within it a central flaw (though again I absolutely LOVE the plan and truly appreciate the effort you put into it). Our resources are FAR less than what your plan assumes. [...] I... see... You know what you should do? Get the evacuation started, then cut bait and run. Seriously. You're doomed. You don't have the resourses to inflict more than 1% casualties on the horde.
celloshane 01-13-04, 04:24 AM	Oh geez, how did I mix up Jordan and Goodkind? Probably has something to do with the fact that both series have the same hero in a different body... But yes, the the glass trick only decimated the front lines, but it decimated the front lines. There's no reason it can't be used more than once, and the wounds and sickness it caused were especially demoralizing on the other troops. After looking over spells; Wall of Fire- can be huge at 20 feet long/level 2d4 fire damage within 10 feet. At 10th level that's 2d4 damage to 2,000 square feet, and 1d4 damage to another 2,000 behind the first. Wall of Ice- 10 feet/level, when breached, deals 1d6+1/level to all who move though the area of frigid air, that is potentially damage to 100 square feet and a strong wall Wall of Iron- Almost impossible to break, at 12th level can be 60X5 feet, and can drop it onto enemies dealing 10d6 damage Whirlwind- can be a damage breaker to such an army. 10' radius at base and moves 60' per round, deals 3d6 damage + 1d8 each round after unless successfull reflex save. Therefore, 1st round can effect 130 square feet and each round after can affect another previously unaffected 120 square feet if it moves in a straight line. 8th level spell so at 15 level you could effect 1,810 square feet. And it moves in whatever direction you choose so it can be directed to hit the spider cavalry and then smash the command area or something of the sort. Plus logically creatures it picks up and then expels should deal damage to any creatures they fall on. And I still like Storm of Vengeance- Affects 360' and deafens, 6d6 area damage without save, 6 lightning bolts, and reduced visibility and speed. Granted, other spells are still good here, but I'm assuming you want to effect the most goblins possible and for comparison Meteor Swarm has a total area of 120'.
CaoSlayer 01-14-04, 06:00 AM	ummm, what about this spell?: Mirage Arcana Illusion (Glamer) Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Area: One 20-ft. cube/level (S) Duration: Concentration +1 hour/ level (D) This spell functions like hallucinatory terrain, except that it enables you to make any area appear to be something other than it is. The illusion includes audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements. Unlike hallucinatory terrain, the spell can alter the appearance of structures (or add them where none are present). Still, it can’t disguise, conceal, or add creatures (though creatures within the area might hide themselves within the illusion just as they can hide themselves within a real location). --- you can place a fake castle some miles in other direction... also with 50,000po you can hire a epic cleric or bard for casting animate object in the castle and making him run or fight the goblins. --- another good couple of spells would be confusion and song of discord (bard only), that casted in the middle of the enemy´s army can cause a real chaos ("our own men are attacking us!!!")
Tevish Szat 01-14-04, 02:46 PM	The objective of this battle will not be victory. Voctory will not be easily possible here. What you need to do is remove the population of the city and then pin the goblins down. Releif will not come in time, that time will be needed for the civilized lands to mount an allied defense so no more cities suffer the same fate. you want to keep the battle going as long as possible and do as much damage as you can. as long as the force is fighting you, they won't be moving on the fight others. You've got casters. You'll want wall move earth to extend the river into a moat completly around the city. make sure it's touching the inner wall. use Wall of stone spells to create an outer wall around the moat, leaving no land room between the two walls. create walls on the natural river side if possible. after you finish evacyation, cover over the river as well. the enemy might swim under such a cover, but the outer wall isn't going to hold forever anyway. In the meantime, evacuate the city via the river. Send the populous in boats, bath tubs, barrels... anything that will float. However, you need to hold this place for as long as possible it seems, so make this an out for the women and children, and the feeble among the elderly. conscript everyone able to weild a sword or a bow and get them armed. Station your best archers along the inner wall. they should have a decent shot above the outer in order to hit the enemy before they start trying to breach it. The outer wall is a delayer. The river is the real defense. caught in it between the two walls, the enemy will be easy picking for archers. Make sure you have every mage you've got out there as well, loaded up with fireball and magic missile. if Your DM alows lightning spells to interact with water, make sure you've got a big supply of lightning bolts. They shouldn't get over until there's a bridge of their bodies. As it is, the river is hopefully swift flowing. this combined with the nessicity ot create a large breach in the outer wall should prevent or at least delay the appearence of Seige machines at the inner wall. You might even be able to take out rams and towers before they get to you. After enough time, however, the inner wall will be breached. at this point you get your meele fighters into the action. you have everyone who couldn't be outfitted with a bow in the streets and everyone who could on the rooftops. if my estimates are correct, your forces will be outnumbered a total of 10 to 1 at the begining. I said in the start that victory is not the ultimate goal, but if you play your cards well with ranged attacks, you might be able to do it at the end... The street fighters will start to take casualities. at this point you fall back to the temple of Thor, where you should have as much in the way of provisions as possible. get across to it with a decent anti-siege force, then blow the bridges. Get your really high level mages in the mage tower at the same time, anyone that can throw out 9th level spells. once as much of the army as possible is in the city, have them on orders to cas earthquakes, hitting the entire city and some of the river, hopefull leaving the tempel out of the spell radii. The uildings will collapse with most of the enemy army inside and the river will drown what's left of the city and you enemies. Seeing as this is a classiv horde, they will inevatibly be some that couldn't fit in the city and thus will keep coming against you. at this point, you give yourself a pat on the back for decimating a humungeous number of enemy troops and then ready yourself for round two, holed up in the tempel with no chance of escape. If you have a strong enough position, the enemy might move on and ignore you. this is not good, as your objective here is to hold them for as long as you possibly can. Provoke them however you can into coming against the tempel, another wonderful place to defend from. they'll be out of siege machines to spend hopefuly so the worst you need to contend with is ladders and a bunch of enemies pounding on the gates. hold them in battle as long as you can. only stop fighting when you're dead, they're dead, or releif comes to take over (fat chance on the last one!)
Rerednaw 01-14-04, 06:34 PM	You are outclassed, outgunned and worst of all, have a DM who appears to be throwing out your best ideas after you propose them. I'd start with (ask the DM): What can't we do. Then try proposing some of the extremely well-written and detailed tactics proposed by others here. CINCMAG - *ROLF!* Works though. I really do wonder about all of this. If you REALLY have epic non-player characters (especially casters) then they should be more than able to take care of this. (A few Rain of Fire spells should virtually annihilate the goblin armies. Block off access (landslides) or wait until they are stuck in narrow approaches (passes, etc.) and then cast this epic spell. Even if the higher levels escape or survive, by and large the bulk of the forces should be utterly destroyed by this spell. BTW, how did it turn out? (I noticed you said the game was in 3 days, and we're past that.) Cheers.
Ograbme 01-14-04, 06:50 PM	I would just drill (as in train, not bore holes into) the crap out of the militia. A well-disciplined force will ALWAYS, ALWAYS kick the crap out of sheer numbers. Go tell the British at Rorke's Drift or the Spainish in Technotahitlan(sp) that 7,000 vs 150,000 is impossible.
Jaimas 01-14-04, 07:15 PM	This is with a 6th Level Rogue, facing goblins. My +1 Leather armor of Invulnerability got a workout here, but after the battle I had lost but 10HP out of 74. Where I go, none shall follow. Let's be fair. The easiest way to kill every last goblin is a Corrupt Spell, from the BoVD - namely, Apocalypse from the Sky. One casting, and everything within 10 miles takes 10d6 of whatever element you choose. No fuss, no problems. Arm caster with Spell, send caster amongst army. Cast. You are now knee-deep in their dead. Sure, it's Evil, but we're talking a situation bigger than morality here, and you're not a Paladin. Creeping Doom would be useful against them, too. A carpet of 1000 Biting, stinging, death things can quickly whittle enemy forces down to nil. My friend Viper recommends his preferred Crowd-Control Method - Summoning a Tendrilicous, and then, from atop it, blasting foes with Flame Strikes and Ice Storms. Being Huge, the Tendrilicous threatens an enormous range, and since it can swallow foes whole, problems get bad quickly for foes. Also, it regenerates and can stay in the fight a very long time - especially with Bryan healing it. Any foe armed with anything but bludgeoning weapons or acid is in for combat with a foe that is virtually invulnerable. Worse, it's a plant. So they can't mind control it, critically hit it, or cause it death through massive damage. Ice Burst deals less damage than Fireball but has a much bigger burst range. Remember that for future reference.
Duke Viper 01-14-04, 07:52 PM	Hi I am Viper the one Jaimas so fondly talks of. I guess im famous now or what? Anyway, you could use a tendticulous which I love so much. But you can also do what I did another time, well actually the same battle, but you dig a very deep pit, and a very long pit. Stone shape works good for that. then at the bottom throw in some wooden beams. Then Woodshape some big ol' ass peircing spike in the wood. Fun. throw a lot of caltops inside to add to the pain and VUALLA!!! pain, and a little bit of death to boot. This works best when you have a pinch point that they all have to go through. *Note* too many victims fills the hole depending on how deep it is* Adding poinson to the pointythings inside is fun too
Bonemage 01-14-04, 10:13 PM	Setting up caltrops throughout the fields could be a great starter (spiky pointed things to take down horses mostly but work for infantry as well). So setup these things and get a small force of your troops to draw them into combat somehow. Certainly going to very risky if not a sacrifice on the part of this force. Could be paired with some sort of a plan to cover this force as they head back to the city for safety. Maybe a few spells, a few big rocks from catapalts, arrows once they get closer to reduce the pursuers. This could be a great way to beat down their calvery enough that an escape or siege breakers would have a better chance of success. Are they likly to have siege machinary? like Balista or catapaults? If so that makes your tast a lot more difficult and you should try to setup something near the city that would make it harder to move such things closer to the city like holes dug in the roads and the like. Note: this also makes it harder to troops in plan A to retreat back to the city. Most importantly make sure you have strong supplies or supply lines because if you are going to outlast the siege you are going to need food, water and etc. without that who cares what the rest of the plan is.
Fanatic-Templar 01-14-04, 10:35 PM	It seems you need me to take advantage of the Goblins' laziness and stupidity. SETUP Make the Goblins believe there is an easy way into the city by having one of the goblin scouts " escape " having overheard of the sewer access. HOWEVER You will have sealed away every other exit of that sewer system. When every Goblin willing to enter has gone far enough, crash the last exit on their heads. CONCLUSION You will now have a very large horde of goblins drinking second-hand water ( urgh ) down under your feet. ( Be sure that if the Goblins DO enter, you make the sewers collapse on their head ) Otherwise, you can try to convince the goblins to fight among themselves. That shouldn't be too hard, seen a goblin's natural behaviour.
Bonemage 01-14-04, 10:55 PM	Originally posted by sturmhauke I think many of the suggestions here are feasible within the parameters given. If your DM won't allow any of them and forces you to retreat no matter what, well he needs to brush up on his skills because that's crappy. Sorry I don't mean to insult you but I hate that line of thinking. Who in real life never has to have to face an "no win" situation. Now I realize that this isn't real life but fighting out of a losing situation of being extremely creative in a tough spot makes for better roleplaying. In any case I decided not to get too much off topic here so I have started a new thread "When a DM kills PC's"
Teamshibi 01-14-04, 11:28 PM	Heres an idea, Build a large number of spiked walls. These walls should be sturdy enough to take heavy pushing. Upon the goblins entry ignite a wall of fire behind them and around them, keeping them surrounded and only able to move forwards into your maze. Thing about the maze is (not even sure if this is legal but i dont see why not) you've cast mass invisibility on it all over the wall. The goblins are bumping into extremely sharp spiked their whole way through. Once your sure they are all in the maze or at the end of it, start pouring melted down steal, oils, and anything extremely hot and devastating into the walled off canals. Boil them alive if you can. All this can be done in the castle walls. The only problem with this routine is that it will render archery useless once they find the cover of the invisible walls. The purpose of the spikes is simple. In the confusion of running from the boiling oils, irons, fires, etc there will be confusion. ENough confusion to impale yourself on an invisible spike maybe? Another option would be a hell of alot of illusions and maybe a dragon to take fire off you. Bribe as old a bronze or copper you can find to fight for you while telling him that his pressence will likely bring enemy help of a chromatic dragon. A metalic dragon will spring at the opportunity to fight a color dragon! And meanwhile have him torch the goblins. If a dragon comes then so be it. If not then you just won, you split the spoils with your new dragon friend, and if he feels he must kill a color dragon then go on a hunting expedition with him at your side and let him claim his prize.
bootor 01-14-04, 11:50 PM	I had a campain against an army of about this size of kobolds. I found that the best thing to do if you have access to epic lvl casters and alot of other casters that can give spell slots is to make a very large version of "rain of fire" from the ELH. Miles of fire for 20 hours duration at a casting. Now that is scorched earth.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-15-04, 12:11 AM	- Get the clerics to animate every last bit of metal in the city and order it to attack. - Mages: raise a wall of fire and then open a free standing gate to the elemental plane of water behind it. Swim or burn, boys. - Greater Planar Ally in a Battle Dragon. Point to the goblins.
SiegeSage 01-15-04, 02:49 PM	So this past tuesday has now happenned. The Siege has not. By that I mean while the session went off as anticipated, and days one and two before the siege have occurred we have not actually gotten to the part where the goblins hit the walls (or even come into sight). Relevant Points to the discussion: The Baron (leader of the town) has announced the goblins are on approach and that preliminary evacuation (old, sick, very young) is to take place. The Baron was summarily eviscerated by a mysterious assailant. The Baron's daughter (who was suppossedly an ally to the party) attacks us after we find the head of the "FBI" side of the town guard dead (as she attacks she says she did it). The Party is almost wiped out (one member charmed, one member dominated, one Hideous Laughter, one Dead [via dominated beatdown], one entangled - then stunned by mind blast from our own Psion ) The Charmed party member breaks free and finishes off the 12th level "Bard of doom" which is assaulting us. The party is put under house arrest for three days while the whole issue is cleared up. Somehow the goblins don't make it to town in the three days we're under house arrest. (not sure if that will change as it was late and he made the three days statement in haste). New information reveals that: The blacksmiths are making arrowheads like mad, a corridor of death is being set up to channel the goblins, the fields are being made extremely muddy to prevent siege weapons moving forward, The Carpenters have made briding material to evacuate people over the river via a floating bridge and are beginning work on siege engines. A wizards brigade of the aprentices has been formed - after realizing it is a deathtrap/horrible use of his abilities/(it's really boring to roll dice for four days to resolve an hour of game time battle) my character has pursued point defense status on the walls and assited in building the Siege weaponry. It sounds like the overall defense is fairly well in hand, so here's [B]the new Query: I have the spells of an INT 21 wizard (19 natural +2 item), and a wand of magic missle (unsure of the Caster level) with 20 charges, I can get just about any spell in existance to memorize and I have three days of Scribe Time. What Should I memorize for the day's battles (what spells have a duration of concentration, or will turn the tide in battle - given that I only have about 10 spells - two with decent power)? Given that it will be a long day of combat standard defenses like Mage armor and Shield are fairly useless: How should I protect myself? Expected Enemies are Siege Engines, Ogres Magi, Ogres, Goblinoids, Orcs.
sturmhauke 01-15-04, 03:05 PM	Originally posted by Bonemage Sorry I don't mean to insult you but I hate that line of thinking. Who in real life never has to have to face an "no win" situation. Now I realize that this isn't real life but fighting out of a losing situation of being extremely creative in a tough spot makes for better roleplaying. In any case I decided not to get too much off topic here so I have started a new thread "When a DM kills PC's" Somehow I got it into my head that the DM was going to disallow basic things that were suggested here, like digging moats and making barricades and such. I blame lack of caffeine and sugar.
Rerednaw 01-15-04, 03:28 PM	Originally posted by SiegeSage So this past tuesday has now happenned. The Siege has not...What Should I memorize for the day's battles (what spells have a duration of concentration, or will turn the tide in battle - given that I only have about 10 spells - two with decent power)? Given that it will be a long day of combat standard defenses like Mage armor and Shield are fairly useless: How should I protect myself? Expected Enemies are Siege Engines, Ogres Magi, Ogres, Goblinoids, Orcs. Given you are very likely to be overrun, I'd strongly recommended a few escape spells. Rope Trick (level 2, or extended as a level 3 spell if you have the feat). It lasts 1 hour per level or extended 10 hours in your case. Do you have any caster-level boosting items? (orange ioun stones). Invisibility (level 2) and Fly (level 3) would also be considerations. Granted they don't last very long, but they may buy you the few minutes of unnoticed escape time you need. Protection from Arrows level 2, lasts one hour per level (or until discharged at 10 hit points per caster level, or 50 points of damage for you) is a pretty good choice if you expect to be fired upon. If you are dead set on getting into the fight: Web (level 2) because it has a decent duration (10 minutes per level). You can use it to slow down enemy troops/ladder teams or (debatable) teams of troops with seige towers. Granted the whole web goes poof if it is set on fire, but then everyone in the web takes some minor fire damage, which is better than nothing. Spectral Hand (level 3)and Touch of Idiocy (level 2). Drain the stats of one enemy caster with a ranged touch. Ray of enfeeblement (level 1). Only lasts 1 minute per level, but no saving throw and you can target a key high-strength foe when it will hurt him the most. (say when he is trying climb or batter down a door, or heck even fighting becase his full plate will be more than he can carry). Feather Fall (level 1) if you have to jump from the wall. Unseen servant (level 1) one hour/level. "Go fill that bucket with hot oil, caltrops, etc. and toss it over the side of the wall, repeat. Or go pull that lever that springs the catapult..." and it will do that action over and over, if you like, as long as you stay in range (50 feet for you). And you can have more than one at a time. If you want to be fire support, Scorching Ray is a decent level 2 choice. Even Flaming Sphere (level 2, 2d6 damage, 1 round per level duration) in the right places can help. (Say along the top of the wall that has been overrun, onto the ramp into the seige tower) - don't forget that (if your DM allows it) you can peek out every round and redirect your flaming sphere from the safety of the rope trick's dimensional pocket. Just a few suggestions. Please keep us updated (thanks for this week's update)...I am really curious how things turn out. Cheers. [edit for spelling]
Fanatic-Templar 01-15-04, 07:27 PM	I like Terry Brooks' defense of the Valley of Rhenn in First King of Shannara, but I guess you have neither the time or experienced army for that. Here's a wild thought : Could you use an illusion to move the whole town over the sea/lake/ocean/whatever ? Something like a GIGANTIC, OVERPOWERED displacement spell ? I'd just laugh to see all the goblins charging into the water and drowning from the weight of their armour ( face it - goblins aren't that strong ) Otherwise, seen as how the town is doomed, why are there forces staying behind anyway ? They should be escorting the non-fighters while the Horde ransacks the town.
Fanatic-Templar 01-15-04, 07:29 PM	Damn, I forgot ! You claimed in your introduction that the town had a goblin tinkerer or something. Are you certain he's not a traitor ?
Tevish Szat 01-15-04, 08:19 PM	Originally posted by Fanatic-Templar I like Terry Brooks' defense of the Valley of Rhenn in First King of Shannara, but I guess you have neither the time or experienced army for that. If your going to look at Terry Brooks, i think the most similar scenario is the evacuation of Kern in Sword of Shannara. City on an island in the middle of a river, surrounded by hordes, need to get population away.
Duke Viper 01-15-04, 08:27 PM	Well in the case that your in, I dont think you are supposed to win, I think you are supposed to run, or get captured... either way, take as many enemies or people you dont like down, before fleeing like a little girl....
ChaoticGod 01-15-04, 11:38 PM	Originally posted by SiegeSage So this past tuesday has now happenned. The Siege has not. By that I mean while the session went off as anticipated, and days one and two before the siege have occurred we have not actually gotten to the part where the goblins hit the walls (or even come into sight). Relevant Points to the discussion: The Baron (leader of the town) has announced the goblins are on approach and that preliminary evacuation (old, sick, very young) is to take place. The Baron was summarily eviscerated by a mysterious assailant. The Baron's daughter (who was suppossedly an ally to the party) attacks us after we find the head of the "FBI" side of the town guard dead (as she attacks she says she did it). The Party is almost wiped out (one member charmed, one member dominated, one Hideous Laughter, one Dead [via dominated beatdown], one entangled - then stunned by mind blast from our own Psion ) The Charmed party member breaks free and finishes off the 12th level "Bard of doom" which is assaulting us. The party is put under house arrest for three days while the whole issue is cleared up. Somehow the goblins don't make it to town in the three days we're under house arrest. (not sure if that will change as it was late and he made the three days statement in haste). New information reveals that: The blacksmiths are making arrowheads like mad, a corridor of death is being set up to channel the goblins, the fields are being made extremely muddy to prevent siege weapons moving forward, The Carpenters have made briding material to evacuate people over the river via a floating bridge and are beginning work on siege engines. A wizards brigade of the aprentices has been formed - after realizing it is a deathtrap/horrible use of his abilities/(it's really boring to roll dice for four days to resolve an hour of game time battle) my character has pursued point defense status on the walls and assited in building the Siege weaponry. It sounds like the overall defense is fairly well in hand, so here's [B]the new Query: I have the spells of an INT 21 wizard (19 natural +2 item), and a wand of magic missle (unsure of the Caster level) with 20 charges, I can get just about any spell in existance to memorize and I have three days of Scribe Time. What Should I memorize for the day's battles (what spells have a duration of concentration, or will turn the tide in battle - given that I only have about 10 spells - two with decent power)? Given that it will be a long day of combat standard defenses like Mage armor and Shield are fairly useless: How should I protect myself? Expected Enemies are Siege Engines, Ogres Magi, Ogres, Goblinoids, Orcs. Okay, this is starting to make a strange kind of sense now. Forget about the siege, it will be handled by the DM. It is merely a backdrop for your DM's attempt at an intrigue. The Baron is dead. Murdered. His daughter attacks you while confessing she killed the Security Chief just before the city is going to be attacked. Was the baron's daughter the 'Bard of Doom'? Is she dead? If so, who is now in charge? What motivation did she have for killing the Security Chief? Did she kill her father and if so why? What motivation did she have for attacking some low level adventurers when a goblin horde will soon be on her doorstep? Again forget the siege and FIND OUT what is going on. Once the goblins hit town everything will go to the Abyss and you will never find out what is going on and that means that whatever scheme your DM is trying to pull will succeed. That probably is not something that the PCs and their allies will like.
theCurt 01-16-04, 12:02 AM	I bet one epic character could kill them all....I'm serious every goblin...if its a wizard I know they can
BW0222 01-16-04, 02:17 AM	Run into the woods for 3 days. Then ask your DM where the goblins found 1/2 million days food supply. Even modern armies (with trucks, planes, transport ships, etc.) require insane amounts of food and supplies. Ancient armies might be able to forage over a small area, but rarely fielded more than a few thousand. Those able to mount large armies (even Rome rarely got more than a few legions into a battle at once, say 20-30,000), required massive roads, carts, wagons, etc.
Tevish Szat 01-16-04, 03:36 AM	Originally posted by BW0222 Run into the woods for 3 days. Then ask your DM where the goblins found 1/2 million days food supply. Even modern armies (with trucks, planes, transport ships, etc.) require insane amounts of food and supplies. Ancient armies might be able to forage over a small area, but rarely fielded more than a few thousand. Those able to mount large armies (even Rome rarely got more than a few legions into a battle at once, say 20-30,000), required massive roads, carts, wagons, etc. An army marches on it's stomach they say. However, a decent number of goblin clerics could create food and water enough to seriously cut the need for supplies, so that might not be a weak point.
CaoSlayer 01-16-04, 06:15 AM	also they are goblins... They will eat anything at sight including fallen friends... Ever in the worst case they will be about 120,000
baud2death 01-16-04, 10:18 AM	[metagaming answer] a DM, unless mad will not want the battle to go ahead. And if it does then one side will almost automaticalty win with the DM deciding who that is based on the power each side has. He will be wanting you to find the source of the army and quell that [/metagaming answer]
Ertai Planeswalker 01-16-04, 11:04 AM	Ok. i'm not going to read through al that so itrm ight have been answered before. 1st: Do not evacuate. 2nd:Have all those people dig very small trenches, about 20Cm deep, 10 Cm wide, dividing the surrounding fields in squares. 3rd: Fill trenches with flaming chemicals. 4th: When goblins are halfway on a square of field, torch a trench. The goblins will be surrounded by flames in no time, and cannot escape. Once the grass catches fire, it'll be a matter of time before you have a huge stack of fried goblin. Was rinse repeat. 5th: Import some food, as the foodstocks have now been depleted. The ground is extra fertile though, some druidic magic might help.
Votan 01-16-04, 11:28 AM	Originally posted by SiegeSage So this past tuesday has now happenned. The Siege has not. By that I mean while the session went off as anticipated, and days one and two before the siege have occurred we have not actually gotten to the part where the goblins hit the walls (or even come into sight). Relevant Points to the discussion: The Baron (leader of the town) has announced the goblins are on approach and that preliminary evacuation (old, sick, very young) is to take place. The Baron was summarily eviscerated by a mysterious assailant. The Baron's daughter (who was suppossedly an ally to the party) attacks us after we find the head of the "FBI" side of the town guard dead (as she attacks she says she did it). The Party is almost wiped out (one member charmed, one member dominated, one Hideous Laughter, one Dead [via dominated beatdown], one entangled - then stunned by mind blast from our own Psion ) The Charmed party member breaks free and finishes off the 12th level "Bard of doom" which is assaulting us. The party is put under house arrest for three days while the whole issue is cleared up. Somehow the goblins don't make it to town in the three days we're under house arrest. (not sure if that will change as it was late and he made the three days statement in haste). New information reveals that: The blacksmiths are making arrowheads like mad, a corridor of death is being set up to channel the goblins, the fields are being made extremely muddy to prevent siege weapons moving forward, The Carpenters have made briding material to evacuate people over the river via a floating bridge and are beginning work on siege engines. A wizards brigade of the aprentices has been formed - after realizing it is a deathtrap/horrible use of his abilities/(it's really boring to roll dice for four days to resolve an hour of game time battle) my character has pursued point defense status on the walls and assited in building the Siege weaponry. It sounds like the overall defense is fairly well in hand, so here's [B]the new Query: I have the spells of an INT 21 wizard (19 natural +2 item), and a wand of magic missle (unsure of the Caster level) with 20 charges, I can get just about any spell in existance to memorize and I have three days of Scribe Time. What Should I memorize for the day's battles (what spells have a duration of concentration, or will turn the tide in battle - given that I only have about 10 spells - two with decent power)? Given that it will be a long day of combat standard defenses like Mage armor and Shield are fairly useless: How should I protect myself? Expected Enemies are Siege Engines, Ogres Magi, Ogres, Goblinoids, Orcs. Okay. Let me be clear. The leader of the Golbins is a level 42 fighter. Most of your casters can't cast 3rd level spells. You have treachery on the inside and the head of your intelligence service is dead (possibly with important information). This means that there could be more traitors. The goblins have the number to attack in waves. If they have high level spellcasters (with a 42 level fighter a 20th level sorcerer is not impossible) then you might easily be inferior in magic firepower. Sixty low level clerics will be blasted to pieces by a high level arcane casters. Or an epic level fighter could attack the walls -- he will difficult to stop with 5th level characters. The epic sorcerer could probably kill him if he had 9th level spells but a Sorcerer Wizard multiclass without 5th level spells is going to find an epic fighter a really big problem. So you are outnumbered roughly 20 to 1. You can't count on your allies. The enemy has powerful high level characters (think of what that 12th level bard could have done leading troops). The party already has one dead just from an infiltration attack. Best spell to memorize: invisibility. Treachery is more dangerous to you than the enemy as it can destroy the best laid plans (and, once again, the head of the intelligence service being targeted by the Baron's daughter means that it was worth revealing her as an asset to protect others). Your troops will be demoralized by the loss of their leader. So the other reason for invisibility is that it aids escape after your side is slaughtered. Because, barring a nice tactic like encouraging a Brass dragon to intervene, you are outclassed in EVERY dimension. If you want to do somethign helpful, travel with the refugees and protect them from the random losses they will otherwise take from goblin outriders (it will be hard to prevetn raiding parties of goblins from bypassing the city or travelling faster than the refugees). A couple of dozen goblins can kill many helpless refugees but will find a 5th level party a stiff fight.
Brainstrain 01-16-04, 06:53 PM	Originally posted by wdarkk If you've got a high-level caster, use Horrid Wilting. At 16th level, a Horrid Wilting _will_ kill every MM goblin it targets even if the caster rolls all 1s and the goblins all roll 20s. Also, it would have a range of 1040 ft, and can target any goblin within 60 ft of another goblin. You could easily take the entire army out in one casting. Please join my campaign. Or let me join yours... You're so brilliantly EFFECTIVE!
Alderic 01-17-04, 11:26 AM	I guess the only spell you really need is mount, make a nice loyal horse for you and RUN, we loved to haste our horses to back in 2nd ed, even if the aged a year with each casting. Face the army ? Forget it. Stay for the Siege ? No way. An army of 150k will surround the city, and have men (or goblins) to spare to cross the river and block your retreat. If you're still inside the city when the goblins get there you're as good as dead. yes, you might want to figure out what exactly happened there, but not if it takes so much time that the army arrives. I read somewhere that there is an epic fighter leading the enemy army. Even if you somehow stop/kill every goblin, eventually he'll get to the walls, and let's face it, he doesen't need ANY goblins to conquer that city. So, forget about the city, foget about the 13k commoners and get out of there FAST ! On the other hand of course I know of a 2nd level dwarven fighter, and a kobold rogue/paladin (don't ask) that would just stand in front of the main door of the city and greet the entire army with their weapons drawn...
Dell Kallyan 01-17-04, 04:28 PM	Very simple, get as many power kegs as you can, get two high enough level wizards with fly and teleport, teleport about 200 feet above the goblins, drop as many powder kegs as they could carry with the teleport (the kegs wil just fall when you appear above the goblins, try to scry them and appear above the leaders), and fireball. Now thats when they're still days away from you.
Fanatic-Templar 01-17-04, 06:38 PM	The level 42ish goblin shouldn't be a problem. Sticking with regular goblin mindsets, the more important you are, the farther back from the fighting you will be. Denethor son of Ecthelion sais something about the wisdom of commanders in the LotR, but I don't have the book near at hand.
Votan 01-17-04, 11:09 PM	Originally posted by Fanatic-Templar The level 42ish goblin shouldn't be a problem. Sticking with regular goblin mindsets, the more important you are, the farther back from the fighting you will be. Denethor son of Ecthelion sais something about the wisdom of commanders in the LotR, but I don't have the book near at hand. True, the epic fighter will not be an immediate concern. But notice that he listed Orge Magi on the list of monsters in the horder (Orcs and Ogres as well but they are nowhere near the trouble that the Ogre Magi are gonna cause. Lets say that these 150 K goblins have only 100 Ogre Magi with them (to be listed as a type of unite they would need this many in a horde this side. This is a town where a 5th level mage is in the top 15 casters. The 60 clerics are mostly under level 5 as well. Each Ogre mage can cast cone of cold. That's 100 cvones of cold tearing into 7000 milta, 20 odd wiards and 60 low level clerics. They can also cast sleep. There isn't going to be much spell casters can do vs spell resistance 19. These critters regenerate. They do decent damage. They can also fly and turn invisible at will so ground based traps can't stop them. Plus they can go gaesous once a day and enter the sewers despite precautions. These critters have Int 14/Wis 14 -- so they aren't going to be stupid. They will attack and harrass. With regenration they will hard to kill. Static defences won't work. Surprise won't work as invisible flying spies can be anywhere. At CR 8, one is a match for the entire party. Any successful defence that does not involve outside help is going to involve eliminating these guys. Once the battle is over, they can fly after the retreating forces and cone of cold them from the air -- over and over again. They can engage in archery duels at long range and just go invisble when they need to heal. Their opponents will not be so lucky. A 5th level mage has to roll a 14 or higher to pierce the SR. The epic sorcerer/wizard can fight these creatures but the mages will be hard pressed to defeat them. Once the characters are surrounded they will be destroyed in detail. They can't run faster than the Ogre Magi can chase them. Invisible Ogre Magi can pounce on any caster letting out a decent spell. A human recruit is a decent match for a goblin (although the goblin may have slighter better physical stats). But an Orc has 17 strength -- they will cream equal level human recruits. Ogres can assault key positions. The defenders are outnumbered (by 20 to 1), have massive disadvantages in firepower and air power (remember, the defenders might not even have anybody who can cast cone of cold), have lost their leader and head of intelligence to treachery and therefore will likely have significant morale issues. Holding the people together will be nearly impossible. Ogre Magi will make seige engines irrelevant. If you run fast then perhaps you can escape. Otherwise only the intervention of an outside power will give you a chance.
sparkster4242 01-18-04, 06:55 AM	*cough* Blazing Saddles *cough* The town should have enough manpower and raw materials, bolstered by the mage school, to build a decent fake town between the army and the real town. Make the fake one look like it has been abandoned and torched, burn the surrounding fields, and have the mage school set up a big TV screen in the real town square, so everyone can see the approaching army's collective disappointment. 8O
Ertai Planeswalker 01-18-04, 12:52 PM	Originally posted by Brainstrain Please join my campaign. Or let me join yours... You're so brilliantly EFFECTIVE! Yeah really effective... might he explain how a bunch of 5th level characters get their jands on Horrid Wilting?
Kaboth 01-18-04, 08:36 PM	Using Mundane tactics... place various diseased carcasas out in the surrounding lands about 2 days away from town. Beleive it or not diseased troops can cause havac and moral problems. If there is forrest terrain near by in their path, set pits and bungy sticks. You could also set some log traps. Make sure they are camouflaged though. Greek Fire (aka Napatha Oil) - Set up several trenches around the town in a circular patter filled with the stuff. Also if you have any Trebuchets, use them to send greek fire into the mass off troops, its kind of like ancient Napalm. Siege Weapons are yu ally as well, you have 3 days to build, stock them and place them. Test the ranges and set up subtle markers for the ranges and have the settings known so you can fire them where you want with accuracy. There are tons of different types of siege weapons to utilize here. The towns walls and defense will be critical as well. Have several troops of archers to use volley for arrows and have them fire over the wall into the mass. Not knowing your GM - Not Battles are to be won. "Sometimes, Discression is the better part of valor" So Evacuation might be the right direction Especially if there is level 42 coming your way and the best you have is MAYBE an Epic level NPC. Magically Speaking - Cloudkill, Death Spell (forgot what its called in 3.5), Symbols (all sorts can help on this), Fireball's, Lightening Bolts, Meteor Swarms... Magially think AOE... Call Lightening and Firestorm works well here. This dependent on how much spellcasting firepower you have. Having said what I have... depends on your resources mainly. If you near limitless supplies of resources and supplies then you can hold them off for quite sometime.
Duke Viper 01-18-04, 08:50 PM	Heres an Idea!!! Build a giant wooden horse, load it with a lot of troops and give it to them as a present and hope for the best. or as they are attacking the town, sneak around to their base camp and kill the enemy Comanding officers, cut off the ehad, the body dies right?
Jaimas 01-18-04, 10:24 PM	I've done army-strategic scenarios in D&D before. Big ones. Gigantic ones, raging across planar boundaries. One of my proudest characters was a Planar Champion/Cleric (Deity was Cthulu!)/Fighter, (level 10/20/15 who was more than just a commanding officer for an army, but was in charge for an entire division in the endless, cross-planar conflict that is known to most as the Blood War. Specifically, my character had thrown his lot in with his heritage (being a Tiefing and all), and was working with the Demons. Before I even continue one step further, I will use this as the ultimate example of overwhelming force not guaranteeing victory - my army and several others hammered at a location within Avernus for over 20 days, and even with nearly 20-to-1 numerical odds, and the best Demonic engines of war we could muster, with countless mortals on our side as well, we still were getting our asses handed to us, figuratively AND literally. Regardless, Keeping some semblance of order amongst my troops so that they don't just blindly rush into the path of the better-trained, stronger, better organized, better-equipped, and often regenerating Devils - or worse, them wandering off or considering backstabbing you - takes more than a little work when you're dealing with CE Alignments - and especially Demons. Even having Mariliths and Balors as enforcers doesn't completely ease the problem; Keeping an army - especially one in which your troops are completely psychotic - focused and obedient requires strict discipline and a level of control that is rarely seen amongst chaotic alignments. Being ruthlessly efficient helps, but what it all boils down to is how strong you are and your command units are. Trust between the command units is paramount - you either work together and get things done as a unit, or not at all. I ran a unit of just under 24000. Logistics for this unit was a nightmare. Outsiders don't need to eat, so food isn't a huge issue, but we had humans and such too - who needed food, weapons, equipment, ammunition, and other items needed to come to and from the battlefields, and that was an increasingly irksome problem. Logistics support became infrequent following our strikes into the 9 Hells, and we nearly lost several of our best command units, including my second-in-command, a Marilith named, Karelastis, to a series of high-level diabolic biological agents, not the least of which was Devil Chills. Even with the best saves around, there are a lot of people rolling natural 1s, folks. Remove Disease was extremely useful, but even loaded up, I myself could treat a mere 40 or so diseases a day. Getting supplies in and out of territory we took took increasingly large units to protect, until it became apparent we would need to carry a massive logistics force roughly 4 times the size of our army to move efficiently. That being said, we set up and held ground. We were effectively pinned down where we were, immobilized by a complete lack of supplies. I don't care how powerful their epic casters are, or how "evil" they are. Leaving men behind is suicide in the long run, as is going without logistics. And that army has a ton of problems we did not: 1.) They have 150000 Goblins, not to mention monstrous spiders, orcs, Ogres, and variants thereof. That, minimum, means that whoever is moving this army has to provide ammunition, weaponry, gear, medical supplies, and food for over 180000 People (Assuming 30000 Non-Goblins.) 2.) They have ranged units, which require ammo, Spellcasters which require components, everyone, which requires food, and healers that need healing supplies of all sorts. 3.) If they are advancing this far unopposed, with little need for resupply, you have to look for why. Now, assuming that each unit in that army produces a single pound of poop per day (which assumes Goblins produce less and Ogres/Orcs more), that is roughly 90 tons of crap a day! They must have the most efficient latrines around, man. That's one of the nice things about outsiders not needing to eat. That much crap couldn't possibly hide. I normally wouldn't bring up this issue at all - except that there is no way to conceal a latrine that big. Jesus. 4.) Likewise, assume that every unit consumes 1 pound of food a day (Which is impossible, given ogres and orcs), and 1 pint of water or wine (see above.) That, as with the earlier latrine example numbers to ridiculous proportions - you would need 90 tons of food and 22500 gallons of water. Per day. You could fill the Brooklyn Sequarium roughly 7 times over with that much water. 5.) They are advancing at full speed. HOW?! They're laden down with 90 tons of food and 22500+ Gallons of water - per day. That equates to needing an ENORMOUS support force, so either: A: This force is loaded for bear with the support forces already in the unit (Which is exceptionally inefficient), thus meaning that the numbers of 150000 were a gross reduction and your intelligence man should be shot and left for dead. B: a majority of this 150000 IS the logistics force, meaning that the actual numeration of their army numbers a very small number. The US does this - actual divisions deployed are rather small, with the rest being devoted to logistics. Supplies are needed and must flow. C: This is a half-assed attempt of the DM to rail you guys, without giving thought to as where all that poop goes or how the enemy gets their supplies. D: The enemy are somehow getting supplies gated to them. This does not explain the latrine issue. 6.) This army contains creatures of both CE and LE alignments. Can we say "Powder Keg Situation?" As a Blood War veteran, let me say this: Lawful and Chaotic do not mix. The only way they do is that if the majority of your core force is NE. I would really like to know how their CO got that to work, considering goblins and ogres and orcs and such. And if he actually did, I want him to tell me, so I can integrate some LE humans into my forces as cannon fodder ASAP. 7.) No one has answered my question of what a Level 5 character is doing running around a realm full of Epics. Sheesh. Regardless, keep me posted. By Great Cthulu, there is no retreat! :88E:
lotterybucks 01-18-04, 11:06 PM	Originally posted by Jaimas I've done army-strategic scenarios in D&D before. Big ones. Gigantic ones, raging across planar boundaries. One of my proudest characters was a Planar Champion/Cleric (Deity was Cthulu!)/Fighter, (level 10/20/15 who was more than just a commanding officer for an army, but was in charge for an entire division in the endless, cross-planar conflict that is known to most as the Blood War. Specifically, my character had thrown his lot in with his heritage (being a Tiefing and all), and was working with the Demons. Before I even continue one step further, I will use this as the ultimate example of overwhelming force not guaranteeing victory - my army and several others hammered at a location within Avernus for over 20 days, and even with nearly 20-to-1 numerical odds, and the best Demonic engines of war we could muster, with countless mortals on our side as well, we still were getting our asses handed to us, figuratively AND literally. *drool* Jaimas, I bow down to your evilnesss, you've reached evil that I've dreamed of... but anyway, I'd send a small strike force (4 to 5) of highly trained operatives to assassinate some goblin officers. Just find an officer's tent and kill them all. Without people to carry out and relay orders, the most powerful leaders are worthless. Also, torturing and mutilating some poor goblins isn't going to help the morale too much. Pull out their intestines and wrap them around their necks. Then string them onto poles. Or gouge their eyes out with spoons! or break their elbows! split their kneecaps! unplug their bowels! or, you could stand at the gates and charge madly into the masses.
Jaimas 01-18-04, 11:27 PM	My Marilith Second-in-Command was particularly fond of ripping out a foe's innards and either strangling them with them, or fashioning a necklace or the like out of them, which she then wore for the bulk of the battle. She also was fond of making enemy forces to flee, and crushing foes with her tail whilst hammering them with melee and magic alike. Haste in her hands was incredible. And with me nearby, we were unstoppable. Oh, for the good old days....
Duke Viper 01-18-04, 11:30 PM	Well when I kill my foes, I make a necklace of them. I take their canine teeth(sharp tooth for cutting meat) and I put it on my necklace. That should be a little demoralizeing, if not just plain old cool.
CaoSlayer 01-19-04, 07:35 AM	Originally posted by Ertai Planeswalker Yeah really effective... might he explain how a bunch of 5th level characters get their jands on Horrid Wilting? with the share of 50,000gp available, they are able to buy any kind of scroll. And for finding the scroll, the sorcerer surely will be able to cast teleport.
AberrationDeluxe 01-19-04, 02:28 PM	I think Jaimas has the right idea. Logistics for an army of 150,000 is a great ordeal, requiring an obscene amount of resources. Your best bet to delay or destroy the force is to simply burn their supply depots. There are several reasons for such an attack: First, it can be done with relative ease by your party of 5th level characters. Simple infiltration mission. Secondly, the goblins will be forced to fight immediately. With their foodstuffs gone, they cannot support any beasts of burden and they cannot feed their own men. One quick engagement is the only choice left of them. This ensures that they will begin a forced march to the city, thus exhausting and demoralizing the soldiers. Third, the damage to morale is considerable. The troops will be nervous and hungry. Not a good combination. Finally, the attack will cause a significant amount of disorder in their ranks. This allows for a follow-up attack: ambush. My advice for an ambush is to use the terrain to your advantage. Utilize dry areas that the enemy army passes through to burn them out. Ditto with heavily wooded areas. Fire is your best friend in war. It does damage and creates a terror effect. Follow the fire attack with a volley of arrows or crossbow bolts. Your men won't even need to kill very many of the enemy, the terror effect should deal the casualties you need. Add to the fact that goblins are inherently cowardly, the enemy will have no heart to fight you and will trample each other in an effort to escape. Now, after the first ambush, allow the enemy a path of escape. Place more ambushes along this route. Make it a point not to create a prolonged battle, just give them a quick volley of arrows, a cavalry charge, and flee. With any luck, you should deplete the enemy force and capture the enemy leader. Remember, though: NEVER, EVER completely surround them. That makes them desperate, and desperate men gain enough resolve to fight to the death. If an ambush is not an option due to flat terrain, I suggest utilizing any of the methods mentioned above to prolong the conflict. The enemy army will literally devour itself from the inside out. However, I cannot recommend the torture of captured goblins as mentioned above. That is a foolish, silly maneuver which will only strengthen in the goblins' minds the resolve to fight to the death. Instead, treat any captured goblins like you would treat a visiting diplomat. Show them your military might. Feed them well. Give them well-endowed goblin women. Then release them. They will spread the word of your magnimity and strength to the other goblins. The enemy army will thus be more inclined to drop arms and surrender. As a nice touch, raise many banners within the city to create the illusion that there are many more soldiers in your army than there actually are. The goblins will hesitate and it will be their undoing.
lotterybucks 01-19-04, 09:22 PM	Originally posted by AberrationDeluxe However, I cannot recommend the torture of captured goblins as mentioned above. That is a foolish, silly maneuver which will only strengthen in the goblins' minds the resolve to fight to the death. Instead, treat any captured goblins like you would treat a visiting diplomat. Show them your military might. Feed them well. Give them well-endowed goblin women. Then release them. They will spread the word of your magnimity and strength to the other goblins. The enemy army will thus be more inclined to drop arms and surrender. I just don't think the forces available(around 10k?) are enough to frighten the goblin captives. If anything, it might encourage them to launch an all-out attack when they finally realize your numbers. You might not even have to ambush them, a band of your best archers can unleash arrows at a forward camp. Reduce the isolated group's numbers, and charge in on cavalry to finish them off. Then mutilate the bodies, and leave a message warning any others not to approach the city. Escape as fast as you can, and repeat. The average conscript will be disheartened when they realize their officers can't stop the attacks. If these raids continue while their foodlines are being cut, the goblins will desert. It'll also make scouting a very unpopular job.
AberrationDeluxe 01-20-04, 12:12 AM	Hrm, maybe I gave the wrong impression. The idea behind showing the goblins your military might is to create a false show. A facade, really. Similar to when the Soviets visited us way back when for disarmament talks. If I remember correctly, we made it a point to bring the biggest, baddest arms and armor we had. The epic NPCs could be used much in the same fashion. Mutilation and torture will just discourage surrender. Remember the old maxim, "It is far better to take the enemy state intact than to utterly destroy it." I also cannot approve of a straight-on fight against superior numbers. It will result in unneeded casualties. That is exactly the kind of fight a desperate enemy will be looking for. Even the use of cavalry on an open plain will be doomed to fail. An ambush using fire and hit-and-run tactics will cause more enemy dead and at less cost in manpower.
Oakspar77777 01-20-04, 02:06 AM	Your PCs need to stock up on stealth magic like Invisability and Expedious Retreat. They then need to leave the town to the leaders it has. They need to go out and attack scout groups over and over, returning only to get healed up by the clerics and buy more magic o' blasting and sneaking. Strike and run tactics, over and over, even against basic CR1/3 Goblins will result in power growth. Depending on how skilled your PCs are, you can probably gain a level or so a day. Take out those 20 or so Goblin scouting parties (perferably without the fashy and attention drawing spells like Fireball). Remember, every war comes down to two things Morale and Troop Numbers. Killing the scouts one day will bring about stronger scouting parties the next day. They scale as your level grows. Seriously, unless your entire party is epic, and decently epic, an army this size will win the war of attrition (5% will roll natural 20's every turn against you). So, Kill Scouts, Gain Levels, Kill tougher scouts, Gain Levels, Take out groups of rank and file troops, Gain Levels Once you get up to LV 12+ you can start looking to take out some of those Ogre Magi. Sneak in, take out a few in their sleep, flee. The OMs are a primary target, as has been mentioned, since they are just nasty. Once they are taken care of, spellcasters and officers (higher level goblins) are your targets. STAY AWAY FROM THE 42 LV GOBLIN (even though many of his surrounding officers would be good targets, it is not worth the risk to get near him). Try to find out how they are getting food and water. If mundane, attack it once or twice just so they waste troops defending it from then on (or better just use it as an endless drain on their troops by defeating them over and over again). If magical, assissinate the spellcasters involved. If you have time, set up some forest fires, as they can greatly slow an army which has to maneuver between flair ups. Anything that can slow them increases the number of days you have to level up off them. Of course, if the enemy is already at the walls, you have lost your chance to go guerella on them, so, you choices are flee or die. Send your highest defence defenders out to be a human shield and bring the intial battle to them. Leave your highest DX defenders on the wall for ranged attacks to make the siege last as long as possible. Have EVERYONE else flee out the back with any Fast defenders (like mounted troops) as a rear guard. Once you are three miles from the city, break off from the retreat and go another dirrection. The battle and siege should give you a few hours each to run away. Most of the chasing force of harriers will follow the main group. By the time (and if) anyone notices a few human tracts breaking off from the exodus, you will be several days journey away. You can always come back for vengency at level 45.
howlingwolf 01-20-04, 05:53 AM	Few random points. May have been said, but I'm too idle to read. -Go Guerilla. Go into the sewers, and pick off stragglers. Or, well. There's always the other one. Fireballs from underground! Make the well shafts like firing bays. Just make the fireball go off in mid air above the shaft. -Get all the oil you can find, and liberally douse select fields with it. Let the goblins trample and gather, then launch fireballs/flaming/arrows whatever. The ashes will help fertilise the crops next year. :D -Get the epics to go walking into the planes for a few days. Take some bribes and find real help. Maybe some gem dragons from the inner planes who need lunch, or more for their hoarde. :smirk: Or just guarantee looting rights. If they kill the goblins, they can have whatever they find. -Turn diabloic. Offer some prayers to evil forces. :devil: Hey, if you're that desperate, or you want the party to turn along to a evil bent.. :) -Write dozens of scrolls, and launch them into the groups via bows. All with the names of demons, princes, and as many evil deities as you can find. One of those goblins may attract hastur's attention. :D
Bael Que'Van 01-20-04, 04:00 PM	Hello, I don't post very often so please take that into consideration. This is a dead ringer for a book writen by Raymond Feist. It's in "Rage of a Demon King" AFAIK. The heh, "solution" was to make a figthing retreat across the land to the east and blow up the city by pumping the sewers with this highly explosive gas/liquid "naphia" and self sacrificing one of the coolest rogues I've seen written. All in all a very enjoyable series of books. If you've the time, I highly recommend reading them. Good Luck --Charlie Mike
SiegeSage 01-20-04, 05:06 PM	From all to posts I have deduced that there seems to be a couple of offensive and a couple of defensive options. FYI The intel we recieved was from a (now) party member, who hapens to be the Goblin tinkerer. We're fairly sure that he's not a traitor, as we found him running for his life from 20 or so goblins separated from the main horde. They were trying to get him back into their cookpots. The clincher though is that he had a mechanical flying machine, was raised in a goblin/gnome city, and is more civilized than the ranger. He got his number from flying over them in a bi-plane, and relayed it to us as 100-150K goblins. We found out about the Orcs, Ogres, Bugbear, Ogre Magi etc. . . later on from the town leaders. Good News though! This goblin horde is not led by the 42nd level king of the goblins! [I] It's led by a 20(ish) level magician (with necromantic tendencies) who fooled an entire kingdom of wood elves (remember the ones who got toasted by the Ancient Ancient Black Dragon?) into thinking he's an ancient corrupted nature spirit. /sarcasm Also in good news I have achieved 6th level - putting me 1 away from a glorious wall of fire. Also - ChaoticGod had it right when he mentioned the siege as backdrop, that's really what it is. As for his questions: Okay, this is starting to make a strange kind of sense now. Forget about the siege, it will be handled by the DM. It is merely a backdrop for your DM's attempt at an intrigue. The Baron is dead. Murdered. His daughter attacks you while confessing she killed the Security Chief just before the city is going to be attacked. Was the baron's daughter the 'Bard of Doom'? Is she dead? If so, who is now in charge? What motivation did she have for killing the Security Chief? Did she kill her father and if so why? What motivation did she have for attacking some low level adventurers when a goblin horde will soon be on her doorstep? Again forget the siege and FIND OUT what is going on. Once the goblins hit town everything will go to the Abyss and you will never find out what is going on and that means that whatever scheme your DM is trying to pull will succeed. That probably is not something that the PCs and their allies will like. The "Bard of DOOM" was indeed Celestia - the baron's daughter. She was finished by Syngin** (definately read the footnote for a good laugh) after she fell to -3 HP. Speak with dead proved to be fruitless in determining why she had done what she did, but did determine she had killed her father, and she chose not to be ressurected. OOC I know it is becase she was twisted to evil by the BBEG leading the horde arrayed against the town (originaly she was fighting for the rights of the Traladaran people, BBEG pushed her to fight with a bit more visciousness). IC I have no idea (My character has also never met the princess in person, being introduced only two sessions before that [previous character pushed a really nasty psionic demon back into the abyss, sacrificing his exalted soul to save the town when the portal closed behind him.) The power vacum created by the recent deaths resulted in a brief struggle between the town's mayor and the head of the town guard, Willem. The mayor assertted that he was the elected head of civil affairs and he should take over. Willem stated that the town was under siege, and by the way he controlled the soldiers. The mayor's cry that "the violence inherent in the system" was oppressing him went unheard. ;) 1. Destroy the supplies for the goblins, causing them to starve -- Towns leaders seem to be ignoring the supply issue and sitting pretty, don't really know though as I haven't asked them what they're doing. Seems like the way to go to actually win the fight. 2. Get a brass dragon to help us. (This one failed, I have Know Arc +16, Know Geog +7, Know Hist +6, Know Dragons +10, Know Planes +13, and still don't know where I can find a Brass dragon - other than "in this place where the desert, coast and mountains meet that is surrounded by blue dragons" Not such a good place to try teleporting about looking for one.) 3. Summon extra-planar help (HIGHLY unlikely - as Mystara [our campaign world - and an awesome one, from 1st/2nd edition] has a ban on immortals directly interfering on the plane. 4. Use traps and stuff - yeah . . . that it. . . traps . . . and stuff. . . 5. Trust that the NPC's will stop the siege and we will have fun playing a nifty role in it :) Tonight's session will be the investigation/interrogation of the characters by the head of the town's internal affairs department of the guard. I'll update everyone with what happens. After the investigation concludes I'm thinking of having our adventuring group approach the other two that are at our level in the town to go and wipe out the goblin supply lines. 12 5th/6th level characters cant be too puny can it? **Big Laugh/ OMG What the hell was he smoking. . . Syngin is a party member who's first level is in the FR PRC Bladesinger [as are his other 4], took improved crit at 2nd level, and has a Shocking, Keen, +1 "Short sword that does d8 damage because it's an elven shortsword" of speed. He asked the DM to give him a prestige class with qualifying, and the DM said ok. The best part was when he took Improved critical as a bonus feat at 2nd level "because the prereqs dont apply 'cause it's a bonus feat". rofl when I heard that one. Nothing like a 15-20 threat range at 2nd level eh? Contrary to the above information our DM really is a good one (If not entirely aware of the ruleset governing 3rd/3.5th edition - took me a bit to explain the idea that charging doesn't provoke an AOO). Great storyteller, he really is using the siege as a backdrop not as an adventure (though there will be plenty of that).
Cyricist 01-20-04, 06:09 PM	Originally posted by BW0222 Run into the woods for 3 days. Then ask your DM where the goblins found 1/2 million days food supply. Even modern armies (with trucks, planes, transport ships, etc.) require insane amounts of food and supplies. Ancient armies might be able to forage over a small area, but rarely fielded more than a few thousand. Those able to mount large armies (even Rome rarely got more than a few legions into a battle at once, say 20-30,000), required massive roads, carts, wagons, etc. Since goblinoids tend to be canibalistic, they will probably eat eachother. Just have a wizard fly over them improved invisible whilst dropping spices and sauces over them, yelling 'dinnertime' in goblin at them... :D
Flu]{e B0y 01-21-04, 05:04 PM	well since this thread is at the bottom where i dont want it to b i guess i will :bump: it o and i love all ur guys replies here but i say juss let the war go its course and survive like u said be4 its not an adventure so jus stay alive!
SiegeSage 01-22-04, 05:01 PM	So the game went off and went quite well. The investigation found us innocent and we were joined by another character (who is one of the people who maintains the city sewers). The goblins have begun to test the defences by sending small parties at the city. A troll was also sent against the walls, later that night a series of strange lumps were catapulted into the city. Said lumps then proceded to get up and become super trolls that are only killed by acid, and can meld into stone to hide. That was a good time - let me tell you. After the trolls were dealt with, a large flaming sphere fell into the town and exploded on impact. I think it was an enlarged boulder with D.Blast F.Ball on it hurled into the town using telekenisis (because the fields around the town were muddied to prevent catapults from moving into range). We then went ad checked the sewers. They seemed to be incursion free (all stationed guards reported all clear). Most useful spells/items so far: Expeditious retreat + mount at will item (my horse goes 54.5 MPH with those spells on it) Finger of flame at will item looked REAL good till the trolls were fire proof Items I intend to make: Acid splash at will - 250 GP to create Aything else you can think of that would be cheap/quick to make? I am now 6th level. Thoughts on spells to take at 7th? Countermeasures against the trolls? perhaps cheap acids that we could sprinkle about to make them mad/wake them up?
da chicken 01-23-04, 11:28 AM	A bucket of water. Trolls still drown, technically, since regeneration and fast healing don't affect suffocation damage. So you beat them unconcious, dunk their heads in a bucket, and wait.
SiegeSage 01-23-04, 12:00 PM	I know about the suffocation trick - I was looking for a way to find the trolls after they use their meld into stone ability. Killing them hasn't been too big an issue - it's the finding them before the rise up and start thwacking peasants thing that's giving us trouble. :)
SiegeSage 01-23-04, 01:04 PM	What 6th level feat should I take? I have Spell Mastery (5th level Bonus feat), Craft wondrous, Skill focus (Know Arc), Scribe Scroll (bonus), and Eschew Materials. I plan to take loremaster at 8th level (I meet all prereqs at this time). I was thinking of leadership - but my Charisma is only 10. Any other thoughts?
adamwat 01-23-04, 01:52 PM	I'd Be saying Spell focus in something. Whatever you feel is most needed. Spell focus Evocation is always great.
Psifon 01-24-04, 02:40 AM	Horrid wilting will not take out all the goblins. the spell states "no two of which are more than 60' apart" This means that there can be no two anywere who are more than 60' apart. So the front goblin is more than 60' from the back goblin. In short it does'nt make a "chain." What could work, and would be relatively low magic, would be to find or create a narrow pass that the goblins must march through. Dig a large 15' deep trench across the pass, put a wall of fire on the army-side of the trench, but face the hot side of the wall INTO the trench (away from the army). Now you have a 5' high wall of fire with a 15' deep trench on the other side. Place silence spells on the hot side of the wall. Now cast a mirage arcanna over the whole thing, putting a sharp hill that starts right in front of the wall, and rises steeply. finally, have an invisible wizard concentrate on an illusion of any goblin who steps through the wall continuing up the illusion of the hill. The net effect of all of this is that as the army marches through the pass, each rank steps on the "hill" and falls through the wall of fire (dying unless they have character levels) and into the pit. The silence spells stop the screams of the wounded as they hit the wall of fire. The invisible wizard has the job of maintaining the illusion of hundreds of goblins marching over the (illusionary) hill that covers up the wall of fire. This will keep the whole thing going. You will probably want a second wizard to cast the major illusion of the goblins going up the hill, just because they will need to spell eachother, and use overlapping durations to prevent the illusion from ending. You should be able to kill several hundred of them before the pit fills up. Have workers (with a mass resist fire pre-cast) shoveling the remains out of the pit as quickly as possible to prevent it from overflowing. Of course a 3rd wizard will be needed to maintain concentration on the wall of fire. The highest level spell in this sequence is a mirage arcana, which is 5th level. This should be well within the capablilites of any reasonably sized town. Did all that make sense? Of course if the 42nd level fighter is in the front of the army (which he shouldn't be, he is too important), then all bets are off.
OmiKapSi 01-24-04, 04:48 AM	I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said, but having read this thread (skimmed a few long bits) I'm on tenderhooks as to how this turns out. Well, I did have one idea. Goblins are greedy gullible cowards. Large groups of people, esp those with low intelligence, create the most amazing rumor mills. So an alter self spell, plus a little night time foray into the enemy camp. "Did you hear? The baron managed to raise an army to match ours. We are all dead when they arrive. I'm going to be leaving tonight. You might want to do the same." "The enemy have created a new spell that can kill an entire regiment of goblins at once. Did you know the the 1534th company went out on maneuvers, and never returned? I'm not staying around to experience it first hand." And then that goblin is never seen again...
Aluroon 01-25-04, 02:45 PM	First i want to clarify something, PhaedrusXY the spartons numbered less then 500, likely closer to 200 by most historys (unless your reading the persan side which says it was thosands). Beyond that what you said was good. Another idea you might want to try in your defense is a difficult and risky, but highly effective tactic where you attack during the night (or when there senses are impared. You take a small force, in your case i would suggest that it number anywhere from 500-1500, preferably calvery, although this is not nessersary. You attack both sides of the army and then retreat, they will (usually) follow. You then attack agin and retreat, just breif attacks desinged to angravate them. You do this until you have your enemys coming at you from your left and right, as well as streat ahead. This is the most risky part. You then must pull all your troops out suddenlly, without them nodicing to a large degree. This is why i suggest calvery (and preferably have your men be the most expeanced warriors- fighters of 2nd or beter level.This has been done in several instances, historicly. The goblins, harrased, angry, and tired, as well as with there sensed impared will (hopefully) come in from both sides and fall upon each other will a vengence (illisions are a good idea here to add to the confusion, make them look like humans and uses fog spells to help blind them). Many will die before they relize they have been had and when they do your long gone. This is espasially usful when your retreating and trying to keep the noncombatnats from being kill our caught. G2G now might say more later
Akathrielah 01-27-04, 10:41 PM	Chokepoints and blade barrier are your friends. Or Create war machines, the larger, the better. Set them down on the hordes, having half the army get juiced, squished, or sliced to pieces is very demoralizing. Barring that. Cavalry wreaks havoc on infantry, abso-f*cking-lutely murders them. If you guys can get a legion of highly trained cavaliers, then half the battle is in your pocket. Half 3 main groups, 1 to counter-attack, 1 to flank, and 1 waits. Have the largest group charge the main horde, then have another try to form a pincer, and have the last rush to whatever gaps the goblin horde left open. Or Get one epic level fighter w/ TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, Perfect TWF, Superior TWF, Cleave, Great Cleave and Supreme Cleave. Give him the best available equipment, and buff him with spells. Then head to the nearest tavern and have yourself a drink. 2 hours later, you should have 150,000+ corpses on the field. Edit: Stupid grammar
Trajan WhiteShield 01-28-04, 04:20 PM	To clarify some things (as a military history major) During the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD, the Roman Empire, in total, had some 600,000 legionnaires and auxiliaries in the Imperial Armies. While it is true that it was rare to see more than two or three legions in the field on a given battle, Rome used large amounts of auxiliaries to back up their legions, who acted as the "shock troops." For example, at the battle of Cannae in the 3rd century BC (excellent example of how a numerically and arguably qualitatively superior army can be destroyed by an inferior force), Rome put somewhere between 75-90,000 troops in the field against Hannibal's 35-40,000 Carthiginians... And Rome suffered casualties in excess of 60-80,000... While armies of more than 20,000 were rare, they did appear in major, massive campaigns. Reliable, modern estimates show the Persians in the 5th century BC marshalled around a quarter million troops for the invasion of Greece (compared to Herodotus' estimate of three million), and Alexander faced upwards of 150,000 Persians at Issus. There is ancient historical precedent for such massive armies, its just, as pointed out before, forces this large are a logistical nightmare to keep together for a long time. As for the comments regarding cavalry (depending on how historically accurate your DM is... I tend to be... oops), cavalry is very effective against infantry once the infantry has broken ranks. Before this, and the infantry can just lower their spears or pikes the cav is relatively useless. However, considering goblins are dumb, getting them to break ranks (opening gaps where the cav can come crashing through) can easily be done through a ruse... such as a fake retreat (to borrow from the playbook the Mongols used). The goblins ranks break to pursue, the cav comes in through the gaps... hack and slash fieldday.
SiegeSage 01-29-04, 01:38 PM	Our group gathered together yesterday to begin the siege of Threshold. The walls were manned with several thousand troops, the dam had been built to divert the lake into the oncoming horde, the fields had been oiled to drive the goblins into the center, the mages waited with spells ready, and the sewers were guarded by elite janitors. All preparations were made and we were ready for them. There was a meting called amongst th adventuring groups in the town to determine where we would be utilized during the coming battle. One group was designated to the wall, another - to the organization of triage centers, We were tasked as runners and messengers given our wide ranging movemnt capabilities and knowledges. (We have a sewer worker, a goblin with a helicopter/glider, and a mage capable of 55MPH on his horse). On the next day the horde attacked in the early morning - several hours after dawn. We all leaped from our beds and rushed toward our assigned positions when the warning bells were rung (suspiciously, they sounded like train whistles). As we rode, ran, or flew to recieve our orders from the command post. Seconds after we left the manor we were knocked senseless by a blast of immense magnitude. Mortimer's Glider was thrown from the sky, and I was knowcked from my mount. It took a moment to realize what had happened, but the mix of rubble, dirt, and bodies raining down upon us lead our eyes to a terrible sight. The entire outer wall was gone. It had been leveled by magic of inestimable power. Half of our force was gone in the first second, it had been manning the wall that morning. From that point on we were lost. Retreating to the inner wall didn't save us when the weather was turned to rain and storms, and later that night half the island went to ash when a wave of fireballs crashed over it. With the combined magic of several clerics we were able to part the river, red sea style, and retreat with the remaining 7000 survivors. Threshold stood for Two days. Thus the train pulled into the station, and we were allowed to step off, to await the next to come along.
Jaimas 01-29-04, 08:15 PM	I've been in CoC Campaigns with better survival chances.
SiegeSage 01-30-04, 01:09 PM	We were almost garunteed to survive it. One of the players (the goblin) had his character march to the front gate (he was at 11HP after the fall) to set off a small explosive. The character was seen by an ogre after he detonated the device and was then reduced to 0 HP. He then got behind a rock as the horde came rampaging through. Miraculously - the 19th level cleric of Thor that is one of the DM's pet NPC's - who was legitimately on the wall when it blew - shows up and, knowing the character is an ally proceeds to get him out of the mess. That was a vaguely believable scenario, but later on, when we retreated to the island - not one of us was hit by the fireball attack that leveled half of it. Not because we were explicitly doing things on the other side - but because we were basically "Not there". At no point during the attack were we given the ability to fight against the horde and in a conversation after the game the DM told us that while it was possible to keep the wall from blowing (by discovering the items that were used to do it - though the lues he left for us were minisscule at best), all that does is make the town fal in a week not two days. Later he stated that Even if we had come up with a way to "kill 150,000 goblins there would have been 4 million. Threshold is going to burn and there's nothing you can do." I understand the idea of the siege as backdrop for us, but at the same time - how can the world be a place that the characters can affect with statements like that being made? The other half of it is that while I know that we as a 5th level party couldn't stop it THE TOWN COULD, there was an 18th level PARAGON OGRE CLERIC just chiling in town for the whole damn thing (My guess is he could have done it alone). The 16th level adventuring party along with the 20th level paladin that just defeated the CR22 Abyssal black pudding/Left hand servant of Jubilex (Look it up in the BOVD if you want it's stats) didn't attempt to destroy the suply lines, didn't attempt to assasinate the leaders of the opposing army, didn't gather extraplanar help to evacuate the town. Didn't. Do. Squat. I suppose what I'm getting at is that if you want to make a situation unwinnable - don't drop in things that can win it and have them sit useless on the sidelines. Am I way off base here or do I have a point?
SnowAssassin 01-30-04, 02:40 PM	I say this!!!! First: Forget about drafting people. Anyone who is not a warrior must meet you in the center of the town. Second: Make the non-warriors stip down to nothing! Make them nude! Women and men alike! {Children under the age of 12 can hide in the homes}. Third: Have all of the warriors ready for war. Pull out those lazy clerics and get some magic ready. Fourth: Before the orcs come have the army of naked civilians outside of the city walls. Fifth: Get all of the warriors to defend the city. Sixth: Summon a bunch of animals and spirits and elemental thingies. Seventh: THIS IS IMPORTANT! Do this when the orcs are coming. It must be perfectly timed...... When you can see the orcs coming have the army of naked civilians run toward them but to the left of them. Tell them to runn their butts off. If you have to set some on fire do! This SHOULD cause a major distraction. In the chaos that follows.... SLAUGHTER THOSE ORCS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SnowAssassin 01-30-04, 02:43 PM	Sorry forgot this bit of important advice. Tie bombs to the naked people!;) You also might want the naked people to attack while the orcs are sleeping.
Jaimas 01-30-04, 10:43 PM	So now we slice on down to the meat-and-potatoes of it. Fact of the matter is, most of us called this one in advance. Now things migrate to vengeance. What level are you now, and what alignment/classes? Can you afford a migrate to CN? If so, have I got a plan for you. To a lesser degree, this will even work for a good character. Nothing gets to sticking it to the DM like good old fashioned, well-RPed revenge. First things first, you're a wizard - we know that - so you already have a foot in the doorway. You can afford an alignment breach, however huge, and still get all your powers and abilities. So here's the plan. First chance you get, have your character swear vengeance upon the goblinoids who were responsible for this BS, all the while secretly harboring your "DM will pay" feelings. Go around and level up. You need to. Hit at least level 35. Take the opportunity to be vocal about your vengeance, about 1/session. Announce that you are returning to Threshhold's Island via Teleport Wthout Error. Railing nothing, you're familiar with that area and it's all covered within the Rules. Once there, lay waste to EVERYTHING. Cast Rain of Fire or, if you've gone fully evil and have the BoVD, Apocalypse from the Sky, being sure to have appropriate elemental resistance in any case. Laugh maniacally at the screams of the suffering, launching massive, psychotic spells and execute whomsoever attempts to stop you. If things get too hairy, Teleport away again, and BAM! You're halfway across the world, reloading your massive arsenal. Return the next day and repeat this procedure, allowing your party cleric to heal any damage/ability drain that resulted from the previous assaults first. Rinse, repeat. Reduce the island to a smoldering ruin of death and kill any goblin you can see in a way that is exceedingly violent. Make this an example. If one of the "DM's Chosen" NPCs tries to stop you, make an example out of them. Preferably in a way that involves prolonged, excrutiating suffering, or leaving their smoldering carcass where everyone can see it after stealing its valuables. Then set a flag on the island where Threshold used to be, and go: "Morons. THIS is how you lay waste to an island. Do it right next time." And leave. Smile. :D
ethicalsean 01-30-04, 11:33 PM	Then ask your DM where the goblins found 1/2 million days food supply. Even modern armies (with trucks, planes, transport ships, etc.) require insane amounts of food and supplies. Ancient armies might be able to forage over a small area, but rarely fielded more than a few thousand. Those able to mount large armies (even Rome rarely got more than a few legions into a battle at once, say 20-30,000), required massive roads, carts, wagons, etc. Hell, armies this large (150k) didn't even start to be considered as viable until after Napolean... and he had nationalism to help back his troops. Just to give an example, I believe Scott's force during the Mexican war numbered around 11,000... and we didn't really get to ridiculously large numbers until the Civil War... and even then we didn't do a good job mobilizing them on the field (Bull Run for example). If the commander of this force is stupid enough to field such a large army, theres no doubt more then one of his subordinates wouldn't mind pushing him off the hill. 150k goblins, orcs, whatever all out together? Talk about disease running rampant in such a large group. I wont get into logistics, but suffice it to say, even during the recent Iraq campaign, news reports to some extent criticized our stretched logistics lines. I don't understand how such a large force could forage if the human settlements are so low on population... that at most you can draft 7,000 able men... If I were you, I'd pack my duffle bag and head to the next town over and pretend you never heard of the ridiculously improbable hoard of the Napolean goblins.
SnowAssassin 01-31-04, 06:10 PM	I say you capture you dm's pets and kill them to teach him! Then pray to the gods that he won't smite u.............
faludi 01-31-04, 09:34 PM	I just read through this thread for the first time. All I can say is, 'That sucks'. Your campaign is less an interactive game than a sit-a-round story telling session. All you need is a campfire and marshmallows and you're set. Sheesh. Do you know if this is typical of your DM? Does he know how lame it is? Good luck. -faludi
Lord Darkblade 01-31-04, 09:54 PM	Rule 0 (players): The game is a game, not a story, if we want a story we will read a book!
sturmhauke 02-02-04, 11:23 AM	Originally posted by SiegeSage I suppose what I'm getting at is that if you want to make a situation unwinnable - don't drop in things that can win it and have them sit useless on the sidelines. Am I way off base here or do I have a point? Well, I guess my earlier comment stands: Your DM sucks for arbitrarily disallowing things that could help the outcome. I suggest you find another DM.
SiegeSage 02-02-04, 12:53 PM	The sun of a Gun's storyline is just compelling enough to keep me there. And it is a good time in general - which is the most important part. Quite frankly - I almost always DM, and the idea of a game where dice don't get rolled so often is (GASP) not so bad (though my inner min-maxer is astounded I just made that comment). Just make sure that everyone (in the group) is okay with that kind of a game. I figure I'll bide my time till I can bend the cosmos to my will. As far as killing the Pet NPC's - they'll basically always be higher level; and one of them that we might eventually out level has been "cursed" with antimagic by the gods (think permanent antimagic field, personal range), is a rogue, and is the NPC version of the DM's first character (I suppose we'll just have to suffocate him ;)) The other thing I think I'll ask him is if he's willing to set down where he is and isn't departing from the SRD. I love a good storytelling ROLEplaying campaign, but a common grounding in the same ruleset would be nice eh?
bladegabe75 02-17-04, 01:34 AM	If you want my opinion, get wands of fireball, and lots of them. 100,000 goblins is a frekin ton though, i dont know what your DM is thinking, being 5th level especially, other than that, pray
Tevish Szat 02-17-04, 04:41 AM	so now there's a nasty goblin army going on down. This is the point where you want Mordenkein's Tactical Nuke or Hadoken, quite possibly multiples of both. If such highly destructive magic is not avaliable, you might consider the following. Get a Bigger army. No larger army avalible, get an army of something nasty. like dragons. a couple hundred metalic dragons of decent age will work wonders Release an abomination in ther general area. And make sure its one that can stand up to the goblins' leader and not some pansy anaxim! An Atropal, Phaephon (Sp?), or MAYBE an Infernal will do, but a Hecatoncheries is reccomended. Of course, you'll still have to deal with the Abomination (or the army should the army win) but either way your foe should be badly weakened. Wizards with wands of Cloudkill. Sure, the goblin high muck-mucks will be able to breathe it all day, but those little goblin grunts will drop like flys with no save! If you prefer higher level spells, try wail of the banshee and symbol of death attacks. even power word: kill set to many weak targets might do a decent job. Run like hell. Prefrably to the planes.
Nimrud 02-17-04, 05:48 AM	Originally posted by ethicalsean Hell, armies this large (150k) didn't even start to be considered as viable until after Napolean... and he had nationalism to help back his troops. Just to give an example, I believe Scott's force during the Mexican war numbered around 11,000... and we didn't really get to ridiculously large numbers until the Civil War... and even then we didn't do a good job mobilizing them on the field (Bull Run for example). If the commander of this force is stupid enough to field such a large army, theres no doubt more then one of his subordinates wouldn't mind pushing him off the hill. 150k goblins, orcs, whatever all out together? Talk about disease running rampant in such a large group. I wont get into logistics, but suffice it to say, even during the recent Iraq campaign, news reports to some extent criticized our stretched logistics lines. I don't understand how such a large force could forage if the human settlements are so low on population... that at most you can draft 7,000 able men... If I were you, I'd pack my duffle bag and head to the next town over and pretend you never heard of the ridiculously improbable hoard of the Napolean goblins. Round about the 12th century, the Jurchens, Khitan and Mongols were regularly fielding armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands. The Sung Chinese of that era had a standing army of about a million or so. So there is some archaic precedents for big armies of that size. Of course, we are talking about goblins here, not hobgoblins. It may be hard to envisage goblin civilisation being able to support an army this big, but that's all dependent on the campaign background I guess.