Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Torp 09-13-06, 12:21 PM	The first few paragraphs consists of general info and me being verbose. If you don't care to read it, the important stuff is: backup character, so level unknown, Core and Complete books (minus PHB2), (probably) daggerwielding dex fighter/melee rogue. Good campaign, so no PrC requiring evil alignment. I'm sitting here trying to build myself a low-level dex-fighter or melee-oriented rogue as a backup character for a newly started campaign I'm playing in. The GM said the campaign was quite dangerous, with the possibility of high lethality if we were unlucky, so I decided to roll up and plan a backup character there and then, so that I could get into play quite fast, should my current scout die. I'm not expecting to die anytime soon, but I thought I'd be on the safe side. Over the course of the last campaign I played in (my second D&D campaign, and with the same GM), an idea for a dagger-wielding dex-fighter grew on me. When I rolled pretty good stats for the backup character, I decided that I might as well realize the idea. A dex-based knife fighter isn't a very strong melee character, however, compared to many other builds, so I want to make him as effective as possible in his niche. This is where you come in. The GM only allows the Core and Complete books, with the exception of a whole lot of stuff from PHB2 (I believe he's only OKed the core classes so far) so that's where I need to get my build from. As of the last campaign, not everything Complete was OKed, though I'm unsure whether that has changed or not (his statement at the beginning of this campaign has lead me to believe that most of it has been OKed, but that's an assumption). So, on to the character. The stats I've rolled up are, in descending order: 18 17 15 15 13 7 I'm pretty sure the character will be human. It fits my concept the best, and I can't see any other race being a much better choice. Currently, I'm looking at a combination of Rogue and Swashbuckler as classes for my first levels. I kinda like the Swashbuckler ability Insightful Strike (Int bonus as Damage Bonus). Another bonus is that it has the required skills for Invisible Blade as class skills. The Invisible Blade is quite high up on my wishlist for PrC, since it is actually a knife-fighter. It also offers an armour bonus equal to Int bonus, up to class levels in IB. This is nice, as it's dependent upon the same stat as Insightful Strike (and if the GM OKs mithril light armour counting as unarmoured, it should give me a fairly good AC fairly cheaply). However, the feint bonuses come fairly late, and I'll probably be at level 9 before getting the first (and 11 before I get the free-action feint). I can have Improved Feint a whole lot earlier, but that would be throwing away a feat that I would get for free later on (unless some errata has made them stackable, so that you get the free-action feint at that point instead). Also, the feat requirements of Point Blank Shot and Far Shot, as well as Weapon Focus(Dagger), means that I won't have much flexibility in my choice of feats. Getting Weapon Finesse from the Swashbuckler helps a bit, of course. Another PrC I've looked a bit at is the Street Fighter. The Stand Tough could be rather nice to add some survivability. The Initiative bonus is also nice. It does however somewhat exclude the IB, as it requires Improved Feint, which suddenly take the numbers of required feats up a bit too high. So, currently, my idea is something like this, I think: Human Str 13 Dex 17 Con 15 Int 18 Wis 7 Cha 15 Lvl1:Rogue1 (feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, class feats: Sneak attack d6, trapfinding) Lvl2:Swashbuckler1 (class feat: Weapon Finesse) Lvl3:Swashbuckler2 (feat:Two-Weapon Fighting, class feat: Grace+1) Lvl4:Swashbuckler3 (+1Dex, class feat: Insightful Strike) Lvl5:Rogue2 (class feat: Evasion) Lvl6:Rouge3 (feat: Weapon Focus(Daggers), class feat: Sneak Attack 2d6, trap sense+1) And then start branching off into Invisible Blade. I am thinking that I might need a fourth level of rogue,for the Uncanny Dodge, and I'm unsure wheter or not I should take Rogue2 and 3 before or after Swashbuckler2 and 3. I'm also thinking that I would be better off taking Weapon Focus(Daggers) at lvl3, and two-weapon fighting at lvl6. Or possibly even drop the entire two-weapon fighting and go for something else. Thoughts? Modifications you would make? Or would you try a completely different build? Remember that it has to be acceptably effective (that is, not horribly underpowered) from lvl3 or 4 and up, as I hope that's the (earliest) point at which I'll be in need of him.
FateSpinnerXXIII 09-13-06, 02:21 PM	Seems decent to me, but im sure others will have problems. Also I would take Two-Weapon Fighting at 3rd instead of 6th. I would rather have 2 attacks at 3rd with minus 2 / minus 2 then 1 attack with +1 to it. Just my prefrence.
Dei 09-13-06, 02:48 PM	Looks like a good build so far. If you wanted to concentrate more on combat ability than stealth and skills though you could drop the swashbuckler levels and put a two level fighter dip, this will net you two extra feats though admitedly you loose the swashbuckler class feats from it. However it would mean that by level three you could have: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility and Combat Reflexes or Weapon Focus (Scimitar). These would mean that the moment you hit +5 BAB you'd be in a position to look at the Dervish from Complete Warrior which is probably the ultimate dex fighter PrC, take it from someone who's played one. The PrC goes really well with Shadowdancer too as they've got mostly the same pre-requisites and the hide in plain sight and darkvision abilities come in oh so handy. If you want a level by level break down I'll provide one but I don't want to take up to much space if you're not interested.
Puca 09-13-06, 04:11 PM	Human Str 13 Dex 17 Con 15 Int 18 Wis 7 Cha 15I might think about swapping these two stats. By the time you get to the level where you can gain real combat bonuses from Int, you should be able to afford a Headband of Intellect or have a caster to buff you with with Foxs Cunning. The other benefit you get from Int is skill points, but with a rogue/swashbuckler and the human bonus, they are already pretty damn good. The benefit for putting that 18 in Cha is your Bluffing. The IB is sort of a one-trick pony: free-action feints. Your ability to feint in melee has to be as absolutely good as it can be. Lvl1:Rogue1 (feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, class feats: Sneak attack d6, trapfinding) Lvl2:Swashbuckler1 (class feat: Weapon Finesse) Lvl3:Swashbuckler2 (feat:Two-Weapon Fighting, class feat: Grace+1) Lvl4:Swashbuckler3 (+1Dex, class feat: Insightful Strike) Lvl5:Rogue2 (class feat: Evasion) Lvl6:Rouge3 (feat: Weapon Focus(Daggers), class feat: Sneak Attack 2d6, trap sense+1)Keeping the last two levels as rogue is a good idea. Fighter is a good way to go for those bonus feats, but considering the skill-points, the evasion, the additional Sneak-Attack die and the fact that you still gain 2 to you BAB with those two rogue levels, I think it is a better way to go.
Cochise 09-13-06, 08:15 PM	Two levels in fighter would give you 2 feats
trapspringer 09-13-06, 08:59 PM	Not worth it. Sneak attack and evasion are better than feats. I'd get some UA approved and go SA fighter, personally.
Torp 09-14-06, 08:49 AM	Keeping the last two levels as rogue is a good idea. Fighter is a good way to go for those bonus feats, but considering the skill-points, the evasion, the additional Sneak-Attack die and the fact that you still gain 2 to you BAB with those two rogue levels, I think it is a better way to go. Sorry, I think I was a bit unclear. What I meant was that I was unsure whether I should take the two rogue levels before or after the two last Swashbuckler levels. Looks like a good build so far. If you wanted to concentrate more on combat ability than stealth and skills though you could drop the swashbuckler levels and put a two level fighter dip, this will net you two extra feats though admitedly you loose the swashbuckler class feats from it. However it would mean that by level three you could have: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility and Combat Reflexes or Weapon Focus (Scimitar). These would mean that the moment you hit +5 BAB you'd be in a position to look at the Dervish from Complete Warrior which is probably the ultimate dex fighter PrC, take it from someone who's played one. While the Dervish road is a quite different concept, I must admit that it seems quite fun and interesting. So yes, please, do give me a level breakdown, as well as any swaps of stats you would suggest. Thank you for the idea.
Puca 09-14-06, 09:42 AM	Sorry, I think I was a bit unclear. What I meant was that I was unsure whether I should take the two rogue levels before or after the two last Swashbuckler levels.No, I was. Those two rogue levels are better than swashbuckler levels. I dont recall off the top of my head what the swashbuckler offers after level 3, but I do recall that nothing beyond level 3 was worth remembering. I also think that they would offer more than two fighter levels (which I addressed because Dei suggested it.)
Dei 09-14-06, 01:43 PM	Stats look good for the most part, shove level 4 increase into Dex and it's just dandy. Right, rough level by level break down: 1)Rogue- weapon finesse, Two Weapon Fighting [sneak attack 1d6, trapfinding] 2)Fighter- Dodge 3)Fighter- Mobility, Combat Expertise 4)Rogue- +1 Dex [Evasion] 5)Rogue- [Sneak attack 2d6, trap sense +1] 6)Rogue- Weapon Focus(any slashing weapon) [Uncanny Dodge] 7)Dervish- [Dervish Dance 1/day, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades] 8)Dervish- +1 Con [Fast Movement +5] 9)Dervish- Imp Two Weapon Fighting [Spring Attack, Dervish Dance 2/day] 10)Rogue- [Sneak attack 3d6] There's a rough idea. At 9 you could grab combat reflexes instead and start popping levels into shadowdancer too if it takes your fancy. If you want you can also fiddle about with the order of levels 1-6 as it makes little difference to the evolution of the character. Btw I do agree that any build like this benefits greatly from rogue levels 2 and 3 but to become effective in combat early on you just can't beat a two level fighter dip to bump up HP and other options. Hope this helps.
Torp 09-14-06, 04:14 PM	Thanks, Dei. I am now seriously considering that one. Seems like an effective build, and playing a dancing fighter seems somehow interesting... One thing, though. I'm not sure about this one, as I don't know exactly how Prestige Classes work in the context of multiclassing and xp penalties, but assuming that PrCs don't affect XP, the character might be slightly better off exchanging the first level of Fighter for a level of Swashbuckler, and take dodge at character creation. It would get a better Fort save and two more skillpoints (as well as more class skills). This means that the character can't take many more levels in Fighter later, of course, but with the Dervish PrC being 10 levels, I doubt that will be much of a problem. No, I was. Those two rogue levels are better than swashbuckler levels. I dont recall off the top of my head what the swashbuckler offers after level 3, but I do recall that nothing beyond level 3 was worth remembering. I also think that they would offer more than two fighter levels (which I addressed because Dei suggested it.) The lvl3 class feature is the insightful strike, which adds int bonus to damage for Weapon Finesse-able weapons, as long as the creature is not immune to sneak attacks. The levels above don't offer much of very much interest, that's true, but that's the reason why I didn't plan to take more levels in the class anyway. With +4 on int, I'd say that the Insightful Strike is better than the extra d6 of sneak damage. It is not depentant upon the enemy losing dex bonus, and slightly more damage than an average roll with a d6. The class also adds a bit of hit points (as much as the fighter) and BAB, which is most definitely needed in a character that's supposed to be melee-oriented.
Dei 09-14-06, 05:49 PM	With +4 on int, I'd say that the Insightful Strike is better than the extra d6 of sneak damage. It is not depentant upon the enemy losing dex bonus, and slightly more damage than an average roll with a d6. The class also adds a bit of hit points (as much as the fighter) and BAB, which is most definitely needed in a character that's supposed to be melee-oriented. Agreed but don't forget you need to invest three levels to get at it whereas the extra d6 of sneak attack is just a one level investment. That is unless you were to dump the rogue levels and replace them with swashbuckler. You'd loose a lot on that trade in though... As for hitpoints one of the beauties of this build is that the enemy will rarely get a full attack on you. Just make sure that once you've attacked you move at least 10feet away (or out of their reach, whichever) and they will have to spend a move action to catch you and attack you. Once you get feats like improved trip or improved disarm in on the mix it means that vs melee attackers the character will rarely if ever be in serious danger of loosing too many HP. And if things do get hairy there's few better builds for getting out of harms way as quickly as possible.
Torp 09-14-06, 06:07 PM	I was talking about my original build. The Dervish build would not benefit from a 3-level dip into Swashbuckler, as I see it (there is the 1-level dip I suggested, if my assumptions are correct, though). The original build needed some non-rogue levels to gain HP and BAB, however, so the Swashbuckler was the best choice (even if the three levels cost almost 2d6 of sneak attack damage). The more I think about it, the more I start to like the dervish build...
gorfnad the shiznit 09-15-06, 12:42 AM	I'm surprised no one has mentioned the machine gun rogue yet. 1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot 2. Rogue 3. Rogue - Precise Shot 4. Swashbuckler - Weapon Finnese for free! 5. Swashbuckelr 6. Swashbuckler - Int to damage!, Weapon Focus: Dagger 7. Fighter - Two Weapon Fighting 8. Fighter - Far Shot 9. Fighter - Improved Two Weapon Fighting 10. Fighter - Weapon Specialization: Dagger 11. Invisible Blade 12. Invisible Blade - Craven 13. Invisible Blade 14 .Invisible Blade 15. Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting 16. Master Thrower 17. Master Thrower - Quick Draw for free! 18. Master Thrower - Rapid Shot 19. Master Thrower 20. Master Thrower Since you're human pick up Combat Reflexes at first level as your bonus feat and your set. Or take Craven at first level and Combat Reflexes at 12th.
Dei 09-15-06, 05:58 AM	Well the machine gun is a good build but the thing is it doesn't become really effective until level 15ish and Torp is possibly going to need it as early as 3rd or 4th. While it's not underpowered at these levels, it's not really anything special either.
ardh05 09-16-06, 01:01 AM	If it were me building the character... I'd put in Ninja levels instead of Rogue... (I really like the Ghost step and Ki dodge abilities...) but the draw back is that Ninjas run best unarmored... which means they aren't really meant for prolonged combat... but neither are Rogues... I believe Ninja is in the Complete Adventurer...
JenhraTuvam 09-25-06, 02:41 PM	The original poster mentioned his "scout" possibly dying. Was this a reference to the Scout class in Complete Adventurer, or just a scout type character (i.e. rogue or ranger)? Regardless, if you are interested in the dervish type character, but like the abilities of the rogue, you may want to consider the Scout. They get the same number of skill points as the rogue. They also get the trapfinding (and according to the errata, Disable Device is a class skill) and so can do well in replacing a rogue. They get Skirmish instead of Sneak Attack though. Skirmish requires that you move 10 feet before the damage increase applies, instead of requiring you to flank or deny Dex to your opponent to get the extra damage. Moving this distance before your attack won't be a problem for a Dervish (or for a Spring Attacker if dances are already used for the day). Depending on how far you want to take it, they get bonus feats (from a fairly broad list) every 4 levels, and their Skirmish ability adds to AC. They also get an increase to their movement rate, very handy for a dancing dervish who gets their full attack at full movement rate. Granted, you won't get as many bonus dice as you do with Sneak attack (because Skirmish damage progression is slower), but it will apply in more situations (unless you can get your hands on improved invisibility) for your character build. I'm looking at a similar backup character for my current Rogue/Thief-Acrobat. I think it would be cool to model a character after that character in the PS3 game "Heavenly Sword." Dervish fits it perfectly.
Torp 09-27-06, 08:30 AM	It was the Scout class, yes, and the idea is pretty good, except for one thing: Perform is not one of the Scouts class skills. The Dervish needs to max out his Perform(dance) skill so that his Dervish Dance lasts as long as possible, especially as he's fatigued for the rest of the encounter after he's finished it. Now, if there's a feat hidden somewhere that allows a character to count a skill as a class skill for all his classes (or just one of his classes, really), then the Scout would be a very interesting choice.
shaft350x 09-27-06, 03:40 PM	If you don't mind being an elf or a half-elf you could fit the Champion of Corellon Larethian in. They get their DEX added to their damage. It takes a lot of feats to get into, so the best route is actually fighter, it also has a high BAB requirement. I'm playing one in a campaign now and it is nice to only have to worry about one stat.
Jinta 09-27-06, 07:54 PM	The Dervish build is a fun one to play - but I'd absolutely add just one level of scout in there somewhere. Skirmish damage on each attack you make when you move 10 feet or more. 1d6 extra damage, and if you're dancing, adds up quickly! Also - it stacks with sneak attack, so if you get sneak attack, you do really nice dmg. If you go this way, I'd switch your Cha and Str: the extra damage will be more useful, and you wouldn't be relying on feint. js
psionichamster 09-27-06, 08:28 PM	hm...you could take the feat "Able Learner" from Races of Destiny human only, lets you take cross-class skills at 1/rank, rather than 1/2skill ranks. doesn't increase the max ranks, though, so you'd need at least 1 class with perform as a class skill scout/rogue2 seems like a viable move hear, assuming you're looking for dervish. also: be sure to watch your prereq's. weapon finesse requires BAB +1, so no taking it at 1st lvl if you're a rogue. that's where swashbuckler really shines in there. but i would second the look at Ninja...if you're gonna be a spotty/seeing scouty type, ninja is quite nice, and if you crank up your wis, not only do you affect your ac, but also your will save and ki abilities. namaste' the hamster
JenhraTuvam 09-28-06, 03:18 PM	Well, looking at it closer, the Scout's movement increase is an enhancement bonus. This is the same as the Dervish's, so they don't stack (unless you can convince your DM otherwise). So you may not need to go very deep into Scout. Also, the requirements for Dervish only require 3 ranks in Perform. This can be easily cross-classed by a Scout since they have so many skill points. Once you get Dervish, it is a class skill and you can pump it up to make up for lost levels. Depending on what other roles you'd like to fulfill, you can also go Bard. Four Levels will get you the ability to cast two different 2nd level spells. You will get bardic knowledge (making you very useful out of combat). You get the ability to inspire courage, which is a bonus to hit and damage (even against opponents immune to critical hits). True it's only 1 point for each, but it also applies to all allies who can hear your performance. Having other melee fighters with this bonus can result in much more damage than insightful strike alone. That means that the THW power attacking barbarian can raise his damage by 3 for each attack. Or it might mean that he doesn't take a penalty to hit, and that +1 turns a near miss into a hit, resulting in 20 more points of damage on an enemy (or possibly more than one with Cleave in effect). Some nice spells can be available to you, such as Expeditious Retreat (increase speed by 30ft [enchancement]), cure light wounds (nice to be able to self heal or heal the part some, and since it's on your spell list, you can use the wands freely), cat's grace (even more Dex!), Blur (miss chance, nice since you will be invoking AoO) or Mirror Image (would look pretty awesome having 5 dervishes dancing around all the enemies!). You'd have nice Reflex and Will saves also. Take a level of fighter for the feat and martial weapon proficiency (or swashbuckler if you want to use it to get weapon finesse). The bard is not optimized for combat though. But it is a well rounded character, being very useful out of combat, and also able to buff the whole party. Nothing like being able to sing about the death of your enemies while you are making it happen! Quite flavorful too. It will require you to raise sing and dance, but imagine the roleplaying opportunities! And if you are looking for other ideas, just check out: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=629013
Machin_shin 09-28-06, 05:37 PM	About the invisible blade idea: I stumbled upon the homepage of the designer for tha prestigeclass a while ago. Apparently Invisible Blade was supposed to have been a 10-level Prestige Class from the beginning, but it was decided it was going to stop at 5. The latter levels had some nifty class abilities regarding ranged combat too, and that is the reason why the class has Far shot and Point Blank Shot in the prerequisites. The designer had also written that they should have been removed, but were missed. Unfortunately i don't have the URL for the page, but maybe someone other can verify this?
Juzzman 09-28-06, 06:43 PM	Be aware that the errata for CW includes an nerf for invisible blade. You can only use Uncanny Feint (bluff as a free action) ONCE PER ROUND so you will not be a sneak attack machine via feinting. Juz