Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keevo_Darkwood 09-02-06, 08:44 AM	I've been pondering the part of the monk's text in the PHB that states "the evil subterranean elves known as drow have a small but successful monk tradition". It's gotten my creative juices flowing a bit, wanting to roll up a drow monk. :) The thing is: I'm wondering what sort of fighting styles would fit the small but successful drow monk tradition. Whether it be core feat combos or "splat book" advantages, I'm not too concerned. I'd like to power-game this one a bit, but I do not want this guy earning any dues in the Lollipop Guild, if you get my meaning. ;) Any constructive assistance would be much appreciated; even if your ideas don't fit, they may lead to something that does. BTW, this monk doesn't worship Eilistraee or Lolth, if that matters at all.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-02-06, 09:53 AM	Do not try to be a melee warrior as a drow monk. Combine the small HD with the LA and the racial Con penalty and you'll be roadkill for lack of hp, the general elf Dex boost isn't going to protect you from that. Being a hit and run skirmisher (Spring Attack with maxed Tumble ranks) could be a good way to go, as could playing it like a stealth assassin (Freezing the Lifeblood and Death Blow, along with maxed Hide and Move Silently and any other movement-related skills you need to get into position). A barrage of poisoned shuriken (flurry of blows, Rapid Shot and possibly the TWF line) from a distance could work, but it'd be costly, and you'd need to look into some way to get Poison Use, poison immunity or significantly boosted Fort saves to protect yourself from mishaps.
Harrowdroth 09-06-06, 11:55 PM	Talk with your Dm about allowing you to take Weapon finnese at first level, I allowed one of my players to do it, Worked out great.
Aeromus 09-06-06, 11:57 PM	PHBII has great alternate monk bonus feat prgression
babysamurai 09-07-06, 07:31 AM	Vile drow aberrant limbs chaos monks – my players hate running into these dudes. Yes, drows make wonderful monks.
Polaris 09-07-06, 03:12 PM	Vile drow aberrant limbs chaos monks – my players hate running into these dudes. Yes, drows make wonderful monks. Drow make terrible monks. They are the sum of weaknesses rather than strengths. The Monk's big problem is a lack of bab, and a lack of hit points which makes him unsuited for a fighter role. Even as a skirmisher, it's a real problem (esp combined with an fairly low AC for the Monk early). In addition, the Monk needs high Wis, Con, Dex, and Str. I.E. It has a MAD problem. The Monk's big draw is that once he gets going, he can be very hard to hurt with his special abilities, esp his high saves, immunities, and SR (and movement!) Now let's look at the Drow: -2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha +2 Will saves vs Spells 120' Darkvision Lightblindess Some cantrips (listed in the description) Prof with Short Sword or Rapier and Xbows 11+level in SR LA+2 The only stat gain that the drow gains that is any good at all to the Monk is the +2 Dex, but he gets a crippling (for a Monk) -2 Con to go with it. The +2 Will saves vs spells don't mean much for a Monk who will have sky-high will saves anyway (good wis+good will save). The 11+level SR actually interferes with the Monk ability gained at 13th level and thus takes a Monk class feature away. The 120' Darkvision is good but the lightblindness is terrible. Worst of all, you are smacked with ANOTHER two level penalty which means that you even more hit points, and bab which you can ill afford to lose AND you are two levels down with regard to gaining class abilities. There's a description of a Drow Monk: Road Kill -Polaris
DarkNick 09-07-06, 04:06 PM	Drow make terrible monks. They are the sum of weaknesses rather than strengths. The Monk's big problem is a lack of bab, and a lack of hit points which makes him unsuited for a fighter role. Even as a skirmisher, it's a real problem (esp combined with an fairly low AC for the Monk early). In addition, the Monk needs high Wis, Con, Dex, and Str. I.E. It has a MAD problem. The Monk's big draw is that once he gets going, he can be very hard to hurt with his special abilities, esp his high saves, immunities, and SR (and movement!) Now let's look at the Drow: -2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha +2 Will saves vs Spells 120' Darkvision Lightblindess Some cantrips (listed in the description) Prof with Short Sword or Rapier and Xbows 11+level in SR LA+2 The only stat gain that the drow gains that is any good at all to the Monk is the +2 Dex, but he gets a crippling (for a Monk) -2 Con to go with it. The +2 Will saves vs spells don't mean much for a Monk who will have sky-high will saves anyway (good wis+good will save). The 11+level SR actually interferes with the Monk ability gained at 13th level and thus takes a Monk class feature away. The 120' Darkvision is good but the lightblindness is terrible. Worst of all, you are smacked with ANOTHER two level penalty which means that you even more hit points, and bab which you can ill afford to lose AND you are two levels down with regard to gaining class abilities. There's a description of a Drow Monk: Road Kill -Polaris I disagree with this. A drow monk would have pretty good AC (+2 dex), a good number of skills points (+2 int), and great at things like intimidation and diplomacy (+2 charisma). They get a bit of magic resistance, some spell likepowers and stong will saves. Sounds cool to me. Perhpas if you look at it in pure toe to toe combat terms they may not be so great, but as a balanced character I think they rock. If you think a character 'needs' high Str, Wis, Dex, Con then you can always put higher stats in these. No problemo.
Feriin 09-07-06, 05:25 PM	The Monk's big draw is that once he gets going, he can be very hard to hurt with his special abilities, esp his high saves, immunities, and SR (and movement!) A monks saves are not really that high at all. Give me 8 levels to make a PC and I can out do a monks saves even at 20th level. SR is not too difficult to overcome either.
starfire311 09-07-06, 05:26 PM	A monks saves are not really that high at all. Give me 8 levels to make a PC and I can out do a monks saves even at 20th level. SR is not too difficult to overcome either. fine you have 8 levels and 1 class go for it.
Feriin 09-07-06, 05:34 PM	fine you have 8 levels and 1 class go for it. I never said with 1 class, however I can still pull it off. I just need a little bit to look over a few things. I'll post the build at about 10pm est.
starfire311 09-07-06, 05:48 PM	I never said with 1 class, however I can still pull it off. I just need a little bit to look over a few things. I'll post the build at about 10pm est. I know that isn't what you meant... You implied that the monks saves werent so great, my response was basically, show me a class that has better saves. I am libraly paraphrasing and yes it is possible for paladins to get better save.
Keevo_Darkwood 09-07-06, 06:12 PM	The 11+level SR actually interferes with the Monk ability gained at 13th level and thus takes a Monk class feature away. Drow SR > monk SR; for one thing, a drow's SR is available right away. At 1st level, SR 12 >> SR 0 (far from being "taken away" from the list of abilities, it's moved up to the top of said list). Even when a drow monk reaches level 13, he's still marginally better off than a 13th-level non-drow monk (11 + 13 > 10 + 13). The 120' Darkvision is good but the lightblindness is terrible. Two words: Daylight Adaptation. That li'l gem of a feat eliminates the attack penalty in question. For drow and orcs (especially PCs and important NPCs) that spend less than 75% of their waking life below ground, it's pretty much a must-have for any class, IMO. Worst of all, you are smacked with ANOTHER two level penalty which means that you even more hit points, and bab which you can ill afford to lose AND you are two levels down with regard to gaining class abilities. *nods* Yes, that is a bit of a handicap, but it's hardly insurmountable. Shaggy_Shaggs was right when he spoke of the way to play a drow monk in a fight. Drow monks (indeed, monks of any Elf sub-race) would do much better fighting like an M-sized Yoda (using his speed and mobility to make himself tough as hell to hit, then exploiting the openings in his opponent's defense that inevitably occur when said opponent is trying hard just to lay a finger on him) than he'd do by fighting like Ivan Drago (played by Dolph Lundgren in Rocky IV; his boxing style was basically standing there daring his smaller opponent to hit him, no-selling said hits, then unleashing a massive amount of ownage when the time came for him to start hitting back). Besides, Complete Adventurer provides for a way to eliminate the LA. There's a description of a Drow Monk: Road Kill Hmmmm. Methinks that, instead of "road kill" being a suitable description of my drow monk, it could serve rather well as a recurring quote of his to describe his opponents. :D
Polaris 09-07-06, 07:57 PM	Drow SR > monk SR; for one thing, a drow's SR is available right away. At 1st level, SR 12 >> SR 0 (far from being "taken away" from the list of abilities, it's moved up to the top of said list). Even when a drow monk reaches level 13, he's still marginally better off than a 13th-level non-drow monk (11 + 13 > 10 + 13). Actually it's worse. A thirteenth level human monk will have an SR of 23. At the same level, an eleventh level drow monk will have an SR of 22. When you compare, compare apples to applies and INCLUDE the LA. The one advantage is that the Drow gets SR right away (which is partially why the LA exists), but when you include the LA, the SR for the drow is really 9+ECL which stinks. Two words: Daylight Adaptation. That li'l gem of a feat eliminates the attack penalty in question. For drow and orcs (especially PCs and important NPCs) that spend less than 75% of their waking life below ground, it's pretty much a must-have for any class, IMO. That's terrific (sarcasm), now instead of just being ONE feat down because of LA, you are TWO feats down just to break even. That's sounds like a (sarcasm) terrific idea. *nods* Yes, that is a bit of a handicap, but it's hardly insurmountable. Shaggy_Shaggs was right when he spoke of the way to play a drow monk in a fight. Drow monks (indeed, monks of any Elf sub-race) would do much better fighting like an M-sized Yoda (using his speed and mobility to make himself tough as hell to hit, then exploiting the openings in his opponent's defense that inevitably occur when said opponent is trying hard just to lay a finger on him) than he'd do by fighting like Ivan Drago (played by Dolph Lundgren in Rocky IV; his boxing style was basically standing there daring his smaller opponent to hit him, no-selling said hits, then unleashing a massive amount of ownage when the time came for him to start hitting back). Actually it is pretty much an insurmountable handicap. There is no sanctioned way to get rid of LA and it gets worse as you go up in level. Any other elf (or human) monk can have all the advatanges you list and be two levels higher. LA isn't as crushing a disadvantage to a Monk as it is to a spellcaster, but of all the non-casting classes, the Monk gets hurt first and worst by LA. Besides, Complete Adventurer provides for a way to eliminate the LA. Nope. You mean Unearthed Arcana and that's (by the book's own admission) not balanced and experimental and not something you should count on. Hmmmm. Methinks that, instead of "road kill" being a suitable description of my drow monk, it could serve rather well as a recurring quote of his to describe his opponents. :D I don't think so. Losing two Monk levels in an already weak class makes the Monk roadkill because the Drow doesn't give the Monk any abilities that come close to making up the difference. Pretty much any advantage you ascribe to the Drow Monk can be done equally better by the Elf Monk without the two level handicap. -Polaris
AZNsupermarket 09-07-06, 08:46 PM	I'm going to have to agree with Polaris on this one. Drow don't make great monks. LA stink. Drow weren't made to be monks. Monks aren't that powerful in the first place and being a drow doesn't really help. I just hope that this is going to be an NPC in a campaign and not a PC. The PC would be very week indeed regardless of how well built he is.
Keevo_Darkwood 09-07-06, 08:53 PM	Nope. You mean Unearthed Arcana and that's (by the book's own admission) not balanced and experimental and not something you should count on. Ah. *nods* On that point, you are definitely correct. It was Unearthed Arcana; I stand corrected.
coppro 09-07-06, 08:55 PM	Well, they do get +2 Dex and +2 Wis, which translates to +2 AC automatically. And if they were to use they're darkness ability well, they could work on a jump. Still, they just don't work that well together.
AZNsupermarket 09-07-06, 09:52 PM	Well, they do get +2 Dex and +2 Wis, which translates to +2 AC automatically. And if they were to use they're darkness ability well, they could work on a jump. Still, they just don't work that well together. actually, they don't even have a bonus to wisdom.
Keevo_Darkwood 09-07-06, 10:08 PM	actually, they don't even have a bonus to wisdom. *gasps* OMG! Coppro just made a false claim; I say we lynch him NOW!! :plotting: :evillaugh :schemes:
AZNsupermarket 09-07-06, 10:23 PM	*gasps* OMG! Coppro just made a false claim; I say we lynch him NOW!! :plotting: :evillaugh :schemes: I'm sorry, but I have trouble understanding your intent on this post. Is it that your angry that I sided with polaris on this argument, then went on to correct a minor mistake someone else made just like he corrected your complete adventurer/unearthed arcana thing or is this an attempt at humor? I sided with polaris because I genuinely believe that he makes a good point. In fact a lot of the things that were said in defense of the drow are flat out wrong. I'll go over them in my next post. EDIT: meant to say before "what was said in defense of the Drow Monk"
AZNsupermarket 09-07-06, 10:32 PM	A drow monk would have pretty good AC (+2 dex) well if they weren't a race with a LA, they would be two levels higher, making this fact negligible half the time when compared to a race with no LA of the same ECL because of the AC boost every four levels. a good number of skills points (+2 int) They wouldn't actually have a lot of skill points because of the level adjustment. A race without level adjustment would have a lot more skill points at the same ECL intimidation and diplomacy (+2 charisma). A race without level adjustment would have at lot more points to put into these skills at the same ECL.
Polaris 09-07-06, 10:45 PM	I want to make this points in addition to those AZN made which I agree with. I disagree with this. A drow monk would have pretty good AC (+2 dex), An Elven Monk also gets +2 Dex and doesn't suffer from an LA. a good number of skills points (+2 int), Actually that's equal to a human monk before you factor in the LA. When you factor in the LA, you find that the Drow Monk has an effective -2 Int with regard to skill points because he is two levels down (and that's compared with a non-human monk)...and just to make it completely "fair" he also has two less maximum ranks to boot. and great at things like intimidation and diplomacy (+2 charisma). Diplomacy is the only charisma based class skill on the Monk's list and it's not like the Drow Monk has the skill points to spare. They get a bit of magic resistance, Which winds up being worse in the long run than he would get if he were a human or an elf. some spell likepowers and stong will saves. The spell-like powers are truely minor (and Darkness affects those with Darkvision just as much as any other kind of normal vision). You are also forgetting lightblindness which truly sucks. Yes you can get rid of it for a feat, but that means you are two feats down from an elven Monk now (and three from a human monk). A Monk can't afford this. As for Will saves, that's only against Will and Elves in general get at least some of it back (vs Enchantment/Charms), and Monks are going to have stellar will saves anyway. Sounds cool to me. Perhpas if you look at it in pure toe to toe combat terms they may not be so great, but as a balanced character I think they rock. The problem is they aren't. Drow monks quite objectively stink for all the reasons I have listed. If you think a character 'needs' high Str, Wis, Dex, Con then you can always put higher stats in these. No problemo. That isn't always true especially when everyone else gets stat gains two levels before you do. Here is the problem with the Drow Monk: Although a drow fully deserves his +2 LA, as a MONK, there is nothing the Drow gives you that is worth one LA much less two. -Polaris
Endarrion 09-07-06, 10:45 PM	I've been pondering the part of the monk's text in the PHB that states "the evil subterranean elves known as drow have a small but successful monk tradition". It's gotten my creative juices flowing a bit, wanting to roll up a drow monk. :) The thing is: I'm wondering what sort of fighting styles would fit the small but successful drow monk tradition. Whether it be core feat combos or "splat book" advantages, I'm not too concerned. I'd like to power-game this one a bit, but I do not want this guy earning any dues in the Lollipop Guild, if you get my meaning. ;) Any constructive assistance would be much appreciated; even if your ideas don't fit, they may lead to something that does. BTW, this monk doesn't worship Eilistraee or Lolth, if that matters at all. Another thread that starts off as, "Please help me blah blah blah," and ends with, "That idea is stupid!!11!" Notice the bolded parts of the original post. Let's try to focus on that. I think the idea is great. I hear tell that there are a lot of good monk feats in the PHB 2 and I've seen quite a few very nice monk feats in the Complete Warrior. You should probably check those two first. I'd say you should probably focus on hit and run tactics. Not only is it mechanically effective for your character, but it sounds really cool for a drow monk too :) And as far as the LA goes (without citing FP) the drow aren't worth the +2 LA (more like +1 LA). Wanna drop the LA? Drop the bonus to INT and CHA, drop the spell-like abilities (or lower their effectiveness) and drop the SR altogether. There you have it. The *mostly* balanced drow at LA +0. You could even add a couple of bonuses to skills or something to offset the dropping of the ability bonuses and SR. Have fun with your drow monk, it sounds really awesome.
Keevo_Darkwood 09-07-06, 10:55 PM	I'm sorry, but I have trouble understanding your intent on this post. Is it that your angry that I sided with polaris on this argument, then went on to correct a minor mistake someone else made just like he corrected your complete adventurer/unearthed arcana thing or is this an attempt at humor? I sided with polaris because I genuinely believe that he makes a good point. In fact a lot of the things that were said in defense of the drow are flat out wrong. I'll go over them in my next post. EDIT: meant to say before "what was said in defense of the Drow Monk" I'm sorry about that. It was meant to be directed at Coppro, not you. Coppro and I are both Mafia players, y'see. In Mafia, getting caught making a false claim will raise a large red flag in the eyes of the Town team, most likely leading them to label the false claimant as part of the Mafia team (whether s/he actually is or not), and since the objective for the Town is to eliminate Mafia-team members from the game by lynching them, well...now you get the idea. :D
Polaris 09-07-06, 10:56 PM	Endarrin, Sorry, but I am trying to help Keevo by being the proverbial canary in the coalmine. I am warning him straight up that the combination he wants to play (even with PHB II rules with Monks) is woefully underpowered and will not be able to carry his weight in the party. I don't care how wonderful the RP idea is, some combinations rules-as-written just don't work and Drow Monk happens to be one of them. I am trying to save Keevo, his DM, and his group a lot of grief and angst ahead of time by pointing out the problems that will quickly become painfully (even fatally) evident in play. The other problem with your suggestion is that it requires a fully cooperative DM willing to completely rewrite a major monster race (drow) in order to help the player. That's sometimes appropriate, but it's never something that I (as a player) should count on and many DM's are (understandably) reluctant to do this. Keevo, My best suggestion if you really, really have your heart set on a Drow Monk is to ask yourself what part of the concept you like. [Psiwarriors can be very Monk-Like and while also hurt by LA, aren't hurt quite as badly....just as one suggestion.] Mechanically, the closest thing I can suggest without being a fatal liability to your group would be a half-Drow Monk that starts with the Drow-Eyes feat. -Polaris
Keevo_Darkwood 09-07-06, 11:02 PM	Endarrin, Sorry, but I am trying to help Keevo by being the proverbial canary in the coalmine. I am warning him straight up that the combination he wants to play (even with PHB II rules with Monks) is woefully underpowered and will not be able to carry his weight in the party. I don't care how wonderful the RP idea is, some combinations rules-as-written just don't work and Drow Monk happens to be one of them. I am trying to save Keevo, his DM, and his group a lot of grief and angst ahead of time by pointing out the problems that will quickly become painfully (even fatally) evident in play. The other problem with your suggestion is that it requires a fully cooperative DM willing to completely rewrite a major monster race (drow) in order to help the player. That's sometimes appropriate, but it's never something that I (as a player) should count on and many DM's are (understandably) reluctant to do this. Keevo, My best suggestion if you really, really have your heart set on a Drow Monk is to ask yourself what part of the concept you like. [Psiwarriors can be very Monk-Like and while also hurt by LA, aren't hurt quite as badly....just as one suggestion.] Mechanically, the closest thing I can suggest without being a fatal liability to your group would be a half-Drow Monk that starts with the Drow-Eyes feat. -Polaris I'm not at all offended or upset by your criticism, Polaris; to the contrary, it's been a good thing for the thread so far. Just two quick questions, though: what's this Drow-Eyes feat do, and in what book(s) is/are it listed?
Endarrion 09-07-06, 11:09 PM	Polaris, I see your point, have digested it, and fully understand it. And I couldn't disagree more. What happened to the DM tailoring the encounters to the party? Sure, there's always going to be those "generic" encounters and the BBEG is the BBEG regardless of party class/race selections (usually) but in between, the encounters should be tailored. If the party is made up of 2 fighters, a ranger, and a rogue and the DM constantly throws monsters at them that have lots of DR/magic or are immune to most physical attacks, that wouldn't be fair now would it? I personally think that the monk is the most under-used class there is. It has such potential for greatness... But I think we need to know something else from the OP: How are you doing character generation? Is it 4d6 drop lowest or 22 point buy or what? If the odds are stacked against you having several scores (3 at least) at 14 or higher, then you may want to rethink your race selection. The monk, no matter the race, needs high scores, but ESPECIALLY needs high scores when you're throwing in an LA and such. Talk to your DM and make sure he knows what you're playing and suggest dropping the LA or switching out some abilities/bonuses. As for "reworking a major monster race," I have never used drow in any campaigns I've run or played in. Once a player played a drow cleric and I dropped the SR and light blindness to help balance him. The point is, not everyone uses drow as a major plot hook, so reworking the race for his character might not have as a huge an impact as one might think. And any DM worthy of the title should at least be willing to sit down and talk over the possibility of reworking the race at least a little. Even if he decides not to in the end, he should at least hear the player's ideas.
Polaris 09-07-06, 11:16 PM	I'm not at all offended or upset by your criticism, Polaris; to the contrary, it's been a good thing for the thread so far. Just two quick questions, though: what's this Drow-Eyes feat do, and in what book(s) is/are it listed? Thanks. IIRC Drow Eyes is Faerun Specific and is a Half-Drow only regional feat found in Races of Faerun. It doubles your Darkvision from 60' to 120' and must be taken at first level. Endarrin, Here's the deal. Unless the thread/topic specificies differently we all assume rules-as-written. Since Keevo didn't specify differently, we have to assume that the DM is going to use Drow "by the book" and will use the CRs listed for encounters to hand out XP and to determine what is and is not appropriate for a party. The problem is that the Drow Monk can't pull his weight to overcome the CR encounters for his ECL. Simple as that. -Polaris
Chumleigh 09-07-06, 11:32 PM	I've been pondering the part of the monk's text in the PHB that states "the evil subterranean elves known as drow have a small but successful monk tradition". It's gotten my creative juices flowing a bit, wanting to roll up a drow monk. :) The thing is: I'm wondering what sort of fighting styles would fit the small but successful drow monk tradition. Whether it be core feat combos or "splat book" advantages, I'm not too concerned. I'd like to power-game this one a bit, but I do not want this guy earning any dues in the Lollipop Guild, if you get my meaning. ;) Any constructive assistance would be much appreciated; even if your ideas don't fit, they may lead to something that does. BTW, this monk doesn't worship Eilistraee or Lolth, if that matters at all. My advice, late though it is, is to not play a drow monk. This article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060210a), although written from a game designer's perspective and mainly applicable from the DM's side of things, expounds on some of the "nuts and bolts mechanics" reasons not to play a drow, in addition to which you'll have to consider the +2 Level Adjustment, which is a major pain. However, if it's not the drow race that matters to you, only the general feel of the dark elves--and, frankly, I must question your judgmen, as I detest drow, much as I detest all elves, although that is neither here nor there--I heartily reccommend the half-drow, from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Mechanically, they are half-elves, but with darkvision rather than low-light vision and a lot more emotional baggage. As a half-drow, you'd suffer no Level Adjustment, no Constitution penalty, no confusion as to which ability score modifiers to use, and no light-blindedness. What's more, you could still take advantage of the drow society descriptions etc., as well as having a reason for being a surface-dwelling adventurer. I hope I've been helpful. Cheers, --Chumleigh
syrinth 09-07-06, 11:38 PM	It all depends on how he builds it, what he goes for and how carefully he plans. Of course, he's going to be weaker but y'know what? It's a bleeding drow, they're pretty much always a sub-optimal choice. You are most often a drow for coolness factor not for "OMG LEET STATZORS". Also, as far as I know, the Unearthed Arcana, while a variant rulebook, is still a book produced by Wizards of the Coast and therefore counts towards Rules as Written, albiet a variant rule that he would have to discuss with his DM. As for the build itself, I've actually been working on a Drow Monk myself although I must admit that I've come into a teensy problem with the multiclassing. (Stupid monk rules not letting you come back) and while I could complete my character rather satisfactorily I find that I want a full monk progression(minus the 5 PrC levels and 2 Drow levels) for the quasi- mystical abilities he gets from it. I have a general list of the feats I want but have stopped due to the fact that I can't quite figure out how I want to spend those last few levels >.<. Anyways, he's a grappler, yes of course a non LA race could do it better but y'know what? I don't care:P So far it's Monk 7/Reaping Mauler 5 and from what I can see, mixed in with a few other feats, choice skills and items, he doesn't look that bad at all. Although admittedly he's not QUITE done yet >.< Stupid monk multiclassing rules. BTW: Nothing against powergamers or min/maxers since I consider myself to be one (This build is not exactly a highlight of my achievements obviously)
AZNsupermarket 09-07-06, 11:44 PM	may I suggest that you take the drow without a level adjustment from races of faerun? same as regular elf with the follow changes: "Lesser" Drow: +2 Dex -2 Con medium, 30 ft. humanoid (elf) Darkvision: 60 ft Proficent with hand crossbow rapier and shortsword +2 on will saves vs spell-like affects imunity to magic sleep and +2 saving throw against enchantment spells and effects +2 listen, search, spot automatically search for secret doors Spell-Like ability: (Cha 10 or better dancing lights, daze, touch of fatigue 1/day) caster level = class level, Light Blindness Favored Class: wizard (male) and cleric (female) common and elven player’s guide to faerun pg.191
Polaris 09-07-06, 11:50 PM	Also, as far as I know, the Unearthed Arcana, while a variant rulebook, is still a book produced by Wizards of the Coast and therefore counts towards Rules as Written, albiet a variant rule that he would have to discuss with his DM. Actually if you read the Introduction on page 4 of UA, it says otherwise. While the book is obviously produced by WOTC, they go at great length to say that the book is essentially a book of varient rules that many of their designers used, and give the DM a huge disclaimer that amounts to caveat emptor. Thus any rule from UA does not have the same imperature (or testing for that matter) as even a normal splatbook. -Polaris
syrinth 09-07-06, 11:53 PM	I'm pretty sure that I stated that, yes they are variant rules and yes you'd have to take it up with your DM. I was merely pointing out that it is an available variant rule. "Nope. You mean Unearthed Arcana and that's (by the book's own admission) not balanced and experimental and not something you should count on." I never claimed that all the variant rules inside the book were balanced, nor did I claim that the DM has to include them. It is merely another option that he should look into since he wants to go down this path. BTW: By RAW I meant that it counts as in it's not just some random houserule, a housrule admittedly but not some random one. I probably phrased the original sentence wrongly but oh well.
Polaris 09-07-06, 11:59 PM	Syrinth, OK, however, I somehow strongly doubt that Keevo's DM will go along with the UA 'LA buyoff' rules. I say that not because I know anything about Keevo's DM, but rather I have yet to see a DM (including me when I run a game) that allows that rule for Drow or other humanoid type races. Why? Because while Drow stink as an LA+2 race, they are somewhat unusual in that they get abilities that actually get better as they go up in level (specifically mental attribute bonuses if a caster and SR). In short, for Drow at least the LA buyoff rules make Drow unbalanced at all levels (too weak initially and too good later on). Admittedly for a Monk, the Drow doesn't get anything worth an LA (not even SR), but not all Drow are Monks...... -Polaris
syrinth 09-08-06, 12:02 AM	Meh, as I said in my rather long-winded post, most people will play a drow just to play a drow and not for the stats.(I'm assuming since almost everyone complains about the +2 LA) I have another drow character, a wizard. My powergamer side cries when I look at him because he is not as powerful as he would be if he were, say, human. However, I keep him a drow anyways because that's the way I made him and that's the way I like him :D As for the variant rule, yup it's all the DM's choice. As far as I can see I'd allow it but meh.(Although maybe allow them to only get rid of it by one and not two, maybe a half-cap thing) Different strokes for different folks and all that.
Tytalus 09-08-06, 02:45 AM	It's been established that drow monk is a weak combination. Let's see how to overcome those disadvantages: If you play at low/mid levels, consider Vow of Poverty , which does give monks a bit of a boost. For higher levels it's not recommended. Use the LA buyoff rules in UA. It's still going to be painful, but it helps a bit, too. Consider the Carmendine Monk [CoV] feat to use INT instead of WIS for you monk abilites - makes better use of your racial INT bonus and allows you to make WIS a dump stat. Check out this guide (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=48573) for plenty of tips for building a strong monk character. You mean Unearthed Arcana and that's (by the book's own admission) [b]not balanced and experimental and not something you should count on. I wasn't aware that UA claims to be unbalanced (and quite frankly it seems rather absurd). Could you back up your statement with a citation please?
Polaris 09-08-06, 02:57 AM	Tytalus, Read the intro on page 4 of UA. The very first word in the book is a bolded warning. Unlike other supplements, it does not identify the book as a rules accessory or supplement but rather as a collection of varient rules that should be experimented with on a case by case basis. It also warns the reader that many of these are developer house rules. The entire section is much too long to quote under fair-use guidelines but well worth reading. Even on Char-Op, UA does not have the same standing as other WOTC material. -Polaris
Tytalus 09-08-06, 04:59 AM	Tytalus, Read the intro on page 4 of UA. The very first word in the book is a bolded warning. Unlike other supplements, it does not identify the book as a rules accessory or supplement but rather as a collection of varient rules that should be experimented with on a case by case basis. It also warns the reader that many of these are developer house rules. The entire section is much too long to quote under fair-use guidelines but well worth reading. Even on Char-Op, UA does not have the same standing as other WOTC material. -Polaris I did read that page, but I can't see how you turn that into and admission of being "not balanced". Sure, the rules are all optional, but that's something entirely different.
babysamurai 09-08-06, 05:11 AM	When I think of Drow monks, I get…very comfortable. P.S. Oh, and UA is not unbalanced, only campaigns are.
starfire311 09-08-06, 09:20 AM	When I think of Drow monks, I get…very comfortable. P.S. Oh, and UA is not unbalanced, only campaigns are. True dat... in a vacuum nothing is "unbalanced" only when taken in context can you truly evaluate the balance, and even then this may not hold true when the "contect" is changed
babysamurai 09-08-06, 09:35 AM	True dat... in a vacuum nothing is "unbalanced" only when taken in context can you truly evaluate the balance, and even then this may not hold true when the "contect" is changed Ohm...