Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wild Cat 04-24-07, 01:46 PM	Greeting all, I'm looking for advice and guidance. When ever I start a new character, during the creation progress I post here about it, to get some good contstructive building feedback. I hope to find it once again here, like I've found here in the past. I'm planning on play a fighter, this would also be the first time I play a fighter in the Pen & Paper settings. The only experiance I have with fighter/warriors is from computer games. World of Warcraft and Everquest are a few that come to mind, but I've played many other games with had the fantasy setting warrior type in it. In the computer games, the warrior is often (if not always) seen as Tank (or meat shield) that stands between the angry crowd of monsters and the rest of the party. Soaking up most of the blows. Not much of a damage dealer, but good enough to keep them foes attacking him. My main goal is to build the Tank type of warrior I'm well known with from computer games. Be the human shield, standing between foes and friends soaking up as much damage as possable. I'm not aiming on building a kick ass damage dealer... Wish to stick to defense and soaking up damage as much as possable. Now like I said, I was planning on building a fighter, would like to stick to the fighter form the phb 3.5, but I'm open to other options. I hope to steer clear from fancy prestige classes or excotic classes as much as possable... Want to keep it simple, but if that exotic class/prestige class is the best advice I'm all ears ;-) Rule set, D&D 3rd edition (3.5) Campaign setting, The Forgotten Realms Point-Buy system. 28 points (Might go 32, DM isn't sure yet) Starting level 4 (I though about playing a dwarf or a human. The dwarf because of darkvision manly and to be able to deal with stone traps/pitfalls. (My DM, like sending us in to dungeon/dark badly light places alot) Or a human for the extra feat at starting level and the extra skill point(s) at starting leve and there after.) I hope some people can come up with some good sketches and possably what playing style I should take on during combat. Thx, Wild Cat
Pegasos989 04-24-07, 01:50 PM	Gotta ask a few things... First of all, did you mean that you plan to use fighter class from PHB but can take feats etc. from elsewhere or that you would prefer only to use the PHB? Also, what is your DM's DMing style. Do monsters automatically attack the meatshield or do you need to find a way to keep them attacking you anad unable to attack the others? EDIT: And do you think that spiked chain would not fit the character style? EDIT2: If other sources than just PHB are avaiable, what books can you use? EDIT3: And in case you happen to somehow know it already, what is the rest of the party consisting of?
T3hB4k4 04-24-07, 02:19 PM	If you're going for Tanking there's two routes to do this I can suggest without knowing which books you have access to. OK first off you have the mobility based fighter. This is the fighter with high dex who uses light armor which does not restrict your movement like wearing heavier armor would. The human would work better for this. Possible feat suggestions off the top of my head: Combat Expertise (requires Int 13+ but it's good for hiking your AC if your normal one isn't enough for some reason), and I'm sure there are more but I don't have my books on me at the moment and I'm not sure how many non core books you're allowed to use. Second route is the true tankish type character, slow but extremely heavily armored. Dwarf would work best for this and you could eventually head into the Dwarven Defender Prestige class (Dungeon Master's Guide). Combat Expertise would also work well for this build and there is another feat which a heavy armor Paladin in my group employing the same strategy uses, Heavy Armor Optimization in Races of Stone. Your one disadvantage with this build is your extreme lack of movement, as you'll move about 2/3's the tactical speed of everyone else in the party regardless of what you do. Weapon Ideas (depending on how you want to play this guy tactically): Reach weapons will allow you to hold a hallway and not let things past you without potentially deadly attacks of opportunity, however most if not all of these would require giving up a shield, other than that there's the "sword and board" approach, tower shield + any one-handed weapon of your choice. This gives more AC and I believe tower shields give a penalty to attack rolls.
Wild Cat 04-24-07, 02:59 PM	First of all, did you mean that you plan to use fighter class from PHB but can take feats etc. from elsewhere or that you would prefer only to use the PHB? Want to use only the class, if possable from the PHB. (My DM doesn't have alot of books) Got alot of books, PHB 3.5 (& 3.0), PHB II, DMG, DMG II, Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, Arms & Equipment Guide, Sword & Fist, Song & Silence, Heroes of Battle, Heroes of Horror, Forgotten Realms Campaign setting, Players guide to faerun, Sining South, Just to name a few, ;-) Also, what is your DM's DMing style. Do monsters automatically attack the meatshield or do you need to find a way to keep them attacking you anad unable to attack the others? No monster do not auto attack the meat shield. It depends all on what is attacking us, what was the walking order, from where is the attacker or attackers are comming... Battles are well balanced. Much like in computer games, if some one does alot of damage to a foe, that foe often wants to hurt the attacker back, ignoring the once who do less damage. When dealing with smart foes, we can expect any thing, going for the healer first and that sort of things. EDIT: And do you think that spiked chain would not fit the character style? EDIT2: If other sources than just PHB are avaiable, what books can you use? EDIT3: And in case you happen to somehow know it already, what is the rest of the party consisting of? Edit: Spiked chain? Dunno, will have to look in to it, what kind of advantages a spiked chain could give me over the usual shield & weapon concept that i'm used to. Edit2: See list above... Edit3: A Warrior (me), A Cleric for sure, Possably a Bard, the player isn't sure yet. He's considering a full caster, hybrid or a rogue class and a 4th player, don't know any thing about this player. Weapon Ideas (depending on how you want to play this guy tactically): Reach weapons will allow you to hold a hallway and not let things past you without potentially deadly attacks of opportunity, however most if not all of these would require giving up a shield, other than that there's the "sword and board" approach, tower shield + any one-handed weapon of your choice. This gives more AC and I believe tower shields give a penalty to attack rolls. Sword & board playing style. I was considering a tower shield, but a tower shield doesn't allow shield bashing and gives a attack roll penalty :( I'm considering the heavy armored warrior route and feats to boost its hit points even more. Thx for the feedback so far...
Pegasos989 04-24-07, 03:11 PM	Well, to tell the truth, sword and board is suboptimal to two-handed weapon. With S&B enemy hits you less often, with TH you kill him faster and thus get hit just as little but also gain lots of other advantages. The main benefit of spiked chain is that though it is reach weapon, unlike most reach weapons it can also be used to adjacent squares. If you want to make sure enemies won't get to attack weaker members, take improved trip and spiked chain. Every time enemy comes within 20 feet of you, you can trip him, beat him and when he tries to get up towards the other members, he provokes AoO and you can trip him again. Take combat reflexes too for maxium use. Aside from a few feats to tripping, there is (either besides or in addition) the charger build. Power attack, improved bull rush, improved sunder, leap attack (complete adventurer, you power attack to better ratio when charging) and tactical feats shock trooper (on charge let's you take the power attack penalty to AC instead) and combat brute (let's you have better power attack ratio on the next round after charge). As you get higher levels, you should have enough feats to fill both chains...
Drag0nUL 04-24-07, 03:19 PM	You listed that you have PHB 2. I think you should have a look at the knight class. They make much better tanks that fighters IMHO(once engaged in melee, they have ways of keeping the enemy there,unlike a fighter). However, if you are keen on playing a fighter, I would recommend gong the dwarven defender route.
Pegasos989 04-24-07, 03:31 PM	As you mentioned, fighters can't keep enemy in their reach. If he is low damage output (shield and sword), is dwarf (slow moving), no reach weapon and goes to dwarven defender (class thet requires staying still), nothing stops enemy from just walking around him... EDIT: But yeah, agreed that knight is pretty good class for sword and board as that is it's point...
Wild Cat 04-24-07, 04:08 PM	The knight would make a good tank, but I don't like its way of living. The knights code, for starting...(not my fighting style,... its war any thing goes, that includes dirty fighting) When I read the description, I get the feeling of seeing a paladin with outs its divine art, that what has bin replaced by more melee defense abilaties. And well... I don't like being a lawful good kind of character... The dwarven defender is a great prestige class, but like already said, its main focus is fighting/defending from a single spot. The main reason I want to stick to the core fighter class is, due to all the bonus fighter feats it gets. I can mold the fighter and fine tune it alot. Go offensive or defensive, go broad in feats or specialize... Plenty of options. I got 5 feats to pick form. 1st level & 3rd level feat. Fighter Bonus feat level 1, 2 & 4. Improved thoughness, Fast healing and Die Hard are feats I'm considering to take. Along with weapon focus & specialization if I want to improve my offensive powers, or more feats to focus on defense like combat expertise and dodge Starting out with a very high con score would ensure me with a big amount of hitpoints. Packed with heavy armor (banded or some thing) would turn me in a foe hard to bring down. But I need to find a balance between defense and offense, to not turn myself in to a solid granite dwarven wall that holds a feather as a weapon to tickle his foe with to death.
Mister_J 04-24-07, 04:23 PM	The key to playing a MMOG style tank in D&D is to get some ability to get the enemy to focus on you and then keep him there. As others have mentioned the Knight from PHBII is great for this as he has a taunt-like ability that makes enemies attack him and other abilities that can make it hard for them to leave. Plus they have higher HP. You also might want to look into the Stand Still feat. It is from the Psionics book so you might not have access to it, but it makes it harder for people to run by you or leave areas you threaten, and combined with a reach weapon such as spike chain can make you enemy fly paper. I also recomend Dwarf for your race, as the bonus Can gets more hp which is great for a meat shield. If you are going for a super high AC build you might want to go Elf for the plus Dex, but the limited Dex bonus of Heavy armor and the Elf Con penalty hurt. Halfling can also be good for pure defense figherts, as the +dex and +ac from size make you more durable, and pure defense builds can live with the reduced str.
Amon_WinterfallIV 04-24-07, 04:24 PM	Well, the main problem with playing a High AC fighter type is that your opponents will outspeed you and you aren't likely to be the main damage dealer if you can't reach your opponents. This isn't to say that High AC is a bad thing, but unless you are planning on holding your ground and defending your teammates, you've got to either get some control or switch to a more offensive pose. Knight Class has been suggested; I'd also consider the Goad feat as a possible means of control. There is also a feat where you get a bonus on attacks if someone does not attack you. In the end though, fighters tend to be hard to kill but not really worth the trouble, unless they are last ones standing.
Mister_J 04-24-07, 04:28 PM	I also have to ask, is your campaign going to use battle maps? If you are, then it is a little easier to play a defense fighter as you can set up a position that makes it harder for enemies to go around you on a map with 5ft squares easier than you can without. Even then though, while you should be able to set up pretty good for indoors combat it is very hard to keep people from just running around you outside.
Tempest Stormwind 04-24-07, 04:31 PM	For tanking, the fighter is inferior to the knight, who is parsecs behind the crusader (Tome of Battle). Single best tank class ever published, hands-down. It's pretty much the only one I know of that, single-classed, can honestly make a competitive defending character -- as in, if I could have a member of any class between me and certain death, it would be a crusader. (This analysis might make it look overpowered, but I assure you it is not. For an example of how a low-level crusader plays, see this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=789367). He does exploit a cheesy RAW argument at one point, but by and large it's representative. I'd have used Iron Guard's Glare rather than Leading the Charge -- that's *the* low-level defensive tank stance, as it pretty much requires your enemies to focus on you.) The fighter is also considered one of the worst classes in general to play. On par with the soulknife, CW samurai, and healer. I would NOT recommend playing a fighter if you have any other tanking class available.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 04-24-07, 04:35 PM	I am going to second what Tempest said. Crusader is definitely what you are looking for.
Wild Cat 04-24-07, 04:39 PM	I also have to ask, is your campaign going to use battle maps? If you are, then it is a little easier to play a defense fighter as you can set up a position that makes it harder for enemies to go around you on a map with 5ft squares easier than you can without. Even then though, while you should be able to set up pretty good for indoors combat it is very hard to keep people from just running around you outside. Yes we are using battle maps... I will reconsider the knightclass and look it over. Not being able to taunt and keep foes occupied is problem. Are there any other way's besides taunt abilaties to keep foes from getting to party members?
Pegasos989 04-24-07, 04:46 PM	The fighter is also considered one of the worst classes in general to play. On par with the soulknife, CW samurai, and healer. I would NOT recommend playing a fighter if you have any other tanking class available. I find this odd coming from you. If I recall, you are a CharOp regular. While "Non-Tob melee types < Spellcasters" -rule applies to fighter too, don't dungeoncrasher, the ever increasing amount of good feats and such bring it to on par with other pre-tob full BAB classes?
Tempest Stormwind 04-24-07, 05:23 PM	Not being able to taunt and keep foes occupied is problem. Are there any other way's besides taunt abilaties to keep foes from getting to party members?Crusader. 1) Iron Guard's Glare is a 1st level stance that gives any enemy you threaten a -4 penalty on attacks made against anyone but you. 2) Defensive Rebuke is a 3rd level boost that affects any creature you hit during the round. Any of those creatures who attacks anyone other than you provokes an AoO from you. 3) Thicket of Blades is a 3rd level stance that means that any movement in your threatened area, even 5' steps, provokes AoOs. (It even blocks Spring Attack, and it *might* even stop tumblers!) 4) Shield Block is a level 2 counter that lets you add your shield bonus +4 to any adjacent ally's AC against a single incoming enemy attack. (If you don't use a shield, that's still +4.) Naturally, for crusaders, you'd want a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes. I've seen successful variants using two-weapon fighting as well (due to Furious Counterstrike and the high Dexterity needed for Combat Reflexes), but by and large, you want to threaten a large area and basically scream "none shall pass". There's others, but that's a sample of what a crusader should be able to do. He does this while absorbing damage like no other class (He takes a portion of his damage *next* round instead of immediately, and has methods of dealing with it without it becoming permanent). Furthermore, so long as he's under attack, he gets *better* (a boost to attack and damage rolls based on how much damage he's taken since the start of his last turn).I find this odd coming from you. If I recall, you are a CharOp regular. While "Non-Tob melee types < Spellcasters" -rule applies to fighter too, don't dungeoncrasher, the ever increasing amount of good feats and such bring it to on par with other pre-tob full BAB classes?Not really, no. The knight is a cruddy class, with fighter being far worse. With Dungeoncrasher, he might be as good as a low-Con Barbarian who doesn't rage, or a knight without any knight's challenges left, or a low-Charisma paladin.
Nall_The_Azure_Guardian 04-24-07, 10:09 PM	If you can go the races of stone route there is also a greater heavy armor op that takes the bonus's even further. (additional +1 to AC and -1 to ACP) Its basically dodge for the dexless If you'd like to see an example of a tank PM me an I'll send you my pali files I've already written them up in word since we play over the internet. I take meticulously good notes so I've even got the books everything came from and possible spell or arrangements on all my gear and spells You can look at my feat picks (a lot of which were geared toward a prestige class) Right now I'm lvl 3 but I've planned out the character from levels one to nine (I'm only slightly obsessive compulsive :cool: ) I am the tank in baka's aforementioned campaign fighting beside a barbarian and a monk with no HP, I'm the only one who doesn't die (I'd swear the barb dies in every fight) and you'd be surprised how effective taking total defense and standing there is if you can position yourself right. I don't know if its been menchioned yet but simply taking 5 ranks in tumble gives you +1 to AC when you fight defensively and +2 when you take a total defensive action Nall's not the best fighter in the world but because of the way I've stacked up my feats and gear I should be able to push AC 26 around level four and 30ish if throw a few of my buffs on myself. Its not an overbalanced build by any means, it actually revolves around using leadership and simply being a pali, but the defensive side of fighting has grown to interests me more and more as we play Be a dwarf if you want to meat shield, its con + dwarven defender that would be really bad ass if you combined it with spiked chains because you can stand and effect the area all around you
tahngarth40 04-24-07, 10:27 PM	Your best bet for recreating the MMO tank is the knight class w/goad feat (if you don't like the knights code, make a similar class w/out the code and ask your DM if you can do it, it won't be overpowered) Heavy armor optimizations, shield spec, shield ward, all not bad choices in feats. And knights get the ability make it harder to move through the squares they threaten, which is a useful "tanking" ability. ...or you could just play a crusader, they're amazing. From what I've seen, people who want to play tanks in D&D go for tanking through damage, just making a pure damage dealing character w/decent AC and good HP. However, intelligent enemies will still probably try to kill your wizards and clerics first, because quite frankly, they're better than you.
Drag0nUL 04-25-07, 03:27 AM	From what I've seen, people who want to play tanks in D&D go for tanking through damage, just making a pure damage dealing character w/decent AC and good HP. However, intelligent enemies will still probably try to kill your wizards and clerics first, because quite frankly, they're better than you. Then you should play a wizard or cleric tank.:) Seriously, The best core only tank IMHO is a monk 1/druid the rest. It has decent BAB, huge AC(with wisdom added to the AC in wild shape), an annoying animal companion, decent HP and you can't afford to ignore him(or else you'll have nice little monsters running all around the battlefield in only a few rounds). Battle clerics using divine power+righteous might also make a decent frontline. As for wizards, I have yet to see a build that can actually tank well; most gish builds tend to rely more on mobility and versatility because they usually lack the HP for a sustained melee fight with enemy heavy hitters(actually, the gish philosophy as I see it is 'blast away anything that outfights you and hack away anyithing that can outcast you')
tahngarth40 04-25-07, 06:37 AM	Don't know about wizard, but you can do alright as a battle sorcerer out of UA and using the extra HP variant out of Complete Mage and than went Abjurant Champion for a pretty decent melee fighting arcane caster tank.
runestar 04-25-07, 06:52 AM	Druid is not a bad choice. At lower lvs, your animal companion is not necessarily inferior to a fighter, and once you get wildshape...:D
Yokomohoyo 04-25-07, 07:03 AM	Remeber that you can get ahold of the weapon proficiancy: whip and use a dagger whip wich deals lethal damage and its a melee weapon with reach of 15'. This will allow you to use a shield at the same tim. Since you want a "tank" I would go with Dwarven characters due to the +2 to con and that they can move in full plate at their full speed. Also try getting a few dips onto barbarian (maybe the first level) for the nice d12 HD and rage.
Drag0nUL 04-25-07, 07:56 AM	Remeber that you can get ahold of the weapon proficiancy: whip and use a dagger whip wich deals lethal damage and its a melee weapon with reach of 15'. This will allow you to use a shield at the same tim. Unfortunately you don't threaten any squares with a whip therefore you can't make any attacks of opportunity, which makes it a not very useful tank weapon. As for using battle sorcerers I think it is a suboptimal choice; you could, indeed make a decent front-line, but you would lack both in versatility(compared to a wizard gish) and raw blasting power(compared to a sorcerer gish you have less spell slots).
Wild Cat 04-25-07, 10:16 AM	I'm reading up on how to use a Spiked Chain, but i'm a bit confused, mainly due to the picture in the PHB. Is the Spiked Chain, a weapon that can attack twice (two weapon fighting style) or just once?
runestar 04-25-07, 10:29 AM	Spiked chain is a 2-handed weapon. I think there is a OA variant which lets you TWF with a spiked chain at the expense of reach.:)
Pegasos989 04-25-07, 10:34 AM	I'm reading up on how to use a Spiked Chain, but i'm a bit confused, mainly due to the picture in the PHB. Is the Spiked Chain, a weapon that can attack twice (two weapon fighting style) or just once? It is a single exotic weapon that just looks like double weapon from the picture.
Manic Man 04-25-07, 01:13 PM	Been some time since i made a blocking fighter, so i may be missing some good feats Here's a basic list that will make you effective as a battle controller Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) Combat Reflexes XPH: Stand Still Later as you level up PHB2: Robilar's Gambit PHB2: Defensive Sweep Combat Expertise Dodge Complete Warrior: Karmic Strike For Defense if you need it Endurance Iron Will PHB2: Indomitable Soul Extra but would be nice PBH2: Weapon Supremancy Chain (6 feats) Power Attack Cleave Great Cleave Maybe Whirlwind Attack Chain (3 feats) but this is very low priority Some of these can be replaced with items granting similar effects Very important: Check with your DM on his interpretion of the interaction of the above feats. He may block the useful combos from them. Check the feat descriptions to understand
OravennasBrother 04-25-07, 01:52 PM	First leve l Core only, elite array Strength 15, Dexterity 12, Constitution 16, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 10, Charisma 8 Feats Power Attack, Cleave Race Dwarf (Which raised Constitution by 2 points) As much armor as you can afford A "heavy" shield Get Full plate ASAP. Around 2nd or 3rd level take Expertise for the extra AC. Cleave lets you take down two weak opponents in a single round - this is important at low levels and costs little. Get a Defending weapon and use it for Extra AC. Don't take a single overpriced item for AC through the roof, take several each with a modest boost to AC.
tahngarth40 04-25-07, 04:20 PM	If you use spiked chain you can take a dip in to exotic weapon master to be able to flurry with it
Yokomohoyo 04-26-07, 01:17 AM	Unfortunately you don't threaten any squares with a whip therefore you can't make any attacks of opportunity, which makes it a not very useful tank weapon. As for using battle sorcerers I think it is a suboptimal choice; you could, indeed make a decent front-line, but you would lack both in versatility(compared to a wizard gish) and raw blasting power(compared to a sorcerer gish you have less spell slots). True but you could still have a back up weapon such as a long sword wich you get proficiancy in from being a first level fighter. The whip would be a "range" attacking weapon. You could also think in halburge (spell check).
Bob Loblaw 04-26-07, 03:14 AM	If you want to stick with the fighter, you may want to consider taking the Martial Style feats in ToB. You can pick up a stance and a few maneuvers that may be of some help. Also, if you can get ahold of the latest issue of Dragon (355), there may be some class features for you. I personally can see Fortification and Warrior or Air for your character. You will have some mobility (Feather Fall and Freedom of Movement), extra electricity damage, energy resistance, and of course, fortification. You can take the stance Tempest suggested with a single feat. You can also take up to three maneuvers by taking another feat 3 times. So your feats may look something like this: Level 1 (Human): Weapon Focus Level 1: Combat Expertise Level 1: Goad Level 2: Warrior of Air Level 3: Martial Study (Devoted Spirit) Vangaurd Strike Level 4: Martial Stance - Iron Guard's Glare Make sure you've got a good Charisma so you can use Goad effectively. So you'll be able to force a penalty on attacks against your allies at all times. You will be able to grant your allies a +4 bonus to hit once per round. You have electricty resistance 5. As you go up in levels, you will gain more abilities. Level 6 (no fighter bonus feat): Feather Fall, +1d6 electricty damage with each hit Level 6: Weapon Specialization Level 8: Weapon Focus Level 10: Fortification: 25% Level 12 (no fighter bonus feat): Electricty resistance 10, +2d6 electricty damage, freedom of movement 1/day Level 12: Weapon Spec Level 14 (no bonus fighter feat): Fortification 50% Level 15: Greater Specialization Level 16: Weapon Mastery Level 18 (no bonus fighter feat): Fortification 100% Level 18: Weapon Supremacy Level 20 (no fighter bonus feat): Freedom of movement 3/d, +3d6 electricity damage, electricity resistance 20 This still needs some work, but your character can bring the enemy to you and then you can deal some damage to take them down. You will be avoiding critical hits and some electricity damage. Grappling you will be difficult and even if it works, you can still use your weapon while grappled. You'll have saved some money so you can improve your weapon and armor more.
Oakes 04-26-07, 03:47 AM	Let me begin by saying that I won't be handing out any hopelessly complicated, fully optimized builds, just giving some suggestions based on my opinion that I hope will help. Class: If your goal is to be a Protector, or Tank, I humbly suggest considering the Knight class from the PHBII. Its innate defensive (tank) abilities are unequalled as far as I can see, but it will suffer in the damage dealing department compared to most other Melee classes. No matter what you decide, the Knight Protector PrC (CW) is a favorite ally-defense focused class of mine. It has a 10-level progression that features a cadre of abilities including Supreme Cleave, Defensive Stance, and additional AoO. Its crowning ability is the Retributive Strike, not related to the ability of the same name certain Staves have. Feats: Goad (CAdv) is a potent ability that brings the aggro to you, rather than your allies, with many foes. It forces your target to succeed at a Will save or be unable to attack anyone but you in Melee, which is almost always a good thing. Armor Specialization (PHBII) says enough on its own. Damage reduction is sexy. Robilar's Gambit (PHBII) is great. Making yourself appear vulnerable makes monsters more likely to attack you, and the great damage potential those AoO provide is always appreciated. Combat Reflexes is always a great feat to have, but it's especially great in the hands of a defender, particularly a Knight armed with a reach weapon. The Cleave path speaks for itself. The Combat Reflexes tree feats in the PHBII are flavorful. They may get outshined at later levels, but are still worth considering, especially if retraining is an option. Equipment: The best armor you can afford is obvious. However, if you find the monsters slipping past you to get at your softer teammates too often, consider a Mithril Breastplate. Knights won't have this problem in heavier armor as time goes on. A Ring of Friend Shield, if you can afford it, is an excellent substitute for the Knight's Shield Ally ability. Consider investing in a reach weapon as, or in addition to, your primary weapon. The improved reach will make it that much more difficult for your foes to slip past you and get at your friends. Note: If you're a Fighter primary, you may be able to get obscene amounts of reach out of a Whip-Dagger (Arms and Equipment) combined with size enlarging effects and a larger weapon with the Balanced enchantment. You can still deal passable damage on the Weapon Supremacy path and with the Mighty quality. Don't overlook miscleaneous items such as Caltrops, Tanglefoot Bags, Nets, or other obstacles if you have time to prepare for an encounter instead. The more you control your opponents' movement, the better of a Tank you'll be. These are just suggestions. Build Optimizers will be able to direct you far better than I.
starfire311 04-26-07, 02:37 PM	I am gonan go with tempest on this one, Crusader is the best tank ever. I am currently going with a less battlefield control version of a tank, and more of a tank/healer but without a doubt it is the best tank I have ever seen played I am level 8 dwarven crusader 6/hellreaver 2 I went S&B, and am focusing on healing. Feats: Shield Spec Heavy armor optimization Stone Power Manuvers Readied Divine surge, Mountain Hammer, Foe hammer, Crusaders strike, Revitalizing strike Stances Bolstering voice, Martial Stance. Hellreaver also lets me heal a target within 30ft, 10 HP as a swift action upto 3 times per encounter. I have a ton of healing, HP, and a really High AC. Yes I have no way to make a target of myself, but if they ignore me they get a nice smite+divine surge+Holy fury waraxe upside their heads. I crited on a smite+divine surge last session with my waraxe 3D10+8D8+36 will get someones attention really quick.
Korvara_Verndari 04-26-07, 04:12 PM	To bad you don't have access to the Hammer and Helm book. It's a third party d20 OGL book that "requires the Dungeons and Drgons PHB to use". It's based on dwarves of course and there is a KILLER prestige class for those who want a high AC. I can't remember what it is called right now, but it's something like the iron defender. It allows you to wield 2 shield and get the AC bonus from both as well as shield bash with them. and at lvl 10 you get half your physical armor bonus (plus enhancement) to your touch AC. Combine this with the Races of Stone dwarven feats and a spiked chain with Improved Trip, Disarm and Sunder, and your have a mighty tank. There is also an enchantment for armor in the H&H called crystalleaf that will make a suit of armor meld with your skin and turn it's armor bonus into a natural armor bonus which then allows you to wear another suit of traditional armor. Kor *edit for link to H&H on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Hammer-Helm-System-Races-Renown/dp/0971438056/ref=sr_1_1/103-8446441-8315834?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177617961&sr=1-1)
Crash169 04-27-07, 01:28 AM	Barbarian1/Fighter4 Race: Human I'd like to start by first letting you know that it is better to first make a character concept. Once you have that, choose the appropriate classes and feats to reach that certain concept. A lot of people have been saying to be a Dwarf, I disagree. What you could do is; instead of being a Dwarf, take the Improved Toughness feat as your Human Bonus feat. (If your DM lets you take it without the actual "Toughness" Pre-req. In our campaign, we totally abolished that feat and renamed "Improved Toughness" "Toughness") That would give you an extra 10 ft of movement, you would be getting the same amount of HP a Dwarf gets, and your Charisma modifier wouldn't suffer. Or you could just use that extra human feat for something else if you like. It all depends on what you want to play A level in the Barbarian class you would get a D12 hit dice, fast movement, and Rage. The rage would help your total HP total, but it would also lower your defenses. You don't have to use the rage, you can save it for dire situations if you'd like. The four levels in fighter leaves you with 5 feats. One for being Human, one for being a class, and three fighter bonus feats. Unlike classes like the Crusader, Knight, and Paladin, You do not have any alignment restrictions, and can therefore be whatever you want to be. I would also like to propose the idea of making a character that controls the battlefield, instead of just being a tank. If you can control your enemies with Bullrushing and Tripping, it will be much harder for them to get to your other allies. Take a look at the feats "Shock Trooper" and "Combat Brute" from the Complete Warrior.
danielinthewolvesden 04-27-07, 03:12 AM	Fighter is just fine. But you have to get pretty deep into new feats from PhII to keep a fighter up to snuff after you get into the mid-levels. Which is why I suggest F5 or F6, then a PrC for 10 levels. Good PrCs for uncomplicated Tanks are: Pious Templar and Kensai. Both are not hard for a fighter to get into with some planning. Remember if you go for Templar to NOT take Weapon Spec @ F4. Both do very well as Humans, but if you like Dwarf, then fine. There is also the Annointed Knight from BoED- not an Exalted class. If you do Dwarf, then take the Racial level of Dwarf Fighter at level 1, gives you Wpn focus with several Dwarven weapons, and a D12 for HP. Get Boots of S&L if you are a dwarf. Do not go for a class from BoNS. True, at higher levels they outperform other warrior base classes. But they are ANYTHING but simple. Powerful, yes- but NOT simple. Feats: Wpn focus Endurance (for the next item) PHB2: Indomitable Soul (a must do) Improved Toughness PA and Cleave for a THW fighter, Sheild spec for a Sword and Board fighter (and then you want dwarf as he gets dwarven waraxe for free) So for a Dwarven S&B fighter, you would have: Level 1; FBonus= wpn focus (ths is what you get at level one for the racial sub level). Endurance 2. Shield spec or PrC pre-req feat (for PT you already have weapon focus, you just need the other one, Chosen soul?) 3. Indomitable Soul 4. Improved Toughness (or PrC req feat) Really Max out your Con. Con,Str, Dex, Int Wis Cha
Azerian 04-27-07, 07:11 PM	I would also pose the Goliath to you from the Races of Stone. +4 STR -2 DEX +2 CON. They also get Powerful Build ability which lets them use large weapons...like a full blade....without having to take the proficiency. With the large strength and the Weapon Focus etc, well I have a lvl 5 with a +11 unenhanced bonus to attack with a fullblade (magic weapons, spells and ability boots not calculated into it). Damage is 2d8+9 unenhanced, 2d8+19 with full Power Attack. Couple this with some of the goading and taunt feats that have been presented here and you have a fighter that can dish out some good damage, stay in the fight as long as a dwarf, and when (not if, when) the castor starts doin more dmg than you, you can use the feats + the damage dealt to keep the baddie hating you. Biggest downside is LA +1 This is by no means optimized, but I hope it helps :) Happy Hunting
Wild Cat 04-30-07, 02:12 PM	Thx all, for the feedback. I'm sticking with the pure fighter build for now. As I said before, where using the 32 point-buy-system. I'm only allowed to use equipment from the PHB, when we actually start playing and finsih the characters, last minute changes will apply like replacing weapons/armor/items with hopefully magical or masterwork ones. A sketch of what I got now on paper, Lvl 4 Dwarven Fighter Str 14, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 7 Feats: Die hard or Fast Healing (see below), Endurance, Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus (Waraxe, Dwarven) Weapon Specialization (Waraxe, Dwarven) Equipment: Banded mail (+6 armor), Heavy Steel Shield (+2) Waraxe, Dwarven I'm steering to wards the Prestige Class, The Dwarven Defender, what needs a Base Attack of +7, Dodge, Toughness and Endurance. I'm not quite sure yet, if I'm going to take it or not. Will have to find that out along the way. Die hard or Fast healing feat, All the campaigns I've had so far, didn't hold alot of magic weapons, armor or potions. This resulted alot of resting (restoring lost hit points), careful playing style (no rushing to keep HP loss to a minimum) and make use of every possible advantage in battle we could get/exploit. This all, to not force the cleric to give up his offensive/support spells for a healing spell. Die hard would aid me during battle, knowing I can push it a bit further, lengthening my staying power. Fast Healing would allow me to recover outside battle alot faster. What would be wise to select, or what to replace it with? Thx, Wild Cat
Tempest Stormwind 04-30-07, 03:01 PM	1) Fighter beyond level 4 is *not* worth it. I'd desperately suggest multiclassing -- and at the very least, use the dwarf fighter substitution level (Races of Stone) for more HP at level 1 and a broader scope of Weapon Focus. 2) Dwarven defenders sound good on paper, but their inability to move is a HUGE liability for a tank. It allows enemies to ignore him by staying out of his reach or tumbling. If enemies are ignoring the tank, the tank is not doing his job. The joke on this is "Oh, no! The dwarven defender is after us! Quick, everyone! Walk briskly!". The dwarven defender is the Maginot Line of D&D. 3) Your DM is not providing a lot of magic weapons, armor, or potions, and you're playing probably the single most gear-dependent class of all time? At level 4, you should at least have +1 armor and a +1 weapon, if not more (the only reason you should only have that *least* amount is if you haven't had downtime since hitting level 4). Check the DMG for NPC wealth (which is less than PCs at most levels) and you'll have a good idea of how badly your DM is shafting you relating to gear. 4) Of those two feats, neither will actually improve your survivability. Diehard only lets you continue to act while staggered or dying. It won't keep you alive if you don't have potions, it'll just keep you fighting (and, as a tank, you should be soaking up hits, so you'll probably die faster)... and to be honest, as a tank, you do not want to be hitting 0 hit points all that often (you've got lots of them, and if you do hit the lower HP ranges, you're not going to be much of a tank, are you?). Faster Healing is actually pretty damn slow, and isn't much help if there's a cleric in the party and if you're doing your job (If the tank does his job, hit point loss on everyone else in the party is minimized, meaning that the only one the cleric has to heal is the tank, meaning Faster Healing is worthless since you're getting all the magic heals anyway!). I repeat: The best tank out there is a crusader. You can take hits like no one else, continue to move while doing it (except in a few Stone Dragon stances, which you can simply re-initiate when you arrive at your new location), dish out enough damage and threaten enough foes that they CANNOT ignore you, and heal yourself somewhat for improved staying power. Plus, maneuvers mean that you don't necessarily need as much gear as a fighter (although it's greatly appreciated). Finally, it opens up access to the dwarf-only Deepstone Sentinel PrC, which is similar to the Dwarven Defender in concept except actually useful (if the DD was the Maginot Line, the Crusader is closer to 300), and you won't suck as a single-classed character up to that point. The only reason to not do crusader in this circumstance is if the DM disallows the ToB -- and I've yet to find any rational reason to disallow it. Let's take a look at why you're playing a fighter.The main reason I want to stick to the core fighter class is, due to all the bonus fighter feats it gets. I can mold the fighter and fine tune it alot. Go offensive or defensive, go broad in feats or specialize... Plenty of options. I got 5 feats to pick form. 1st level & 3rd level feat. Fighter Bonus feat level 1, 2 & 4. Improved thoughness, Fast healing and Die Hard are feats I'm considering to take. Along with weapon focus & specialization if I want to improve my offensive powers, or more feats to focus on defense like combat expertise and dodge Starting out with a very high con score would ensure me with a big amount of hitpoints. Packed with heavy armor (banded or some thing) would turn me in a foe hard to bring down. But I need to find a balance between defense and offense, to not turn myself in to a solid granite dwarven wall that holds a feather as a weapon to tickle his foe with to death.It seems that you think feats are your only options. Maneuvers provide you with *more* options, since everyone gets feats and feats aren't great class features since they're all about as strong as each other. You want survivability, if you do that with feats you need to sacrifice offense to pack in all the defense feats. Consider the crusader again, who can use Stone Dragon strikes to grant himself DR, the Stone Power feat to trade attack power for temp. HP (which synergizes EXTREMELY well with their ability to delay damage intake), several Devoted Spirit maneuvers to keep himself alive and keep his enemies attacking him, and still have enough room to take most of the *worthwhile* feats.Not being able to taunt and keep foes occupied is problem. Are there any other way's besides taunt abilaties to keep foes from getting to party members?I dealt with this on page 1 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12204288&postcount=16), and you didn't respond. In short, a fighter can't do anything like this, ESPECIALLY if he is a dwarven defender and thus rooted on the spot. I've yet to see any convincing reason to NOT go Crusader. Except that you don't seem to realize the value of reach (i.e. Spiked Chain or polearm), which suggests that you might need a simpler class to start things out with (although I'm sure you're smarter than that). You asked for advice. I'm giving some, and I hope you'll consider it.
Guan 04-30-07, 04:05 PM	[QUOTE=Pegasos989;12202659]Every time enemy comes within 20 feet of you, you can trip him, beat him and when he tries to get up towards the other members, he provokes AoO and you can trip him again. Take combat reflexes too for maxium use. QUOTE] Good advise with the spiked chain, tripping is a nice way of protecting your allies. However, the rules over the years have said that if you are using an AoO from someone that is standing, you cannot then trip them again. The logic being they are already prone when your AoO comes, thus tripping would net you absolutely nothing. But feel free to beat them into submission!
danielinthewolvesden 04-30-07, 04:20 PM	Thx all, for the feedback. A sketch of what I got now on paper, Lvl 4 Dwarven Fighter Str 14, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 7 Feats: Die hard or Fast Healing (see below), Endurance, Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus (Waraxe, Dwarven) Weapon Specialization (Waraxe, Dwarven) Equipment: Banded mail (+6 armor), Heavy Steel Shield (+2) Waraxe, Dwarven I'm steering to wards the Prestige Class, The Dwarven Defender, what needs a Base Attack of +7, Dodge, Toughness and Endurance. I'm not quite sure yet, if I'm going to take it or not. Will have to find that out along the way. Die hard or Fast healing feat, Thx, Wild Cat Never buy any medium armour (assuming you have more than 1st level cash, where sometimes scale is OK) other than breastplate. Nor heavyarmour other than Full Plate. So get either BP or FP, not banded. You should be able to afford Full Plate. If you can have silver or cold iron have one waraxe in each. You should use dwarf fighter substitution level (Races of Stone) for 1st level, whcih changes "weapon focus waraxe" to "weapon focus- several axes and such" and gives you a D12 not a d10 as your first HD, so that is two extra HP. Fast Healing is cruddy. Diehard is better but only if somehow you can heal yourself during the 0 through-9 period. You can not so do, so no. Get Indomitable Soul PHB2 instead. Not only does IS add +5 to your Will save (with a Con of 20) it makes those pesky "Oh no, I rolled a natural one on my Fort save and just died!" episodes go away. A 1 is just a very low roll with Indomitable Soul, and your Fort save should be amazing, so hogh that sometimes roilling a 1 will make it anyway! Ask your DM if Improved Toughness will fill in for Toughness for the Pre-req for DD. If not then get Toughness now. If playing in the Realms get the dwarven regional Toughness which adds 5 pts, not 3. So it is Endurance, Improved Toughness (or Toughness or Dwarven regional tougness if DM will not allow Imp Tough to replece Toughness for DD), Weapon Focus (several Dwarven) Weapon Specialization (Waraxe, Dwarven), Indomitable Soul. Do not "buy" odd numbers. Go for Str 16, dex 13 (for dodge), Con 20, int 12, wis 8, cha 6. Gives you a 16 rather than a 14 str and since you will have Indomitable Soul, you do not need Wis. Sometimes on these boards you run into BoNS/ToB fanatics, that insist loudly and constantly that a BoNS character can fill any warrior role better. It is true at higher levels the BoNS/ToB characters are better than other BASE warrior classes, but they are also FAR more complicated and you have said you do not want complicated. DD is fine. Yes, the enemy could run around a DD but that assumes the DD buddies are not doings like sneak attacking, slinging spells and what-not. DD work very very well, once it gets to the point where your Tank job is to prevent the monsters from getting to the arcanist and that is around level 5-7 and oddly that is when you will become one. So GO FOR IT! HAVE FUN WITH IT!
Wild Cat 04-30-07, 04:23 PM	1) Fighter beyond level 4 is *not* worth it. I'd desperately suggest multiclassing -- and at the very least, use the dwarf fighter substitution level (Races of Stone) for more HP at level 1 and a broader scope of Weapon Focus. Gonna take a look at this subsitution level, in Race of Stone. Not familiar with it.
Tempest Stormwind 04-30-07, 05:17 PM	Gonna take a look at this subsitution level, in Race of Stone. Not familiar with it. That was a bare-minimum suggestion, by the way. The rest of my post was far more critical. The sub level gives d12 HP instead of d10, a slightly altered skill list, and no bonus feat, in exchange for gaining Axe Focus -- effective Weapon Focus in all axe-type weapons. Do be advised, you can have all the hit points in the world, but if the foes are ignoring you (because, say, you're rooted in place as a friggin' Dwarven Defender with no way to attract enemies to you), it means nothing.
Enigmous 04-30-07, 09:53 PM	Get the feat "Goad' Forces the monster to target you in melee.
Tempest Stormwind 04-30-07, 10:16 PM	Get the feat "Goad' Forces the monster to target you in melee. Poorly. The knight does this better, and the crusader can actually back up that threat (one area he can't, sadly, is doing this at a distance (his persuasion methods require him to threaten the target), but he can just take the feat and do it anyway).
Dragoloth 05-01-07, 12:50 AM	Your dwarven fighter looks fine. Just remember with dwarven defender they are best when rooted to one spot. If you want to control whether they reach the group or not a mobile or reach weapon build may better suit your needs. Tempest why are you trying to cram crusader down wild cats throat. Wild cat didn't include ToB in the list of books and WANTS to play a fighter.
Tempest Stormwind 05-01-07, 01:18 AM	Tempest why are you trying to cram crusader down wild cats throat. Wild cat didn't include ToB in the list of books and WANTS to play a fighter.You want to participate in a kendo bout (for the first time) without using your legs? What he's trying is similar to that. I'm mentioning crusader because he wanted a *tank*. His first post mentioned a tank, and his later ones didn't say he didn't have access to the book (he listed a bunch of books and then said "Just to name a few, ;-)"). He mentioned he's new to the game; I suspect this is why he's drawn to the fighter. People mistakenly think the fighter's a good beginner class. It isn't. It's extremely easy to screw up when building one and end up in a terrible place where you can't even contribute as well as... well, as a fighter. This is completely independent of the fighter's power level, by the way: even if you think the fighter is on a fine power level, you can't deny it's easy to box yourself into a corner simply because feat choices are always fixed for life. He plans on making this worse by taking the Dwarven Defender, which is supposed to be a tank but in reality isn't even a speed bump since it can't actually pose a threat to its opponents and its chief ability requires it to sacrifice mobility, which basically means "Okay, monsters, you can ignore me now and move on to the squishier members of the party". He's said he wants a tank, and what he's getting is a sandbag. Meanwhile, the crusader I keep mentioning is far more forgiving (since every level from 4th onward either gives you a new maneuver or trades in an old one), tanks better, scales better with level, and provides more options in combat (so he isn't stuck with "I charge" or "I full attack again"). It's also a blast to play *and* does all of this while being single-classed. If he wants the dwarven defender / PrC approach, the afforementioned deepstone sentinel will do the trick -- as I said earlier, it's like a dwarven defender except actually good at its job. If I honestly thought a fighter would be a good choice for him, I'd have provided a 6th level fighter-type build that didn't suck and would continue to meet his expectations at higher levels. Sadly, the fighter is not up to this task in general and isn't the best option when it comes to tanks or new players. Hell, I could do it while ignoring the crusader altogether (which would be odd, since it is the tanking class). On the other hand... the simpler solution, playing a crusader, handles the problem just as easily and lets him toy around somewhat with the game on his own terms (even from one encounter to the next!) instead of sticking rigorously to a build scheme (which is what he'd need to do as a fighter). It's one thing to ask for advice. It's quite another to ask for advice and then plod onward with the very thing people have advised against.
DragonicHeritage 05-01-07, 01:55 AM	You should use a Dwarven Urgrosh... The Spearhead on the end can be readied against a charge to deal double damage.
danielinthewolvesden 05-01-07, 03:50 AM	I'm mentioning crusader because he wanted a *tank*. His first post mentioned a tank, and his later ones didn't say he didn't have access to the book (he listed a bunch of books and then said "Just to name a few, ;-)"). He plans on making this worse by taking the Dwarven Defender, which is supposed to be a tank but in reality isn't even a speed bump since it can't actually pose a threat to its opponents and its chief ability requires it to sacrifice mobility, which basically means "Okay, monsters, you can ignore me now and move on to the squishier members of the party". It's one thing to ask for advice. It's quite another to ask for advice and then plod onward with the very thing people have advised against. He did ask for advice but excluded both ToB classes and "complicated" Pc's, both of which exclude your crusader. And the DD is widely aknowledged as being a very good PC. You do not need mobility if the monsters have to get through you to get to the parties wizard. Look, guy- some folks REALLY like the ToB. We get it. But some other folks do not. You have to get that. The ToB is not the right solution here, no matter that at higher levels it is more flexible and likely more powerful- as it is MANY times more complicated. Back to the OP. Now we have 4 levels of Fighter, going towards DD. Great. But you need 3 more levels. They must be a full BAB class. Fighter is not the best option for those 3 levels- all you get is one extra bonus feat. Pally is out due to low CHA, and so is Hexblade. Bbn does not gain a lot over straight fighter, since you will be wearing heavy armour. Samurai is just ridiculous, so that leaves- Ranger. Hmm, Ranger gets Endurance for "free". And a Good Reflex save and- FOUR MORE SKILL POINTS PER LEVEL. Now, if you are willing to delay Weapon Spec, that gives this build a nice loophole-take the three levels of Ranger 1st. That gives you a huge boost in skill points. 1. Ranger, Toughness (or Imp toughness if the DM agrees) 2. Ranger (two wpn fighting, why not?) 3. Ranger (Endurance) Indomitable Soul 4. Dwarven Fighter (weapon focus- axes) 5. Fighter, Dodge 6. Fighter, feat- maybe Great Fort? Shield Spec? Close Quarters Fighting? Imp Toughness? 7. Fighter, Weapon Spec. 8. DD 9 and so forth for 9 more levels. If you want more HP, take my level 4 (Dwarven Fighter)at level 1, then Ranger for 3, then Fighter for another 3.
runestar 05-01-07, 04:51 AM	I agree with Tempest that what you are building is not so much a tank, but more of a glorified doorstop. But I guess the OP will not be interested in gimmicky builds like changeling knight4/warshaper4/crusader12. And to be honest, I also feel that a fighter is not really that "no-brainer" class everyone seems to be making it out to be. Tons of bonus feats means tons of choices, which also implies you will be spoiled for decisions if you have not yet had a firm idea of what role you want to play. It is very easy to get seduced into taking craptacular feats like monkey grip and weapon focus, while ignoring mainstays like improved trip and combat reflexes. You have no means of drawing enemy fire to yourself, no way of saving the party wizard from being brutalized(any smart opponent will almost always target the wizard first and foremost, followed ideally by the party cleric), and most importantly, no way of stopping enemies from simply running past you. I suppose you could buy a hat of disguise and make yourself look like the party wizard, while the wizard disguises himself as the party fighter.:P Nevertheless, if that is what the OP has decided, when we will just have to make do with what we have. If you have UA, consider the dwarf paragon class. Maybe take 2 lvs of deepwarden for con mod to AC. You should have little problems attaining decent hp and AC, now all is left is to find a means of battlefield control. I seriously recommend that you scrap dwarven defender. Go pure fighter instead if you must. Tripping would be the best solution. Have enlarge person cast on you, get a spiked chain, take improved trip, combat reflexes etc. You won't be doing that much damage, someone else may need to contribute to this as well. Just my 2 cents.
Manic Man 05-01-07, 10:13 AM	I agree with the rest who say the fighter is *not* a beginner class. The barbarian is a beginner melee class The beguiler or warmage is a beginner caster class (and its still complex) Thats about it for beginner classes. The rest are too variable and easy to trip up
runestar 05-01-07, 10:38 AM	Cleric can be construed as a beginner class as well, since you still have spontaneous healing to fall back on at the end of the day, regardless of how badly you screw up your spell choices.:)
Wild Cat 05-02-07, 02:19 PM	I'm mentioning crusader because he wanted a *tank*. His first post mentioned a tank, and his later ones didn't say he didn't have access to the book (he listed a bunch of books and then said "Just to name a few, ;-)"). He mentioned he's new to the game; I suspect this is why he's drawn to the fighter. First of all, I'm not new to the game. I've bin playing it for over 10 years now. But I've only played a rogue class. Mixed it with a fighter, but thats about all the experiance I have when playing the class my self. The rest of my experiance comes from reading and being a DM. I really appreciate all the feedback I'm getting from every body. This crusader class/prestige class you speak of really make me want to learn more about it. You mentions ToB... And I miss took it for Tome and Blood, a book I have. Where does ToB stand for?
Bob Loblaw 05-02-07, 02:29 PM	Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. The class is really good but it is far from perfect. The two problems I have with the class are: 1) I really hate the randomness with the maneuvers. 2) They can't get their highest level maneuvers without taking a feat. #1 turns me off to the class completely. I just don't feel like I have enough control with my character's actions. Warblade may work for you as well. The only thing that it really lack as far as I can tell is Heavy Armor Proficiency. This is easily remedied by taking a single feat. Nothing seems to prevent his abilities from working with heavy armor.
starfire311 05-02-07, 02:48 PM	Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. The class is really good but it is far from perfect. The two problems I have with the class are: 1) I really hate the randomness with the maneuvers. 2) They can't get their highest level maneuvers without taking a feat. #1 turns me off to the class completely. I just don't feel like I have enough control with my character's actions. Warblade may work for you as well. The only thing that it really lack as far as I can tell is Heavy Armor Proficiency. This is easily remedied by taking a single feat. Nothing seems to prevent his abilities from working with heavy armor. #1 really bugged me too, untill I actually played the class, with redundancy it really isnt a big issue, I get 5 readied maneuvers, I got 3 that do extra damage, and 2 that heal, odds are if I don't already have one in my hand it is only a round or 2 away. The randomness, just means that you at most can use a maneuver once every 4 rounds
Tempest Stormwind 05-02-07, 02:52 PM	Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. The class is really good but it is far from perfect. The two problems I have with the class are: 1) I really hate the randomness with the maneuvers. 2) They can't get their highest level maneuvers without taking a feat. #1 turns me off to the class completely. I just don't feel like I have enough control with my character's actions. Warblade may work for you as well. The only thing that it really lack as far as I can tell is Heavy Armor Proficiency. This is easily remedied by taking a single feat. Nothing seems to prevent his abilities from working with heavy armor.Nothing does, but it's still a feat. For that same feat, you could have taken Extra Granted Maneuver as a crusader, meaning you are far more likely to gain your preferred maneuvers when you need them. Here are the reasons the crusader is the superior tank to the warblade (that can't be mitigated with simple feat choices on the warblade): 1) No action required to recover maneuvers. His maneuvers recover automatically; there's almost no reason to not use one if you have the opportunity. 2) Steely Resolve + Furious Counterstrike. These crusader-only class features turn the damage you take into an offensive powerhouse -- and if you combine it with 3 below (or, more optimally, the Stone Power feat), you can essentially walk away with DR 10/- for as long as you are in melee. 3) DEVOTED SPIRIT. This is freaking HUGE. The warblade-exclusive school, Iron Heart, is best used against swarms of creatures, when surrounded, or when you would be counted out of combat. Devoted Spirit, on the other hand, gives you healing and smiting strikes, defensive counters that protect your allies, stances that prevent enemy movement or offensive actions against your allies, and boosts that force your target to attack YOU instead of your allies. When combined with 2, it means you have an effective version of Goad without a saving throw attached to it. Do note that Devoted Spirit has a few maneuvers that overlap with other schools (Vanguard Strike = Leading the Attack (White Raven), Foehammer = Mountain Hammer (Stone Dragon, sans the "must be standing on the ground" limit), and so on). This is not a bad thing for two reasons: If you select both copies, it doubles your chances of getting that maneuver in the granting process, and if you select only one you can get that (useful) effect but choose which school to learn the maneuver from (i.e. you can use Vanguard Strike to qualify for higher-level Devoted Spirit maneuvers or take Leading the Attack to qualify for White Raven maneuvers, while getting the same effect). As for the randomness: I think PhoenixInferno put it best:A random choice out of a pile of AWESOMENESS is never a bad thing.Just take Extra Granted Maneuver and actually read how the system works. It's not as harsh as people think -- with that feat, you have an 80% chance of having any given maneuver by the end of your first round as a low-level crusader, and you'll have four maneuvers ready to go by that point. Let's be honest -- how often are you, a melee type, in position to use your best trick in the first round (unless your best trick is a charge -- which, hey, the crusader can do too, even without a maneuver, although he's got maneuvers to sweeten the deal more)? You won't hurt for options unless you ready four crappy maneuvers and one gem (which is a bad idea in general, and actually pretty hard to do with a crusader since their maneuvers tend to be *awesome*, especially in White Raven and Devoted Spirit). And as for that high-level maneuver problem: That's ONLY stances. And the developers have been on record saying it was a mistake. (Just delay the levels a crusader learns his later stances at by one and it all solves itself.) I thought I'd hate the crusader as well, especially since the warblade looked so fun... until I made a crusader as an NPC. That was honestly the most fun I'd ever had playing any character mechanically, hands down.
Bob Loblaw 05-02-07, 03:39 PM	Ok, with this new information I'm going to make one for an upcoming game at 7th level. I'm still apprehensive, but I'll give it a shot. We need a tank in our group right now anyway and his non-maneuvers are still pretty good.
Jenrock 05-03-07, 05:52 PM	A lot of people are suggesting Barbarian as your next three levels. I suggest a varaible barbarian found in Dragon #330 called Implacable. It does not gain normal rage, but rather a "Resilient Rage" that grants +4 to Dexterity and Constitution, and DR 1/- (the DR stacks with the DR the barbarian usually gets). Additionally, although they lose fast movement, they have proficiency with all armor and shields.
Tempest Stormwind 05-03-07, 05:59 PM	The people who keep suggesting Barbarian forget that he's going for Dwarven Defender, and that those two classes have conflicting alignment requirements.
RadicalTaoist 05-03-07, 09:57 PM	If he's not going to touch ToB, Tempest, we might as well recommend a Knight/Dwarven Defender with a spiked chain and Stand Still. I know a crusader is better, and you know it's better, but there's being right and then there's being as helpful as possible.
starfire311 05-04-07, 08:24 AM	If he's not going to touch ToB, Tempest, we might as well recommend a Knight/Dwarven Defender with a spiked chain and Stand Still. I know a crusader is better, and you know it's better, but there's being right and then there's being as helpful as possible. A problem with that build is that you lose out on one of your class abilities, shield block, but it may be possible to get it back with a damn floaty shield
Hydryh 05-04-07, 10:38 AM	I'll admit that I only read the original post, so please forgive me if this has been suggested: Race: Dwarf Ability Focii: Con. Then Dex, Str, Wis, Int, and Cha, in that order. ASAP: Switch to Dwarven Defender (DMG). Gear to Have: Tower, Full Plate, any 1h weapon.
RadicalTaoist 05-04-07, 05:53 PM	If he doesn't mind cross setting stuff, there's a one-handed weapon with spiked chain reach in Secrets of Sarlona. It's called a spinning sword.
danielinthewolvesden 05-19-07, 04:18 PM	Just an interesting update. In our group we have a ToB/BoNS worshipper. He ran the first ToB PC in our games and has consistently ran one since, he loves the book, and thinks the classes there are the best. In my current campaign he is running a Crusader. He loves the class, but he has stated "this is the single most complicated class I have even played, even worse than a wizard or a psion." He thinks it rocks, however. So, altho Crusader is likely a better class than Dwarven Defender, it completely & totally fails the OP's requirement for a "simple" character.
Solian 05-19-07, 04:27 PM	I've hardly read over others posts, but if your going for a tank, i'd go the whole 9 yards and go for Dwarf, going into dwarven defender. Ok, yeah, people usually just run right past you, but combined with knights challenge (if you go for the knight route) works wonders. Toughness and imrpoved toughness will also work wonders with your HP, as well as maybe a tower shield, which allows you to take cover behind it, as well as granting a +4 bonus to ac. Dwarf also allows you to move 20ft whatever, even in heavy Armour, which is as good as a human in heavy Armour. Just my 2 cents, thats all.
Lednera 05-19-07, 09:37 PM	not sure if this has been mentioned but this prestige class makes your defensive tank be the best, takes a bit to manage but I enjoyed it. Custom made by guys here on the forums a while back. http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-233864