Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TelinArtho 05-20-05, 11:17 AM	I haven't posted in a while for a number of reasons, but mostly because my DM hasn't been running his game for a while. Just this past weekend though, not only did he run his game, but there's been some developments on my whole "Build an army" bent... Here's some links to my past topics about these lines of thought: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=349630 -- thoughts about cohorts http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=341370 -- building an army with CHA 8 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=356448 -- so you want an army eh? 1. Thoughts about cohorts is my topic covering what I should get as a cohort for my character. 2. Building an Army with Cha 8 is a very long thread about variations on the costs of an army and complications with my quest to take out a hill giant tribe. 3. So you want an army eh? is a thesis on estimating the power of two different armies and seeing how they ramp up against each other. In the most recent adventure, my party started off in a dwarven city, where we had about 1 month of downtime. I spent some time (pretty much the entire month) looking for a suitable Dwarven Bard who would like to accompany me on my upcoming quests. I found a reasonable one according to the criteria I had spelled out and he joins me from now on. After we left the dwarven city, we faced a combat with a Greenvise (MMII or III I think). It was a hard battle, but we did overcome. Kern, the bard, didn't really get to see much though. Our next leg of the quest was to go to the City of Games - which is largely known for its slave trade and arenas. Here, we needed to get the "Blood of a champion" - and in order to do so, it seemed most reasonable to become a champion ourselves - so I volunteered myself for the effort. My first battle in arena combat was with a Thri-kreen who made use of spiked chains and trip attacks. While I had managed to boost my actual AC up to 41, my AC against touch attacks was only 16. Luckily, he missed on most of his attacks, and the ones where he didn't miss, I was successful in my opposed check. I made short work of him (though this was helped because I started the fight off with 3 javelins of lightning...). My second combat was with the current champion (a minotaur barbarian). This was a little tougher, and I had managed to boost my AC up to 46 (I think) to help out. It was still a close battle, myself on the receiving end of 3 of his hits and taking a total of 70 damage. I did persevere however and went home a champion. It brought me a purse of 5,000pp. So now, in the span of 1 adventure I have accomplished two of my goals: 1. to get a cohort to spread the word of my great deeds (Kern, the Dwarven Bard) 2. some deeds to have my bard talk about and put into story (he's an orator). 3. to get some cash to help fund the army I will be building. I also have a select group of magical weapons that I can use to entice people to join my cause. Included in this bunch are 2 magical spiked chains (+1 and +2), a huge greataxe (+3, flaming), a large chain shirt (+5). Since these are pretty rare to come by (in terms of size and skill to use), I think I should be searching for specific people to make use of them. Another option is to sell or trade these items for other, more useful ones, but since they are not really in-demand items, their trading value is limited. So next up is to find suitable users of the items I've got at my disposal. One of these will need to be a large sized character. The spiked chains are of less importance to me, but if I can find a skilled user of them - all the better. Ideas for a large sized, good-aligned humanoid? My character is neutral good, so true neutral, chaotic good are both reasonable as well. An ogre or minotaur are probably reasonable options as long as I can find one who isn't inherently evil and one that won't mind doing battle with ogres/giants. I also need to start building my army. Unfortunately, the next place we are headed is not likely a good choice (the City of Plagues - no I know nothing about the place, but it definitely doesn't sound good...). With the cash I've got (around 50k gp equivalent), I should also start building up a store of equipment for my new hires in case they need to be better equipped. This will include a lot of low level magic items (+1 weapons and armor, potions, etc). My character just turned level 11 and is now a Fighter 6/Wizard 3/Spellsword 2. I just picked up Diplomacy as a skill. Next level, I'll be getting Improved Critical as my feat, and improving my strength for my ability increase. I will also get my 4th level of Wizard, which will make me a 5th level caster (3rd level spells). I wish I had more knowledge about my bard, but I think he's probably got a few levels of fighter in addition to his bard levels (not sure of this, but it was "kind of" a guideline I was working with). I expect he's probably around 6-8th level overall though. I don't know his selection of spells except that he doesn't have Cure Light Wounds (our party doesn't always have a healer, so it was an early question after we all got through the first fight...). With the army to build, I would like to see a group of 10-20 of reasonably experienced people under me (3rd-4th level if I can manage it). Although I don't have the leadership feat yet, if I did, my leadership score for followers would be between 9-11 - so I'm definitely stretching according to that scale. Still, my DM is willing to allow most things within reason and as long as I'm willing to put in the legwork for it. If I can't manage that large a group or even that high of a level, I will build them up one person at a time if I need to. The first group will probably be mostly fighter types, though I imagine it will work out (for a group of 10) with 6-7 fighter-types, 1 arcane caster, 2-3 divine casters. The fighter types could easily be warriors, fighters, barbarians, or rangers. Paladins are less of a choice but not completely out of the question.
TelinArtho 05-20-05, 05:31 PM	Rhineglade, in his campaign workshop thread found here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=180587, discusses different types of units. In my one of my other threads, I was trying to define a number of different things, and I really didn't break it down very much. In this topic, I'm going to try to address different units and the costs associated with them. Bear in mind, I am using the 3.0 SRD and PH/DMG from memory, so if something is a little off - I apologize in advance, and please do correct me if I am wrong. In Rhineglade's topic, he covers three basic cavalry types and three infantry types. I'm going to cover a few more here and discuss a few of the minimum skills required and potential pay schemes according to values which may or may not be realistic. Without further ado, here goes: 1. Knights Races: Any medium size race is suitable, but frequently human, half-orc, half-elf, elf or orc are all reasonable. Dwarven knights are found in dwarven armies mostly, and would ride smaller warhorses or other warbeasts (war bears are a favorite of mine...). Base Class(es): Fighter (warriors are acceptable, but they don't have the number of feats needed for this prestigious level of expertise. If a warrior is a knight, it would be typical that the warrior is 1-2 levels above an equivalent fighter knight). Minimum Level: 2 (Fighter), 4 (Warrior) Skills: (Required) Ride (Recommended) Animal Handling Feats: (Required) Mounted Combat (Recommended) Ride-by-Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (lance, sword) Base Equipment (cost): Hvy. Warhorse (400gp), Bit & Bridle (2gp), Military Saddle (20gp), Breastplate Barding (400gp), Hvy. Lance (10gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), Full Plate (1500gp), Hvy Stl. Shield (20gp) Base Upkeep: 6sp + 1sp/lvl above 2nd (or 4th for Warriors) per day 2. Heavy Cavalry Races: Any medium size race is suitable, but frequently human, half-orc, half-elf, elf or orc are all reasonable. Dwarven cavalry are found in dwarven armies mostly, and would ride smaller warhorses or other warbeasts (war bears are a favorite of mine...). Base Class(es): Fighter (warriors are acceptable. If a warrior is a heavy cavalry, it would be typical that the warrior is 1-2 levels above an equivalent fighter heavy cavalry). Minimum Level: 1 (Fighter), 2 (Warrior) Skills: (Required) Ride (Recommended) Animal Handling Feats: (Recommended) Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (lance, sword) Base Equipment (cost): Hvy. Warhorse (400gp), Bit & Bridle (2gp), Military Saddle (20gp), Scale Barding (100gp), Hvy. Lance (10gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), Banded Mail (250gp), Hvy Stl. Shield (20gp) Base Upkeep: 5sp + 1sp/lvl above 1st (or 5sp + 5cp/lvl above 2nd for Warriors) per day 3. Medium Cavalry Races: Any medium size race is suitable, but frequently human, half-orc, half-elf, elf or orc are all reasonable. Dwarven cavalry are found in dwarven armies mostly, and would ride smaller warhorses or other warbeasts (war bears are a favorite of mine...). Base Class(es): Warrior Minimum Level: 1 Skills: (Required) Ride (Recommended) Animal Handling Feats: (Recommended) Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (lance, sword) Base Equipment (cost): Hvy. Warhorse (400gp), Bit & Bridle (2gp), Military Saddle (20gp), Scale Barding (100gp), Hvy. Lance (10gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), Breastplate (200gp), Hvy Stl. Shield (20gp) Base Upkeep: 4sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day 4. Light Cavalry Races: Any medium size race is suitable, but frequently human, half-orc, half-elf, elf or orc are all reasonable. Dwarven cavalry are found in dwarven armies mostly, and would ride smaller warhorses or other warbeasts (war bears are a favorite of mine...). Base Class(es): Warrior Minimum Level: 1 Skills: (Required) Ride (Recommended) Animal Handling Feats: (Recommended) Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (lance, sword) Base Equipment (cost): Lgt. Warhorse (150gp), Bit & Bridle (2gp), Military Saddle (20gp), Scale Barding (100gp), Short Bow (30gp), 40 arrows (2gp), Long Sword (15gp), Dagger (2gp), Studded Leather (25gp), Sm. Wood Shield (3gp) Base Upkeep: 4sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day 5. Infantry Leader Races: Any Base Class(es): Fighter or Warrior Minimum Level: 2 (Fighter) or 4 (Warrior) Feats: (Recommended) Weapon Focus (sword, mace), Dodge, Expertise, Power Attack, Cleave Base Equipment (cost): Full Plate (1500gp), Lg. Stl. Shield (20gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), 2 Javelins (10gp) Base Upkeep: 4sp + 1sp/lvl above 2nd (or 4sp + 5cp/lvl above 4th for Warriors) per day 6. Heavy Infantry Races: Any Base Class(es): Fighter or Warrior Minimum Level: 1 (Fighter) or 2 (Warrior) Feats: (Recommended) Weapon Focus (glaive, sword, mace), Dodge, Expertise, Power Attack, Cleave Base Equipment (cost): Banded Mail (250gp), Buckler (15gp), Glaive (8gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), 2 Javelins (10gp) Base Upkeep: 3sp + 1sp/lvl above 1st (or 3sp + 5cp/lvl above 2nd for Warriors) per day 7. Medium Infantry Races: Any Base Class(es): Warrior Minimum Level: 1 Feats: (Recommended) Weapon Focus (glaive, sword, mace), Dodge, Expertise, Power Attack, Cleave Base Equipment (cost): Scale Mail (50gp), Buckler (15gp), Glaive (8gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), 2 Javelins (10gp) Base Upkeep: 2sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day 8. Light Infantry Races: Any Base Class(es): Warrior Minimum Level: 1 Feats: (Recommended) Weapon Focus (glaive, sword, mace), Dodge, Expertise, Power Attack, Cleave Base Equipment (cost): Leather (10gp), Long Spear (5gp), Long Sword (10gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), 2 Javelins (10gp) Base Upkeep: 2sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day 9. LongbowMen Races: Any Base Class(es): Warrior Minimum Level: 1 Feats: (Recommended) Weapon Focus (bow, sword), Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Dodge, Expertise Base Equipment (cost): Leather (10gp), Long Bow (75gp), 60 arrows (3gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp) Base Upkeep: 2sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day 10. Medic Races: Any Base Class(es): Adept Minimum Level: 1 Skills: (Required) Heal (Recommended) Alchemy Feats: (Recommended) Combat Casting, Brew Potion Base Equipment (cost): Hvy. Mace (12gp), Dagger (2gp), Healer's Kit (50gp), Wooden Holy Symbol (1gp) Base Upkeep: 2sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day 11. Healer Races: Any Base Class(es): Cleric Minimum Level: 1 Skills: (Required) Heal (Recommended) Alchemy, Spellcraft Feats: (Recommended) Combat Casting, Brew Potion, Craft Wand Base Equipment (cost): Hvy. Mace (12gp), Dagger (2gp), Breastplate (200gp), Lg. Stl Shield (20gp), Healer's Kit (50gp), Silver Holy Symbol (25gp), Wand of Cure Light Wounds (50 charges) (750gp) Base Upkeep: 3sp + 1sp/lvl above 1st per day I'll finish this up later with descriptions and the applications of the units as well as some information on the upkeep costs that probably don't jive. If anyone feels like commenting in the mean time - please feel free. /d
Board_Rider 05-20-05, 05:40 PM	Yeah I normally love these threads. But they should be posted in the much less viewed Creative Campaign area. Have you viewed the Heroes of Battle supplement? If so, what did ya think?
TelinArtho 05-21-05, 02:32 PM	Frankly I'm not sure why - as these are more like player decisions to me - I mean if I wasn't equipping the army - not considering what the cost of said army was - I'd be in bad shape. At the same time - I'm not creating a campaign or a world, but trying to flesh out the cost of an army for a player character. Regardless, if the powers that be desire the thread to be moved - so be it. I don't really care where it is. I have not seen the Heroes of Battle supplement - though it is on my short list of things to look through. If you have looked through it - care to offer an opinion? /d
Derren S. 05-21-05, 02:57 PM	And what about the small races? Halflings for example have a affinity for cavalry. Also how do you determine the upkeep cost for the soldiers? They seem very low especially for knights and healers.(Pc classes are expensive. The SBG lists a PC class with 30gp a month -> 1gp a day) You might look into Heroes of Battle as suggested (is that even released yet?) as it is supposed to deal with exactly this stuff. The Stronghold Builders Guidebook might also be interesting (not enough to buy it, but if you have the chance take a look). It already has predefined equipment packages for all sort of soldiers and monthly wages for hiring them. And one last thing, you should also add the total equipment cost of the unit into your overview.
TelinArtho 05-21-05, 09:41 PM	Well, I suppose I've never really considered the small races as really intrinsic in a non-small race army (obviously with an army of halflings - it would be more pressing to me). As far as the starting salaries go - this was based off of the amounts listed in the 3.0 DMG for Mercenary, Mounted Mercenary and Mercenary Leader (I believe). I agree that they are low, but as I don't have the SBG or the Heroes of Battle book to reference - I couldn't really use them. However, part of my analysis is not yet complete, because I was going to disagree with myself with regard to the upkeep costs. Here's a simple example: One day of stabling for a horse - 5sp Right off the bat, the mounted mercenary isn't being paid enough even to stable his horse. When you add in his food each day, lodging and just being able to support his belongings - the wage just doesn't make sense. If someone could come up with a reasonable amount for me - I would appreciate it. In the meantime, I'll be working with the guesses I've got.
feartheinvinceblehamster 05-21-05, 10:52 PM	maybe we should have a thread on the different types of soldiers!
TelinArtho 05-21-05, 11:25 PM	Well, if you mean specialized troops (halfling cavalry, minotaur infantry, etc), I don't have much interest in it - although that's another route to explore. For my purposes, I'm setting up the "standard" equipment according to what my character would want within his army. In all honesty, I don't even think I'll have this level of granularity. It is much more likely that I'll have a single unit of cavalry (with a leader or group of leaders), one group of infantry and one group of long range bowmen. Support units are likely as well, but I think there's less of a standard there. Also, Derren - I'll include the total cost of equipment when I get a chance.
Board_Rider 05-21-05, 11:54 PM	I have not seen the Heroes of Battle supplement - though it is on my short list of things to look through. If you have looked through it - care to offer an opinion? /d Haven't seen it myself bud. I am trying to buy it, though it seems as if noone carries it. Here is a thread about it. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=427591
TelinArtho 05-23-05, 12:02 PM	Infantry Units First off, I'm going to start with the light infantry - as I would imagine these are the cheapest units to start with and to maintain. They will also have a fair amount of turnover because they are neither well-armored nor well-skilled. To review from my previous post: 8. Light Infantry Races: Any Base Class(es): Warrior Minimum Level: 1 Feats: (Recommended) Weapon Focus (glaive, sword, mace), Dodge, Expertise, Power Attack, Cleave Base Equipment (cost): Leather (10gp), Long Spear (5gp), Long Sword (10gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), 2 Javelins (10gp) Base Upkeep: 2sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day Total Initial Equipment cost: 47gp The main benefit of Light Infantry is numbers coupled with reach weapons. A solid wall of long spears up against a charging force of regulars or cavalry will be able to deal devastating damage to any group. Base Upkeep comments: This amount was based off of the "Mercenary" entry in the 3.0 DMG. When in the field, rations are 5sp/day. When in town, a poor inn and poor meal, per day, is 3sp. Clearly 2sp/day is not a realistic amount, even for a relatively untrained individual. Since the light infantry is the base unit with the least training, I suspect the pay is the least as well. That being said, I don't think you can get one to be paid less than 5sp/day while in the field and 3sp/day while in town. So, I am going to adjust the pay for light infantry to 5sp, 5cp +1cp/lvl above first. This would probably cap out at 5sp, 8cp (4th level) - because at that point the infantry is too well trained to keep as light infantry (and therefore should be upgraded to a more solid unit type with better equipment). 7. Medium Infantry Races: Any Base Class(es): Warrior Minimum Level: 1 Feats: (Recommended) Weapon Focus (glaive, sword, mace), Dodge, Expertise, Power Attack, Cleave Base Equipment (cost): Scale Mail (50gp), Buckler (15gp), Glaive (8gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), 2 Javelins (10gp) Base Upkeep: 2sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day Total Initial Equipment cost: 105gp Medium infantry really are slightly better than Light Infantry, but guarantee nothing in terms of extra skill. One would hope that this unit would have a higher morale and slightly more experience, but quite simply, that won't always be the case. Medium infantry will probably be the 2nd most populous unit type in an army and will still have a fairly high turnover rate in battlefield situations. However, with units of this type, an experienced army will have more individuals with actual experience (as opposed to mostly green individuals). Base upkeep comments: Again, this was based off of the "Mercenary" entry in the 3.0 DMG. With my adjusted figure for Light Infantry, the Medium Infantry would be paid the same for green persons, but a little better for more experienced individuals. I think 5sp, 5cp + 2cp/lvl is a reasonable pay here. Also, a reasonable cap would probably be around 6-7th level, so 6sp, 7cp is probably about the most. 6. Heavy Infantry Races: Any Base Class(es): Fighter or Warrior Minimum Level: 1 (Fighter) or 2 (Warrior) Feats: (Recommended) Weapon Focus (glaive, sword, mace), Dodge, Expertise, Power Attack, Cleave Base Equipment (cost): Banded Mail (250gp), Buckler (15gp), Glaive (8gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), 2 Javelins (10gp) Base Upkeep: 3sp + 1sp/lvl above 1st (or 3sp + 5cp/lvl above 2nd for Warriors) per day Total Initial Equipment cost: 305gp Heavy infantry are the first units that actually have seen multiple battles or who have come from a good training background. They typically have a high morale and are much more skilled than the lesser infantry units. Base upkeep comments: With my adjusted figures for Light and Medium infantry, it is clear the heavy infantry should be paid more, so 6sp would be a good starting point, plus 2cp/lvl (warriors) or 3cp/lvl (fighters). Fighters will get a better pay rate because they have better initial training and will improve faster than warriors (for this, I'm going to cite a college-level education vs. high school-level - the college graduate may not be paid better initially, but the growth of said graduate will be greater and faster (on average). Of course, individuals may excel because of other factors). 5. Infantry Leader Races: Any Base Class(es): Fighter or Warrior Minimum Level: 2 (Fighter) or 4 (Warrior) Feats: (Recommended) Weapon Focus (sword, mace), Dodge, Expertise, Power Attack, Cleave Base Equipment (cost): Full Plate (1500gp), Lg. Stl. Shield (20gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), 2 Javelins (10gp) Base Upkeep: 4sp + 1sp/lvl above 2nd (or 4sp + 5cp/lvl above 4th for Warriors) per day Total Initial Equipment cost: 1552gp These are the most experienced commanders usually - though they may be in this position because of superior leadership capabilities. They will mostly be in this position because of previous encounters and will almost never be completely green in the ways of battle. Base upkeep comments: This figure was based off of the "mercenary leader" entry in the DMG. I'm adjusting it along with the others to 7sp + 3cp/lvl (warriors) or 5cp/lvl (fighters).
TelinArtho 05-23-05, 01:11 PM	Comments about the initial equipment cost figures: First of all, I am not really expecting that every person would need to be outfitted with the specific equipment, as some will bring their own equipment in. For the less experienced troops, where a turnover rate is large, you will eventually have people who die and already have the equipment on hand (especially in terms of weapons, some armor will still need to be paid for). As such it would seem you could pay for 100 "units" of light infantry and just rotate people in without further cost. This however is not very realistic. The initial cost is really the cost of the equipment you need to provide (and replace) AND the cost associated with recruiting the individual. In actuality, your original outset (as an individual trying to hire an army) might be quite significantly more if you are not well known or have a bad reputation. This figure, unfortunately, is difficult to quantify. As such, the initial cost, is simply the equipment. In later installments, even though you have the bulk of the equipment, you will still outlay the same amount because of these other factors. I may try to come up with a system for hiring mechanisms, but I think there might just be too many factors to worry about for it. Also, if you are hiring more experienced individuals, like leaders and heavy infantry, the likelihood is that they will be looking for a sort of signing bonus - but they are also likely to bring along their own equipment, because it is simply better. Also, since it is their equipment, rather than yours, it is likely that this equipment will be returned to surviving heirs and such rather than added to your own barracks. The exception here is probably for cavalry - as horses will not be as likely to be replaced as long as they survive the encounters. So horses will probably need to be tracked separately from the original cost. In any case, the more I think about this, the more I think I'm going to have to rework this theory a little bit. To expend 50gp in search for a 1st level warrior seems a little high; to expend 1500gp in search of a 4th level fighter also seems high... Maybe this should be entirely scrapped... /d
TelinArtho 05-23-05, 01:28 PM	Mounted Cavalry The biggest hindrance of recruiting cavalry units is often the supply of able-bodied warhorses. As such, the biggest effort of recruiting cavalry units is finding the horses and making sure they are well trained for the scenarios you will put them in. If the horses are not very well battle-tested, animal handling skills will definitely come into play. 4. Light Cavalry Races: Any medium size race is suitable, but frequently human, half-orc, half-elf, elf or orc are all reasonable. Dwarven cavalry are found in dwarven armies mostly, and would ride smaller warhorses or other warbeasts (war bears are a favorite of mine...). Base Class(es): Warrior Minimum Level: 1 Skills: (Required) Ride (Recommended) Animal Handling Feats: (Recommended) Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (lance, sword) Base Equipment (cost): Lgt. Warhorse (150gp), Bit & Bridle (2gp), Military Saddle (20gp), Scale Barding (100gp), Short Bow (30gp), 40 arrows (2gp), Long Sword (15gp), Dagger (2gp), Studded Leather (25gp), Sm. Wood Shield (3gp) Base Upkeep: 4sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day Total Initial Equipment cost: 349gp Light Cavalry are a combination between light ranged support for infantry and heavier cavalry and melee combat specialists. Although Ride-by-attack, as a feat, is a recommendation - this is really a nice feat to have. Mounted Archery would also be a good idea. Base upkeep should not take into account the horses, and will be on the same pay scale as a light infantry. Again, as the individuals get up to and beyond level 4, I would imagine they would be upgraded to better equipment and therefore a different pay scale. 3. Medium Cavalry Races: Any medium size race is suitable, but frequently human, half-orc, half-elf, elf or orc are all reasonable. Dwarven cavalry are found in dwarven armies mostly, and would ride smaller warhorses or other warbeasts (war bears are a favorite of mine...). Base Class(es): Warrior Minimum Level: 1 Skills: (Required) Ride (Recommended) Animal Handling Feats: (Recommended) Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (lance, sword) Base Equipment (cost): Hvy. Warhorse (400gp), Bit & Bridle (2gp), Military Saddle (20gp), Scale Barding (100gp), Hvy. Lance (10gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), Breastplate (200gp), Hvy Stl. Shield (20gp) Base Upkeep: 4sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day Total Initial Equipment cost: 774gp Medium cavalry are the mainstay front line cavalry. Although heavy cavalry are able to withstand much more in terms of fighting, the medium cavalry will probably be the largest unit of the mounted portion of the army. They are fairly easy to train and include a reasonable amount of equipment to help the riders survive. Also, since horses sometimes survive their riders, replacing a medium cavalry unit may only involve choice equipment pieces and the rider himself. Base upkeep should not take into account the horses. and will be on the same pay scale as a medium infantry. Again, as the individuals get up to and beyond level 6-7, I would imagine they would be upgraded to better equipment and therefore a different pay scale. 2. Heavy Cavalry Races: Any medium size race is suitable, but frequently human, half-orc, half-elf, elf or orc are all reasonable. Dwarven cavalry are found in dwarven armies mostly, and would ride smaller warhorses or other warbeasts (war bears are a favorite of mine...). Base Class(es): Fighter (warriors are acceptable. If a warrior is a heavy cavalry, it would be typical that the warrior is 1-2 levels above an equivalent fighter heavy cavalry). Minimum Level: 1 (Fighter), 2 (Warrior) Skills: (Required) Ride (Recommended) Animal Handling Feats: (Recommended) Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (lance, sword) Base Equipment (cost): Hvy. Warhorse (400gp), Bit & Bridle (2gp), Military Saddle (20gp), Scale Barding (100gp), Hvy. Lance (10gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), Banded Mail (250gp), Hvy Stl. Shield (20gp) Base Upkeep: 5sp + 1sp/lvl above 1st (or 5sp + 5cp/lvl above 2nd for Warriors) per day Total Initial Equipment cost: 824gp Heavy cavalry will vary little from Medium cavalry except in terms of overall skill (the frequency of trained fighters is much higher in heavy cavalry than in medium cavalry) and slightly better armor. Also, the best of the heavy cavalry will be promoted into "knight" status (not that they are actual knights, but they bear the arms of a more experienced group). Base upkeep for heavy cavalry are based off of the heavy infantry. Heavy cavalry usually get to pick and choose the horses for their unit from the best (after the knights get their pick anyway). 1. Knights Races: Any medium size race is suitable, but frequently human, half-orc, half-elf, elf or orc are all reasonable. Dwarven knights are found in dwarven armies mostly, and would ride smaller warhorses or other warbeasts (war bears are a favorite of mine...). Base Class(es): Fighter (warriors are acceptable, but they don't have the number of feats needed for this prestigious level of expertise. If a warrior is a knight, it would be typical that the warrior is 1-2 levels above an equivalent fighter knight). Minimum Level: 2 (Fighter), 4 (Warrior) Skills: (Required) Ride (Recommended) Animal Handling Feats: (Required) Mounted Combat (Recommended) Ride-by-Attack, Trample, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (lance, sword) Base Equipment (cost): Hvy. Warhorse (400gp), Bit & Bridle (2gp), Military Saddle (20gp), Breastplate Barding (400gp), Hvy. Lance (10gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp), Full Plate (1500gp), Hvy Stl. Shield (20gp) Base Upkeep: 6sp + 1sp/lvl above 2nd (or 4th for Warriors) per day Total Initial Equipment cost: 2374gp Knights are the pick of the best heavy cavalry and are often quite experienced in comparison with the rest of the cavalry. Very few are given the equipment of this level of experience without a good deal of proven skill in battle. Leadership qualities are also often a factor before reaching this level. The term knight in this instance is not reflective of an actual position bestowed by a king or lord, but rather an internal designation of an elite force that should be able to beat most kinds of other military units. Base upkeep for knights are based off of the infantry leaders, and they also get the best choice of horses among the army and will follow a strict hierarchy among themselves in most cases.
TelinArtho 05-23-05, 01:46 PM	The other units (Longbowmen, Medics) 9. LongbowMen Races: Any Base Class(es): Warrior Minimum Level: 1 Feats: (Recommended) Weapon Focus (bow, sword), Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Dodge, Expertise Base Equipment (cost): Leather (10gp), Long Bow (75gp), 60 arrows (3gp), Long Sword (15gp), Lgt. Mace (5gp), Dagger (2gp) Base Upkeep: 2sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day Total Initial Equipment cost: 110gp The standard long range unit for most armies will be composed of ranks of longbowmen. Although different varieties can and will be found, for the most part, I would expect them to be fairly lightly armored and well away from most of the combat scene. As such, they are mostly a support type unit to whittle down the opposing force before the battle is fully joined. Also, as a result of this, they will have a low turnover rate, since many will be able to flee if the battle is going poorly or will have enough of a front line to defend them against melee combat. However, when losses in this line of the army do come in - it is often as a consequence of the demise of a good portion of the rest of the army. Base upkeep for longbowmen are based off of light infantry and progresses along those lines as high as experienced men will go. Although trained individuals often face better wages, their usefulness once the battle is joined is very difficult to put a number on and are therefore "underpaid." 10. Medic Races: Any Base Class(es): Adept Minimum Level: 1 Skills: (Required) Heal (Recommended) Alchemy Feats: (Recommended) Combat Casting, Brew Potion Base Equipment (cost): Hvy. Mace (12gp), Dagger (2gp), Healer's Kit (50gp), Wooden Holy Symbol (1gp) Base Upkeep: 2sp + 5cp/lvl above 1st per day Total Initial Equipment cost: 65gp Medics serve a different role than in-battle healers. Medics are really there to pull the fallen wounded (and not dead) out of the front lines so they can be tended and healed. Although some might be close behind the front lines if the front lines are particularly strong, most will simply hang back and move in as needed. They are not particularly well trained and their morale is probably shaky at worst. Those who are actual clerics would benefit the rest of the troops with improvement spells (bless etc) and can actually defend themselves quite well if the front lines were breached. As such, the pay difference between an adept and a regular cleric is significant. Base upkeep for a medic is based off of light infantry and progresses along those lines. If the medic is in fact a cleric, base upkeep is adjusted as if the unit was a heavy infantry fighter (6sp +3cp/lvl). Also, the equipment for a full cleric can vary from unarmored (as the medic) to full plate (to a combination heavy infantry/medic). The healer designation has been dropped for now.
TelinArtho 05-23-05, 01:56 PM	Comments about the upkeep costs: So, my adjusted amounts are probably still a little low by the standards set in the SBG for the PC classes, but at the same time are high with regard to the amounts specified in the DMG for the mercenary units. I tried to base them off of a reasonable life outside of the army - but we'll have to see how that goes. Also, for each horse, the base upkeep is 5sp/day in town and 5cp/day in the field. Lastly, I probably should've included tents and other camp equipment as an equipment cost - but I think in the grand scheme of things this will probably be a smaller factor than it seems. I usually assign 2 people/tent for light/medium/other units and 1 person/tent for heavy/leader/knight units. This is purely arbitrary, but at least it is something to work with. Also, the margin for each unit is pretty small and that is deliberate. While the people are not paid overly well for their service, nor was a farmer or rancher. Individuals could also benefit from sneaking trinkets from opponents defeated as well as side efforts within the army (trained individuals who could fix armor or equipment would probably earn a little more than a similar person without such training). Regardless, keeping up with the daily costs of running an army will need some steady stream of income or at the very least a large nest egg off of which the army could be paid. I'll present a couple of smaller armies and this should be quite evident. /d
Board_Rider 05-23-05, 02:00 PM	I would also reccomend (or perhaps remind?) Phalanx Fighting (Complete Warrior) and Tower Shield Proficiency would also be good Feats for a Heavy Infantry unit. Kinda specialized.
TelinArtho 05-23-05, 02:09 PM	Well, I'm still dealing with 3.0 - so the tower shield thing isn't necessary there, but the phalanx fighting is probably a good idea (though I've never seen it - I think I remember hearing about it being good for this sort of thing...). Clearly there are feats that I'm missing, but I was just using what I had in the player's handbook to start.
TelinArtho 05-23-05, 02:26 PM	Knight, 1 lvl 5 fighter, 9sp/day, 2374gp initial, 6gp, 3sp/week Hvy. Cavalry, 5 lvl 2 fighters, 6sp, 3cp/day, 4120gp initial, 22gp, 5cp/week Hvy. Cavalry, 4 lvl 3 warriors, 6sp, 4cp/day, 3296gp initial, 17gp, 9sp, 2cp/week Med. Cavalry, 10 lvl 1 warriors, 5sp, 5cp/day, 7740gp initial, 38gp, 5sp/week Lgt. Cavalry, 10 lvl 1 warriors, 5sp, 5cp/day, 3490gp initial, 38gp, 5sp/week 30 horses, 5sp/day in town, 5cp/day in the field; 105gp/week in town, 10gp, 5sp/week in the field Infantry Leader, 1 lvl 5 fighter, 9sp/day, 1552gp initial, 6gp, 3sp/week Hvy. Infantry, 5 lvl 3 fighters, 6sp, 6cp/day, 1525gp initial, 23gp, 1sp/week Hvy. Infantry, 5 lvl 3 warriors, 6sp, 4cp/day, 1525gp initial, 22gp, 4sp/week Med. Infantry, 10 lvl 2 warriors, 5sp, 7cp/day, 1050gp initial, 39gp, 9sp/week Med. Infantry, 20 lvl 1 warriors, 5sp, 5cp/day, 2100gp initial, 77gp/week Lgt. Infantry, 50 lvl 1 warriors, 5sp, 5cp/day, 2350gp initial, 192gp, 5sp/week Longbowmen, 10 lvl 2 warriors, 5sp, 6cp/day, 1100gp initial, 39gp, 2sp/week Longbowmen, 30 lvl 1 warriors, 5sp, 5cp/day, 3300gp initial, 115gp, 5sp/week Medic, 5 lvl 1 adepts, 5sp, 5cp/day, 325gp initial, 19gp, 2sp, 5cp/week Totals: 166 units (30 horses) 35,847gp initial outlay 658gp, 4sp, 2cp/week + horses (either 105gp/week or 10gp, 5sp/week) In my situation, I've got 50kgp available, so I'd be able to build up this army and support it for 18.5 - 21 weeks without any additional money earned or spent. Luckily for me, I think my original army will be a fair bit smaller than this.
Derren S. 05-23-05, 03:06 PM	Your upkeep costs for PC classes are way too low. Those are exceptional individuals, not common mercenaries. A normal mercenary is a lvl 1 warrior, nothing more. Just aks yourself, would your players work for this money?
Gedrin 05-23-05, 04:08 PM	Depending on your resources, you may be able to avoid the formation army in favor of a smaller army with more mobile and higher firepower units. If you have the industrial/magical resources to support them, sleep grenades are a bargain at 50gp. Fireball casters make for awesome support weapons, and due to their perfect accuracy, can be used where mundane archers and support weapons are useless...not to mention they're superior fear weapons since they're basically horrbile burning autodeath to normal units. It may be that you don't have the resources to invest in this kind of army, but if you did have the caster resources to support this sort of force, I would use it instead. Though, those kinds of resources tend to take a while to build.
TelinArtho 05-23-05, 05:30 PM	Derren - I still agree with you - but I also think that other than fighters - PCs really wouldn't find themselves in army situations unless they were a) desperate or b) forced into it (via obligation or conscription). In both of these cases, they'd probably be underpaid - but it still doesn't work in this model. Consider the issue dropped until I can get a hold of the SBG (unless you want to iron it out more than 30gp/month (how does it progress upwards?)). Gedrin - a higher level army has its plusses and minuses that's for sure. First of all, getting a bunch of relatively higher level characters (mean level of 5th), would take much more time and effort. The cost would be higher per person, and a single loss could be fairly devastating (take for instance, a small group of fireball-casting wizards getting hit with a fireball and knocking them all out...). What I'm looking for is something that is a little bit more martial in nature and that could take a little more in terms of damage. For certain, I would outfit my unit with items that would make the battle move more smoothly - but also bear in mind that my character is trying to think ahead. He's got the money now to be able to bring up an army - but he needs to be able to support it for a longer period of time and be able to hit two main goals - a hill giant tribe (take down the leader especially) and a castle (and then protect it going forward). A fireball-wielding wizard is only as good as his daily spell allotment (and wands would be expensive to maintain as well...). I'm not saying I won't have one - but magic isn't necessarily the only option worth considering. One last thing about that is that a higher level group wouldn't necessarily be as loyal (and loyalty is subjective). Since a higher level group would be able to do things on their own - why would they stick around under my direction? A bunch of lower level units are great when all together, but individually, they are vulnerable. Also, if some of them are fairly green - then I can get a good amount of capability for a relatively cheap price. In the end, I'm not sold on either route. I'm not real pleased with the thought of 1st level warriors, but the cost of many 5th level fighters etc would be much higher (and not by a factor of five...). Of course, the hill giant tribe is part of the reason why this is such a hard decision for me - the hill giants absolutely decimate things that are 3rd level or lower... /d
TelinArtho 05-24-05, 11:27 AM	For now, I'm going to make a few new assumptions and run with them: 1. PC classes will take twice as long to find a qualified individual and the higher the level you need, this time will increase exponentially. 2. PC classes will take a wage of 1gp/level/day minimum. I am of the opinion that this would also grow exponentially (1gp/day at 1st, 4gp/day at 2nd, 9gp/day at 3rd, etc.) Having a high level unit of player character classes is an expensive proposition. 3. NPC classes are fairly easy to find up to about level 5 if you are in a large city, as such, times for recruiting such individuals is fairly minimal. Beyond level 5, the time will start to increase pretty quickly and is subject to the maximum bounds of the city. 4. NPC classes will take a smaller wage than the PC classes and will also grow at a slower pace. 2sp/level/day seems to be a reasonable minimum (according to the 3.0 dmg), but I would start it at 5sp/day + 2sp/level/day (2sp/day isn't enough to have a meal and a room...). 5. NPC classes may not be especially more loyal to a leader than PC classes, but will be subject to substantially less obligations from outside sources (this goes mostly for the non-fighter PC classes). Also, an NPC class is less likely to have to conflict with the leader because of political or moral issues (a druid will not condone the taking down of a forest at all, a warrior may feel it is okay as long as the leader has a good reason to do so). 6. Certain PC classes will do well in an army, while others will not. Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, Rogues, Wizards, some Clerics and Bards all have some place in an army. Druids, some Clerics, Paladins and Monks are probably a little less well suited (though they do have their places on occasion as well). 7. Due to the increased cost of the PC classes and the extra time for recuitment, they are not very likely to be a significant portion of any army (though in smaller numbers, "significant" could be redefined). I will give two quick examples when I get a chance.
TelinArtho 05-24-05, 11:38 AM	Here's a quick example: 1. 3rd level Fighter Heavy Infantry. 9gp/day 2. 3rd level Warrior Heavy Infantry. 9sp/day Same BAB, 3d10 vs. 3d8 hp, Same AC, Same Weapons/Armor. Fighter will have 2 more feats. However, the Warrior is 1/10th the cost. Another quick example: 1. 1st level Fighter Medium Cavalry. 1gp/day 2. 3rd level Warrior Medium Cavalry. 9sp/day Warrior will have +3 BAB vs. Fighter's +1 Warrior will have the same number of feats Warrior will have 3d8 hp vs. Fighter's 1d10 In addition, Warrior will probably have a slightly better morale in battle in most cases because he has been tested. Granted, the fighter will improve much more quickly over the long run, but the cost will also increase greatly. -------------------------------- This uses the assumption that PC classes will increase exponentially rather than at a regular pace.
Gedrin 05-25-05, 03:58 PM	I'm not suggesting that you field high level characters. That's impractical. I'm suggesting that you use higher level characters as an industrial base. See, a Wand of Fireballs can be used by any 1st level Adept (I'm presuming you give adepts magic item use) or Wizard. Scrolls are easy to field as well. You could even do minor one shot wonderous items that anyone can use. By using magic items with few/1 charge, you can magnify the firepower of the individual soldier tremendously. Fireball Stone: Single Use, Use Activated, Casts Fireball at 3rd Level (don't need "full power") Cost: 450g The Fireball Stone can be used by anyone, even a level 1 warrior, heck, you could give it to a Commoner if you were desperate. Perfect accuracy at a range of 520 feet (longbow is at -8 at this range). Disable rate near 100% against regular soldiers and it is a fearsome weapon. Vastly more effective against "special troops". Deployable, at range, against enemy troops, while your own troops are adjacent. The cost to create the Fireball Stone is less that the cost to raise 5 soldiers. The Fireball Stone can be created and is ready to deploy in 1 day. The Fireball Stone has no requirements for food, water, shelter, or pay. It is easily transported and concealed, making it difficult for the enemy to target. You don't put your wizards on the line if you can avoid it. Use them to magnify the firepower of your troops, and fund them in such a way that they can make good use of their non enchanting time to advance their power and studdies. Give a bit of attention to some permanent items as well. Like a tent that casts Cure Light Wounds up to once a round. It's a bit costly at 1,800g (command word activated), but that's what you're paying to raise 10 Med Infantry, and this item would let you retain soldiers at a greater rate. Likely a cost saver in the long run. If you have a choice between fielding a set piece army of 166 men, and a force of 156 men with 10 fireballs and a magic healing tent, I think you'd want to go with the army that will decimate the enemy before melee even starts, and can get all healed up in 15 minutes. Drop that one unit of 10 Med Cavalry and you can afford the Fireball Stones, the Medic Tent, and you've got cash left over to field 20 Sleep Grenades (single use, use activated, Sleep at Level 1) and still buy beer for the troops after their victory. It takes 30 days to replenish the expended magic and about 5,500g (assuming that it all got used), but it costs nothing to have this stuff at the ready. Horses and Men want pay, food, and shelter to stick around, but you can reduce the cost of keeping your arming standing by using higher initial investment. I'm guessing that the savings from being able to defeat your foes more quickly, and retain your own forces would wind up making this style of army a money saver. You may say the XP cost to the wizards is an issue, but if you can't find a 5th level wizard capable of earning 250xp on his own between major battles, not much that can be done there. As for the goals, obviously you don't want to start a set peice battle against hill giants. Your troops wouldn't survive to be able to get to the tent. You need mobility against them, so I think it's an advantage to develop a high firepower skirmisher tactic. Regarding taking a castle, send commandos (PC's) with Cloudkill against the fortifications. Drop it at the top of the gatekeep, and let it settle through the cracks in the hatched and doors. Great area, duration spell, automatically kills everyone 3rd and under, which should make it easier for the army to get inside.
TelinArtho 05-25-05, 04:22 PM	Just a minor point, but you can't make an item have a lower caster level than the minimum to cast the spell. While you may not "need" full power - you must have at least 5th level there. Therefore the cost of a "fire grenade" would be in the order of 750gp not 450gp. Having a large number of one-shot items at my disposal may not be entirely a bad thing, but at the same time, upkeeping it is a little difficult. If I am entering a battle and expend my 50+ fire grenades in the first few rounds, only to see that the opponents have survived and are now charging - I better be ready for it. To keep a large number of wizards "on staff" for item creation, would surely make a bigger dent in my weekly/monthly costs than many more soldiers on the front line. If they are not making items for me, I'd either need to keep them on retainer (for a cost) or let them do their own thing (which means they may not be available when I need them). Also, making use of this kind of tactic will only work for so long. Counterspelling a fireball is pretty easy if your opponent knows it is coming (and multiple can be countered if the defense has a number of defensive casters). Maybe the tactic would work for my first battle, but it would quickly be twarted by opponents making judicious use of endure elements/resist elements. I would also build the "fire grenade" against the established Necklace of Fireballs - which suffers poorly when subjected to fireball attacks itself. While my army might do quite well tossing fireballs at the enemy, the enemy will be able to do much better throwing one at my army... Back to the subject of money, while a fire grenade would be the equivalent of 1 medium cavalry in initial cost, the cavalry has a better expectation long term. When compared to light infantry (where I could get ~15 for the price of one grenade), the expectation is that much greater. In terms of wands, no the adept wouldn't be able to use it (since Fireball is not on the adept's spell list). If you are talking about use magic device, in 3.0 only rogues have this skill. Like I said, these items have their place, but I think the army itself is a more sound option.
TelinArtho 05-25-05, 04:28 PM	One other thing - assuming the grenades are based off of the necklace of fireballs - the range would probably be equivalent as well - therefore - 70ft...
Gedrin 05-25-05, 05:31 PM	Minimum Level: I thought there was some rule about the level requirement being the minimum to cast, but I couldn't find it in the SRD. The numbers in terms of money are still pretty good. Plus, at 5D6, you take out more than the Level 1 guys. What if they live? I'm not sure how your opponents, if they're level 1 warriors, are going to survive 5D6 damage. It's not about killing the commanders, though 5D6 hurts the higher level guys too, it's about whiping their army off the field. What if they put magic on the battlefield? Counterspelling fireball is easy, and I'd be happy to let their battle wizard spend his time working against the 1st level Warrior's fireball device. Besides, if we've got wizards on the field, they're likely pointed at each other countering the 9D6 fireballs and Freezing Spheres they're chucking around. Given that the enemy wizard can only counter one fireball a round, and you'd be fielding the option of hurling many fireballs at once, you'd still be at the advantage. Resist/Protection spells aren't an option for protecting 100 soldiers, and if someone attempted this, they'd need a Protection item that would cast similar to the healing tent, and the duration is still a problem. Sure the wizard can protect himself from the fireballs, and he'd have to take the precaution, but again, I'm happy to have the enemy battle wizard casting spells specifcally to protect himself from the 1st Level Warriors. While he's doing that, one of the other 1st Level warriors is blowing up a unit, or my wizard is killing him. They're dangerous weapons to cary: Fireballs blowing up your own fire grenades is irrelivant. These Warriors have 8HP. Dropping a single 5d6 fireball will kill them all. They won't be any deader from 10D6. Also, if your enemy is fielding these sorts of weapons and you're not, you're FUBAR'ed. Similar logic works that bullets could detonate the gunpowder, so we won't cary gunpowder. Cost. Yes, soldiers are cheaper than big weapons. But you can toast 10 soldiers (if they're in tight formation, say phalanx, this is conservative), at the time of battle, with a fireball...from 600 feet away. You can't garauntee 10 enemy casualties before melee starts with 15 light infantry. Either way, winning is cheaper than loosing. Wands. Wands are really a bit expensive to put near the front. They're more an artillery piece and it would be fine to have a 1st Level Wizard using them from behind the lines. I'd recomend experimenting with this. Put the 166 man army against the 156 man army with 10 fireballs, 20 sleep grenades and a healing tent. I think you'll find the outcome massively lopsided, particularly if you pay attention to units that break when they loose large chunks from the center of their formation. Admittedly, I do make the assumption that you'll have a 5th level or higher wizard working for you in some manner, but I'm guessing that most nobles/warlords have these sorts of folks in their employ. I'm just astounded that governments haven't utilized wizards as industrial resources. I'm not suggesting that your foes won't adapt. I'm simply suggesting that if I were to adapt to the army you presented, and I had access to D&D magic, I'd go with fireballs, sleep grenades and magical healing on tap. If you are leaning away from using magic as a large part of your army, just remember all your thoughts about how your enemies will adapt. You assume that your enemies have the resources to adapt to an army with integrated magic. If this is true, they have the resources to field an army with integrated magic also, and your choice not to field such an army means they're chucking fireballs/sleep at you and you're just taking it. If the assumption is incorrect, they can't counter such an army and you would be able to triumph easily. If a fireball can take out 10 level 1's at a range of 600 feet, and I field 10 of them... And I field 20 sleep grenades that are reliable for about 2 men each, at a range of 100 feet... I'm betting that by the time we reach melee, an enemy with 200 troops has surrendered.
TelinArtho 05-26-05, 12:57 PM	Don't forget that I suggested using the range of the Necklace as well - that is - 70ft range - which is a big difference from 600ft. For a grenade (which is thrown - and not perfectly accurate) I would expect the price to be much higher to have that kind of range. As a DM (which for this campaign I'm not - but from my experience) - to price a fire grenade with a 600ft range with no attack roll for accuracy would be much higher than 750gp. As far as my opponents - they are not likely to be wielding much magic and are mostly comprised of hill giants (some with levels I would imagine). So yes - 5d6 is not that much in comparison. Also, in terms of how many can be hit with a single fireball would be a bit of a discussion too. A 20ft radius spread is only 8 squares by 8 squares - 64 total. Unless the army is packed in rows - your best expectation is probably 16 - and after the first one hits - you can very well expect the units will spread out significantly. In a giant army - your best expectation is probably 1/4 of this - or 4. Suddenly, it really isn't that much of a big deal. Add to that that a charging giant can reach you from 70ft out and I'd much rather set up my unit to receive them and while we were closing before hand - shooting them chock full of arrows. Like I said - magic is not out of the question, but it will not be a major factor on either side. If I knew my opponent would employ massive damage spells I would make sure I had defence measures set up (in terms of readied counterspells and potions of resistance) and I would target the spellcasters. Even at 700ft, an efficient longbowmen unit can waste a small unit of mages. Heck, my army is likely to have ballista trained in on them... As to the tent - I would not allow such a broken item in my campaign and would never suggest it in someone else's. Something that can cast Cure Light Wounds up to 1/round is very broken, especially when you compare it to, say, a wand of CLW which is "only" 750gp (50 charges total)- compared to your 1800gp (equivalent to 100+charges/DAY). Alright - so lets do a bit of a comparison: 1. 166 man army - Knight, 1 lvl 5 fighter, 2374gp initial, hp 42, AC 20, +9 hit, 1d8+5 dmg (+11, 3d8+15 w/charge), S 16, D 10, C 14 Hvy. Cavalry, 5 lvl 2 fighters, 4120gp initial, hp 19, AC 18, +5 hit, 1d8+2 (+7, 2d8+4 w/charge), S 15 D 10, C 14 Hvy. Cavalry, 4 lvl 3 warriors, 3296gp initial, hp 16, AC 18, +4 hit, 1d8+2 (+6, 2d8+4 w/charge), S 15 D 10, C 14 Med. Cavalry, 10 lvl 1 warriors, 7740gp initial, hp 10, AC 17, +3 hit, 1d8+2 (+5, 2d8+4 w/charge), S 15 D 10, C 14 Lgt. Cavalry, 10 lvl 1 warriors, 3490gp initial, hp 8, AC 16, +3 hit, 1d8+2 (+5, 2d8+4 w/charge) or +3 hit, 1d6, 60ft range incr, S 15, D 14, C 10 30 horses (cost included above) Infantry Leader, 1 lvl 5 fighter,1552gp initial, hp 42, AC 21, +9 hit, 1d8+5, S 16, D 12, C 14 Hvy. Infantry, 5 lvl 3 fighters, 1525gp initial, hp 27, AC 17, +6 hit, 1d8+2 (or +6, 2d10+4 w/ receiving charge), S 15, D 10, C 14 Hvy. Infantry, 5 lvl 3 warriors, 1525gp initial, hp 23, AC 17, +6 hit, 1d8+2 (or +6, 2d10+4 w/ receiving charge), S 15, D 10, C 14 Med. Infantry, 10 lvl 2 warriors, 1050gp initial, hp 14, AC 15, +5 hit, 1d8+2 (or +4, 2d10+4 w/ receiving charge), S 15, D 10, C 14 Med. Infantry, 20 lvl 1 warriors, 2100gp initial, hp 10, AC 15, +4 hit, 1d8+2 (or +3, 2d10+4 w/ receiving charge), S 15, D 10, C 14 Lgt. Infantry, 50 lvl 1 warriors, 2350gp initial, hp 8, AC 14, +4 hit, 1d8+2 (or +3, 2d10+4 w/ receiving charge), S 15, D 14, C 10 Longbowmen, 10 lvl 2 warriors, 1100gp initial, hp 16, AC 14, +4 hit, 1d8, 100ft range incr, S 12, D 15, C 14 Longbowmen, 30 lvl 1 warriors, 3300gp initial, hp 10, AC 14, +3 hit, 1d8, 100ft range incr, S 12, D 15, C 14 Medic, 5 lvl 1 adepts, 325gp initial (non combatant) Totals: 166 units (30 horses) 35,847gp initial outlay 2. Your army - with 10 fire grenades (at 750gp each) and 20 sleep grenades (at 50gp each, 70ft range as well). You start off with 7500gp in fire grenades and 1000gp in sleep grenades. Assuming you don't want to complete deplete your army, you could drop the knight and infantry leader (who is controlling morale...?) and the 5 Hvy Infantry warriors and some of the cavalry: Hvy. Cavalry, 5 lvl 2 fighters, 4120gp initial, hp 19, AC 18, +5 hit, 1d8+2 (+7, 2d8+4 w/charge), S 15 D 10, C 14 Med. Cavalry, 10 lvl 1 warriors, 7740gp initial, hp 10, AC 17, +3 hit, 1d8+2 (+5, 2d8+4 w/charge), S 15 D 10, C 14 Lgt. Cavalry, 10 lvl 1 warriors, 3490gp initial, hp 8, AC 16, +3 hit, 1d8+2 (+5, 2d8+4 w/charge) or +3 hit, 1d6, 60ft range incr, S 15, D 14, C 10 30 horses (cost included above) Hvy. Infantry, 5 lvl 3 fighters, 1525gp initial, hp 27, AC 17, +6 hit, 1d8+2 (or +6, 2d10+4 w/ receiving charge), S 15, D 10, C 14 Med. Infantry, 10 lvl 2 warriors, 1050gp initial, hp 14, AC 15, +5 hit, 1d8+2 (or +4, 2d10+4 w/ receiving charge), S 15, D 10, C 14 Med. Infantry, 20 lvl 1 warriors, 2100gp initial, hp 10, AC 15, +4 hit, 1d8+2 (or +3, 2d10+4 w/ receiving charge), S 15, D 10, C 14 Lgt. Infantry, 50 lvl 1 warriors, 2350gp initial, hp 8, AC 14, +4 hit, 1d8+2 (or +3, 2d10+4 w/ receiving charge), S 15, D 14, C 10 Longbowmen, 10 lvl 2 warriors, 1100gp initial, hp 16, AC 14, +4 hit, 1d8, 100ft range incr, S 12, D 15, C 14 Longbowmen, 30 lvl 1 warriors, 3300gp initial, hp 10, AC 14, +3 hit, 1d8, 100ft range incr, S 12, D 15, C 14 Medic, 5 lvl 1 adepts, 325gp initial (non combatant) 7500gp in Fire grenades (10) 1000gp in Sleep grenades (20) Totals: 155 units (25 horses) 35,600gp initial outlay By adding in the grenades, you've decresed your overall armor class by quite a bit (from 15.3 to 15) and your avg. hit points (from 11.7 to 10.5) You get 10 attacks at 70ft out that will do (at best) 5d6 dmg to 16 people each. If you were able to position them perfectly, you'd be able to hit each unit of mine once (minus the medics), dealing 14 dmg on average (DC 14 save, +1 avg ref save, 40% chance of taking 1/2 damage). The flaw here is that you have to keep the grenades in the closest ranks, and these are probably the most likely to be targetted by the archers. At a 300+t starting range versus your best ac (18), the longbowmen will deal 7.4 dmg/rnd. At 2-300ft, 17.3 dmg/rnd; at 1-200ft, 32.2 dmg/rnd; at less than 100ft, 47.0 dmg/rnd. Against your average ac (15), this increases to 9.9dmg/round at up to 500ft; 24.75dmg/rnd from 3-400ft, 39.6dmg/rnd from 2-300ft, 54.45dmg/rnd from 1-200ft and 69.3dmg/rnd at less than 100ft. If the battle started at 500ft out, and the opposing forces advance each at a rate of 40ft (the slowest unit), the first round would be at 500ft, the second at 460ft (420ft), third at 420ft (340ft), etc until the combatants are 100ft away from each other after round 6. There are 3 rounds between 4-500ft (29.7 damage), 2 rounds between 3-400ft (49.5 damage), 1 rounds between 2-300ft up to the same distance (39.6 damage). For 118.8 damage, this could take out from 5-12 of your men before they have closed. With 85 infantry and 10 of them holding fire grenades, this means 0-2 of them could be down by that point. For the twenty holding sleep grenades, from 1-4 are down. Each round as well, the light cavalry would be shooting and doing a single move to keep up with the rest. On the first through fourth rounds, they'd do 1.9 dmg/rnd (7.6 total); 5.8 dmg on the fifth; and 9.6 dmg on the sixth. They deal 23 damage total. This will take down another 2 of your group. On the other side, your archers would be shooting at me, again, doing about the same damage (slightly worse, but we'll discount that for now). 5-10 of my soldiers are down. Your light cavalry also deal about 23 dmg, and take down an additional 1-2 of my units. And we're at 100ft apart with the archers at 300ft from the opposing unit's front line. At this point there are a number of things that could happen, depending on initiative: 1. The scenario assumes the archers (and light cavalry) have already fired at the beginning of the sixth round (when the opposing forces started at 100ft from each other). 2. If my unit has initiative, the infantry can move in by one move and toss one javelin each (at 80ft, -4 hit) for 144.4 damage total. This would knock down another 10-14 of your men - meaning there are 21-24 of your infantry already down. This would also mean that anywhere from 0 to all ten of your fire grenades are down, with the average at 3. 3. Your unit could then move forward and toss your grenades at 60ft out. Assuming that on average, only 7 of them can be thrown and at best you can hit 16 people with each, you deal 14 damage to 102 persons. This will knock most of the lgt. infantry down (with about 1/2 of them at 0, the rest at -8). It will knock down about half of the medium infantry (lvl 1) (at -4, the rest will be at 2hp). It will knock down about half of the med. infantry (lvl 2) (at 0, the rest will be at 6hp). It will not knock down any of the hvy infantry. In terms of cavalry, the same goes for all three levels (lgt, med and hvy). In total, this will knock out most of the lighter troops and will take down up to around 75 of my troops. You could also toss in your sleep grenades, but they would be very ineffectual (because of the damage from the fireballs, no one would have stayed asleep). If they had held until after the fireballs, then the troops are very spread out - so it is unlikely you'd get more than 1-2 of them in each area of effect. So it would seem from this simulation that your army works better than mine right? The truth is - in this simulation you did. However, with a counterspell or two, your damage capacity reduces significantly. With a simple application of Endure Element potions (at 50gp/person for all light, med, hvy troops, ~7kgp) your efforts to destroy swaths of my troops has been thwarted (virtually everyone will survive). Also, as the experience level of the troops increases, this tactic becomes less and less usable. Picture that 1/4 of your infantry is already down and only 1/10 of mine is. Add to that the fact that you don't have any significant leaders - your morale is probably hurting a bit more than mine (debatable of course).
TelinArtho 05-26-05, 01:57 PM	To continue the above logic, this situation gets really out of hand in a very short term. In each battle, you expend 10 fire grenades and half of your sleep grenades (8000gp value). You lose 10% of your army in the battle (lower losses because they are able to take out more people quickly right before they enter melee). If you are an army without these items, you might need to replace, say, 50% of your army (a true pyrrhic victory). Let's compare: 1. In your situation, regardless of your losses, you have 8000gp to recover for, and, probably, 10-30 days of work (assuming up to 3 wizards working for you). 2. You are able to keep most of the equipment of those you lose, but 10% of it is used up (either from being damaged or otherwise unusable). 10% of your total army (in people) needs to be replaced and 10% of the equipment you already have needs to be replaced entirely. Assuming that 5% of the original cost could be used to rehire, you are looking at an additional 4065gp. 3. Your total is somewhere around 12000gp/battle. In my case, where I lose 50% of my force (80 people) and need to replace 10% of that equipment, and 5% of the original cost will go to rehiring people, I'm looking at 5377gp. Since I don't need to recreate your costly magic items, I'm able to pocket that extra 7000gp as profit... Your argument about having the wizards make sure they can earn 250xp/battle really isn't the issue then. If you can't maintain a steady income of even 5000gp above what I would need, you will quickly find yourself broke. From my position, I am starting with about 50,000gp to work with. If I spend 35,000gp on the army, and leave the 15,000gp for upkeep and replacement costs after battle, I've got enough money to at least support the army for a while (not a long while, but much longer than you would after 2 fights...). This returns to the cost of using PC classes in armies - they are simply cost prohibitive. As such, in my own examples, I probably won't really make use of them.
Gedrin 05-26-05, 02:13 PM	I totally agree that a 750gp, single use, short range, inaccurate weapon is a waste. But, that's not the weapon I described. If I make a one shot wonderous item that's use activated and casts a 3rd level spell at 5th level, it costs 750gp. If you want to rearange the rules to make it not work...well, it won't work. Reduce the range to 1/9th, make it inaccurate... You've basically said that the item isn't a fireball spell, it's a grenade like weapon with a thrown range. I wouldn't want to include that at a cost of 750g either. I wouldn't want a longbow with a 10 foot range and a 50% miss chance either. Using your ruleset, it wouldn't work. Using a ruleset that says it's got a 600' range, and using a conservative number of 10 kills per fireball, breaks a mundane army of 200 before melee starts. But yes, if you want to say the weapon works in a way other than what the rules say, sure. I'm willing to agree that the rules are broken in regard to some of the things you could do with magic item creation, but right now, those are the rule I assume to be in use. Given that the SRD rules are not the ones being used, yes, I agree that soldiers are a better bargain than fireballs. Seriously, if you're going to change the rules and argue that it won't work I'd have to agree. If I could totally change the rules the mundane army uses, it won't work either. Looking at different rulesets, we wind up looking at different worlds.
TelinArtho 05-26-05, 02:45 PM	As to the matter of cost of magic items - I'm trying to approach this in terms of what is reasonable and allowable. Originally, when I thought the necklace of fireballs was my only starting point, I was of the opinion that the fire grenades were unreasonable (because the necklace is very different from the spell). The healing tent however, I simply cannot justify as a "reasonable" item with unlimited uses per day for that price. Since it didn't figure very much into your argument anyway - I assume you are fine with dropping it from the discussion. If not - I guess we can just agree to disagree on that point. Actually, I did find another example to work with - the Javelin of Lightning. This is pretty similar in essence to the Fire grenade - and so - I am willing to go about rewriting this scenario as it was originally designed - that is with a range of 600ft and damage of 5d6 with a save DC of 14. And in this case, yes, it would be exceptionally devastating. It wouldn't change the fact that it is horribly expensive - but when we're looking at it from such a distance it begs a question - why use the fire grenades when you could use regular fireballs from either a regular group of spellcasters or even a single caster with a wand. The cost of the wand would be 11,250gp for 50 charges (as opposed to 15 grenades for the same price). Presumably the opposing army would be equally disenheartened by one fireball per round (with no end in sight) as opposed to one round where you decimate 90% of the army in one round, and this would keep your costs down (by not using excess fireballs where they aren't needed and because they are 1/3 the price pretty much as it is). Returning this argument to the cost of the army overall and using an exponential scale for PC classes, having a 5th level wizard on staff is 25gp/day plus the cost of item creation. You won't be able to engage in battles more often than 2-3/2 weeks (assuming that a wand would be effectively used up in 2-3 encounters and that the wizard would need some downtime to create the wand (12 days) after the wand is used up.). Each wizard (assuming 5th lvl) then is going to be costing you in the order of 175gp/week or in my most recent example, about 1/10th of the weekly upkeep. Add in the necessary costs to create the items, at 11kgp/wand - and he'll be a nice but costly addition to the army. However, I am of the opinion that he may be more vital than I had originally estimated. I am going back to the drawing board on this. Thanks everyone for their counterpoint - Gedrin especially.
Gedrin 05-26-05, 03:20 PM	The main reason to use some sort of fireball item is dispersion. If all your fireballs are in one place/person, you create an obvious priority target for your enemy. It is a cost saver to go with a wand, or better yet, straight spells (free!), but you also expose a valuable asset to enemy fire. Low level wizards aren't nearly as valuable as the 5th level variety, but they lack the needed defenses as well. It would be my preference to use a wizard for versatility and to oppose the enemy wizards. The cost argument is very powerful, but it might be a better idea to use some sort of Use Activated item instead of the wand. That way when the arrows make it through finally, you've lost a 1st Level Expert (artillerist), and another 1st Level Expert takes his place quickly, rather than having a dead Wizard, and no spare wizards to start firing again. The second major advantage to having dispersed items is that it is much harder to counter them. Two wizards, of equal level, pretty much negate each other. Cast, counter, cast, counter...there are limits, sure, but why deal with it? One wizard can't counter two spells around, and you have this option with dispersed spell items. If I had the resources, I would combine these aproaches, placing a few powerful (fireball) one-shot items through the ranks, low cost one-shots fairly commonly (sleep), and a more economical and longer lasting weapon (wand type item) in a protected area. You wouldn't want something as valuable as a wand or perpetual fireball chucker near the front. Just too valuable for it. Truth be told, as a squad level weapon, the Sleep spell is likely more effective than Fireball for close combat. Presuming that some sort of bombardment has dispersed the enemy, sleep can be sent for 50gp at 100' range, disabling an about of 2 foes per weapon (25g per disable compared to 75g for fireball). Fireball Stones are better as dispersed weapons to get around caster standoffs or if you can't be sure you'll be able to take out the sleeping foes. For disabling melee combatants, I'd go with sleep. Also, you get better battlefield loot with sleep spells than fireball. As for the cost of the wizard, you need him on staff anyway. Your lands/orginization/party/army needs some sort of magical expert available. Giving him enchanting tasks to handle when he's not providing his other expertise seems only reasonable. Also, when you pay the 250gp a week for your wizard, you don't just get a magic factory. You get somoene with lots of Knowledge Arcana, Spellcraft, maybe History, some Languages... Then there's the "other stuff". He's got more spells than just fireball. Clairvoyance/audiance (spy sat), Message (instant radio), Monster Summoning (scouts and special combat tasks like droping flaming oil on enemy supplies) and Invisibility (spies, assassins) are all force multipliers, not to mention things like Dispel Magic and the ability to use scrolls and other wizardish items that are found. And all this is available for just a 5th level wizard. I would provide working wizards time and a budget for research as well. The XP's they're loosing to the enchantment can hurt if you don't give them tools to recover the power (study being a classical way of mages growing in power). If you were thinking about picking up more than one caster, I would find a Sorc with the right spells for the battlefield, and find a Wizard to do your work in the rear. The wiz can provide the Sorc scrolls and items to give greater diversity. I wouldn't allow the healing tent into my game either, but there are a lot of items like that. Fabricate is a pretty wrong spell if made into a 1/round item too.
TelinArtho 05-26-05, 03:49 PM	The more we delve into this - we are getting more and more into a specialized unit - the spellcaster unit... which is probably a small numbered unit (compared to the larger army), but is also a significant portion of the overall upkeep (from say 5% up to 50+%). I would include clerics as well in this group (as bless is a wonderful mass use spell...). It is true about exposing a 1st level expert vs. a 5th level wizard as the true benefit of using a use-activated item. According to the guidelines in the SRD, a 50-charge Use activated item of fireball would be 15,000gp - not much more than a regular wand - but would be usable by anyone you chose to give it to (or whomever picks it up after that person falls...). I'm not sure I'm happy with that price in comparison - but again, without a comparative value - that's what I've got. Anyway, thanks for helping me through getting rid of the blinders... /d
TelinArtho 05-26-05, 05:25 PM	By the way Gedrin - I actually did a fair amount of analysis regarding the usefullness of spells in mass combats. For wizards specifically, take a look at post 15 and 20 in this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=356448 The selection of long range spells is pretty minimal (only 2 up to level 5 - fireball and acid arrow). Just figured I would mention it. /d